In an earlier post I said this whole situation has no right or wrong answer and because of this the struggle between 2 people continues
i think there is an answer there somewhere, it just wont be settled with our outsiers words. one day the people on both sides will tell their political leaders and generals and war mongers and hate preachers that enough is enough and we dont need any more kids dying.
as much as I'd love to believe that I don't think it will come to be, at least not in our lifetimes. From Kindergarden on to 6th grade I went to a school where they taught[/b] us that Arabs are our enemeies. Now this isn't Israel this is a suburb outside of Los Angeles. When the hate is so much that they are teaching 5 year olds 10,000 miles from the epicenter to hate "those people over there" you know its strong. I find the best thing to do is to allow yourself to be open to hearing both sides. In the last few years I've attended just as much mosque as I have synogogue.
...trying to take that first step on the long path
i agree, things may not look very rosey, but hope is an important part of the answer. to get cheesy and optimistic "it is always darkest just before the dawn ...."
after all, you personally probably had plenty of indoctrination before you really got to meet some arabs & palestinians and cypher they werent your enemies and the hate was bs. the people that need to figure it out most actually have jewish and arab neighbors so they dont have to look too far to confront what they are being taught. no reason to think they can't figure it out too.
i do think that governments who have exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to one race over another are whack. i could just as easily be having this discussion about white christians and how america is a racist state which has exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to white christians over others. not like the story is any different here. does that make me an america hater?
The place you describe sounds more like civil rights era America and not a country that has been fighting for its very survival on a daily basis for 50 years.
i do think that governments who have exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to one race over another are whack. i could just as easily be having this discussion about white christians and how america is a racist state which has exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to white christians over others. not like the story is any different here. does that make me an america hater?
The place you describe sounds more like civil rights era America and not a country that has been fighting for its very survival on a daily basis for 50 years.
h
didnt realize i had described much. "governments who have exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to one race over another" describes just about anywhere in the world at any time in history.
i am not trying to belittle the bullshit and terrorism and conflict that the israelis have had to endure, cuz they have certainly been in some shit and that is bound to skew your policies and politics. the fact that the place is run by a secular general speaks volumes on that. i understand a defensive position when most of your neighbors refuse to acknowledge your right to exist. its not a position i can ever really imagine being in but still, fighting for its very survival on a daily basis for 50 years seems to me like a bit of a stretch though. they've completely dominated every actual war they ever fought, they're the only nuclear power in their region of the world and they get more in military funding from the us than most of their neighboring countries produce in gdp. i don't think the arab hordes are about to overrun the temple gates tomorrow. that arguement was far more true when they were actively fighting foreign states, but the reality is they won those wars very decisivly and now they are primarily fighting terrorists. it would be like saying america has been fighting for it's very survival since 9/11. you could probably find plenty of people to agree with that, but i am just not one of them. to me it is hyperbole to justify some pretty underhanded and aggressive bs. i aint down with that.
The only reason why I brought that up is to illustrate that others persecuted by the Holocaust, namely the handicapped and blacks, were categorically unable to do such a thing. Therefore as a people, the handicapped and blacks in Germany were absolutely obliterated by the Nazis whereas plenty of Jews fortunately, for one reason or another survived.
See, what I said has nothing to do with blaming Jews for anything related to the Holocaust. It only goes to show that the Holocaust was hardly only about the persecution of Jews.
There is of course no way I could even attempt to belittle the murder of 6 million Jews, nor would I ever want to.
But if the Holocaust is going to be used as a justification for descendents of those same Jews/Zionists to persecute innocent people situated thousands miles away from the guilty of Germany/Austria/Switzerland/etc. then I've got a major problem with the way the Holocaust is being perceived.
And HAZ has especially proven to me what I thought coming into this discussion...that there is no room to discuss these issues properly (as in analytically and fairly to all) without being immediately labeled an anti-Semite and pigeonholed as...who was it who basically called me an Aryan/KKK dickweed?
C'mon...face some facts already. Guzzo was taught in his school (in California?) to hate Arabs. I don't even know what to say to that...it's so over the top to me and anything I've ever experienced growing up in the so-called racist toilet bowl of the world, Deep South.
Serioulsy, most of the perceived instances of Anti-Defamation Leage-defined anti-Semitism would be instantly erased if upstanding Jews would simply stop defending the actions of crazed Zionists as if any verbal attack on say Ariel Sharon is the equivalent of an attack on Judaism.
Serioulsy, most of the perceived instances of Anti-Defamation Leage-defined anti-Semitism would be instantly erased if upstanding Jews would simply stop defending the actions of crazed Zionists as if any verbal attack on say Ariel Sharon is the equivalent of an attack on Judaism.
Jeez...
Re: anti-Zionist = anti-Semitic/anti-Jew equation: Obviously it's not always a true equation. But consider this: Israel is criticized, talked about, scrutinized in the media, etc. far far far out of proportion to its size and to the number of people its foreign and domestic policies actaully affect, and to the geopolitical realities it's grappling with. And it happens to be the State of the Jews, a people that's been pushed around and blamed forever. So can you really blame some Jews for wondering if there might be other motives behind people's critiques of Israel? Consider their perspective.
The only reason why I brought that up is to illustrate that others persecuted by the Holocaust, namely the handicapped and blacks, were categorically unable to do such a thing. Therefore as a people, the handicapped and blacks in Germany were absolutely obliterated by the Nazis whereas plenty of Jews fortunately, for one reason or another survived.
See, what I said has nothing to do with blaming Jews for anything related to the Holocaust. It only goes to show that the Holocaust was hardly only about the persecution of Jews.
There is of course no way I could even attempt to belittle the murder of 6 million Jews, nor would I ever want to.
But if the Holocaust is going to be used as a justification for descendents of those same Jews/Zionists to persecute innocent people situated thousands miles away from the guilty of Germany/Austria/Switzerland/etc. then I've got a major problem with the way the Holocaust is being perceived.
And HAZ has especially proven to me what I thought coming into this discussion...that there is no room to discuss these issues properly (as in analytically and fairly to all) without being immediately labeled an anti-Semite and pigeonholed as...who was it who basically called me an Aryan/KKK dickweed?
C'mon...face some facts already. Guzzo was taught in his school (in California?) to hate Arabs. I don't even know what to say to that...it's so over the top to me and anything I've ever experienced growing up in the so-called racist toilet bowl of the world, Deep South.
Serioulsy, most of the perceived instances of Anti-Defamation Leage-defined anti-Semitism would be instantly erased if upstanding Jews would simply stop defending the actions of crazed Zionists as if any verbal attack on say Ariel Sharon is the equivalent of an attack on Judaism.
Jeez...
Dicussions concerning Israel & its politics should not be shunned. Jpegs that look like Aryan nation fliers and groundless speculation which singles out Jews/Zionists as the root cause of the Iraq war is a different story. Please do not pigeonhole me into your narrow view of what Jews are.
Archaic, I don't think any Jew is using the holocaust alone as a reason for Israel's existence. The Jews have been persecuted for much, much longer than that.
And, quite frankly, while Gypsies, Gays, Catholics, etc etc were all touched by the holocaust none of that even holds a candle to Hitler's hard on for Jews. I mean, I understand where you're coming from but I don't think it's historically accurate to say, "well some Jews survived, whereas no handicapped did"... I mean, you're talking six million versus a few thousand.
I think the reason people are throwing around "anti-semite" in response to these comments is because what you're saying is similar to saying, "hey - some Blacks escaped slavery. They had the underground railroad, they could become house n****rs, and there were even Black slave owners!" I mean, sure, but it's just a footnote to the horror of slavery. You seem to be intent on minimizing, or at least putting in some kind of broader context, this horrible genocide... why?
i don't think its so much the questions he's asking i think its the fact that archaic is asking them, he has already said some dumbass remarks about the holocust which iam sorry to say makes me think he has some antisemitic tendencies (he may not, i am just going with my gut here) i have found a lot of the conspiracy theory freaks like to blame the jews and israel for just about everything, and if you want to get the heart of what their saying, replace zionist with jewish
So I'm not even a person making specific comments and asking specific questions...instead I'm a stereotype of a conspiracy theory nut...might as well bulldoze my house right now.
Archaic If you've been branded as a conspiracy theory nut[/b] you have no one to thank for that but yourself. Despite the occasional moment of clarity, you consistently detour arguments into all kinds of batty intellectual dead ends. As far as accusations of anti-semitism, while your arguments may not be "explicitly" anti-semitic, they are often implicitly so. What is one to make of your obsession with lessening the impact of the Holocaust on the Jews? The "Final Solution" concerned itself directly with the extermination of the Jews as a race. The fact that the Nazi obsession with eugenics in particular and murder of their opposition in general ended up killing so many more people is not inconsequential, but peripheral to the main issue behind the Holocaust. Your concentration on these peripheral issues mimics a similar concentration on the same issues by the "Holocaust Denial" industry and White Supremacists/anti-semites.
The book you site by Bryan Mark Rigg includes one sentance in its description that undermines your point. "But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht's growing manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other victims of the Third Reich." It also proves the point of your critics because these soldiers were for all intents and purposes exceptions to race laws that singled out Jews. For Josh Davis, again, how does this compare to America?
Also when you reflexively criticize Israel and Sharon, you fail to mention that the settlers the prime minister once championed today spilled oil and nails on Israel's highway to protest his policy to evacuate Jews from Gaza. All of this in the face of a coordinated terror war that is funded from the scions of Arab elite throughout the Middle East. The creation of an industry devoted to the recruitment of adolescents into a suicide cult that turns them into walking smart bombs. Is this not child abuse? So when the errors are all in one direction, one wonders whether your comments are the fruit of free enquiry alone. Or is it something about the chosen people that just burns your ass.
The book you site by Bryan Mark Rigg includes one sentance in its description that undermines your point. "But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht's growing manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other victims of the Third Reich." It also proves the point of your critics because these soldiers were for all intents and purposes exceptions to race laws that singled out Jews. For Josh Davis, again, how does this compare to America?
Also when you reflexively criticize Israel and Sharon, you fail to mention that the settlers the prime minister once championed today spilled oil and nails on Israel's highway to protest his policy to evacuate Jews from Gaza. All of this in the face of a coordinated terror war that is funded from the scions of Arab elite throughout the Middle East. The creation of an industry devoted to the recruitment of adolescents into a suicide cult that turns them into walking smart bombs. Is this not child abuse? So when the errors are all in one direction, one wonders whether your comments are the fruit of free enquiry alone. Or is it something about the chosen people that just burns your ass.
Vitamin
dude, you're looking to archaic for fair and balanced reflection on the israel/palestine issue? that would be like expecting the same from you -- just not gonna happen.
I never said that Israel is the "root cause" of the war on Iraq. But some of you should realize that if the US is going to align itself with Israel, pour so much money into Israel, and basically represent the interests of Israel with its evry maneuver in the Middle East...then Americans are going to want to question why their government/military is being so absolutely one-sided, and thus practically racist by design against Arabs, when Israel as a caste-supporting state may actually be the one standing on shakier legs.
As far as Arabs being forcibly displaced as they have been the past 60 years in Israel...you bet ya, I am 100% against it.
And it boggles my mind that here in the US we are hawked into ever really examining the issue fairly without the word "anti-Semite" plauging the conversation from jump.
The Holocaust was obviously a tragedy for far too many people. But it is hardly the end-all be-all of genocidal massacres. So yes, I do seek to minimize the emphasis that our society places on the Holocaust, but only to shed light on more neglected histories that shouldn't necessarily cower behind the relative-overexposure of Jewish history. Again, Native America, Middle Passage, Russian gulags, Cambodia, Rwanda, Latin America, Maoist China, Eastern Europe, etc...this Hitler-esque type of behavior is hardly exclusive to Nazi Germany. And Americans more than anything need to stop thinking by way of the Holocaust that it was merely a one-time thing.
In other words, don't feel threatened by people comparing modern situations to Nazi Germany...instead feel prepared to stop a building massacre in its tracks.
Or is it something about the Chosen People that just burns your ass.
No at all. But...
Israel can eat my dick. Enough is enough. Only because:
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)[/b]
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans $74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid) $9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments $1,650,000,000
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli $14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel[/b]
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S. $49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers $134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli $23,240
Almost all of that aid is part of America's treaty obligation under the first Camp David Accord. If you want to blame someone, blame Jimmy Carter. In 1998 Israel signed an agreement to phase out economic assistance. Today Israeli arms makers are fully integrated into America's military industrial complex. The Jewish State makes the technology for America's missile defense system, the radar detection software for its spy planes and the detection system for the fences it constructs for detention facilities in Afghanistan. It's a little deeper than this rather simplistic set of figures.
I never said that Israel is the "root cause" of the war on Iraq. But some of you should realize that if the US is going to align itself with Israel, pour so much money into Israel, and basically represent the interests of Israel with its evry maneuver in the Middle East...then Americans are going to want to question why their government/military is being so absolutely one-sided, and thus practically racist by design against Arabs, when Israel as a caste-supporting state may actually be the one standing on shakier legs.
As far as Arabs being forcibly displaced as they have been the past 60 years in Israel...you bet ya, I am 100% against it.
And it boggles my mind that here in the US we are hawked into ever really examining the issue fairly without the word "anti-Semite" plauging the conversation from jump.
The Holocaust was obviously a tragedy for far too many people. But it is hardly the end-all be-all of genocidal massacres. So yes, I do seek to minimize the emphasis that our society places on the Holocaust, but only to shed light on more neglected histories that shouldn't necessarily cower behind the relative-overexposure of Jewish history. Again, Native America, Middle Passage, Russian gulags, Cambodia, Rwanda, Latin America, Maoist China, Eastern Europe, etc...this Hitler-esque type of behavior is hardly exclusive to Nazi Germany. And Americans more than anything need to stop thinking by way of the Holocaust that it was merely a one-time thing.
In other words, don't feel threatened by people comparing modern situations to Nazi Germany...instead feel prepared to stop a building massacre in its tracks.
For my own clarification, did you not talk about Zionists working with the American government to eliminate the Arab population in the middle east? The American government has close ties to other middle eastern nations that are not Israel.
George Bush has shady connections to other world leaders who are not Zionist, Jewish, or named Arial Sharon.
The current American president believes in the use of violence to cure society's ills. His track record in Texas speaks for itself.
Americans should take a long look in the mirror if they would like to understand how it is that they became embroiled in this awful conflict in Iraq. Instead of doing that, though, they trot out their Jewish Bogieman. You can call him Zionist today, if it makes you feel better.
Or is it something about the Chosen People that just burns your ass.
No at all. But...
Israel can eat my dick. Enough is enough. Only because:
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)[/b]
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans $74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid) $9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments $1,650,000,000
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli $14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel[/b]
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S. $49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers $134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli $23,240
$135 Billion to have a nuclear proxy in the middle east is starting to look like a bargain compared to the $180 billion spent to date on iraq.
I think you would be surprised how much the US has given Egypt in foreign aid in the last 10 years.
Blame Jews.
Its easier than thinking.
h
you are unbelievable. seriously, get over yourself, no one is casting any blame on jews. clearly people here have a problem with many of the policies of the israeli government and the us support for it, but everyone here is grown enough to seperate that government from jewish people as a whole. nobody is blaming jews for anything in the posts your quoting. it would appear that you are the one having trouble thinking (or at least reading).
egypt gets exactly 2/3rds the foreign aid israel gets. it is actually pegged to the israeli figure (or was at least at one point). american tax payers get to subsidize the conflict from both sides so that arms manufacturers and defense firms can cash in on people dying. that shit is fucked up and has nothing to do with religion other than the use of otherwise pacifist religions to justify and ellicit the kind of hate it takes for neighbors to be blowing each other up for years.
Or is it something about the Chosen People that just burns your ass.
No at all. But...
Israel can eat my dick. Enough is enough. Only because:
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)[/b]
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel[/b]
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
$135 Billion to have a nuclear proxy in the middle east is starting to look like a bargain compared to the $180 billion spent to date on iraq.
I think you would be surprised how much the US has given Egypt in foreign aid in the last 10 years.
Blame Jews.
Its easier than thinking.
h
you are unbelievable. seriously, get over yourself, no one is casting any blame on jews. clearly people here have a problem with many of the policies of the israeli government and the us support for it, but everyone here is grown enough to seperate that government from jewish people as a whole. nobody is blaming jews for anything in the posts your quoting. it would appear that you are the one having trouble thinking (or at least reading).
egypt gets exactly 2/3rds the foreign aid israel gets. it is actually pegged to the israeli figure (or was at least at one point). american tax payers get to subsidize the conflict from both sides so that arms manufacturers and defense firms can cash in on people dying. that shit is fucked up and has nothing to do with religion other than the use of otherwise pacifist religions to justify and ellicit the kind of hate it takes for neighbors to be blowing each other up for years.
All I'm saying is that the US gives financial aid to a lot of countries for a lot of reasons, many of which could be discussed & analysed at length. Maybe that point did not come across well enough. Egypt may get less foreign aid than Israel, buut they still have recieved over 50 billion dollars in the last 25 years. Where is the indignation on this point? Why is there an Israeli fixation?
I never said that Israel is the "root cause" of the war on Iraq. But some of you should realize that if the US is going to align itself with Israel, pour so much money into Israel, and basically represent the interests of Israel with its evry maneuver in the Middle East...then Americans are going to want to question why their government/military is being so absolutely one-sided, and thus practically racist by design against Arabs, when Israel as a caste-supporting state may actually be the one standing on shakier legs.
As far as Arabs being forcibly displaced as they have been the past 60 years in Israel...you bet ya, I am 100% against it.
And it boggles my mind that here in the US we are hawked into ever really examining the issue fairly without the word "anti-Semite" plauging the conversation from jump.
The Holocaust was obviously a tragedy for far too many people. But it is hardly the end-all be-all of genocidal massacres. So yes, I do seek to minimize the emphasis that our society places on the Holocaust, but only to shed light on more neglected histories that shouldn't necessarily cower behind the relative-overexposure of Jewish history. Again, Native America, Middle Passage, Russian gulags, Cambodia, Rwanda, Latin America, Maoist China, Eastern Europe, etc...this Hitler-esque type of behavior is hardly exclusive to Nazi Germany. And Americans more than anything need to stop thinking by way of the Holocaust that it was merely a one-time thing.
In other words, don't feel threatened by people comparing modern situations to Nazi Germany...instead feel prepared to stop a building massacre in its tracks.
For my own clarification, did you not talk about Zionists working with the American government to eliminate the Arab population in the middle east? The Americamn government has close ties to other middle eastern nations that are not Israel.
George Bush has shady connections to other world leaders who are not Zionist, Jewish, or named Arial Sharon.
The current American president believes in the use of violence to cure society's ills. His track record in Texas speaks for itself.
Americans should take a long look in the mirror if they would like to understand how it is that they became embroiled in this awful conflict in Iraq. Instead of doing that, though, they trot out their Jewish Bogieman. You can call him Zionist today, if it makes you feel better.
Soon, America could be partying like its 1939.
Shadow may have a point...
h
Get off it already...I previously mentioned that it's non-Jews who are manipulating Jews/Zionists into furthering non-Jew causes...just study up on the Rothschilds and their hands in both Nazi Germany AND the creation of modern-day Israel. Yes, George Bush is a stooge of not only the Israeli government but also the higher powers that rule them both. 99% of us, regardless of religion or race could be labeled as victims in this shit. You are not the only one...
I don't even know where you are getting this idea of "trotting out a Jewish boogieman" as it pertains to this discussion. Again, are you responding to me or something that Khalid Abdul Muhhamed once said?
the idea of having ones own state is not inherently evil, just inherently racist.
Any state is necessarily exclusionary. As a Canadian, I cannot go to the USA and expect to enjoy the rights and freedoms of an American citizen. Nationalism, not racism, is the appropriate way of describing this.
Get off it already...I previously mentioned that it's non-Jews who are manipulating Jews/Zionists into furthering non-Jew causes...just study up on the Rothschilds and their hands in both Nazi Germany AND the creation of modern-day Israel. Yes, George Bush is a stooge of not only the Israeli government but also the higher powers that rule them both. 99% of us, regardless of religion or race could be labeled as victims in this shit. You are not the only one...
Dude, this just sounds outlandish. Its like some x files thing...I want to get where you're coming from. I'm waiting for the lizard people & the masons to come up.
Jew-baters, Jew-haters, and opponents of the ZOG: be warned! Jews are infiltrating the last holdouts of the Aryan purity--mall rides! Take arms, take arms!
(That's me doing some mall ride infiltrating. Pay special attention to my snarl.)
the original philosophy behind zionism as i understand it was not really about the jews having a nation state they could call there own. it was far more about having a place to worship freely and maintaining their religion and culture in the area where it originally flourished.
It was BOTH. The support base drew from people who ascribed to both philosophies.
oh. was there a distinct turning point at all, like a specific time when the slogans changed from being let's have a home to let's have a country?
Get off it already...I previously mentioned that it's non-Jews who are manipulating Jews/Zionists into furthering non-Jew causes...just study up on the Rothschilds and their hands in both Nazi Germany AND the creation of modern-day Israel. Yes, George Bush is a stooge of not only the Israeli government but also the higher powers that rule them both. 99% of us, regardless of religion or race could be labeled as victims in this shit. You are not the only one...
Dude, this just sounds outlandish. Its like some x files thing...I want to get where you're coming from. I'm waiting for the lizard people & the masons to come up.
h
The world is outlandish. At this point in history corporations/world bankers run the world rather than nations or religious bodies. Don't have to be nutso to see that.
Regardless of who it actually winds up being...Freemasons, Reptilian overlords, whatever, evil fucks...it shouldn't be all that difficult to come to terms with the idea that the leaders of two buddy nations (in this case the US and Israel) could be answering to the same boss.
It shouldn't be difficult to take it one step further to realize that the leaders of opposing nations (say the US and Iraq) could be answering to the same boss.
And the next epiphany is to realize that the boss may not have the interests of either the US, Israel or Iraq in mind...for he is solely interested in manipulating them for his own gains.
Get used to this idea now...because before long we're gonna see things like the EU and NAFTA superceding national priority...if they don't already.
the idea of having ones own state is not inherently evil, just inherently racist.
Any state is necessarily exclusionary. As a Canadian, I cannot go to the USA and expect to enjoy the rights and freedoms of an American citizen. Nationalism, not racism, is the appropriate way of describing this.
for the most part, i agree, but what guzzo was refering to is "ones own state" where one refers to a particular ethnicity. when rights and freedoms are extended or withheld from someone based on their citizenship status, it is indeed nationalism. when rights and freedoms are extended or withheld from someone based on their race or ethnicity, it is racism.
the idea of having ones own state is not inherently evil, just inherently racist.
Any state is necessarily exclusionary. As a Canadian, I cannot go to the USA and expect to enjoy the rights and freedoms of an American citizen. Nationalism, not racism, is the appropriate way of describing this.
for the most part, i agree, but what guzzo was refering to is "ones own state" where one refers to a particular ethnicity. when rights and freedoms are extended or withheld from someone based on their citizenship status, it is indeed nationalism. when rights and freedoms are extended or withheld from someone based on their race or ethnicity, it is racism.
no,, not quite. I was stating that Jews felt the need to have their own state as opposed to living in other countries. This did not[/b] mean they were making a state solely[/b] for the Jews. Just a place where they could live and practice their faith/ way of life without the persecution they felt in many other countries over the centuries
this is where I get frustrated, you are twisting jews and zionist to be one. I think your definition of zionist is not a very positive one and by combining the term with the word Jew you are painting Jewish people in negative light. There is no need to include the word Jew in your statement. In my opinion it would be like saying Asian/ rapists or something to that degree
Comments
i agree, things may not look very rosey, but hope is an important part of the answer. to get cheesy and optimistic "it is always darkest just before the dawn ...."
after all, you personally probably had plenty of indoctrination before you really got to meet some arabs & palestinians and cypher they werent your enemies and the hate was bs. the people that need to figure it out most actually have jewish and arab neighbors so they dont have to look too far to confront what they are being taught. no reason to think they can't figure it out too.
The place you describe sounds more like civil rights era America and not a country that has been fighting for its very survival on a daily basis for 50 years.
h
didnt realize i had described much. "governments who have exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to one race over another" describes just about anywhere in the world at any time in history.
i am not trying to belittle the bullshit and terrorism and conflict that the israelis have had to endure, cuz they have certainly been in some shit and that is bound to skew your policies and politics. the fact that the place is run by a secular general speaks volumes on that. i understand a defensive position when most of your neighbors refuse to acknowledge your right to exist. its not a position i can ever really imagine being in but still, fighting for its very survival on a daily basis for 50 years seems to me like a bit of a stretch though. they've completely dominated every actual war they ever fought, they're the only nuclear power in their region of the world and they get more in military funding from the us than most of their neighboring countries produce in gdp. i don't think the arab hordes are about to overrun the temple gates tomorrow. that arguement was far more true when they were actively fighting foreign states, but the reality is they won those wars very decisivly and now they are primarily fighting terrorists. it would be like saying america has been fighting for it's very survival since 9/11. you could probably find plenty of people to agree with that, but i am just not one of them. to me it is hyperbole to justify some pretty underhanded and aggressive bs. i aint down with that.
All I have attempted to state in this thread are facts.
Many Jews were able to pass as Nazis in order to survive the Holocaust. For instance these dudes:
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righitpix.html
The only reason why I brought that up is to illustrate that others persecuted by the Holocaust, namely the handicapped and blacks, were categorically unable to do such a thing. Therefore as a people, the handicapped and blacks in Germany were absolutely obliterated by the Nazis whereas plenty of Jews fortunately, for one reason or another survived.
See, what I said has nothing to do with blaming Jews for anything related to the Holocaust. It only goes to show that the Holocaust was hardly only about the persecution of Jews.
There is of course no way I could even attempt to belittle the murder of 6 million Jews, nor would I ever want to.
But if the Holocaust is going to be used as a justification for descendents of those same Jews/Zionists to persecute innocent people situated thousands miles away from the guilty of Germany/Austria/Switzerland/etc. then I've got a major problem with the way the Holocaust is being perceived.
And HAZ has especially proven to me what I thought coming into this discussion...that there is no room to discuss these issues properly (as in analytically and fairly to all) without being immediately labeled an anti-Semite and pigeonholed as...who was it who basically called me an Aryan/KKK dickweed?
C'mon...face some facts already. Guzzo was taught in his school (in California?) to hate Arabs. I don't even know what to say to that...it's so over the top to me and anything I've ever experienced growing up in the so-called racist toilet bowl of the world, Deep South.
Serioulsy, most of the perceived instances of Anti-Defamation Leage-defined anti-Semitism would be instantly erased if upstanding Jews would simply stop defending the actions of crazed Zionists as if any verbal attack on say Ariel Sharon is the equivalent of an attack on Judaism.
Jeez...
Re: anti-Zionist = anti-Semitic/anti-Jew equation: Obviously it's not always a true equation. But consider this: Israel is criticized, talked about, scrutinized in the media, etc. far far far out of proportion to its size and to the number of people its foreign and domestic policies actaully affect, and to the geopolitical realities it's grappling with. And it happens to be the State of the Jews, a people that's been pushed around and blamed forever. So can you really blame some Jews for wondering if there might be other motives behind people's critiques of Israel? Consider their perspective.
PORTUGAL TO AMSTRDAM - i always love it when Americans refer to Amsterdam as a country.
Dicussions concerning Israel & its politics should not be shunned. Jpegs that look like Aryan nation fliers and groundless speculation which singles out Jews/Zionists as the root cause of the Iraq war is a different story. Please do not pigeonhole me into your narrow view of what Jews are.
Seig Heil
h
And, quite frankly, while Gypsies, Gays, Catholics, etc etc were all touched by the holocaust none of that even holds a candle to Hitler's hard on for Jews. I mean, I understand where you're coming from but I don't think it's historically accurate to say, "well some Jews survived, whereas no handicapped did"... I mean, you're talking six million versus a few thousand.
I think the reason people are throwing around "anti-semite" in response to these comments is because what you're saying is similar to saying, "hey - some Blacks escaped slavery. They had the underground railroad, they could become house n****rs, and there were even Black slave owners!" I mean, sure, but it's just a footnote to the horror of slavery. You seem to be intent on minimizing, or at least putting in some kind of broader context, this horrible genocide... why?
Archaic
If you've been branded as a conspiracy theory nut[/b] you have no one to thank for that but yourself. Despite the occasional moment of clarity, you consistently detour arguments into all kinds of batty intellectual dead ends.
As far as accusations of anti-semitism, while your arguments may not be "explicitly" anti-semitic, they are often implicitly so. What is one to make of your obsession with lessening the impact of the Holocaust on the Jews? The "Final Solution" concerned itself directly with the extermination of the Jews as a race. The fact that the Nazi obsession with eugenics in particular and murder of their opposition in general ended up killing so many more people is not inconsequential, but peripheral to the main issue behind the Holocaust. Your concentration on these peripheral issues mimics a similar concentration on the same issues by the "Holocaust Denial" industry and White Supremacists/anti-semites.
Archaic,
The book you site by Bryan Mark Rigg includes one sentance in its description that undermines your point. "But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht's growing manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other victims of the Third Reich." It also proves the point of your critics because these soldiers were for all intents and purposes exceptions to race laws that singled out Jews. For Josh Davis, again, how does this compare to America?
Also when you reflexively criticize Israel and Sharon, you fail to mention that the settlers the prime minister once championed today spilled oil and nails on Israel's highway to protest his policy to evacuate Jews from Gaza. All of this in the face of a coordinated terror war that is funded from the scions of Arab elite throughout the Middle East. The creation of an industry devoted to the recruitment of adolescents into a suicide cult that turns them into walking smart bombs. Is this not child abuse? So when the errors are all in one direction, one wonders whether your comments are the fruit of free enquiry alone. Or is it something about the chosen people that just burns your ass.
Vitamin
No at all. But...
Israel can eat my dick. Enough is enough. Only because:
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)[/b]
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel[/b]
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
dude, you're looking to archaic for fair and balanced reflection on the israel/palestine issue? that would be like expecting the same from you -- just not gonna happen.
As far as Arabs being forcibly displaced as they have been the past 60 years in Israel...you bet ya, I am 100% against it.
And it boggles my mind that here in the US we are hawked into ever really examining the issue fairly without the word "anti-Semite" plauging the conversation from jump.
The Holocaust was obviously a tragedy for far too many people. But it is hardly the end-all be-all of genocidal massacres. So yes, I do seek to minimize the emphasis that our society places on the Holocaust, but only to shed light on more neglected histories that shouldn't necessarily cower behind the relative-overexposure of Jewish history. Again, Native America, Middle Passage, Russian gulags, Cambodia, Rwanda, Latin America, Maoist China, Eastern Europe, etc...this Hitler-esque type of behavior is hardly exclusive to Nazi Germany. And Americans more than anything need to stop thinking by way of the Holocaust that it was merely a one-time thing.
In other words, don't feel threatened by people comparing modern situations to Nazi Germany...instead feel prepared to stop a building massacre in its tracks.
$135 Billion to have a nuclear proxy in the middle east is starting to look like a bargain compared to the $180 billion spent to date on iraq.
Almost all of that aid is part of America's treaty obligation under the first Camp David Accord. If you want to blame someone, blame Jimmy Carter. In 1998 Israel signed an agreement to phase out economic assistance. Today Israeli arms makers are fully integrated into America's military industrial complex. The Jewish State makes the technology for America's missile defense system, the radar detection software for its spy planes and the detection system for the fences it constructs for detention facilities in Afghanistan. It's a little deeper than this rather simplistic set of figures.
I think you would be surprised how much the US has given Egypt in foreign aid in the last 10 years.
Blame Jews.
Its easier than thinking.
h
For my own clarification, did you not talk about Zionists working with the American government to eliminate the Arab population in the middle east? The American government has close ties to other middle eastern nations that are not Israel.
George Bush has shady connections to other world leaders who are not Zionist, Jewish, or named Arial Sharon.
The current American president believes in the use of violence to cure society's ills. His track record in Texas speaks for itself.
Americans should take a long look in the mirror if they would like to understand how it is that they became embroiled in this awful conflict in Iraq. Instead of doing that, though, they trot out their Jewish Bogieman. You can call him Zionist today, if it makes you feel better.
Soon, America could be partying like its 1939.
Shadow may have a point...
h
you are unbelievable. seriously, get over yourself, no one is casting any blame on jews. clearly people here have a problem with many of the policies of the israeli government and the us support for it, but everyone here is grown enough to seperate that government from jewish people as a whole. nobody is blaming jews for anything in the posts your quoting. it would appear that you are the one having trouble thinking (or at least reading).
egypt gets exactly 2/3rds the foreign aid israel gets. it is actually pegged to the israeli figure (or was at least at one point). american tax payers get to subsidize the conflict from both sides so that arms manufacturers and defense firms can cash in on people dying. that shit is fucked up and has nothing to do with religion other than the use of otherwise pacifist religions to justify and ellicit the kind of hate it takes for neighbors to be blowing each other up for years.
All I'm saying is that the US gives financial aid to a lot of countries for a lot of reasons, many of which could be discussed & analysed at length. Maybe that point did not come across well enough. Egypt may get less foreign aid than Israel, buut they still have recieved over 50 billion dollars in the last 25 years. Where is the indignation on this point? Why is there an Israeli fixation?
h
Get off it already...I previously mentioned that it's non-Jews who are manipulating Jews/Zionists into furthering non-Jew causes...just study up on the Rothschilds and their hands in both Nazi Germany AND the creation of modern-day Israel. Yes, George Bush is a stooge of not only the Israeli government but also the higher powers that rule them both. 99% of us, regardless of religion or race could be labeled as victims in this shit. You are not the only one...
I don't even know where you are getting this idea of "trotting out a Jewish boogieman" as it pertains to this discussion. Again, are you responding to me or something that Khalid Abdul Muhhamed once said?
Any state is necessarily exclusionary. As a Canadian, I cannot go to the USA and expect to enjoy the rights and freedoms of an American citizen. Nationalism, not racism, is the appropriate way of describing this.
FYI: Kaddish is the Jewish prayer of mourning.
Dude, this just sounds outlandish. Its like some x files thing...I want to get where you're coming from. I'm waiting for the lizard people & the masons to come up.
h
Time to add some levity to this thread.
Jew-baters, Jew-haters, and opponents of the ZOG: be warned! Jews are infiltrating the last holdouts of the Aryan purity--mall rides! Take arms, take arms!
(That's me doing some mall ride infiltrating. Pay special attention to my snarl.)
The world is outlandish. At this point in history corporations/world bankers run the world rather than nations or religious bodies. Don't have to be nutso to see that.
Regardless of who it actually winds up being...Freemasons, Reptilian overlords, whatever, evil fucks...it shouldn't be all that difficult to come to terms with the idea that the leaders of two buddy nations (in this case the US and Israel) could be answering to the same boss.
It shouldn't be difficult to take it one step further to realize that the leaders of opposing nations (say the US and Iraq) could be answering to the same boss.
And the next epiphany is to realize that the boss may not have the interests of either the US, Israel or Iraq in mind...for he is solely interested in manipulating them for his own gains.
Get used to this idea now...because before long we're gonna see things like the EU and NAFTA superceding national priority...if they don't already.
for the most part, i agree, but what guzzo was refering to is "ones own state" where one refers to a particular ethnicity. when rights and freedoms are extended or withheld from someone based on their citizenship status, it is indeed nationalism. when rights and freedoms are extended or withheld from someone based on their race or ethnicity, it is racism.
no,, not quite. I was stating that Jews felt the need to have their own state as opposed to living in other countries. This did not[/b] mean they were making a state solely[/b] for the Jews. Just a place where they could live and practice their faith/ way of life without the persecution they felt in many other countries over the centuries
this is where I get frustrated, you are twisting jews and zionist to be one. I think your definition of zionist is not a very positive one and by combining the term with the word Jew you are painting Jewish people in negative light. There is no need to include the word Jew in your statement. In my opinion it would be like saying Asian/ rapists or something to that degree
Not all Jews are zionists.