Last Hurrah for Chivalry was cool. So was Better Tomorrow I & II. Hand Of Death was okay, too. He worked with Chang Cheh & was assistant director of some big Shaw films like Boxer From Shantung, The Water Margin and The Blood Brothers. Not a bad pedigree. I would pass on his US films, tho.
I had big expectations for Woo when he went to Hollywood as his movie making style seemed perfectly suited. However while Hard Target felt liek a director finding his feet and Broken Arrow made me feel embarrassed, MI2 and Face Off are up there for the most painful cinema experiences of my life. b, 21b, 21Forget Return Of The King, Face Off has about 30 different climatic chases marvellously topped off with one of the most painfully heavy handed endings in recent years. MI2 just has nothing going for it at all, my only memories of the film are Tom Cruise's hair, the doves, and a million slo mo close ups of Thandie Newton smiling enigmatically.b, 21b, 21I think all these elements were always in his Hong Kong movies but, at least for me, I've always had a higher tolerance of the cheesier aspects of these films in non Hollywood productions.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Quote:h, 21b, 21Bullet in the Head is a great film. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Yep, my favourite John Woo movie by some distance.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Quote:h, 21b, 21
Quote:h, 21b, 21Next with Nicolas Cage wasn't directed by Woo. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Really?? I swore it was. My mistake! But Broken Arrow was boooooooring, dude! b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21The Woo/Philip K. Dick movie you're thinking of is "Paycheck" with Ben Affleck and Uma Thurman. I thought it was OK, but in my experience, PKD adaptations are usually interesting on some level or other.b, 21b, 21John Travolta's scenery-chewing turn in "Broken Arrow" made it watchable for me, and the premise is interesting, but it's not a great movie otherwise.
What's the point in judging John Woo on his Hollywood output? That's like judging Beckham on his career at LA Galaxy - for both of them, their best work was behind them, and they went to America for the money, to an audience that doesn't really appreciate what they were doing before anyway. A Better Tomorrow I & II, and Hardboiled are benchmarks in a specific genre that was never meant for US consumption. Woo's career isn't going to be judged on his pension-plan.
Quote:h, 21b, 21What about nominees for worst director ever with any serious artistic rep??? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21John Cassavettes. I find most of his "artistic" work unwatchable. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21"Unwatchable"? And I thought Dolo was bad img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /1 I can see not getting his more idiosyncratic work like The Killing of A Chinese Bookie or Love Streams, but stuff like A Woman Under the Influence is some raw, real schitt that any emotionally alive person should be able identify with. A director that gets performances out of actors like Cassavetes doesn't belong anywhere near the word "worst."
Quote:h, 21b, 21What about nominees for worst director ever with any serious artistic rep??? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21John Cassavettes. I find most of his "artistic" work unwatchable. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21"Unwatchable"? And I thought Dolo was bad img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /1 I can see not getting his more idiosyncratic work like The Killing of A Chinese Bookie or Love Streams, but stuff like A Woman Under the Influence is some raw, real schitt that any emotionally alive person should be able identify with. A director that gets performances out of actors like Cassavetes doesn't belong anywhere near the word "worst." b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Haven't seen A Woman Under the Influence. I stopped trying to watch his artsy stuff after suffering through The Killing of A Chinese Bookie, Faces, and Shadows. Although I don't think Shadows really belongs so much in the same category as the other two.
I'm with SoI on this one, FACE/OFF was mildly entertaining, but if I want goofy, knuckle-dragging spectacle I'll pop in an Andy Sidaris direct-to-video wonder, like MALIBU EXPRESS, a jaw-dropper.
Quote:h, 21b, 21What's the point in judging John Woo on his Hollywood output? That's like judging Beckham on his career at LA Galaxy - for both of them, their best work was behind them, and they went to America for the money, to an audience that doesn't really appreciate what they were doing before anyway. A Better Tomorrow I & II, and Hardboiled are benchmarks in a specific genre that was never meant for US consumption. Woo's career isn't going to be judged on his pension-plan. b, 21b, 21h, 21
Bad comparison. John Woo was probably about 50 years old when he came to Hollywood, hardly past his prime especially as directors go. Sidney Lumet is still churning out solid films at the ripe age of 84.
Quote:h, 21b, 21to an audience that doesn't really appreciate what they were doing before anyway.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21And this is what it all boils down to. Very few directors from Asia get much credit after they come to America to work. I'm sure a few of you dudes could clown any single one of them and their so called "American Output".b, 21b, 21I hated Woo's version of Mission Impossible. But I would never try to decrease his overall achievements.b, 21b, 21Another example...b, 21b, 21Ang Lee's US films have been tepid at best. But I still think he's a pretty damn good director.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21Ang Lee's US films have been tepid at best. But I still think he's a pretty damn good director. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Based on what exactly? All but three of his films are based in the U.S. (and I think almost all his films are co-funded by American money). b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21The Ice Storm was a good film.b, 21Brokeback Mountain - While the cinematography was brilliant, I didn't think was all that great.b, 21b, 21The Hulk sucked... I don't care what anyone says.b, 21b, 21And I know I'll get clowned, but I think Sense and Sensibility was Lee's best piece of work for his "American Output". His first western film and I think he nailed a British classic... Tho, I'm sure a small part of that is due to Emma Thompson.b, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21In any case, to say Woo is the worst director of all time is a massive stretch and a slap in the face of a pretty decent director who had a small part in changing the action genre. What's next, calling Chow Yun Fat a shitty actor because almost all of his American films were sub par?
DOR: I don't mean to get on your case here but...b, 21 b, 21"Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" is the only Ang Lee film that isn't Western. Even a film like "Eat Drink Man Woman" or "Lust/Caution" are very Western in terms of their themes, locale, etc. Modern Taipei or pre-WWII Shanghai are pretty much "Western" cities by any definition you could apply except geographic. b, 21b, 21And if we're going with geography, then Ang Lee's "American output" began with his first two films: "Pushing Hands" and "The Wedding Banquet" are both set in New York City and the very narrative of both films depends on them having an American context. They're American films, certainly more so than a Jane Austen adaptation. b, 21b, 21The only thing they lack, by comparison, are White leads. So maybe when you say "American output" what you're actually saying is "films with White people."b, 21b, 21In that respect, you can divide Lee's films into two categories: films with mostly Chinese leads or films with mostly White American or British leads. But thematically, that doesn't make sense since a film like "Eat Drink Man Woman" probably has a lot more in common with something like "Sense and Sensibility" than it does "Crouching Tiger".
As for Woo - I think it's perfectly fair to point out his American films are shitty. As people have pointed out, he came to the US at the HEIGHT of his HK film career. The idea that the US was some kind of retirement trip makes no sense relative to how many films he's actually made here.b, 21b, 21But worst? No way.
Quote:h, 21b, 21DOR: I don't mean to get on your case here but...b, 21 b, 21"Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" is the only Ang Lee film that isn't Western. Even a film like "Eat Drink Man Woman" or "Lust/Caution" are very Western in terms of their themes, locale, etc. Modern Taipei or pre-WWII Shanghai are pretty much "Western" cities by any definition you could apply except geographic. b, 21b, 21And if we're going with geography, then Ang Lee's "American output" began with his first two films: "Pushing Hands" and "The Wedding Banquet" are both set in New York City and the very narrative of both films depends on them having an American context. They're American films, certainly more so than a Jane Austen adaptation. b, 21b, 21The only thing they lack, by comparison, are White leads. So maybe when you say "American output" what you're actually saying is "films with White people."b, 21b, 21In that respect, you can divide Lee's films into two categories: films with mostly Chinese leads or films with mostly White American or British leads. But thematically, that doesn't make sense since a film like "Eat Drink Man Woman" probably has a lot more in common with something like "Sense and Sensibility" than it does "Crouching Tiger". b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I agree with this, but only in part. I don't think that Crouching Tiger was made with an Asian audience in mind. It was a kind of homage to the Taiwanese Wuxia films of the late 60's & 70's, which is very cool because I like those movies, but, to me, Crouching Tiger was made to cater to western tastes, like most of these swordplay epics. I'm not mad at 'em though because I do like these movies - Crouching, Hero, House Of Flying Daggers, etc... If Crouching Tiger was made for a Chinese audience then they should have taken care to make sure that all the leads spoke proper Mandarin. Michelle Yeoh is from Malaysia. Yun-Fat Chow is from HK. They really don't speak proper Mandarin and it showed. They spoke so badly that they should have been dubbed. Andy Lau speaks Mandarin pretty well & he was still dubbed in House Of Flying daggers. Also, I'd say that Sense & Sensibility has more in common with Crouching Tiger than it does with Touch Of Zen or the other Wuxia films that it's modeled after - repression, strict moral/social codes, generational traditions at conflict with modern sensibilities. Its essentially Sense & Sensibilty with Asian people flying around.
re: "worst director of all time" ... while I already admitted to useb, 21of hyperbole to try to get this thread popping (and it worked!), I alsob, 21have to point out my personal criteria for naming a person the "worst"b, 21at something, and why Woo would at least have to be considered, in myb, 21mind. See, I don't generally consider the worst person in a creative fieldb, 21to be the least talented, or the one who makes the most horrible movies even.b, 21I generally consider people who are honestly talented, or who have shownb, 21serious potential, yet continue to make bad/lazy/unwatchable/laughable b, 21pieces of "art" much worse than those who just don't know any better orb, 21don't have the talent within them. It's why, say, Metallica are worse thanb, 21Limp Bizkit: you know Limp Bizkit couldn't make a good album if they tried b, 21their hardest and put everything they had into it, yet Metallica have shownb, 21the ability to make good music, and still insist on cranking out drivel.b, 21b, 21So, did Woo make some great, entertaining and well-crafted films in HK?b, 21Absolutely. But the fact that he decided to just keep making the same filmb, 21over and over, and even more so once he came to Hollywood, with the sameb, 21wooden characters, sub-plots, visual gimmickery and action sequences inb, 21film after film, when we all KNOW he has the potential to make a decentb, 21movie that breaks this mold, is why he, in my opinion, is a candidate forb, 21W.O.A.T.
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