I've been laid up sick all day watching the news unfold.
Reading reddit and comments on reg. news sites like CNN, NPR, and every 2nd post is some insane nazi shit.
Not surprising, I know - it's the internet - but for weeks there's been this non-stop whine of Black people are racist/white people are victims thing going on that is fucking baffling. I really don't get it. Did I miss the great white holocaust of 2012? :dead: :eyeroll:
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
day said:
I've been laid up sick all day watching the news unfold.
Reading reddit and comments on reg. news sites like CNN, NPR, and every 2nd post is some insane nazi shit.
Not surprising, I know - it's the internet - but for weeks there's been this non-stop whine of Black people are racist/white people are victims thing going on that is fucking baffling. I really don't get it. Did I miss the great white holocaust of 2012? :dead: :eyeroll:
I know exactly what you speak of. I've been floored by the white reaction to yet another instance of an Austin cop killing a black dude on the Eastside last week. Like really, these damn fools somehow think they have license to say any old crazy, racist shit. Ugh!!!
Even if Zims gets convicted, this doesn't really feel like a victory or justice of any kind. What, with how much sheer human energy and unheard of public pressure it took just get a damn arrest, and similar -almost weekly- stories of unarmed black & brown people being shot dead still getting far less exposure.
The correct process is underway. It shouldn't take a federal investigation, presidential proclamations, and massive public pressure to get police and prosecutors to do their jobs, but it is progress towards justice to get the correct process underway.
ok. thank heavens the law enforcement officials are keeping track of him. so far in this case they have inspired me with booming confidence. wouldnt be surprised if they smuggled him into cuba or some shit
Well, if you followed the story, law enforcement wanted to arrest him and charge him with murder on the spot.
But decided against it.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
button said:
Even if Zims gets convicted, this doesn't really feel like a victory or justice of any kind.
Hey Button and others,
I concur with these sentiments. The issue that the Trayvon Martin case raises for me is the endemic lack of empathy that exists in America with regard to race relations. There is a large segment of our country that wishes to hide behind a concept called 'belief in a just world.' Essentially, people wish to avoid the feeling of vulnerability evoked when bad things befall seemingly innocent people. The core perception is that people get what they deserve, and it's the kind of logic that leads individuals to villify rape victims, as an example. The thought is "Surely, she must have done something to cause her to get raped." However, it is possible, and true by and large, that she was innocently going about her business, and some bad man just simply grabbed and attacked her without any provocation.
Applying 'belief in a just world' to the Trayvon Martin case, Zimmerman's supporters probably have it in their minds that Martin must have done something to deserve being shot and killed. Negative stereotyping enters the picture in ths particular instance because, as we know, 'Black guys are violent', even when they're unarmed teenagers with a bag of Skittles and a bottle of ice tea. This belief system also allows them to believe, despite how inconceivable it is, that a scrawny teenager somehow beat up a burly, grown-ass man armed with a gun! My angst with this case is some people's lack of awareness that Black men indeed can be stopped by cops (or others), harassed, assaulted, and potentially, killed for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The Frank Jude case in Milwaukee certainly illustrates the validity of this notion Frank Jude Beating. Speaking of Milwaukee, while living there, I was questioned by a Wauwatosa (a western suburb of the city) police officer merely because I asked why so many police cars were in our gated apartment complex. I was told that "A bank robbery had been committed by some articulate, Black guy kind of like me" and asked, "Where was I tonight?" I told the officer that I had just come home from WORK, teaching an evening class at the B-school (in front of 45 students, mind you). Upon showing the officer my business card, complete with name, institution, credential, job title and everything, I was asked assertively to produce some ID. The officer ran check on me before I was released! What? Had I been belligerent or assertive in some way, I likely would have caught a beatdown (or got shot because I'm a big mofo) despite having done nothing. So, I became a suspected felon in a matter of minutes, all because of being a concerned citizen.
Thus, suffice it to say, we don't live in a just world!!! Innocent people get mistreated all the time, plain and simple, and this Black 'Skin I'm In" sure doesn't help the matter. I won't even go into how my wife, on her way to work (again, in Milwaukee), was stopped by 3 police officers at gunpoint, in front of the B-school where I taught, for 'Driving While Black.' Shit, I'm glad she didn't sneeze!
ok. thank heavens the law enforcement officials are keeping track of him. so far in this case they have inspired me with booming confidence. wouldnt be surprised if they smuggled him into cuba or some shit
Well, if you followed the story, law enforcement wanted to arrest him and charge him with murder on the spot.
But decided against it.
no. the lead investigator was big-footed by the state attorney, who subsequently recused himself from the file.
i don't get how the arrest/charge is meaningless or hollow. as a certain somebody once said "the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice".
There is no question in my mind that GZ should have been arrested on the spot(Side note: I work with a guy named George Zimmerman who is an outspoken gun owner. He's now thinking about changing his name)
The way the case has been presented in the media any clear thinking person would come to the conclusion that this act was purposeful and likely pre-meditated.
Hearing Trayvon's Mother's most recent comments makes me think that she is either an amazingly forgiving person, has rationalized the incident in order to get past it emotionally or knows more details than the general public*.
Our Justice System does not always work the way we wished it did(See Floridian Casey Anthony amongst many) but it's better than most and could certainly be better.
I think a fair trial and just punishment is the best we can hope for at this point.
"I believe it was an accident. I believe it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back," Fulton said, revealing her opinion about what happened the night her 17-year-old son was shot to death. "I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon."
Fulton said even if Zimmerman is found not guilty, the arrest achieves the goal of their campaign to raise awareness and bring him to justice.
Even if Zims gets convicted, this doesn't really feel like a victory or justice of any kind.
Hey Button and others,
I concur with these sentiments. The issue that the Trayvon Martin case raises for me is the endemic lack of empathy that exists in America with regard to race relations. There is a large segment of our country that wishes to hide behind a concept called 'belief in a just world.' Essentially, people wish to avoid the feeling of vulnerability evoked when bad things befall seemingly innocent people. The core perception is that people get what they deserve, and it's the kind of logic that leads individuals to villify rape victims, as an example. The thought is "Surely, she must have done something to cause her to get raped." However, it is possible, and true by and large, that she was innocently going about her business, and some bad man just simply grabbed and attacked her without any provocation.
Applying 'belief in a just world' to the Trayvon Martin case, Zimmerman's supporters probably have it in their minds that Martin must have done something to deserve being shot and killed. Negative stereotyping enters the picture in ths particular instance because, as we know, 'Black guys are violent', even when they're unarmed teenagers with a bag of Skittles and a bottle of ice tea. This belief system also allows them to believe, despite how inconceivable it is, that a scrawny teenager somehow beat up a burly, grown-ass man armed with a gun! My angst with this case is some people's lack of awareness that Black men indeed can be stopped by cops (or others), harassed, assaulted, and potentially, killed for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The Frank Jude case in Milwaukee certainly illustrates the validity of this notion Frank Jude Beating. Speaking of Milwaukee, while living there, I was questioned by a Wauwatosa (a western suburb of the city) police officer merely because I asked why so many police cars were in our gated apartment complex. I was told that "A bank robbery had been committed by some articulate, Black guy kind of like me" and asked, "Where was I tonight?" I told the officer that I had just come home from WORK, teaching an evening class at the B-school (in front of 45 students, mind you). Upon showing the officer my business card, complete with name, institution, credential, job title and everything, I was asked assertively to produce some ID. The officer ran check on me before I was released! What? Had I been belligerent or assertive in some way, I likely would have caught a beatdown (or got shot because I'm a big mofo) despite having done nothing. So, I became a suspected felon in a matter of minutes, all because of being a concerned citizen.
Thus, suffice it to say, we don't live in a just world!!! Innocent people get mistreated all the time, plain and simple, and this Black 'Skin I'm In" sure doesn't help the matter. I won't even go into how my wife, on her way to work (again, in Milwaukee), was stopped by 3 police officers at gunpoint, in front of the B-school where I taught, for 'Driving While Black.' Shit, I'm glad she didn't sneeze!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
This really sums it all up. Made the mistake of looking at the online CNN coverage of the arrest last night and the comments below the piece mirrored exactly what you've said. Apparently educated (at least articulate) people grasping for all sorts of reasons why Zimmerman had to do what he did. The connections they make are so tenuous and the suppositions so flimsy that if it wasn't so sick it would almost be funny. At least one one comment on there even suggesting that Martin's screams were him mocking Zimmerman's supposed screams earlier. I know CNN isn't exactly libertarian but the hate coming off that page was shameful.
the shitty thing is the police are not on trial as well...in fact the bungling of the case by police works totally in George's favor. No evidence was collected...so the defense can argue that is not the fault of George and since there is no physical evidence in custody by the police, then that means there is no evidence to help conivct. Also, I am sure the defense will play the "if George was hunting down someone to kill them, then why did he call 911?" The combination of a lack of physical evidence and the fact he called 911 will play heavily in George's favor..which sucks..justice will be at a disadvantage due to the police.
imagine if the jury decides in zimmerman's favor (can't wait for the juryduty screening on this one) in a purely pragmatic response
and then he is found not guilty
he will probably make the horrendous move from villain to hero in many peoples view
to me this is the social equivalent of betoying the medal of honor to an abugraib picture snapper
Reading reddit and comments on reg. news sites like CNN, NPR, and every 2nd post is some insane nazi shit. Not surprising, I know - it's the internet - but for weeks there's been this non-stop whine of Black people are racist/white people are victims thing going on that is fucking baffling. I really don't get it.
Small minded, uneducated reactionaries with hysterical persecution complexes...the types who think that, for example, the Supreme Court upholding seperation of church and state is the equivalent to Nero throwing Christians to the lions or that limiting access to unnecessarily powerful weaponry is some government plot to prevent citizens from "protecting themselves". They really give the far-left anarchist people a run for their money in the tin-foil hat department.
I am thinking two things....that this won't make it to trial and if it does with a not guilty decision, things will get very ugly.
I really wonder if they should have brought Manslaughter charges instead of Murder2. This is going to be much harder to prove.
The jury has the option to go with Manslaughter under the Special Prosecutor's charges.
Exactly. 2nd Degree is the highest possible charge (since Grand Jury got the boot) so I am happy they have the option to convict for the maximum possible sentence.
the shitty thing is the police are not on trial as well...in fact the bungling of the case by police works totally in George's favor. No evidence was collected...so the defense can argue that is not the fault of George and since there is no physical evidence in custody by the police, then that means there is no evidence to help conivct. Also, I am sure the defense will play the "if George was hunting down someone to kill them, then why did he call 911?" The combination of a lack of physical evidence and the fact he called 911 will play heavily in George's favor..which sucks..justice will be at a disadvantage due to the police.
Incorrect. The police do have physical evidence: At least one round removed from Trayvon Martin's body. They know Zimmerman was there. The State can get his gun to do a ballistics check by subpoena. Once that comes back as a match, that's all the physical evidence they need, IMO. It''s up to Zimmerman's lawyer to prove an affirmative defense, not the other way around.
I'm not a lawyer, I just thought that is what this meant:
776.032???Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.???
(1)???A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term ???criminal prosecution??? includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2)???A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3)???The court shall award reasonable attorney???s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
So in that sense, couldn't the Judge deem him immune?
And if so, man - compensation for loss of income?? damn son.
Zimmerman will probably get off if this case goes to trial. There are contested eye witness accounts of what happened. Probably too much reasonable doubt to get a conviction. The case will have to go to a civil court where the family can sue Zimmerman to win.
Although not a Florida attorney, or one who specializes in criminal law, I would think that the pre-trial hearing discussed in that article (related to the stand your ground defense, not the one about bail) will not end the case, no matter how poor the evidence is for the prosecution. It seems to me that if the prosecutor could prove (at that hearing) that a jury MAY find that the stand your ground defense is inapplicable (based on disputed facts) then it has to go to a jury. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that the only way the (potential) stand your ground hearing ends the case is if the UNDISPUTED facts show that he unequivocally meets the standard. The 911 call alone is pretty damaging to Zimmerman. We've got to assume that the special prosecutor is sitting on some evidence that will get her past a dismissal, otherwise she would have passed on the case. This is a career crusher as much as it's a career maker for her.
Zimmerman will probably get off if this case goes to trial. There are contested eye witness accounts of what happened. Probably too much reasonable doubt to get a conviction. The case will have to go to a civil court where the family can sue Zimmerman to win.
You really dont think a jury might find him guilty of manslaughter? What are you talking about?
I'm not a lawyer, I just thought that is what this meant:
776.032???Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.???
(1)???A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term ???criminal prosecution??? includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2)???A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3)???The court shall award reasonable attorney???s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
So in that sense, couldn't the Judge deem him immune?
And if so, man - compensation for loss of income?? damn son.
Ha! Yeah, I guess it could meant that. :rosannerosannadanna:
Zimmerman will probably get off if this case goes to trial. There are contested eye witness accounts of what happened. Probably too much reasonable doubt to get a conviction. The case will have to go to a civil court where the family can sue Zimmerman to win.
Yeah, and then collect nothing. That would be unfortunate, to say the least.
Although not a Florida attorney, or one who specializes in criminal law, I would think that the pre-trial hearing discussed in that article (related to the stand your ground defense, not the one about bail) will not end the case, no matter how poor the evidence is for the prosecution. It seems to me that if the prosecutor could prove (at that hearing) that a jury MAY find that the stand your ground defense is inapplicable (based on disputed facts) then it has to go to a jury. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that the only way the (potential) stand your ground hearing ends the case is if the UNDISPUTED facts show that he unequivocally meets the standard. The 911 call alone is pretty damaging to Zimmerman. We've got to assume that the special prosecutor is sitting on some evidence that will get her past a dismissal, otherwise she would have passed on the case. This is a career crusher as much as it's a career maker for her.
it has to be on at least on par with a summary judgement motion, right?
Comments
Reading reddit and comments on reg. news sites like CNN, NPR, and every 2nd post is some insane nazi shit.
Not surprising, I know - it's the internet - but for weeks there's been this non-stop whine of Black people are racist/white people are victims thing going on that is fucking baffling. I really don't get it. Did I miss the great white holocaust of 2012? :dead: :eyeroll:
I know exactly what you speak of. I've been floored by the white reaction to yet another instance of an Austin cop killing a black dude on the Eastside last week. Like really, these damn fools somehow think they have license to say any old crazy, racist shit. Ugh!!!
Yea, how I feel, too.
But decided against it.
Hey Button and others,
I concur with these sentiments. The issue that the Trayvon Martin case raises for me is the endemic lack of empathy that exists in America with regard to race relations. There is a large segment of our country that wishes to hide behind a concept called 'belief in a just world.' Essentially, people wish to avoid the feeling of vulnerability evoked when bad things befall seemingly innocent people. The core perception is that people get what they deserve, and it's the kind of logic that leads individuals to villify rape victims, as an example. The thought is "Surely, she must have done something to cause her to get raped." However, it is possible, and true by and large, that she was innocently going about her business, and some bad man just simply grabbed and attacked her without any provocation.
Applying 'belief in a just world' to the Trayvon Martin case, Zimmerman's supporters probably have it in their minds that Martin must have done something to deserve being shot and killed. Negative stereotyping enters the picture in ths particular instance because, as we know, 'Black guys are violent', even when they're unarmed teenagers with a bag of Skittles and a bottle of ice tea. This belief system also allows them to believe, despite how inconceivable it is, that a scrawny teenager somehow beat up a burly, grown-ass man armed with a gun! My angst with this case is some people's lack of awareness that Black men indeed can be stopped by cops (or others), harassed, assaulted, and potentially, killed for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The Frank Jude case in Milwaukee certainly illustrates the validity of this notion Frank Jude Beating. Speaking of Milwaukee, while living there, I was questioned by a Wauwatosa (a western suburb of the city) police officer merely because I asked why so many police cars were in our gated apartment complex. I was told that "A bank robbery had been committed by some articulate, Black guy kind of like me" and asked, "Where was I tonight?" I told the officer that I had just come home from WORK, teaching an evening class at the B-school (in front of 45 students, mind you). Upon showing the officer my business card, complete with name, institution, credential, job title and everything, I was asked assertively to produce some ID. The officer ran check on me before I was released! What? Had I been belligerent or assertive in some way, I likely would have caught a beatdown (or got shot because I'm a big mofo) despite having done nothing. So, I became a suspected felon in a matter of minutes, all because of being a concerned citizen.
Thus, suffice it to say, we don't live in a just world!!! Innocent people get mistreated all the time, plain and simple, and this Black 'Skin I'm In" sure doesn't help the matter. I won't even go into how my wife, on her way to work (again, in Milwaukee), was stopped by 3 police officers at gunpoint, in front of the B-school where I taught, for 'Driving While Black.' Shit, I'm glad she didn't sneeze!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
no. the lead investigator was big-footed by the state attorney, who subsequently recused himself from the file.
i don't get how the arrest/charge is meaningless or hollow. as a certain somebody once said "the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice".
The way the case has been presented in the media any clear thinking person would come to the conclusion that this act was purposeful and likely pre-meditated.
Hearing Trayvon's Mother's most recent comments makes me think that she is either an amazingly forgiving person, has rationalized the incident in order to get past it emotionally or knows more details than the general public*.
Our Justice System does not always work the way we wished it did(See Floridian Casey Anthony amongst many) but it's better than most and could certainly be better.
I think a fair trial and just punishment is the best we can hope for at this point.
"I believe it was an accident. I believe it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back," Fulton said, revealing her opinion about what happened the night her 17-year-old son was shot to death. "I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon."
Fulton said even if Zimmerman is found not guilty, the arrest achieves the goal of their campaign to raise awareness and bring him to justice.
This really sums it all up. Made the mistake of looking at the online CNN coverage of the arrest last night and the comments below the piece mirrored exactly what you've said. Apparently educated (at least articulate) people grasping for all sorts of reasons why Zimmerman had to do what he did. The connections they make are so tenuous and the suppositions so flimsy that if it wasn't so sick it would almost be funny. At least one one comment on there even suggesting that Martin's screams were him mocking Zimmerman's supposed screams earlier. I know CNN isn't exactly libertarian but the hate coming off that page was shameful.
imagine if the jury decides in zimmerman's favor (can't wait for the juryduty screening on this one) in a purely pragmatic response
and then he is found not guilty
he will probably make the horrendous move from villain to hero in many peoples view
to me this is the social equivalent of betoying the medal of honor to an abugraib picture snapper
I really wonder if they should have brought Manslaughter charges instead of Murder2. This is going to be much harder to prove.
Small minded, uneducated reactionaries with hysterical persecution complexes...the types who think that, for example, the Supreme Court upholding seperation of church and state is the equivalent to Nero throwing Christians to the lions or that limiting access to unnecessarily powerful weaponry is some government plot to prevent citizens from "protecting themselves". They really give the far-left anarchist people a run for their money in the tin-foil hat department.
It's a complete circle and the far left nuts meet the far right nuts @ 12:00.
Sanity is closer to 6:00
The jury has the option to go with Manslaughter under the Special Prosecutor's charges.
Exactly. 2nd Degree is the highest possible charge (since Grand Jury got the boot) so I am happy they have the option to convict for the maximum possible sentence.
Incorrect. The police do have physical evidence: At least one round removed from Trayvon Martin's body. They know Zimmerman was there. The State can get his gun to do a ballistics check by subpoena. Once that comes back as a match, that's all the physical evidence they need, IMO. It''s up to Zimmerman's lawyer to prove an affirmative defense, not the other way around.
Jury can likely still convict on a lesser charge.
so there's that.
I don't think that's right. SYG is an affirmative defense that has be proved by the party asserting it. It's a question for the jury.
776.032???Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.???
(1)???A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term ???criminal prosecution??? includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2)???A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3)???The court shall award reasonable attorney???s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
So in that sense, couldn't the Judge deem him immune?
And if so, man - compensation for loss of income?? damn son.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/zimmerman-faces-second-degree-murder-charge-in-florida.html
Although not a Florida attorney, or one who specializes in criminal law, I would think that the pre-trial hearing discussed in that article (related to the stand your ground defense, not the one about bail) will not end the case, no matter how poor the evidence is for the prosecution. It seems to me that if the prosecutor could prove (at that hearing) that a jury MAY find that the stand your ground defense is inapplicable (based on disputed facts) then it has to go to a jury. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that the only way the (potential) stand your ground hearing ends the case is if the UNDISPUTED facts show that he unequivocally meets the standard. The 911 call alone is pretty damaging to Zimmerman. We've got to assume that the special prosecutor is sitting on some evidence that will get her past a dismissal, otherwise she would have passed on the case. This is a career crusher as much as it's a career maker for her.
my faith in the system is low.
You really dont think a jury might find him guilty of manslaughter? What are you talking about?
Ha! Yeah, I guess it could meant that. :rosannerosannadanna:
Yeah, and then collect nothing. That would be unfortunate, to say the least.
it has to be on at least on par with a summary judgement motion, right?