so are all athletes that finished their careers half assedly in the running for "worst of all time"? i'm not sure why you are assuming anyone involved in an artistic field has and will keep up the same level of skill for their whole life..
Quote:h, 21b, 21so are all athletes that finished their careers half assedly in the running for "worst of all time"? i'm not sure why you are assuming anyone involved in an artistic field has and will keep up the same level of skill for their whole life.. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21If you are replying to me, I don't consider athletes "artists" especiallyb, 21since most athletes' performance falls off later in their career becauseb, 21their bodies can no longer perform at the same level - this is not trueb, 21of (most) artists. Furthermore, Woo didn't "finish" his career with hisb, 21Hollywood films, he came here at the peak of his popularity, at a relativelyb, 21young age, and started making the garbage films we are talking about from b, 21day one. It's not a matter of keeping up the same level of skill, it's aboutb, 21being lazy, formulaic, uninspired, uncreative, etc, etc.
And when I said "American Output" I meant funded by American Corps. Nothing to do with white people...b, 21b, 21I used the term American output on the whole point of saying Woo's western films supposedly sucked.b, 21b, 21I'm pretty positive that at the time of release, films like Face/Off, Broken Arrow & Hard Target didn't completely suck... Try watching a huge portion of those kick ass films from the 80's & 90's now. Most are pretty embarrassing now.
Quote:h, 21b, 21re: "worst director of all time" ... while I already admitted to useb, 21of hyperbole to try to get this thread popping (and it worked!), I alsob, 21have to point out my personal criteria for naming a person the "worst"b, 21at something, and why Woo would at least have to be considered, in myb, 21mind. See, I don't generally consider the worst person in a creative fieldb, 21to be the least talented, or the one who makes the most horrible movies even.b, 21I generally consider people who are honestly talented, or who have shownb, 21serious potential, yet continue to make bad/lazy/unwatchable/laughable b, 21pieces of "art" much worse than those who just don't know any better orb, 21don't have the talent within them. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21Can anyone defend Woody Allen's output in the last 20 years?
Quote:h, 21b, 21re: "worst director of all time" ... while I already admitted to useb, 21of hyperbole to try to get this thread popping (and it worked!), I alsob, 21have to point out my personal criteria for naming a person the "worst"b, 21at something, and why Woo would at least have to be considered, in myb, 21mind. See, I don't generally consider the worst person in a creative fieldb, 21to be the least talented, or the one who makes the most horrible movies even.b, 21I generally consider people who are honestly talented, or who have shownb, 21serious potential, yet continue to make bad/lazy/unwatchable/laughable b, 21pieces of "art" much worse than those who just don't know any better orb, 21don't have the talent within them. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21Can anyone defend Woody Allen's output in the last 20 years? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21He had some ok films the last 20 years. But on average his last 20 years is not hot by any means.
His HK catalogue has some heat (A Better Tomorrow, Hard Boiled, and The Killer being the most obvious; even if you don't feel these movies they get major points for influence.)b, 21b, 21Everything he's done stateside is garbagio. b, 21b, 21I don't know why this thread is so long.
Quote:h, 21b, 21And when I said "American Output" I meant funded by American Corps. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Every movie he's made except for "Pushing Hands" was partially produced with American production companies on board and "Pushing Hands" was partially produced by Lee's own production company which, I'm assuming, was based in NY since he lived in NY at the time. b, 21b, 21Maybe you mean pre vs. post major studio funding?
Quote:h, 21b, 21And when I said "American Output" I meant funded by American Corps. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Every movie he's made except for "Pushing Hands" was partially produced with American production companies on board and "Pushing Hands" was partially produced by Lee's own production company which, I'm assuming, was based in NY since he lived in NY at the time. b, 21b, 21Maybe you mean pre vs. post major studio funding? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21Just because a film has some sort of American funding it makes it an America film? b, 21b, 21Like, Sense and Sensibility I guess would come under UK & US. Because that's where the money came from and I believe at the Oscars it was treated in part as a domestic movie. When in reality...b, 21b, 21Based on Classic English Literature - Checkb, 21Screen Writer British - Checkb, 2199% of Cast British - Checkb, 21Filmed entirely in the UK - Checkb, 21Non American Director - Checkb, 21Major portion of crew from the UK - Checkb, 21Financial Backing - US - Checkb, 21b, 21b, 21But, the money came from Columbia Pictures Corporation, which is an American company. But owned ultimately by Sony.b, 21b, 21So does this mean in the end this version of Sense and Sensibility is a UK/America/Japanese film?b, 21b, 21All very confusing. Slightly reminds me of this for Juno...b, 21b, 21http://artthreat.net/2008/02/oscar-winning-juno-not-canadian-enough-for-canadas-oscars//a1b, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21In the end, I don't care... Just *IMO* Woo is no where near the worst director ever.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21I'm pretty positive that at the time of release, films like Face/Off, Broken Arrow & Hard Target didn't completely suck... Try watching a huge portion of those kick ass films from the 80's & 90's now. Most are pretty embarrassing now. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21See the ones that were truly kick ass in the 80's/early 90's still don't seem embarrassing to me now - in fact they shit over most action films put out today. You can blame nostalgia for that if you want but then all three of those Woo films were polished turds even at the time of release. I may not hate them as much now as when I forked out my money to sit in a cinema to watch them but they are overblown and underdone at the same time. Like I mentioned before, I think there's a level of sentimentality that seems to work within HK action movies that just doesn't translate to western movies. This may not be Woo's fault but someone somewhere should have stepped in and vetoed the doves.
Quote:h, 21b, 21As for Woo - I think it's perfectly fair to point out his American films are shitty. As people have pointed out, he came to the US at the HEIGHT of his HK film career[/b]. The idea that the US was some kind of retirement trip makes no sense relative to how many films he's actually made here.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21I think there's a big difference between his HK career and making Hollywood films.b, 21b, 21I don't think Woo's age is that important. Every artist has a creative peak, and a falling-off once they've said what they set out to say. According to imdb, Woo has been directing since 1968 - you really think Hard Target in '93 isn't the start of him reaping some commercial reward for the work he'd put in previously? At that stage, he was simply able to cash-in without anybody voicing dissent in view of his previous work.b, 21b, 21Lastly, nobody gets tired of making money (even if they lose the inspiration to make art). This is why the comparision with Beckham is most apt to me. With Man Utd, Beckham won the greatest prize in club football, then moved to Real Madrid to play for the most glamorous team in club football alongside Zidane, Figo, Carlos, Raul etc etc. He's a very rich man. He isn't even a very good player these days, but he still turns up to bring home the bacon and will endorse just about any product put in front of him: pension plan.
Quote:h, 21b, 21As for Woo - I think it's perfectly fair to point out his American films are shitty. As people have pointed out, he came to the US at the HEIGHT of his HK film career/b1. The idea that the US was some kind of retirement trip makes no sense relative to how many films he's actually made here.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21I think there's a big difference between his HK career and making Hollywood films. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Yeah, his Hollywood films suck.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21I'm pretty positive that at the time of release, films like Face/Off, Broken Arrow & Hard Target didn't completely suck... Try watching a huge portion of those kick ass films from the 80's & 90's now. Most are pretty embarrassing now. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21See the ones that were truly kick ass in the 80's/early 90's still don't seem embarrassing to me now - in fact they shit over most action films put out today. You can blame nostalgia for that if you want but then all three of those Woo films were polished turds even at the time of release. I may not hate them as much now as when I forked out my money to sit in a cinema to watch them but they are overblown and underdone at the same time. Like I mentioned before, I think there's a level of sentimentality that seems to work within HK action movies that just doesn't translate to western movies. This may not be Woo's fault but someone somewhere should have stepped in and vetoed the doves. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21Nobody liked Face Off on here??b, 21b, 21While I was more interested in Shaw Brothers, Woo, Tsui Hark, etc etc etc flicks as a kid. Most around me would always bring up Bloodsport. I remember liking it when it first came out and watching it with friends over & over when it came out on VHS. But watching it now is almost impossible... Same goes for many Seagal movies (minus Marked For Death).b, 21b, 21b, 21Which action directors from the 80's & 90's have a great resume right through without many terds in it? I need some comparisons here...
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21Nobody liked Face Off on here??b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21The only nice thing I can say about it is that it didn't suck as badly as some of his other films but "overwrought" would be an understatement.
b, 21I'm pretty positive that at the time of release, films like Face/Off, Broken Arrow & Hard Target didn't completely suck... Try watching a huge portion of those kick ass films from the 80's & 90's now. Most are pretty embarrassing now.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1
b, 21
b, 21See the ones that were truly kick ass in the 80's/early 90's still don't seem embarrassing to me now - in fact they shit over most action films put out today. You can blame nostalgia for that if you want but then all three of those Woo films were polished turds even at the time of release. I may not hate them as much now as when I forked out my money to sit in a cinema to watch them but they are overblown and underdone at the same time. Like I mentioned before, I think there's a level of sentimentality that seems to work within HK action movies that just doesn't translate to western movies. This may not be Woo's fault but someone somewhere should have stepped in and vetoed the doves.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1
b, 21
b, 21
b, 21Nobody liked Face Off on here??
b, 21
b, 21While I was more interested in Shaw Brothers, Woo, Tsui Hark, etc etc etc flicks as a kid. Most around me would always bring up Bloodsport. I remember liking it when it first came out and watching it with friends over & over when it came out on VHS. But watching it now is almost impossible... Same goes for many Seagal movies (minus Marked For Death).
b, 21
b, 21
b, 21Which action directors from the 80's & 90's have a great resume right through without many terds in it? I need some comparisons here...
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Well Seagal movies are something that exist entirely on another plain for me and I'll avoid that line of thought to stop this going into a whole nother area (though I do have to say that for me Out For Justice is undoubtedly Seagal's gift to the late eighties/early nineties action movie genre).b, 21b, 21Bloodsport is, to put it bluntly, shit but I still enjoy it for the nostalgic aspect as well as the ever excellent performance by Bolo.b, 21b, 21Due to the changing nature of the game when it comes to action movies (the spiralling budgets, the increasing reliance on CGI, the replacement of traditional masculine actors with the current fad for geeky leads) it seems almost impossible for any director to continue nailing the formula though I guess you could hold up Walter Hill as a director who did it far longer than most.b, 21b, 21John McTiernan was up there for a while before it all went south and what both he, Hill and a number of others had that Woo's hollyood films lack is a sense of character and purpose. I mean, I felt more empathy for a bunch of steroid fuelled cigar chomping steroetypes fighting an invisible alien than I did for any character in Face Off never mind anything approaching the character development of John McClane. b, 21b, 21I accept that you are going to have to use broad character strokes in an action film but to me at least if a film is 2 and a half hours long you need more than some ballistic balletics to keep the viewer interested.
I would just like to add that Travolta's muse for his Hollywood films wasb, 21definitely John Woo.b, 21I've never seen such inspired psycho performances from him before or since.b, 21I really hope they do a third film together.b, 21Woo Fanboy 4 lifeb, 21Even though i haven't seen Mission: Impossible II ,Windtalkers or Paycheck.
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I would recommend watching this and then reappraising yourb, 21b, 21/font1
font class="small"1Quote:
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h, 21
b, 21Woo Fanboy 4 life
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1 b, 21b, 21statusb, 21b, 21The Travolta thing got me thinking - is there any other actor around who has made as many god awful movies who's still considered a big box office draw? Apart from Nicholas Cage?
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