Jaheim "Aint leaving without you" > De La Soul's " Ring Ring Ring (Ha Ha Hey)"
Kinda funny Jaheim replaces "Impeach The President" (Aaron Fuchs lawsuit-rel) with Whatnauts' own break beat. I guess if they're already handing Whatnauts' all the publishing for "Help Is On The Way"...
ME: The box is light.
YOU: No it's not, it's painted black.
ME: No, I meant it's heavy. Pick it up.
YOU: BUT YOU SAID IT WAS LIGHT! IT'S PAINTED BLACK! YOU DON'T KNOW THE FIRST THING ABOUT BOXES. LET ME SHOW YOU ANOTHER REALLY DARK BOX, I BET YOU THINK THAT'S LIGHT TOO?!?!?!?!
There's no backpeddaling. It's what I've been saying ALL ALONG. I've said from earliest posts that Slick Rick's version represents greater artistic achievement. It's just taken you this long to get it. (Except for Batmon who needs to put in some serious work in the reading comprehension department.)
"Definitive" is a word that just OBVIOUSLY has many different meanings. The criticisms in this thread are people screaming on me for using language in a different way than they do. There's no right or wrong way to use the word "light" or "definitive."
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
"Definitive" is a word that just OBVIOUSLY has many different meanings. The criticisms in this thread are people screaming on me for using language in a different way than they do. There's no right or wrong way to use the word "light" or "definitive."
Snoop recorded the definite version of that rap. Slick Rick deserves much of credit, but Snoop's version is better./quote]
I cant read - so your just sayin - Better and Definitive is the same thing?
I've never seen "definitive" used to mean someone's favorite or the one they personally think sounds better, because that would be almost the opposite meaning of definitive
I've never seen "definitive" used to mean someone's favorite or the one they personally think sounds better, because that would be almost the opposite meaning of definitive
What's the Definitive version of DEFINITIVE?!!!!!!!!
:get_on_my_level:
Hahaha.
Sheeeeeit. Well, if you really wanna know...
Definitive just means G.O.A.T.
But I don't know how to answer that question about a song until you tell me more. Greatest in terms of artistic achievement that it represents? Or are we talking about the most beautiful? There are many, many different valuable things about a song and when we make comparisons it seems like it's usually in terms of some values specified by the context. Kind of like tall. I can say "He's tall" on the basketball court and communicate one thing. If I say it on the subway, I communicate another. But if you ask: Forget about the criteria, is the song good period? That sounds about as meaningful as: Forget about whether we're comparing him to basketball players or the average American, is he tall?
If someone tries to call me out in a favorite hip-hop verses thread, then I must be making some kind of mistake in what sounds good. I'm like the dude who tells a wine connoisseur that Carlo Rossi is amazing. Or if I'm listing some weird shit that only I like. But I don't think that's what's going here. So I used "definitive" to claim some kind of objectivity for my taste. This is a common use of the word in describing whether something sounds better or tastes better. Here's an example of exactly how I was using it:
So, I'm asking some guy who works at a wine store the other day for recommendations and he says "Well I personally prefer this bottle, but this other bodega has made the definitive Malbec." In that context, it probably doesn't matter whether the bodega stole the recipe and added one extra ingredient. He's also not reporting his personal taste. Since we like other similar wines, I should probably follow his recommendation even if I don't like the wine at first. Other experts might disagree with him about the definitive Malbec. If they have different tastes, this disagreement will be deep and irresolvable.
So it turns out I made a list only based on beauty and you used other additional criteria to rank songs. So I think I'm communicating one thing with by saying "Snoop's recording is better". But you guys are taking me to mean something else.
The only question is why anyone would have ever thought we would all be using the same criteria in the first place. I don't know why I did.
What's the Definitive version of DEFINITIVE?!!!!!!!!
:get_on_my_level:
Hahaha.
Sheeeeeit. Well, if you really wanna know...
Definitive just means G.O.A.T.
But I don't know how to answer that question about a song until you tell me more. Greatest in terms of artistic achievement that it represents? Or are we talking about the most beautiful? There are many, many different valuable things about a song and when we make comparisons it seems like it's usually in terms of some values specified by the context. Kind of like tall. I can say "He's tall" on the basketball court and communicate one thing. If I say it on the subway, I communicate another. But if you ask: Forget about the criteria, is the song good period? That sounds about as meaningful as: Forget about whether we're comparing him to basketball players or the average American, is he tall?
If someone tries to call me out in a favorite hip-hop verses thread, then I must be making some kind of mistake in what sounds good. I'm like the dude who tells a wine connoisseur that Carlo Rossi is amazing. Or if I'm listing some weird shit that only I like. But I don't think that's what's going here. So I used "definitive" to claim some kind of objectivity for my taste. This is a common use of the word in describing whether something sounds better or tastes better. Here's an example of exactly how I was using it:
So, I'm asking some guy who works at a wine store the other day for recommendations and he says "Well I personally prefer this bottle, but this other bodega has made the definitive Malbec." In that context, it probably doesn't matter whether the bodega stole the recipe and added one extra ingredient. He's also not reporting his personal taste. Since we like other similar wines, I should probably follow his recommendation even if I don't like the wine at first. Other experts might disagree with him about the definitive Malbec. If they have different tastes, this disagreement will be deep and irresolvable.
So it turns out I made a list only based on beauty and you used other additional criteria to rank songs. So I think I'm communicating one thing with by saying "Snoop's recording is better". But you guys are taking me to mean something else.
The only question is why anyone would have ever thought we would all be using the same criteria in the first place. I don't know why I did.
I think there are many examples where covers son the original. And the consensus is that it becomes the favored version rendering the OG as just a good blueprint, but not the best because its the OG.
Snoop's version which came about during his big media time, Dre. production, and tech evolution, helped introduce an African American Folk song to a new generation of Hip Hop listeners.
In '85 that cassette/routine was like having fresh Newports at Rikers. It wasnt ubiquitous like the vinyl.
In time many folks heard it or own a dub and memorized it despite NO RADIO play.
I remember some dude's cousin came up from down south and knew the words, and this was before shit even came out on vinyl.
Like many have said before - feel free to prefer Snoop's version but to try and eclipse the history of the song w/ your values is mad suspect in my eyes.
I'm gettin tired sayin the same shit in a different way 10 times.
This could have been put to be if you simply just said u preferred Snoop's joint vs trying to present a short-sided view of Hip Hop history or tryin' to twist the meaning of definitive.
Would Lodi Dodi/Ladi Dadi even been on Doggystyle if it wasnt a known song?
Could Snoop do Discombobulatorbubulator and get the same reaction?
I'm gettin tired sayin the same shit in a different way 10 times.
Me too, man. Me too.
batmon said:
This could have been put to be if you simply just said u preferred Snoop's joint vs trying to present a short-sided view of Hip Hop history or tryin' to twist the meaning of definitive.
Dude, you might always use definitive on some historical achievement, must son the OG shit. But most people just mean best. And when ranking works of art, some people just look at the intrinsic features of the objects, other people take a more historical view.
I would have the thought the take home lesson from all this is that people can value works of art for totally different reason. So it's important to understand how they are evaluating something, before jumping to the conclusions that they are wrong. Otherwise much time will be wasted.
@jjrocks -
You meant "your favorite" but you went and said "definitive"
Definitive isn't a word where you can make up your own meaning for it, it means definitive!
It's not like we're all trying to argue against you like our opinion vs your opinion and using different methods of criteria as if it's open for discussion... we're just telling you that it IS considered the definitive version, for reasons already explained.
It's not like everyone gets to throw their 2 cents into whether it'll be the definitive version or not, something becomes the definitive version because of specific reasons, and then that's what it is.
You thinking something is the best and all your friends thinking the same does not change the meaning of definitive and it does not change Hip-Hop history or which tracks are definitive.
@jjrocks -
You thinking something is the best and all your friends thinking the same does not change the meaning of definitive and it does not change Hip-Hop history or which tracks are definitive.
@jjrocks -
You thinking something is the best and all your friends thinking the same does not change the meaning of definitive and it does not change Hip-Hop history or which tracks are definitive.
You really still don't get it? Sigh. Definitive means best. You guys think historical factors make a song better. I disagree.
I think those factors are important in assigning credit to the artists but not at all relevant to how good the song is. I think that facts available to deaf people are irrelevant to how good the song is. What me and my friends think is irrelevant. It only depends on how good it sounds.
I don't know how to settle who is right about the criteria. But it doesn't really matter to me. As long as we're clear about the criteria we can talk about rap and stop talking about words.
But you guys seem to need me to be wrong. So why are your criteria THE CORRECT criteria?
Edit: I meant to say that what me and my friends think doesn't MAKE the song good. But it's certainly some evidence that it's good.
as a dude who once started a long azz thread here w/ the CHALLENGING OPINION that 2001 >>> the first chronic (i still believe this -- not as important, but more consistently listenable) im totally sympathetic to arguments like JJ's in a lot of circumstances
but in this one hes just str8 up rong. i bet you a huge percentage of the rap audience checking that track at the time knew exactly what song it was referencing. its an all time classic. most definitive. also best, although i guess thats beside the pt
Comments
you aint never lied..
ME: The box is light.
YOU: No it's not, it's painted black.
ME: No, I meant it's heavy. Pick it up.
YOU: BUT YOU SAID IT WAS LIGHT! IT'S PAINTED BLACK! YOU DON'T KNOW THE FIRST THING ABOUT BOXES. LET ME SHOW YOU ANOTHER REALLY DARK BOX, I BET YOU THINK THAT'S LIGHT TOO?!?!?!?!
There's no backpeddaling. It's what I've been saying ALL ALONG. I've said from earliest posts that Slick Rick's version represents greater artistic achievement. It's just taken you this long to get it. (Except for Batmon who needs to put in some serious work in the reading comprehension department.)
"Definitive" is a word that just OBVIOUSLY has many different meanings. The criticisms in this thread are people screaming on me for using language in a different way than they do. There's no right or wrong way to use the word "light" or "definitive."
:get_on_my_level:
once more for the cheap seats...
Hahaha.
Sheeeeeit. Well, if you really wanna know...
Definitive just means G.O.A.T.
But I don't know how to answer that question about a song until you tell me more. Greatest in terms of artistic achievement that it represents? Or are we talking about the most beautiful? There are many, many different valuable things about a song and when we make comparisons it seems like it's usually in terms of some values specified by the context. Kind of like tall. I can say "He's tall" on the basketball court and communicate one thing. If I say it on the subway, I communicate another. But if you ask: Forget about the criteria, is the song good period? That sounds about as meaningful as: Forget about whether we're comparing him to basketball players or the average American, is he tall?
If someone tries to call me out in a favorite hip-hop verses thread, then I must be making some kind of mistake in what sounds good. I'm like the dude who tells a wine connoisseur that Carlo Rossi is amazing. Or if I'm listing some weird shit that only I like. But I don't think that's what's going here. So I used "definitive" to claim some kind of objectivity for my taste. This is a common use of the word in describing whether something sounds better or tastes better. Here's an example of exactly how I was using it:
So, I'm asking some guy who works at a wine store the other day for recommendations and he says "Well I personally prefer this bottle, but this other bodega has made the definitive Malbec." In that context, it probably doesn't matter whether the bodega stole the recipe and added one extra ingredient. He's also not reporting his personal taste. Since we like other similar wines, I should probably follow his recommendation even if I don't like the wine at first. Other experts might disagree with him about the definitive Malbec. If they have different tastes, this disagreement will be deep and irresolvable.
So it turns out I made a list only based on beauty and you used other additional criteria to rank songs. So I think I'm communicating one thing with by saying "Snoop's recording is better". But you guys are taking me to mean something else.
The only question is why anyone would have ever thought we would all be using the same criteria in the first place. I don't know why I did.
I think there are many examples where covers son the original. And the consensus is that it becomes the favored version rendering the OG as just a good blueprint, but not the best because its the OG.
Snoop's version which came about during his big media time, Dre. production, and tech evolution, helped introduce an African American Folk song to a new generation of Hip Hop listeners.
In '85 that cassette/routine was like having fresh Newports at Rikers. It wasnt ubiquitous like the vinyl.
In time many folks heard it or own a dub and memorized it despite NO RADIO play.
I remember some dude's cousin came up from down south and knew the words, and this was before shit even came out on vinyl.
Like many have said before - feel free to prefer Snoop's version but to try and eclipse the history of the song w/ your values is mad suspect in my eyes.
I'm gettin tired sayin the same shit in a different way 10 times.
This could have been put to be if you simply just said u preferred Snoop's joint vs trying to present a short-sided view of Hip Hop history or tryin' to twist the meaning of definitive.
Would Lodi Dodi/Ladi Dadi even been on Doggystyle if it wasnt a known song?
Could Snoop do Discombobulatorbubulator and get the same reaction?
Me too, man. Me too.
Dude, you might always use definitive on some historical achievement, must son the OG shit. But most people just mean best. And when ranking works of art, some people just look at the intrinsic features of the objects, other people take a more historical view.
I would have the thought the take home lesson from all this is that people can value works of art for totally different reason. So it's important to understand how they are evaluating something, before jumping to the conclusions that they are wrong. Otherwise much time will be wasted.
:game_over:
You meant "your favorite" but you went and said "definitive"
Definitive isn't a word where you can make up your own meaning for it, it means definitive!
It's not like we're all trying to argue against you like our opinion vs your opinion and using different methods of criteria as if it's open for discussion... we're just telling you that it IS considered the definitive version, for reasons already explained.
It's not like everyone gets to throw their 2 cents into whether it'll be the definitive version or not, something becomes the definitive version because of specific reasons, and then that's what it is.
You thinking something is the best and all your friends thinking the same does not change the meaning of definitive and it does not change Hip-Hop history or which tracks are definitive.
Run DMC - Sucker MC's
T La Rock & Jazzy Jay - It's Yours
Ultramagnetic MC's - Ego Trippin
Public Enemy - Fight the Power
You really still don't get it? Sigh. Definitive means best. You guys think historical factors make a song better. I disagree.
I think those factors are important in assigning credit to the artists but not at all relevant to how good the song is. I think that facts available to deaf people are irrelevant to how good the song is. What me and my friends think is irrelevant. It only depends on how good it sounds.
I don't know how to settle who is right about the criteria. But it doesn't really matter to me. As long as we're clear about the criteria we can talk about rap and stop talking about words.
But you guys seem to need me to be wrong. So why are your criteria THE CORRECT criteria?
Edit: I meant to say that what me and my friends think doesn't MAKE the song good. But it's certainly some evidence that it's good.
Best example is closer, but not just "best".
Nor does it mean GOAT.
It's a thin line, but the word does not comment on quality.
Five pages of this insanity and no one pulled out a dictionary?
M-W:
1de??fin??i??tive
adj di-??fi-n??-tiv
Definition of DEFINITIVE
1
: serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation
2
: authoritative and apparently exhaustive
3
a : serving to define or specify precisely b : serving as a perfect example : quintessential
4
: fully differentiated or developed
5
of a postage stamp : issued as a regular stamp for the country or territory in which it is to be used
??? de??fin??i??tive??ly adverb
??? de??fin??i??tive??ness noun
Examples of DEFINITIVE
1. We need a definitive answer to this question.
2. The court has issued a definitive ruling.
3. a definitive collection of the band's albums
Origin of DEFINITIVE
Middle English diffinityf, from Anglo-French diffinitive, from Latin definitivus, from definitus
First Known Use: 14th century
Related to DEFINITIVE
Synonyms: authoritative, classic, classical, magisterial
Antonyms: inconclusive, indecisive, unclear
Er no, definitive means definitive
is my "what a fool believes" of rap
is my "i can't go for that" of rap
is my "peg" of rap
is my "wired for sound" of rap
but in this one hes just str8 up rong. i bet you a huge percentage of the rap audience checking that track at the time knew exactly what song it was referencing. its an all time classic. most definitive. also best, although i guess thats beside the pt