DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
What I find bewildering about this is the assumption which seems to be driving the Yes campaign, whereby if Group B is granted greater freedom, then the rights and freedoms of Group A are somehow diminished or otherwise restricted. It's hardly as if you're dividing up a pie or a stack of money or anything else finite, and that because someone now gets something they didn't have before, then someone else therefore has to get less. It astonishes me that there are people who believe that the endorsement of "gay marriage" means that conventional heterosexual partnerships somehow become "wrong". Nobody's trying to take anything away from the Yes to 8 people, are they?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121What the F*ck happened, California?? b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1 b, 21b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Modesto, Bakersfield, Gorman, Fresno, Eureka, Fountain Valley, Valenica, and all their homies happenedb,121b,121and although I want to put all the blame on the more rural/ conservative heavy areas I know a lot of people here in Los Angeles still hold onto the belief that homosexuality is a sin and don't feel they should permit them anything. b, 21b, 21My mailman told me 2 days ago that he feels discriminated against just cause he has to watch them walk together and can't do anything about it.b,121b,121homophobia is nowhere near dead
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121What the F*ck happened, California and Florida?? b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1 b, 21b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Amendment 2 in Florida passed w/ 62%. I was optimistic due to Florida having a 60% majority rule for an amendment to pass. We still have a lot of work to do.
What's terribly sad about this is that, by all reports, it appears Black voters were instrumental in passing prop 8. Energized by Obama to get out the vote, and rejecting gay marriage at a 2-1 margin.
SD has a lot of rural areas that voted yes. My lesbian hillbilly coworker was almost in tears this morning.b,121b,121b,121out in la mesa is where the yes on 8 signs were. only mexicans had the yes on 8 stuff in my nighborhood, and i think its because maybe they are catholic or something.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Sad, I don't know. Remember that we elected Kindergarten Cop as our governor though. b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Much as I found the recall process to be a complete travesty of the democratic process...I can't definitely say that Arnold has actually been that bad of a governor. He's shown flexibility, bipartisanship skills (albeit only once he realized he couldn't govern otherwise) and let's face it: he's charismatic to enough voters and as we just learned yesterday - charisma goes a long way. So the fact that Californians voted for Gov. Terminator isn't really a sign that we're all batshit crazy compared to, oh, the rest of the American electorate. b, 21b, 21As for what happened in CA? To echo some insightful points already made, start with a href=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-california-results,0,1293859.htmlstory?view=8&tab=0&fnum=01this map.b,121b,121The main things that stand out to me is that Southern California, with the exception of Santa Barbara County, came out in favor of Prop 8. This shouldn't have been a massive surprise but if the measure was going to be defeated, it would have had to come down to the huge population base down here going against it. No one should be surprised to see the results from the greater Bay Area; I was heartened to see Mono and Alpine counties coming against it - must be all that liberal Tahoe/Sierra Club types!b, 21b, 21But look at CNN's exit polling data (take with grain of salt though their overall %s are pretty close to the actual result).b,121b,121Demographically, this measure was being supported by all types, ESPECIALLY African Americans as I think JP pointed out, as well as Latinos (though by smaller margins) and Whites. (I'm proud to say that Asian Americans seemed to vote against it). The higher voter turnout of those voter of color bases for Obama, ironically, may also be what helped fuel Prop 8's success. b,121b,121That's more than ironic, actually; it's tragic. People keep talking about the history of the moment last night but even though 40 years after the end of Jim Crow, we can elect a Black president, 40 years after the end of anti-miscegenation bans, we're actually INSTITUTING anti-gay marriage bans. b,121b,121The one thing I'm heartened by is that, even eight years ago, I was saying to a friend that I didn't think gay marriage was going to be possible in my lifetime but now I realize how cynical and out of touch that belief was. Yeah, gay marriage is under attack but while 52% voted in favor of Prop 8, almost half the state voted against it. And this movement has happened remarkably fast by political standards. I think the losses of today don't guarantee the future. Gay marriage will become a reality sooner than later, especially as more people continue to organize and educate in favor of its acceptance.b,121b,121That and the Supreme Court might lend a helping hand.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121That's more than ironic, actually; it's tragic. People keep talking about the history of the moment last night but even though 40 years after the end of Jim Crow, we can elect a Black president, 40 years after the end of anti-miscegenation bans, we're actually INSTITUTING anti-gay marriage bans. b,121 b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121That's what i keep thinking about too. It's baffling that we can make progress in one area and still fall behind in another area, which is relatively the same issue (denying rights to certain people). b,121b,121I actually started seeing more and more signs for yes on 8 in the past few days. It made me sad. b,121b,121Willie Brown was on cnn today and he made a comment about prop 8. Paraphrasing him, he said that the result is proof of the power of campaigning. He said that the yes on 8 people really put in work and hit areas that were not being reached and gathered support. He actually compared the yes on 8 campaign to the obama campaign, in their approach to reach everyone and get the word out and gather supporters. I guess he was basically saying "the yes on 8 people worked harder."b,121b,121Jerry Brown, Oakland's mayor, keeps saying that the marriages already performed will likely remain legal, but no future marriages. We'll see.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121That's more than ironic, actually; it's tragic. People keep talking about the history of the moment last night but even though 40 years after the end of Jim Crow, we can elect a Black president, 40 years after the end of anti-miscegenation bans, we're actually INSTITUTING anti-gay marriage bans. b,121 b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121That's what i keep thinking about too. It's baffling that we can make progress in one area and still fall behind in another area, which is relatively the same issue (denying rights to certain people). b,121b,121I actually started seeing more and more signs for yes on 8 in the past few days. It made me sad. b,121b,121Willie Brown was on cnn today and he made a comment about prop 8. Paraphrasing him, he said that the result is proof of the power of campaigning. He said that the yes on 8 people really put in work and hit areas that were not being reached and gathered support. He actually compared the yes on 8 campaign to the obama campaign, in their approach to reach everyone and get the word out and gather supporters. I guess he was basically saying "the yes on 8 people worked harder."b,121b,121Jerry Brown, Oakland's mayor, keeps saying that the marriages already performed will likely remain legal, but no future marriages. We'll see. b, 21b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121I think Willie Brown is probably right - I think many - myself included - just thought Prop 8 was a joke, esp. in 2008, and was doomed to fail from the start but the yes on 8 campaign hustled hard, not just with ads, but with on the ground canvassing and organizing. b, 21b, 21But I think what we're also seeing here, as many have noted, is homophobia is still an entrenched part of our society, especially amongst Blacks and Latinos, the less educated and the poor. There's still much work to be done.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121My mailman told me 2 days ago that he feels discriminated against just cause he has to watch them walk together and can't do anything about it.b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121If he were invited to a threesome, would that make him feel better about it?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121This is sad. Reminds me of 1994. Prop 187 anybody? b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Here's something worth noting: it's like people forgot Prop 22 already! That was just in 2000 (and won by a much wider margin).b,121b,121Look at what's happened in those eight intervening years. The narrow of anti-gay marriage support has declined in california from over 60% to 54%; there's no reason to think in another few years, that won't fall under 50%.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121What the F*ck happened, California?? b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121Seriously, I was watching the news and the guy they interviewed representing Yes on 8 was a joke. The fact that people are willing to go out and campaign for the denial of someone's rights sets us back half a century +. I am ecstatic that Obama will be our next president but I'm also saddened to live in a state that thinks we should be discriminating against others (by law).b,121b,121As Patrick Bateman, I mean, Gavin Newsom said, California will be the first state to use (write it in to) the constitution to take someone's rights away. b,121b,121It's totally fucked up logic, they believe they're "saving" marriage, saving it from what? Reality? This issue goes much deeper than marriage between two men or two women but I'll leave that alone. That's a whole nother thread in itself.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121This is sad. Reminds me of 1994. Prop 187 anybody? b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Here's something worth noting: it's like people forgot Prop 22 already! That was just in 2000 (and won by a much wider margin).b,121b,121Look at what's happened in those eight intervening years. The narrow of anti-gay marriage support has declined in california from over 60% to 54%; there's no reason to think in another few years, that won't fall under 50%. b, 21b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Wow, I was in Utah from 1996-2003. I didn't even know that. An optimistic viewpoint, but I guess that's all we have.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121This is sad. Reminds me of 1994. Prop 187 anybody? b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Here's something worth noting: it's like people forgot Prop 22 already! That was just in 2000 (and won by a much wider margin).b, 21b, 21Look at what's happened in those eight intervening years. The narrow of anti-gay marriage support has declined in california from over 60% to 54%; there's no reason to think in another few years, that won't fall under 50%. b, 21b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Wow, I was in Utah from 1996-2003. I didn't even know that. An optimistic viewpoint, but I guess that's all we have. b, 21b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121For real, I think people need to take a longer view on this. b, 21b, 21In eight years, the margin of opposition to gay marriage has decreased I>five fold[/i]. And the beauty of our stupid initiative system is that we could put another proposition on next year's ballot designed to roll back Prop 8. It may not win but I think, over the long term, the support is there. I>Ten years ago[/i], gay marriage didn't even exist in any real way. The backlash against gay marriage has been a reactionary, immediate kneejerk but I think there's every reason to think that within the next ten years, some of those attitudes can easily be changed and reverted back. Queerness simply isn't going back into the closet. Not in our society. And whatever legal setbacks there may be, there's no reason to think they will remotely be permanent. b,121b,121I mean, a Black man just became President. Ok? Feel me? There's a lot of things that are possible with the right kind of organizing (and I do think this is where Prop 8's opponents failed. They were out-hustled).
Quote:/font1h,121b,121so true they used text book examples of typical grass roots republikkkan tactics, fear and propaganda b, 21b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Beautifully played, if I may add. I mean, there were some straight-up BASTARDLY disinformation out there. Shameless shit but it seemed to be effective. b, 21b, 21LA Times was suggesting too that the "Yes on 8" lawn signs may have been effective in a way that campaign signs typically are not: they reassured people that it was "ok" to vote yes. Who knows how much this really played a role - I think homophobia is easy enough to tap into without advertising but it is notable how many people here talked about seeing those Yes on 8 signs everywhere.
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Yes on 8 voters are paranoid that if gay marriage is legal their children might end up gay. The advertising was laser focused on stoking this fear.
I read somewhere they are posting a number of around 70% of African Americans voted for prop 8.
The irony of that is kinda sad.
Yeah, the yeson8ers were talking up the effect that all the Obama voters (in their case latino and african american) had on this vote - and how they tend to have a "traditional view" on marriage. It's kind of fucked to see us, in the same election, make a huge step in diversity yet take another step back. Unfortunately, this is where religion comes in a fucks everything up, in my opinion. This is a religiously motivated proposition, hands down - church > state
"If they want to legalize gay marriage, what they should do is bring an initiative themselves and ask the people to approve it," said Frank Schubert, co-chairman of the Proposition 8 campaign. "But they don't. They go behind the people's back to the courts and try and force an agenda on the rest of society."
I don't want to beat a dead horse but that's called projection. the only people with an 'agenda' were the people who pushed prop 8.
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I read somewhere they are posting a number of around 70% of African Americans voted for prop 8.
The irony of that is kinda sad.
Yeah, the yeson8ers were talking up the effect that all the Obama voters (in their case latino and african american) had on this vote - and how they tend to have a "traditional view" on marriage. It's kind of fucked to see us, in the same election, make a huge step in diversity yet take another step back. Unfortunately, this is where religion comes in a fucks everything up, in my opinion. This is a religiously motivated proposition, hands down - church > state
By the way: here we go: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaylegal6-2008nov06,0,220763.story
"If they want to legalize gay marriage, what they should do is bring an initiative themselves and ask the people to approve it," said Frank Schubert, co-chairman of the Proposition 8 campaign. "But they don't. They go behind the people's back to the courts and try and force an agenda on the rest of society."
I don't want to beat a dead horse but that's called projection. the only people with an 'agenda' were the people who pushed prop 8.
Which religion is considered the most homophobic?