Zimmerman will probably get off if this case goes to trial. There are contested eye witness accounts of what happened. Probably too much reasonable doubt to get a conviction. The case will have to go to a civil court where the family can sue Zimmerman to win.
You really dont think a jury might find him guilty of manslaughter? What are you talking about?
If you have conflicting eye witness accounts its going to lead to questions. If there's questions, there's no way all 12 jurors are going to agree on a guilty plea. That will lead to reasonable doubt and him getting off. It has nothing to do with the charges against him.
Zimmerman will probably get off if this case goes to trial. There are contested eye witness accounts of what happened. Probably too much reasonable doubt to get a conviction. The case will have to go to a civil court where the family can sue Zimmerman to win.
Yeah, and then collect nothing. That would be unfortunate, to say the least.
In a civil case you only need a majority of jurors. Much easier to get your case across, and more likely that the family would win a lawsuit against Zimmerman.
Zimmerman will probably get off if this case goes to trial. There are contested eye witness accounts of what happened. Probably too much reasonable doubt to get a conviction. The case will have to go to a civil court where the family can sue Zimmerman to win.
Yeah, and then collect nothing. That would be unfortunate, to say the least.
In a civil case you only need a majority of jurors. Much easier to get your case across, and more likely that the family would win a lawsuit against Zimmerman.
Oh yeah. I know about that. I was referring to the fact that you can't get blood from a turnip. What money could Zimmerman possibly have?
I have no idea what kind of assets he has but you could probably bankrupt his ass if he was found culpable in a civil case.
I guarantee there will not be a civil case. OJ had money but his biggest asset (his nfl pension) was protected. The goldman family got an 8 figure verdict but collected less than half a mil - (which is probably less than what they paid their attorneys). Which is the second reason why there will be no civil case - the goldman's had money and the martin's do not.
Zimmerman will probably get off if this case goes to trial. There are contested eye witness accounts of what happened. Probably too much reasonable doubt to get a conviction. The case will have to go to a civil court where the family can sue Zimmerman to win.
You really dont think a jury might find him guilty of manslaughter? What are you talking about?
If you have conflicting eye witness accounts its going to lead to questions. If there's questions, there's no way all 12 jurors are going to agree on a guilty plea. That will lead to reasonable doubt and him getting off. It has nothing to do with the charges against him.
You have no idea what evidence the prosecution has (or will have), yet you are convinced Zimmerman "will probably get off"?
I have no idea what kind of assets he has but you could probably bankrupt his ass if he was found culpable in a civil case.
I guarantee there will not be a civil case. OJ had money but his biggest asset (his nfl pension) was protected. The goldman family got an 8 figure verdict but collected less than half a mil - (which is probably less than what they paid their attorneys). Which is the second reason why there will be no civil case - the goldman's had money and the martin's do not.
I still think there may be a civil suit if Zimmerman gets off on the criminal charges. Not that they will ever get money from him (did he even have a job?), but just so he will be declared guilty.
I could see the Martins getting donations or lawyers working pro bono in order to make this happen.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
What evidence does kvh has that Martin's family doesn't have money?
What evidence does kvh has that Martin's family doesn't have money?
This is easily the dumbest thing I have read all week.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
keithvanhorn said:
HarveyCanal said:
What evidence does kvh has that Martin's family doesn't have money?
This is easily the dumbest thing I have read all week.
You don't know who Trayvon might be related to. And you completely dismissed that there are plenty of non-family members who would be happy to bankroll a civil case.
I have no idea what kind of assets he has but you could probably bankrupt his ass if he was found culpable in a civil case.
I guarantee there will not be a civil case. OJ had money but his biggest asset (his nfl pension) was protected. The goldman family got an 8 figure verdict but collected less than half a mil - (which is probably less than what they paid their attorneys). Which is the second reason why there will be no civil case - the goldman's had money and the martin's do not.
I still think there may be a civil suit if Zimmerman gets off on the criminal charges. Not that they will ever get money from him (did he even have a job?), but just so he will be declared guilty.
I could see the Martins getting donations or lawyers working pro bono in order to make this happen.
It will not happen, even if he is convicted. It's a complete waste of time and resources. Whenever there is a murder conviction, the victim's family can walk into civil court and just have a trial on damages (because the standard in criminal cases is higher), but contrary to popular belief, civil lawyers don't try cases just for the hell of it. There would also be no moral victory to be gained.
What evidence does kvh has that Martin's family doesn't have money?
This is easily the dumbest thing I have read all week.
You don't know who Trayvon might be related to. And you completely dismissed that there are plenty of non-family members who would be happy to bankroll a civil case.
It's mostly dumb because you are being a troll. He could be the heir to the throne of Zamunda. It doesn't matter and is beside the point.
As a proud Black man, a productive member of society, and a person who loves humanity, that video is just utterly sickening. What in the hell is wrong with people? Race-ethnicity aside, there is no excuse for senseless violence against anyone. Common decency should have nothing to do with race-ethnicity, class, or any other so-called mitigating factor people might employ to justify such appalling behavior. I don't know who was worse, the perpetrators, the person filming it, or those who stood and watched.
As a proud Black man, a productive member of society, and a person who loves humanity, that video is just utterly sickening. What in the hell is wrong with people? Race-ethnicity aside, there is no excuse for senseless violence against anyone. Common decency should have nothing to do with race-ethnicity, class, or any other so-called mitigating factor people might employ to justify such appalling behavior. I don't know who was worse, the perpetrators, the person filming it, or those who stood and watched.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Stacks,
Agreed....we had an incident down here in Texas over Spring Break where a young man was beaten and stabbed to the brink of death in broad daylight on a beach. People filmed it and stood around watching while 10-20 people attacked this young man. Finally one bystander, a soldier on vacation, came to his rescue and most likely saved his life. This is a human behavioral problem that is rampant and crosses every societal line imaginable. We should all be outraged, not only at a specific incident that happens to touch on an incindiary hot button, but by all of it. Someone is murdered every 35 minutes in this country and regardless of race, creed or color, that is more outrageous and shameful on the whole than any one case could ever be.
So i just read this whole thread. Zimmerman should have been arrested immediately, no doubt. The fact that he wasn't arrested, given the benefit of the doubt, and the (social) media outrage seemingly needed to get this guy locked up are fucked up to say the least.
But, like Batmon said, the aura of a 'Move over Kony here comes Trayvon' hype somehow demeans the issues at hand.
Hot button topic bandwagoneering is fucking lame and the Trayvon retweet momentum coming from the fickle, flippant masses on social media leaves a foul taste in my mouth, regardless of the details surrounding Trayvon Martin. Anything so hyped runs the risk of feeling like meaningless indignation. In this case that's an accusation quite openly being leveled at, for want of a better word, 'the Trayvon movement'. Which is particularly troubling with an issue so obviously about race and class justice.
Damned if I do but part of me understands how the zealous outrage coming from the black community over Trayvon Martin is leading to accusations of crocodile tears from non blacks. Because the massive indignation surrounding TM somehow seems to be leading to this question: is racism, murder, and hate crime still mostly a one way street in the US?
Is the Trayvon Martin case real evidence that Jim Crow is still alive and kicking in the US? Is it yet more more evidence of THEM VS US? Is the black community justifiably outraged over this incident, more so than ANY other recent incidents? Is law enforcement and government still a white machine after all these years and is that THE PROBLEM? Spike Lee and Mike Tyson statements ftw?
Does the - justifiable - outrage and momentum surrounding Trayvon Martin somehow feel a little selective coming from an extremely vocal, young, black, e-connected demographic when so many other repugnant black on white and black on black crime is not only ignored, but in some instances even celebrated on sites like WSHH by the same hip hop generation retweeting 'Trayvon Martin' ?
Is that something worth addressing in this whole debate being sparked over the handling of the Trayvon case?
Justice can never be served. Trayvon is dead. And Zimmerman, what is he - an idiot? A racist murderer? More equal than others? He's a sad little man. Imo, in many ways, he's the end result of a society that encourages armed vigilante dickheads running around gated communities with a sense of authority to exist. Lethal force. Thug Life. Stand your ground. Swag. All distinctly American.
I found this article in the Wall Street Journal quite reasonably voiced some of the sentiment the Trayvon hype is triggering.
The Trayvon Martin Tragedies
The recent killing of Trayvon Martin needs more investigation. But where's the outrage over the daily scourge of black-on-black crime?
By JUAN WILLIAMS
The shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Florida has sparked national outrage, with civil rights leaders from San Francisco to Baltimore leading protests calling for a new investigation and the arrest of the shooter.
But what about all the other young black murder victims? Nationally, nearly half of all murder victims are black. And the overwhelming majority of those black people are killed by other black people. Where is the march for them?
Where is the march against the drug dealers who prey on young black people? Where is the march against bad schools, with their 50% dropout rate for black teenaged boys? Those failed schools are certainly guilty of creating the shameful 40% unemployment rate for black teens.
How about marching against the cable television shows constantly offering minstrel-show images of black youth as rappers and comedians who don't value education, dismiss the importance of marriage, and celebrate killing people, drug money and jailhouse fashion???the pants falling down because the jail guard has taken away the belt, the shoes untied because the warden removed the shoe laces, and accessories such as the drug dealer's pit bull.
Supposedly all of this is just entertainment and intended to co-opt the stereotypes. But it only ends up perpetuating stereotypes in white minds and, worse, having young black people internalize it as an authentic image of a proud black person.
There is no fashion, no thug attitude that should be an invitation to murder. But these are the real murderous forces surrounding the Martin death???and yet they never stir protests.
The race-baiters argue this case deserves special attention because it fits the mold of white-on-black violence that fills the history books. Some have drawn a comparison to the murder of Emmett Till, a black boy who was killed in 1955 by white racists for whistling at a white woman.
The Martin case is very different from the Emmett Till case, in which a white segregationist Mississippi society approved of the murder of a black child. Black America needs to get out of the rut of replaying racial injustices of the past.
All minority parents fear that children who embrace "gangsta" fashion, tattoos and a thug attitude will be prejudged as criminal.
Recall what Jesse Jackson once said: "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved. . . . After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating."
That is the unfair weight of being black in America for both the black person who feels the fear and the black teen who is judged as a criminal.
Despite stereotypes, the responsibility for the Florida shooting lies with the individual who pulled the trigger. The fact that the man pursued the teen after a 911 operator told him to back off, and the fact that he alone had a gun, calls for him to be arrested and held accountable under law. The Department of Justice is investigating the incident and the governor of Florida has appointed a special prosecutor to review the case.
But on a larger scale, all of this should open a serious national conversation about how our culture made it easier for this type of crime to take place.
As President Obama said last week, "I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen. And that means we examine the laws and the context for what happened, as well as the specifics of the incident."
While civil rights leaders have raised their voices to speak out against this one tragedy, few if any will do the same about the larger tragedy of daily carnage that is black-on-black crime in America.
The most recent comprehensive study on black-on-black crime from the Justice Department should have been a clarion call for the black community to take action. There is no reason to believe that the trends it reported have decreased since 2005, the year for which the data were reported.
Almost one half of the nation's murder victims that year were black and a majority of them were between the ages of 17 and 29. Black people accounted for 13% of the total U.S. population in 2005. Yet they were the victims of 49% of all the nation's murders. And 93% of black murder victims were killed by other black people, according to the same report.
Less than half of black students graduate from high school. The education system's failure is often a jail sentence or even a death sentence. The Orlando Sentinel has reported that 17-year-old Martin was recently suspended from his high school. According to the U.S. Department of Education's Civil Rights Office, in the 2006-07 school year, 22% of all black and Hispanic K-12 students were suspended at least once (as compared to 5% of whites).
This year 22% of blacks live below the poverty line and a shocking 72% of black babies are born to unwed mothers. The national unemployment rate for black people increased last month to over 13%, nearly five points above the average for all Americans.
The killing of any child is a tragedy. But where are the protests regarding the larger problems facing black America?
Mr. Williams is a political analyst for Fox News and a columnist for the Hill.
yo the baltimore attack and black on black murders are all important and should be treated as such. if trayvon martin's murder fires people up to address those, well thats great. but none of it should diminish or obscure what happened in Sanford. all that other shit is not admissible evidence.
trayvons murder was a disaster and tragedy on many levels (race, class, privilege, cronyism, gun law, etc and of course the death of a young unarmed man) and deserves national attention.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
tripledouble said:
yo the baltimore attack and black on black murders are all important and should be treated as such. if trayvon martin's murder fires people up to address those, well thats great. but none of it should diminish or obscure what happened in Sanford. all that other shit is not admissible evidence.
trayvons murder was a disaster and tragedy on many levels (race, class, privilege, cronyism, gun law, etc and of course the death of a young unarmed man) and deserves national attention.
Hey,
I have to TripleDouble's sentiments. The attack in Baltimore should in no way diminish the travesty of justice that occurred against Trayvon Martin. Any citizen innocent of any wrongdoing (or otherwise, as mandated by proper due process) should be free to roam as she/he chooses without the worry of senseless violence or murder against her/him. I just hope that Trayvon Martin's murder, as awful and heartbreaking as it was, sheds light on the unprovoked violence, and potentially, murder that Black men in America can be subject to at any given moment. Our country, characterized as the bastion of liberty and the pursuit of happiness, simply should not tolerate such injustice against ANY of its citizens.
Looks like Trayvon was using the "stand your ground law"...he was attacked by an armed stranger and fought back. What's your point?
all snarkiness aside, this does not prove a life threatening attack...any head wound will bleed like crazy..also the fact that the bleeding stopped and did not need to be bandaged (as evidenced by the police station footage shot less than a half-hour later) means that those abrasions were not deep, not life threatening. Also, peep the police station footage...Zimmerman got out of the back of the cop car, cuffed without help..dude just stood up and got out of the car with his hands cuffed behind his back. Go try that right now with your car...pull the front seats all the way back, sit in the back with your hands behind your back and get out..it is difficult and should have been impossible for someone with a serious head injury/concussion. George had some minor scrapes on his head...trust me after being a trainer for a decade and knowing the frustration to get bleeding stopped to get someone back on the field/court, that picture doesnt prove anything injury-wise.
Comments
If you have conflicting eye witness accounts its going to lead to questions. If there's questions, there's no way all 12 jurors are going to agree on a guilty plea. That will lead to reasonable doubt and him getting off. It has nothing to do with the charges against him.
In a civil case you only need a majority of jurors. Much easier to get your case across, and more likely that the family would win a lawsuit against Zimmerman.
Oh yeah. I know about that. I was referring to the fact that you can't get blood from a turnip. What money could Zimmerman possibly have?
I guarantee there will not be a civil case. OJ had money but his biggest asset (his nfl pension) was protected. The goldman family got an 8 figure verdict but collected less than half a mil - (which is probably less than what they paid their attorneys). Which is the second reason why there will be no civil case - the goldman's had money and the martin's do not.
You have no idea what evidence the prosecution has (or will have), yet you are convinced Zimmerman "will probably get off"?
I still think there may be a civil suit if Zimmerman gets off on the criminal charges. Not that they will ever get money from him (did he even have a job?), but just so he will be declared guilty.
I could see the Martins getting donations or lawyers working pro bono in order to make this happen.
This is easily the dumbest thing I have read all week.
You don't know who Trayvon might be related to. And you completely dismissed that there are plenty of non-family members who would be happy to bankroll a civil case.
It will not happen, even if he is convicted. It's a complete waste of time and resources. Whenever there is a murder conviction, the victim's family can walk into civil court and just have a trial on damages (because the standard in criminal cases is higher), but contrary to popular belief, civil lawyers don't try cases just for the hell of it. There would also be no moral victory to be gained.
It's mostly dumb because you are being a troll. He could be the heir to the throne of Zamunda. It doesn't matter and is beside the point.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/opinion/granderson-violence-race/index.html?hpt=ju_t3
Uh. No
Hey Rockadelic,
As a proud Black man, a productive member of society, and a person who loves humanity, that video is just utterly sickening. What in the hell is wrong with people? Race-ethnicity aside, there is no excuse for senseless violence against anyone. Common decency should have nothing to do with race-ethnicity, class, or any other so-called mitigating factor people might employ to justify such appalling behavior. I don't know who was worse, the perpetrators, the person filming it, or those who stood and watched.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Stacks,
Agreed....we had an incident down here in Texas over Spring Break where a young man was beaten and stabbed to the brink of death in broad daylight on a beach. People filmed it and stood around watching while 10-20 people attacked this young man. Finally one bystander, a soldier on vacation, came to his rescue and most likely saved his life. This is a human behavioral problem that is rampant and crosses every societal line imaginable. We should all be outraged, not only at a specific incident that happens to touch on an incindiary hot button, but by all of it. Someone is murdered every 35 minutes in this country and regardless of race, creed or color, that is more outrageous and shameful on the whole than any one case could ever be.
Rich
It doesn't. Same old deflection tactics.
Thank you.
What exactly do you think Mr. Granderson was trying to deflect from and what could possibly be his motive?
But, like Batmon said, the aura of a 'Move over Kony here comes Trayvon' hype somehow demeans the issues at hand.
Hot button topic bandwagoneering is fucking lame and the Trayvon retweet momentum coming from the fickle, flippant masses on social media leaves a foul taste in my mouth, regardless of the details surrounding Trayvon Martin. Anything so hyped runs the risk of feeling like meaningless indignation. In this case that's an accusation quite openly being leveled at, for want of a better word, 'the Trayvon movement'. Which is particularly troubling with an issue so obviously about race and class justice.
Damned if I do but part of me understands how the zealous outrage coming from the black community over Trayvon Martin is leading to accusations of crocodile tears from non blacks. Because the massive indignation surrounding TM somehow seems to be leading to this question: is racism, murder, and hate crime still mostly a one way street in the US?
Is the Trayvon Martin case real evidence that Jim Crow is still alive and kicking in the US? Is it yet more more evidence of THEM VS US? Is the black community justifiably outraged over this incident, more so than ANY other recent incidents? Is law enforcement and government still a white machine after all these years and is that THE PROBLEM? Spike Lee and Mike Tyson statements ftw?
Does the - justifiable - outrage and momentum surrounding Trayvon Martin somehow feel a little selective coming from an extremely vocal, young, black, e-connected demographic when so many other repugnant black on white and black on black crime is not only ignored, but in some instances even celebrated on sites like WSHH by the same hip hop generation retweeting 'Trayvon Martin' ?
Is that something worth addressing in this whole debate being sparked over the handling of the Trayvon case?
Justice can never be served. Trayvon is dead. And Zimmerman, what is he - an idiot? A racist murderer? More equal than others? He's a sad little man. Imo, in many ways, he's the end result of a society that encourages armed vigilante dickheads running around gated communities with a sense of authority to exist. Lethal force. Thug Life. Stand your ground. Swag. All distinctly American.
I found this article in the Wall Street Journal quite reasonably voiced some of the sentiment the Trayvon hype is triggering.
Agreed. That Williams piece is ridiculous.
trayvons murder was a disaster and tragedy on many levels (race, class, privilege, cronyism, gun law, etc and of course the death of a young unarmed man) and deserves national attention.
hate this.
Hey,
I have to
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
And?
Looks like Trayvon was using the "stand your ground law"...he was attacked by an armed stranger and fought back. What's your point?
all snarkiness aside, this does not prove a life threatening attack...any head wound will bleed like crazy..also the fact that the bleeding stopped and did not need to be bandaged (as evidenced by the police station footage shot less than a half-hour later) means that those abrasions were not deep, not life threatening. Also, peep the police station footage...Zimmerman got out of the back of the cop car, cuffed without help..dude just stood up and got out of the car with his hands cuffed behind his back. Go try that right now with your car...pull the front seats all the way back, sit in the back with your hands behind your back and get out..it is difficult and should have been impossible for someone with a serious head injury/concussion. George had some minor scrapes on his head...trust me after being a trainer for a decade and knowing the frustration to get bleeding stopped to get someone back on the field/court, that picture doesnt prove anything injury-wise.