John Woo: Worst Director of All Time?

SoulOnIce

Watching Hard Target for a laugh, and all the awful Woo-ismsb, 21are in place: pointless slow-motion with slide guitar soundtrack, inaneb, 21close-ups - especially of facial parts, absolute cartoon characterizations,b, 21extrememly corny sentimentality between the violence, etc ...b, 21b, 21Mission Impossible 2 may have been the worst Hollywood big budgetb, 21film I've ever seen, and pretty much every bad thing about it was an obviousb, 21John Woo stylization. Even Tom Cruise can be watchable in a decent film,b, 21but in that terdfest he was exposed, thanks to the heavy heavy hands of Woo.b, 21b, 21I mean, look, The Killer was fun, even Hardboiled was ... butb, 21these Hollywood films are just awful. Only Face-Off really worked asb, 21just over-the-top goofy camp fun. Almost everything else is unwatchable.b, 21b, 21Can anybody prove me wrong?

SoulOnIce

hahaha! In Hard Target, the old Woo white pigeon[/b] just showed up!b, 21b, 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goat.gif" alt="" /1

SoulOnIce

Quote:h, 21b, 21 not the worst obviously. b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21this is far from obvious.b, 21b, 21 img src="http://thushti.com/images/white_pigeon_trnsp.gif"1

Ex-Boyfriend

Hard target is one of the best action films of the 90's. Stop speaking like a bitch.

dwyhajlo

I would proffer Michael Bay's name for worst director of all time.b, 21b, 21And you talk about Hardboiled and The Killer as though they are not awesome movies.

chrisflyer

Hard Target was my shit when I was like 9 years old. Haven't seen it in at least a decade, but I'm sure I'd still love it.b, 21b, 21"Why Chance?"b, 21"My momma took one."b, 21b, 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sn.gif" alt="" /1

SoulOnIce

Quote:h, 21b, 21Hard target is one of the best action films of the 90's. Stop speaking like a bitch. b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21I'd love you to say that to my face so I could stomp on yourb, 21throat and listen to you cry "like a bitch."

SoulOnIce

Quote:h, 21b, 21I would proffer Michael Bay's name for worst director of all time.b, 21b, 21And you talk about Hardboiled and The Killer as though they are not awesome movies. b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21I gave both of those films their props.b, 21b, 21And Michael Bay would be a candidate, but Woo's insistence onb, 21putting the same stupid scenes in movie after movie (white dove/pigeon,b, 21two guys on opposite sides of a wall spinning out and shooting at eachb, 21other from 2 feet away, long slow motion scene of people staring at eachb, 21other from 200 feet away, etc) may put him over the top for me.

SoulOnIce

Quote:h, 21b, 21Hard Target was my shit when I was like 9 years old.b, 21 Haven't seen it in at least a decade, but I'm sure I'd still love it.b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21Hey, look, I enjoyed the shit out of this movie tonight.b, 21b, 21I was laughing my ass off watching it, pure entertainment.b, 21b, 21When Lance Hendrickson pulls the fuse out of the grenade andb, 21goes "haha!" only to see it start sparking and goes "uh oh!"b, 21I was nearly in tears with laughter.b, 21b, 21Unfortunately, none of this convinces me Woo is anything but a hack.b, 21b, 21Bad directors can make enjoyable films, but I usually feel I am laughingb, 21AT Woo's films, not with them - although maybe he really has his tongue inb, 21cheek throughout his entire career ...

Ex-Boyfriend

Soulonice is one these dudes who watches these black and white films with the wack old time ladies looking trash and then says shit like "Oh she is just electric in the role. So demure. So refined. You know, its because they left things to the imagination that they are so much sexier than contemporary fare"b, 21b, 21SHUT THE F*ck UP, SOULONICE. You're talking pure bullshit on that one. If I want things left to the imagination I can use my imagination at home and not waste my money. When I go to a film I want to see and hear shit. Seeing and hearing shit are what films are. What kind of failboy sees the sex scene in desperado between hayek and that melanie grithith dude and says " damn, I wish they had left more to the imagination". No, they say "F*ck my imagination. They should've made that scene 30 minutes long". That said i'm almost glad that aint show nothing in those b/w films because ole girls in those were usually chubby faced and not at all hot. As far as I can make out raquel welsh was the first hot chick to star in a film and before that they were all katherine hepburn type bitches that pretentious losers like SoulonIce pretend to find attractive.

SoulOnIce

What the fuck are you babbling about?b, 21b, 21You have to be a) 15 years old b) mentally handicapped or c) both.b, 21b, 21The most amusing thing about you is your belief that you are somehowb, 21learned or able to make coherent arguments, when in fact you can barelyb, 21read or write the English language beyond a 6th grade level, and it isb, 21painfully clear to everyone but you that you have no idea what you areb, 21talking about a good 90% of the time. You fucking toy.

thrope

come on nowb, 21b, 21uwe bollb, 21paul anderson (the resident evil one)b, 21renny harlinb, 21jan de bontb, 21b, 21b, 21all worseb, 21b, 21b, 21the problem is, im an unabashed michael bay fan. might be the only one in the world. dude is good at what he does, it just has little to no value below the surface.

roisto

Umm, what? Woo's work in Hollywood may not be anything to write home about, but Hardboiled and The Killer are CLASSIC action films. Woo's movies are obviously not for you, but equaling that with him being the worst director ever is really not a good look.b, 21b, 21First time I've agreed with Dolo.b, 21b, 21

Quote:h, 21b, 21Watching Hard Target for a laugh, and all the awful Woo-ismsb, 21are in place: pointless slow-motion with slide guitar soundtrack, inaneb, 21close-ups - especially of facial parts, absolute cartoon characterizations,b, 21extrememly corny sentimentality between the violence, etc ...b, 21b, 21Mission Impossible 2 may have been the worst Hollywood big budgetb, 21film I've ever seen, and pretty much every bad thing about it was an obviousb, 21John Woo stylization. Even Tom Cruise can be watchable in a decent film,b, 21but in that terdfest he was exposed, thanks to the heavy heavy hands of Woo.b, 21b, 21I mean, look, The Killer was fun, even Hardboiled was ... butb, 21these Hollywood films are just awful. Only Face-Off really worked asb, 21just over-the-top goofy camp fun. Almost everything else is unwatchable.b, 21b, 21Can anybody prove me wrong? b, 21b, 21h, 21

hertzhog

I like Woo's HK output about as much as the next guy, but he is probably the most unsophisticated of all noteworthy directors (which is ironic, considering how highly he rates Melville). I mean, making the white pigeon, perhaps the most overused symbol in world history, your trademark? And while Face-Off is definitely fun in a completely over-the-top way, I'm never sure if Woo's excesses are intentional. Oh yeah, Hard Target is utter shit, even by Van Damme standards. In other words, I agree with much what SOI says.b, 21b, 21On a side-note, it's always been funny to me how these non-US guys like Woo, Harlin, Wolfgang Petersen, Roland Emmerich come to Hollywood and end up making some of the most stereotypically American, mainstream drivel.

DocMcCoy

I like Woo's HK stuff, but he's essentially remaking the same film over and over, and this is true of his Hollywood work as well; recurring themes of duality, redemption, death & rebirth, honour, and of course good & evil, with tons of Catholic symbolism into the bargain. A lot of his Hollywood stuff does seem a bit hacky, and many of the devices he use may not have seemed quite so cliched in 80s HK as they do now.b, 21b, 21To address hertzhog's sidenote, the much-derided Paul Verhoeven is the only Euro director of any note (I'm excluding Brits like the Scotts and them here) who's come to America and managed to make films with a European sensibility (albeit not an obvious one) within the Hollywood system. For long periods, Basic Instinct is paced like a European movie, and even his action flicks like Robocop, Starship Troopers and Total Recall don't follow the established patterns of most Hollywood action flicks, and are actually a bit more character-driven than normal. I think Verhoeven's a great director. His early Dutch movies like Soldier of Orange, Flesh + Blood and Spetters are worth checking too. Spetters might be a bit rich for some people's blood, though...b, 21b, 21I like Showgirls as well. Hate me now.

bongos

Personally, I don't know what all the hype is surrounding this guy. I'm not a big fan of cop action movies, but because of the hype I'd though I give Hard Boiled a chance...............and I it was a chance that I lived to regret. I mean was stunned at the fact that it so incredibly cheesy. Like I could not believe it. The lead dude's name was tequila and he played at a jazz club. I mean like every single aspect was pretty bad. I don't know why people get all worked up about John Woo. It's all pretty cheesy, and some third rate asian ripoff of bad american movies.

Okem

Did Woo not change the action movie game with his trademark balletic shoot-outs? Or am I wrong for believing this.b, 21b, 21I've always got the impression he was a bit of a one-trick pony. So it came as no surprise that his Hollywood films have sucked, but I never really expected anything from them. b, 21I hoped that, with his return to Asia he could recapture his old form, but the epic Red Cliff was unfortunately pretty meh.

Electrode

I like both mindless 90s shoot-em-up movies and "unattractive" actresses in black and white films. Better yet, I like actresses who peaked in the 40s who, in their more money desperate times, took shitty 70s and 80s sci-fi, horror and TV movie roles. I'm so conflicted.

funky16corners

Quote:h, 21b, 21Soulonice is one these dudes who watches these black and white films with the wack old time ladies looking trash and then says shit like "Oh she is just electric in the role. So demure. So refined. You know, its because they left things to the imagination that they are so much sexier than contemporary fare"b, 21b, 21SHUT THE F*ck UP, SOULONICE. You're talking pure bullshit on that one. If I want things left to the imagination I can use my imagination at home and not waste my money. When I go to a film I want to see and hear shit. Seeing and hearing shit are what films are. What kind of failboy sees the sex scene in desperado between hayek and that melanie grithith dude and says " damn, I wish they had left more to the imagination". No, they say "F*ck my imagination. They should've made that scene 30 minutes long". That said i'm almost glad that aint show nothing in those b/w films because ole girls in those were usually chubby faced and not at all hot. As far as I can make out raquel welsh was the first hot chick to star in a film and before that they were all katherine hepburn type bitches that pretentious losers like SoulonIce pretend to find attractive. b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21b, 21The mating cry of the free range moron....

overpriced_artisan_butter

Bullet in the Head is a great film.

Frank

Quote:h, 21b, 21Bullet in the Head is a great film. b, 21b, 21h, 21

img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cos3ve.gif" alt="" /1b, 21b, 21Killer was also good but Bullet in the Head was pretty much mind blowing at the time. I think I saw it on a film festival the year it came out and it really did change the game, there simply hadn't been anything like it before. I found it very surprising to see how unbearably bad his US releases were but then it's the same as with music, very few manage to continue being relevant for more than a couple of years.

SoulOnIce

Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21First time I've agreed with Dolo.b, 21b, 21 b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21That's your cross to bear.

DOR

Birdman9

Quote:h, 21b, 21What the fuck are you babbling about?b, 21b, 21You have to be a) 15 years old b) mentally handicapped or c) both.b, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21The proper term is RETARDED. In Dolo's case, it's f*cking RETARDED.

overpriced_artisan_butter

Quote:h, 21b, 21 raquel welsh was the first hot chick to star in a film b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21Wow, a man(?) who would NOT blap Louise Brooks, Gloria Grahame, Gene Tierney or Marilyn Monroe!

funky16corners

Quote:h, 21b, 21

Quote:h, 21b, 21 raquel welsh was the first hot chick to star in a film b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21Wow, a man(?) who would NOT blap Louise Brooks, Gloria Grahame, Gene Tierney or Marilyn Monroe! b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21b, 21Who said he was a man?b, 21b, 21b, 21b/wb, 21b, 21b, 21I used to work with a guy that refused to watch black & white movies.

SoulOnIce

It's fairly obvious that Dolo is a virgin, no matter what his age is.b, 21b, 21Also that he is a big hairy pussy.b, 21b, 21b, 21By the way, despite ragging on Hard Target in this thread,b, 21I have to say that Lance Henrickson totally rules, and was the mainb, 21reason I left the movie on. However, if I had to choose between Hardb, 21Target and Stone Cold for my mindless Lance Henrickson action flickb, 21fix, the Boz and his masterpiece would win every time.

Birdman9

Quote:h, 21b, 21It's fairly obvious that Dolo is a virgin, no matter what his age is.b, 21b, 21Also that he is a big hairy pussy.b, 21b, 21b, 21By the way, despite ragging on Hard Target in this thread,b, 21I have to say that Lance Henrickson totally rules, and was the mainb, 21reason I left the movie on. However, if I had to choose between Hardb, 21Target and Stone Cold for my mindless Lance Henrickson action flickb, 21fix, the Boz and his masterpiece would win every time. b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21I am a big John Woo fan up through Hard Boiled, and I have heard that there is a director's cut of Hard Target that is actually worth watching for the action scenes, but take that for what it is worth. I blame Van Damme as much as Woo for the failure of that film, at least for finishing the circle and making it COMPLETELY unwatchable with his irritating presence. I still like Face/Off, if grudgingly, but I too resent the constant recycling of Woo-isms, but at least this had a ridiculous premise that works on some weird level.b, 21b, 21MI 2, Broken Arrow, Windtalkers, Paycheck, and the Philip K. Dick/Nic Cage movie, did ANYONE like any of these? I couldn't make it through 20 minutes of MI2, BA or Windtalkers, so I can't imagine why I would want to see anything else Woo does unless he reunites with Chow Yun Fat.

SoulOnIce

Also, Wilfred Brimley cajun accent = PURE COMEDY GOLD

davesrecords

Quote:h, 21b, 21

Quote:h, 21b, 21

Quote:h, 21b, 21 raquel welsh was the first hot chick to star in a film b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21Wow, a man(?) who would NOT blap Louise Brooks, Gloria Grahame, Gene Tierney or Marilyn Monroe! b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21b, 21Who said he was a man?b, 21b, 21b, 21b/wb, 21b, 21b, 21I used to work with a guy that refused to watch black & white movies. b, 21b, 21h, 21

b, 21b, 21everytime i see a john woo film i always curse kurosawa. why oh why did he have to come up with slow motion ? somebody as a joke should make a movie that is nothing but slow motion, oh wait john woo did that already! img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /1b, 21b, 21i hate woo films but michael bey makes john woo look like fricking antonioni.

mannybolone

I think Bey is a hack supreme - "Transformers" was f*cking unwatchable and anyone who'd defend that film on its merits of *filmmaking* has instantly suspect taste though its merits of a film about giant, transforming robots is hard to argue with. b, 21b, 21HOWEVER, Bey, can, on occasion, make for something that actually passes legitimately for entertainment. Movies like "Bad Boys II", "Con Air" and even that colossal shit pile known as "Armageddon" are fun to watch. The same, I fear, cannot be said about some of Woo's poorer American films which are so drowning in unnecessary melodrama ("Face/Off") or just lackluster pacing ("Broken Arrow") or everything-wrong-and-then-some ("MI:2") that they cease to be fun. b, 21b, 21That all said, I think SOI's pronouncement that Woo is the "worst director ever" is unjustifiably over-the-top. There's a ton of badness to go around; Woo isn't anywhere near the top. That's like calling Brando the worst actor ever b/c his later roles sucked shit.