Quite simply this country is tired of 20+ years of Bush/Clinton. (Was I the only one who noticed when Bill said that after Hillary wins he and Bush Sr. would travel the world to "smooth over" all the damage GWB has caused....Daddy Bush said....."the fuck I am")
It's time for a change.... a big change.
BTW....for the umpteenth time I'll state that my "Religious Right" self supports Obama.
wait, so we shouldn't vote for Hillary...simply because her husband is a former president? thats all you got?
do you even know why you are supporting Obama? what does he offer that hillary does not? a new face?
I can't stand Hilary. Not because she's a woman, and not because she is a clinton, and not because she is clever.
But I also have a hard time articulating what it is that I can't stand about her. The best example is when she changed her accent to some weird southern/black hybrid thing and did the whole "I don't feel no ways tired..." I remember the first time I saw that my jaw dropped.
If Obama and Clinton's policies were exactly the same, I might still side with Obama because he is slightly less seasoned in Washington, less time to make real enemies (which Clinton surely has in spades) and he's not the Democratic Party's prize horse. Now granted, if he really gets the votes that it seems he will, the Party machine will get right behind him, hell they already are... all I can say is that an Obama presidency would be won on the backs of real people who believe, he will be somewhat beholden to them, I get the Gut Instinct that Clinton is willing to ride in on the Dem's ship and continue partisan business as usual.
It's really not about the positions, which are both centrist, but about my Gut Instinct that one person might come at these problems with a fresh perspective - or at very least, the desire to find one.
So there are some valid reasons not to vote for her mentioned above.
But only Johnny comes even close to explaining the blatant haterade.
Weaksauce.
Edit: And Rock, don't take it personal. I was just reacting to you namedropping Satan and Hitler. All i really want is people to elaborate on the Hillary issue.
My sarcastic remark about Satan and Hitler was as ridiculous as, and in response to, the Obama is related to Cheney & Bush idiocy...then again, I guess the Religious Right think we're ALL related on some Adam & Eve bullshit.
Please do. I'd rather hear your personal reasons though.
You feel like the more times his name appears in print, the more credible he'll seem?
--Thinks that environmental problems are linked to "property rights" --Thinks the country will improve with abolishment of income tax --Wants to remove federal subsidies for public schools --advocated withdrawing membership in UN
these are all products of a limited intelligence and recipes for disaster.
My sarcastic remark about Satan and Hitler was as ridiculous as, and in response to, the Obama is related to Cheney & Bush idiocy...then again, I guess the Religious Right think we're ALL related on some Adam & Eve bullshit.
Hey, i didn't make that up. It was Cheney's wife who told some reporter.
this is called propaganda. they ran radio spots on hip hop stations during the last elections trying to convert blacks to the gop with the same garbage. one ad started out "hey girl, did you know MLK jr. was a republican?"
Quite simply this country is tired of 20+ years of Bush/Clinton. (Was I the only one who noticed when Bill said that after Hillary wins he and Bush Sr. would travel the world to "smooth over" all the damage GWB has caused....Daddy Bush said....."the fuck I am")
It's time for a change.... a big change.
BTW....for the umpteenth time I'll state that my "Religious Right" self supports Obama.
wait, so we shouldn't vote for Hillary...simply because her husband is a former president? thats all you got?
do you even know why you are supporting Obama? what does he offer that hillary does not? a new face?
It's no mystery that you are a Hillary supporter, and what some may view as, apologist.
Hillary can't win.....but obviously we'll have to wait until November for the "I told you so's".
Nothing I can say today will convince you I'm right.
I'm very patient.
And if I'm wrong, and come '09 we have President Clinton, I'll be the first to come here and say I was an idiot for thinking otherwise.
Save this post to hold me to my word, I know I will.
this is called propaganda. they ran radio spots on hip hop stations during the last elections trying to convert blacks to the gop with the same garbage. one ad started out "hey girl, did you know MLK jr. was a republican?"
And a Republican freed the slaves -- overlooking the facts that a)his letters show us that privately, Lincoln did not want to free the slaves, and did so for political reasons and b)in many ways at the time, the political climate was much different and the Republicans were not the party with the more conservative outlook (at the time, they were the party of higher income tax, larger federal government, larger education subsidies, etc etc).
If Obama and Clinton's policies were exactly the same, I might still side with Obama because he is slightly less seasoned in Washington, less time to make real enemies (which Clinton surely has in spades) and he's not the Democratic Party's prize horse. Now granted, if he really gets the votes that it seems he will, the Party machine will get right behind him, hell they already are... all I can say is that an Obama presidency would be won on the backs of real people who believe, he will be somewhat beholden to them, I get the Gut Instinct that Clinton is willing to ride in on the Dem's ship and continue partisan business as usual.
It's really not about the positions, which are both centrist, but about my Gut Instinct that one person might come at these problems with a fresh perspective - or at very least, the desire to find one.
^^^ this sounds like "i'd rather have a beer with obama". i also don't get how inexperience has suddenly become a virtue. hillary is certainly inexperienced at running things too (never a governor, mayor, the owner of a corporation) so is that a plus for her as well?
also, since when do democrats think that Bill Clinton was a bad prez? why are people using her experience as a first lady and her last name against her?? who was the last democrat that we liked more than Bill, JFK?
people don't just "disagree" or even "dislike" hilary. People HATE her with a passion. Nobody HATES Obama. I could see people voting republican just to keep hilary out, whereas I can't see that happening with Obama. Just like nobody HATES Romney, for example. And given the choice, I could see a lot of people who are sick and tired of bush voting for somebody like Romney rather than hilary.
I'm thinking if Obama makes it, the he'll probably take it all the way. If hilary makes it... its gonna be pretty close.
Thats just me talking out of my ass though. But I hear people talk, and its either "I like hilary" or "I Frickin' HATE HER". Seriously.
I can't stand Hilary. Not because she's a woman, and not because she is a clinton, and not because she is clever.
But I also have a hard time articulating what it is that I can't stand about her. The best example is when she changed her accent to some weird southern/black hybrid thing and did the whole "I don't feel no ways tired..." I remember the first time I saw that my jaw dropped.
She's disingenuous. Not that all politicians and most people aren't to some extent as well, but she doesn't hide it as well as most. People dislike her regardless of her politics the same way they liked McCain in 2000. He seemed genuine. She does not.
If Obama and Clinton's policies were exactly the same, I might still side with Obama because he is slightly less seasoned in Washington, less time to make real enemies (which Clinton surely has in spades) and he's not the Democratic Party's prize horse. Now granted, if he really gets the votes that it seems he will, the Party machine will get right behind him, hell they already are... all I can say is that an Obama presidency would be won on the backs of real people who believe, he will be somewhat beholden to them, I get the Gut Instinct that Clinton is willing to ride in on the Dem's ship and continue partisan business as usual.
It's really not about the positions, which are both centrist, but about my Gut Instinct that one person might come at these problems with a fresh perspective - or at very least, the desire to find one.
^^^ this sounds like "i'd rather have a beer with obama".
She's disingenuous. Not that all politicians and most people aren't to some extent as well, but she doesn't hide it as well as most. People dislike her regardless of her politics the same way they liked McCain in 2000. He seemed genuine. She does not.
...and with that its unanimous that people who dislike hillary don't know why they hate her, even when they think they do.
Do people think its a good or bad thing that if you never saw or heard Obama speak, you could read thousands and thousands of pages of his speeches and never know he was Black?
She's disingenuous. Not that all politicians and most people aren't to some extent as well, but she doesn't hide it as well as most. People dislike her regardless of her politics the same way they liked McCain in 2000. He seemed genuine. She does not.
...and with that its unanimous that people who dislike hillary don't know why they hate her, even when they think they do.
Do people think its a good or bad thing that if you never saw or heard Obama speak, you could read thousands and thousands of pages of his speeches and never know he was Black?
What do YOU think??
Should we read a Hillary speech and know it was written for a woman??
I just wrote a long post that got lost in the SS ether, but I haven't heard a single candidate address the issues that I'm concerned about:
# What they plan to do when the economy completely shits the bed? (Why are very few people discussing this nearly inevitable event?)
# Thoughts on increased funding of unrestricted science research and education to help recover from and thwart future aforementioned bed-shittings.
# When are we going to stop subsidizing both our own domestic farmers and multinational corporations for the same crops? Year after year, silos are filled with rotting edible biomass.(The could be extended beyond farming, but it seems like it should be more of a hot-button item with the mid-west crowd.)
# Do you think we could maybe get an open-source, transparent, searchable, minable repository for government information? Google just doesn't cut it with the odd, varied data sets you guys are using. I've heard Northrop Grumman could probably spare a few 1,000 programming man-hours. Better yet, maybe let the public design something for once?
# NAICS - Fail. Try again. This time think about the economy and business landscape as it stands today, not 50 years ago.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Hillary gives off a smug 'I know better than you' vibe that makes it easy to hate her
American Gut Instict: distrust of smart people!
It's all about the gut, dudes.
now rudy, you could have a beer with him.
Nah - that's why he's only polling well in Florida. He only plays to ex-New Yorkers, who hate New York, who think that it is still like 1989 or some shit and they'll get stuck up for their pocketbook after leaving their broadway show, and that Rudy CLEANED UP THE CITY.
Everyone else I've ever talked to thinks he's weird.
It reminds me a bit of the climate that gave Perot's bid some credibility: "We need an outsider... a rebel... someone who shoots from the hip and understands the plight of the common man. How about THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD?"
People are so desperate for a change from politics as usual that they'll settle for any lunatic who comes along.
He also allows conservatives to feel like they're "edgy" and "loose cannons," which is a feeling I imagine is hard to come by for right-wingers.
EDIT: I meant to tag those comments to the Ron Paul discussion, but some of the same thoughts apply to Rudy, too.
You do know that Ron Paul isn't just popping up out of nowhere? He's served in the US House of Representatives for ~20 years.
Hillary gives off a smug 'I know better than you' vibe that makes it easy to hate her
American Gut Instict: distrust of smart people!
It's all about the gut, dudes.
now rudy, you could have a beer with him.
Nah - that's why he's only polling well in Florida. He only plays to ex-New Yorkers, who hate New York, who think that it is still like 1989 or some shit and they'll get stuck up for their pocketbook after leaving their broadway show, and that Rudy CLEANED UP THE CITY.
Everyone else I've ever talked to thinks he's weird.
It reminds me a bit of the climate that gave Perot's bid some credibility: "We need an outsider... a rebel... someone who shoots from the hip and understands the plight of the common man. How about THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD?"
People are so desperate for a change from politics as usual that they'll settle for any lunatic who comes along.
He also allows conservatives to feel like they're "edgy" and "loose cannons," which is a feeling I imagine is hard to come by for right-wingers.
EDIT: I meant to tag those comments to the Ron Paul discussion, but some of the same thoughts apply to Rudy, too.
You do know that Ron Paul isn't just popping up out of nowhere? He's served in the US House of Representatives for ~20 years.
Sure, the Perot comparison isn't an exact fit, which is why I said "reminds me a bit...". And I'm fully aware that most people consider my candidate, Kucinich, equally looney and/or marginal.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
...and with that its unanimous that people who dislike hillary don't know why they hate her, even when they think they do.
Do people think its a good or bad thing that if you never saw or heard Obama speak, you could read thousands and thousands of pages of his speeches and never know he was Black?
Do people think its a good or bad thing that if you never saw or heard Obama speak, you could read thousands and thousands of pages of his speeches and never know he was Black?
What do YOU think??
Should we read a Hillary speech and know it was written for a woman??
Yes, well, hopefully most of them are written, at least in part, "by a woman". We know that Bill wrote most of his important speeches, or so he claims in his autobiography.
She takes less of a risk by talking about the strides she is making as a woman because gender discrimination, although obviously prevalent, is not as ugly and hidden as racism, not to mention the lingering effects of slavery that are still an issue. Obama is a leader but definitely not a Black leader. He talks about his race when it is convenient (like amongst Blacks at Black churches) but when's the last time he said anything newsworthy about current issues that are facing Blacks. Edwards, is far and away, the candidate that speaks to issues that are disproportionately effecting Blacks in a negative way. As of a month ago, Hillary was also leading over Obama in a national poll of African Americans. What does that say about the significance of possibly electing Obama as the first Black president? To me, it doesn't say much at all.
Cue the Obama is not black enough lines...
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Sure, the Perot comparison isn't an exact fit, which is why I said "reminds me a bit...".
Quirky, oldish, idealistic, little white men from Texas-related.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
He talks about his race when it is convenient (like amongst Blacks at Black churches) but when's the last time he said anything newsworthy about current issues that are facing Blacks.
You don't know when to quit, do you?
The war and the economy and crime, issues that I sure remember Obama speaking on when I saw him speak last year, definitely are black issues, as they are issues for anyone.
You are the one placing expectations on Obama to be "more black" according to your notions of what "more black" means. And that, sir, is your problem...not Obama's.
Please do. I'd rather hear your personal reasons though.
You feel like the more times his name appears in print, the more credible he'll seem?
--Thinks that environmental problems are linked to "property rights" --Thinks the country will improve with abolishment of income tax --Wants to remove federal subsidies for public schools --advocated withdrawing membership in UN
these are all products of a limited intelligence and recipes for disaster.
Ron Paul supporters have an incredible ability to stfu when its comes to discussing issues beyond "less government yo!" If you really think corporations should be in charge of the environment and the federal government should have no say in schools, man the fuck up and say it.
I would vote for her, but keith, half the population really does hate Hillary, and will turn out to prove it. You also can't deny her special ability to come off as disingenuous, and to me, those two reasons equal a degree of fate tempting I'm personally not willing to risk in a year the Dem's should have a cake walk...
KVH......Please inform us all who the 2-3 true "Black leaders" are in the U.S. in 2008???
And for the record, I want a president(and a government)that is not going to do what is best for black people, or women, or dwarves, or homosexuals, or rednecks, or snarky lawyers.
I want one that will do what's best for America as a whole.
Comments
first of all, times have changed since the days of the southern dixiecrats, and second, mlk was a democrat who publicly supported jfk and johnson.
For all the reasons already cited by others here. Want me to repeat them all?
wait, so we shouldn't vote for Hillary...simply because her husband is a former president? thats all you got?
do you even know why you are supporting Obama? what does he offer that hillary does not? a new face?
But I also have a hard time articulating what it is that I can't stand about her. The best example is when she changed her accent to some weird southern/black hybrid thing and did the whole "I don't feel no ways tired..." I remember the first time I saw that my jaw dropped.
It's really not about the positions, which are both centrist, but about my Gut Instinct that one person might come at these problems with a fresh perspective - or at very least, the desire to find one.
My sarcastic remark about Satan and Hitler was as ridiculous as, and in response to, the Obama is related to Cheney & Bush idiocy...then again, I guess the Religious Right think we're ALL related on some Adam & Eve bullshit.
You feel like the more times his name appears in print, the more credible he'll seem?
--Thinks that environmental problems are linked to "property rights"
--Thinks the country will improve with abolishment of income tax
--Wants to remove federal subsidies for public schools
--advocated withdrawing membership in UN
these are all products of a limited intelligence and recipes for disaster.
Hey, i didn't make that up. It was Cheney's wife who told some reporter.
this is called propaganda. they ran radio spots on hip hop stations during the last elections trying to convert blacks to the gop with the same garbage. one ad started out "hey girl, did you know MLK jr. was a republican?"
It's no mystery that you are a Hillary supporter, and what some may view as, apologist.
Hillary can't win.....but obviously we'll have to wait until November for the "I told you so's".
Nothing I can say today will convince you I'm right.
I'm very patient.
And if I'm wrong, and come '09 we have President Clinton, I'll be the first to come here and say I was an idiot for thinking otherwise.
Save this post to hold me to my word, I know I will.
Fair enough??
And a Republican freed the slaves -- overlooking the facts that a)his letters show us that privately, Lincoln did not want to free the slaves, and did so for political reasons and b)in many ways at the time, the political climate was much different and the Republicans were not the party with the more conservative outlook (at the time, they were the party of higher income tax, larger federal government, larger education subsidies, etc etc).
^^^ this sounds like "i'd rather have a beer with obama". i also don't get how inexperience has suddenly become a virtue. hillary is certainly inexperienced at running things too (never a governor, mayor, the owner of a corporation) so is that a plus for her as well?
also, since when do democrats think that Bill Clinton was a bad prez? why are people using her experience as a first lady and her last name against her?? who was the last democrat that we liked more than Bill, JFK?
people don't just "disagree" or even "dislike" hilary. People HATE her with a passion. Nobody HATES Obama. I could see people voting republican just to keep hilary out, whereas I can't see that happening with Obama. Just like nobody HATES Romney, for example. And given the choice, I could see a lot of people who are sick and tired of bush voting for somebody like Romney rather than hilary.
I'm thinking if Obama makes it, the he'll probably take it all the way. If hilary makes it... its gonna be pretty close.
Thats just me talking out of my ass though. But I hear people talk, and its either "I like hilary" or "I Frickin' HATE HER". Seriously.
She's disingenuous. Not that all politicians and most people aren't to some extent as well, but she doesn't hide it as well as most. People dislike her regardless of her politics the same way they liked McCain in 2000. He seemed genuine. She does not.
Actually it's not that at all.
...and with that its unanimous that people who dislike hillary don't know why they hate her, even when they think they do.
Do people think its a good or bad thing that if you never saw or heard Obama speak, you could read thousands and thousands of pages of his speeches and never know he was Black?
Really? I was the one holdout?
What do YOU think??
Should we read a Hillary speech and know it was written for a woman??
# What they plan to do when the economy completely shits the bed? (Why are very few people discussing this nearly inevitable event?)
# Thoughts on increased funding of unrestricted science research and education to help recover from and thwart future aforementioned bed-shittings.
# When are we going to stop subsidizing both our own domestic farmers and multinational corporations for the same crops? Year after year, silos are filled with rotting edible biomass.(The could be extended beyond farming, but it seems like it should be more of a hot-button item with the mid-west crowd.)
# Do you think we could maybe get an open-source, transparent, searchable, minable repository for government information? Google just doesn't cut it with the odd, varied data sets you guys are using. I've heard Northrop Grumman could probably spare a few 1,000 programming man-hours. Better yet, maybe let the public design something for once?
# NAICS - Fail. Try again. This time think about the economy and business landscape as it stands today, not 50 years ago.
You do know that Ron Paul isn't just popping up out of nowhere? He's served in the US House of Representatives for ~20 years.
Sure, the Perot comparison isn't an exact fit, which is why I said "reminds me a bit...". And I'm fully aware that most people consider my candidate, Kucinich, equally looney and/or marginal.
You really need to stop now.
Yes, well, hopefully most of them are written, at least in part, "by a woman". We know that Bill wrote most of his important speeches, or so he claims in his autobiography.
She takes less of a risk by talking about the strides she is making as a woman because gender discrimination, although obviously prevalent, is not as ugly and hidden as racism, not to mention the lingering effects of slavery that are still an issue. Obama is a leader but definitely not a Black leader. He talks about his race when it is convenient (like amongst Blacks at Black churches) but when's the last time he said anything newsworthy about current issues that are facing Blacks. Edwards, is far and away, the candidate that speaks to issues that are disproportionately effecting Blacks in a negative way. As of a month ago, Hillary was also leading over Obama in a national poll of African Americans. What does that say about the significance of possibly electing Obama as the first Black president? To me, it doesn't say much at all.
Cue the Obama is not black enough lines...
Quirky, oldish, idealistic, little white men from Texas-related.
You don't know when to quit, do you?
The war and the economy and crime, issues that I sure remember Obama speaking on when I saw him speak last year, definitely are black issues, as they are issues for anyone.
You are the one placing expectations on Obama to be "more black" according to your notions of what "more black" means. And that, sir, is your problem...not Obama's.
Ron Paul supporters have an incredible ability to stfu when its comes to discussing issues beyond "less government yo!" If you really think corporations should be in charge of the environment and the federal government should have no say in schools, man the fuck up and say it.
I would vote for her, but keith, half the population really does hate Hillary, and will turn out to prove it. You also can't deny her special ability to come off as disingenuous, and to me, those two reasons equal a degree of fate tempting I'm personally not willing to risk in a year the Dem's should have a cake walk...
And for the record, I want a president(and a government)that is not going to do what is best for black people, or women, or dwarves, or homosexuals, or rednecks, or snarky lawyers.
I want one that will do what's best for America as a whole.