interesting. so, correct me if im wrong, to solve the problem israel is given/takes more land with each fight? that doesnt make any sense.
Actually it makes a lot of sense.
Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza to drive out the Jordanians and Egyptians respectively in order to create secure borders of the kind that would not have led to the Six-Day War in the first place.
The lands were seen by the Israeli generals as bargaining chips, however the Arab govt'ts refused to negotiate (see the Karthoum Conference). Since then Israeli civilians have moved into the land (first to towns they were kicked out of in 1948, then to other uninhabited parts that now abut some Palestinian towns) and it's no longer as simple as just giving the land up.
So it's "simple" for the people labeled as Palestinians to give up their land? But when it's time for israel to possibly give up the land they stole by force in the first place...it's not that "simple"???
If you are outraged that innocent people are targeted by Israel, then you are implicitly saying that non-soldiers should be left alone in war. If one side is recruiting teenagers, strapping them with explosives and sending them off to kill civilians and the other side is taking extraordinary risks to only kill the recruiters and coordinators of these attacks, then I'm using the same morality of the accuser.
Jesus, your logic is twisted. Are you that stoned already? Implcit meaning is interpretation not delivery.
If one side is recruiting teenagers, strapping them with ___________ and sending them off to kill [anybody] and the other side is taking extraordinary risks to [make claims to] only kill the recruiters and coordinators of these attacks, then I'm going to shoot my neighbor and take her parking space..
Everybody:
Right wing talking points are that Amnesty International hates freedom because they critique of our handling of prisoners at Gitmo.
First of all, you are getting awfully personal accusing me of writing propaganda and sounding like the 14corners and twisting what I wrote about Amnesty. It is true that they other human rights groups like Betselem and human rights watch have criticized the organization's methodology in counting civilian victims of Israelis attacks. That has nothing to do with the retarded comments about the gulags of our time. Pointing out that there is an ocean of difference between Soviet Gulags and America's detention facilities is common sense grounded in historical prorportion. The burden is on you, Frank, to explain how to account for the order of magnitude difference in the number of victims of the Gulags and Bagram and Gitmo.
Second of all, your rejoinder makes no frickin sense. Back to the case at hand. Do you think Palestinians do not recruit teenagers, strap them with bombs and send them off to blow up civilians? Do you think Israel goes out of its way to kill civilians? If so, please back it up with something less flimsy than an amnesty report and the indictment of a suicide bomb recruiter.
interesting. so, correct me if im wrong, to solve the problem israel is given/takes more land with each fight? that doesnt make any sense.
Actually it makes a lot of sense.
Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza to drive out the Jordanians and Egyptians respectively in order to create secure borders of the kind that would not have led to the Six-Day War in the first place.
The lands were seen by the Israeli generals as bargaining chips, however the Arab govt'ts refused to negotiate (see the Karthoum Conference). Since then Israeli civilians have moved into the land (first to towns they were kicked out of in 1948, then to other uninhabited parts that now abut some Palestinian towns) and it's no longer as simple as just giving the land up.
So it's "simple" for the people labeled as Palestinians to give up their land? But when it's time for israel to possibly give up the land they stole by force in the first place...it's not that "simple"???
Easier for an army to simply withdraw than for homes and communities to be forcibly moved. Surely you agree.
First of all, you are getting awfully personal accusing me of writing propaganda and sounding like the 14corners and twisting what I wrote about Amnesty. It is true that they other human rights groups like Betselem and human rights watch have criticized the organization's methodology in counting civilian victims of Israelis attacks. That has nothing to do with the retarded comments about the gulags of our time. Pointing out that there is an ocean of difference between Soviet Gulags and America's detention facilities is common sense grounded in historical prorportion. The burden is on you, Frank, to explain how to account for the order of magnitude difference in the number of victims of the Gulags and Bagram and Gitmo.
Second of all, your rejoinder makes no frickin sense. Back to the case at hand. Do you think Palestinians do not recruit teenagers, strap them with bombs and send them off to blow up civilians? Do you think Israel goes out of its way to kill civilians? If so, please back it up with something less flimsy than an amnesty report and the indictment of a suicide bomb recruiter.
interesting. so, correct me if im wrong, to solve the problem israel is given/takes more land with each fight? that doesnt make any sense.
Actually it makes a lot of sense.
Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza to drive out the Jordanians and Egyptians respectively in order to create secure borders of the kind that would not have led to the Six-Day War in the first place.
The lands were seen by the Israeli generals as bargaining chips, however the Arab govt'ts refused to negotiate (see the Karthoum Conference). Since then Israeli civilians have moved into the land (first to towns they were kicked out of in 1948, then to other uninhabited parts that now abut some Palestinian towns) and it's no longer as simple as just giving the land up.
So it's "simple" for the people labeled as Palestinians to give up their land? But when it's time for israel to possibly give up the land they stole by force in the first place...it's not that "simple"???
Easier for an army to simply withdraw than for homes and communities to be forcibly moved. Surely you agree.
i dont know. it looks pretty easy on the tv when they just bulldoze that shit to the ground.
So what would you do in their situation? Simply give up all the land that the Palestinians want to cleanse of the Jews?
Frankly...yes.
Tried that in 2000; they wanted more.
Obviously Israel wasn't giving up "all the land the Palestinians want to cleanse of Jews" then.
Try as y'all might with your cries about suicide bombers to demonize the Palestinians...Israel is the initial criminal in this equation. Thus the burden is on Israel, especially since it has been backed with the might of US/Britain/etc., to fix the mess it has created.
Maybe that means German Jews should relocate back to Germany...I don't know, just do it already...make peace that is.
[color:white]Zionists &[/color] the birth of modern terrorism
King David Hotel 1946: The explosion destroyed part of the hotel and killed 91 people. Most of the victims were British but 15 innocent Jews also died, proving that radical Zionists are capable of...
even killing fellow Jews in order to advance their cause.
Oh, and lookie here...
Who's this?
The most notorious of these Zionist terror groups was the Irgun, whose leader Menachem Begin[/b] [AKA--Vitamin's avatar] would one day go on to become Prime Minister of Israel.
The bombing of the King David Hotel occurred in July 1946 and some saw it as a pivotal moment in recent Middle East history. The King David Hotel was the site for the British Military Command in Palestine. It also served as the headquarters of the British Criminal Investigation Division. The bombing of the hotel galvanised the British into realising that their time in Palestine was coming to an end.
On June 29th 1946, the British unexpectedly entered the premises of the Jewish Agency and took away with them a large number of documents ??? some of which were deemed to be sensitive. All the documents were taken to the King David Hotel where they were to be assessed by intelligence analysts. At around the same time, the British arrested 2,500 Jews in Palestine. Irgun, a Jewish secret organisation (deemed to be a terrorist group by the British) decided to target the hotel for vengeance and also as a way of destroying the documents that had been taken by the British.
The leader of Irgun, Menachem Begin, claimed that Irgun saw the hotel solely as a military building ??? and therefore a legitimate target. Begin claimed that three warnings were sent out on July 22nd 1946 about the planned attack to keep casualties to the minimum. Begin claimed that three phone calls were made to a) to the French Consulate b) to the hotel itself and c) to the "Palestine Post".
Any warnings were to no avail. The British did not evacuate the hotel and the bombing killed 91 people and injured 45. Ironically, few people in the hotel itself were killed ??? and Jews were among the casualties.
The Jewish National Council immediately condemned the attack.
Did the British know about the attack before hand? Were people sacrificed in an effort to disgrace the Jewish militant bodies in Palestine? For years, former members of Irgun claimed that the British did know about the attack and that warnings had been sent. For years the British denied that this was true. However, in 1979 evidence was presented to the House of Commons in London that Britain had received a credible warning. A former British Army officer based at the hotel admitted that he had heard other officers joking about a threat that had been made to the hotel. In later years, when Menachem Begin had moved into legitimate politics, he claimed that Irgun had sent a warning directly to the hotel but the person who sent the warning was told:
"We don???t take orders from the Jews."
What were the repercussions of the bombing? In the short term, Britain hardened its attitude to what it deemed were terrorist organisations. In the mid to long term, it realised that its mandate to run Palestine was coming to an end. The troubles experienced by the British before World War Two in Palestine had now become a lot worse and it was unlikely that they would get better. When the United Nations declared the existence of Israel, Britain quickly withdrew what was left of its forces in what was now named Israel.
The King David Hotel was the British military headquarters making it a military target. Second, Begin went on to sign the camp david accords with Anwar Sadat. third the Irgun became the IDF and conducting operations against military targets. The Stern Gang on the other hand was a terror organization that assasinated political leaders. Regardless, all of this is so much different than how the Palestinians have waged their second intifadah. The comparison is facile. You can do better.
interesting. so, correct me if im wrong, to solve the problem israel is given/takes more land with each fight? that doesnt make any sense.
I think its more of a case of fighting the aggressors off and pushing them back. I may be wrong though but I hardly think anyone can justly cry about losing when they started it.
i dont think theyre crying about anything. i just think its a real dumb move on the part of israel or the UN or whoever kept awarding israel more land. i mean, its no wonder theyre still fighting.
Shig, NOBODY IS AWARDING ISRAEL MORE LAND.
?????????
oh. ok. i was under the assumption that with each war, 1948, 1963, 1972, israel borders expanded. so this is incorrect.
Yes, you are correct.
1947: The UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, one for Jews and one for Palestinian Arabs, with Jerusalem to become and international enclave.
1948: Britain, who held rule over Palestine after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, withdrew from Palestine. Instead of implementing the UN partition plan, the surrounding Arab states join with the local Palestinians to try and prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. Thus was the 1948 War of Independence, and Israel was established anyway. Jordan at this time occupied the West Bank and Egypt moved troops into the Gaza Strip.
1956: Israel, joinging forces with Britain and France to attack Gamal Abdel Nasser's Egypt's encroaching troop masses south of Israel, occupies most of the the Sinai Peninsula. Under pressure from the United States and the Soviet Union, Israel withdraws.
1964: The PLO is formed in Cairo, put together by various Arab heads of state led by Gamal Abdel Nasser.
1967: Egypt, Syria and Jordan form an alliance to go to war with Israel. Israel launches a preemtive strike against these nations. The 6 Day Way ends with Israel occupying the Sinai, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and West Bank.
1973: Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack against Israeli forces in Sinai and Golan Hights.
1979: Egypt and Israel sign the peace treaty, full peace in exchange for total withdrawl from Sinai.
[color:white]Zionists &[/color] the birth of modern terrorism
King David Hotel 1946: The explosion destroyed part of the hotel and killed 91 people. Most of the victims were British but 15 innocent Jews also died, proving that radical Zionists are capable of...
even killing fellow Jews in order to advance their cause.
Oh, and lookie here...
Who's this?
The most notorious of these Zionist terror groups was the Irgun, whose leader Menachem Begin[/b] [AKA--Vitamin's avatar] would one day go on to become Prime Minister of Israel.
The bombing of the King David Hotel occurred in July 1946 and some saw it as a pivotal moment in recent Middle East history. The King David Hotel was the site for the British Military Command in Palestine. It also served as the headquarters of the British Criminal Investigation Division. The bombing of the hotel galvanised the British into realising that their time in Palestine was coming to an end.
On June 29th 1946, the British unexpectedly entered the premises of the Jewish Agency and took away with them a large number of documents ??? some of which were deemed to be sensitive. All the documents were taken to the King David Hotel where they were to be assessed by intelligence analysts. At around the same time, the British arrested 2,500 Jews in Palestine. Irgun, a Jewish secret organisation (deemed to be a terrorist group by the British) decided to target the hotel for vengeance and also as a way of destroying the documents that had been taken by the British.
The leader of Irgun, Menachem Begin, claimed that Irgun saw the hotel solely as a military building ??? and therefore a legitimate target. Begin claimed that three warnings were sent out on July 22nd 1946 about the planned attack to keep casualties to the minimum. Begin claimed that three phone calls were made to a) to the French Consulate b) to the hotel itself and c) to the "Palestine Post".
Any warnings were to no avail. The British did not evacuate the hotel and the bombing killed 91 people and injured 45. Ironically, few people in the hotel itself were killed ??? and Jews were among the casualties.
The Jewish National Council immediately condemned the attack.
Did the British know about the attack before hand? Were people sacrificed in an effort to disgrace the Jewish militant bodies in Palestine? For years, former members of Irgun claimed that the British did know about the attack and that warnings had been sent. For years the British denied that this was true. However, in 1979 evidence was presented to the House of Commons in London that Britain had received a credible warning. A former British Army officer based at the hotel admitted that he had heard other officers joking about a threat that had been made to the hotel. In later years, when Menachem Begin had moved into legitimate politics, he claimed that Irgun had sent a warning directly to the hotel but the person who sent the warning was told:
"We don???t take orders from the Jews."
What were the repercussions of the bombing? In the short term, Britain hardened its attitude to what it deemed were terrorist organisations. In the mid to long term, it realised that its mandate to run Palestine was coming to an end. The troubles experienced by the British before World War Two in Palestine had now become a lot worse and it was unlikely that they would get better. When the United Nations declared the existence of Israel, Britain quickly withdrew what was left of its forces in what was now named Israel.
quick pasting. nice work. i find these excuses to be pretty poor though.
would somebody objective assess the merits of those claims? my bias is pretty clear.
1947: The UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, one for Jews and one for Palestinian Arabs, with Jerusalem to become and international enclave.
1948: Britain, who held rule over Palestine after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, withdrew from Palestine. Instead of implementing the UN partition plan, the surrounding Arab states join with the local Palestinians to try and prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. Thus was the 1948 War of Independence, and Israel was established anyway. Jordan at this time occupied the West Bank and Egypt moved troops into the Gaza Strip.
1956: Israel, joinging forces with Britain and France to attack Gamal Abdel Nasser's Egypt's encroaching troop masses south of Israel, occupies most of the the Sinai Peninsula. Under pressure from the United States and the Soviet Union, Israel withdraws.
1964: The PLO is formed in Cairo, put together by various Arab heads of state led by Gamal Abdel Nasser.
1967: Egypt, Syria and Jordan form an alliance to go to war with Israel. Israel launches a preemtive strike against these nations. The 6 Day Way ends with Israel occupying the Sinai, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and West Bank.
1973: Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack against Israeli forces in Sinai and Golan Hights.
1979: Egypt and Israel sign the peace treaty, full peace in exchange for total withdrawl from Sinai.
Shall I go on?
Sinai Peninsula - Taken from Egypt in 6 Day War, was returned to Egypt in accordance to the peace treaty.
Golan Heights - Given back to Jordan in accordance to the peace treaty signed by Rabin and Abdul-Salam al-Majali
Gaza Strip & West Bank - Given to the Palestinian Authorities in accordance to the Olso accord.
The King David Hotel was the British military headquarters making it a military target. Second, Begin went on to sign the camp david accords with Anwar Sadat. third the Irgun became the IDF and conducting operations against military targets. The Stern Gang on the other hand was a terror organization that assasinated political leaders. Regardless, all of this is so much different than how the Palestinians have waged their second intifadah. The comparison is facile. You can do better.
I dont make relative justifications like you. Both terrorist approaches are wrong and clearly inneffective. That's why the US should stay out and you and your fucking crew should join the Army and walk the walk your fucking crazy ass talks.
I'm going to look at a rap rackord collection, bitches. Hug a nut.
interesting. so, correct me if im wrong, to solve the problem israel is given/takes more land with each fight? that doesnt make any sense.
I think its more of a case of fighting the aggressors off and pushing them back. I may be wrong though but I hardly think anyone can justly cry about losing when they started it.
i dont think theyre crying about anything. i just think its a real dumb move on the part of israel or the UN or whoever kept awarding israel more land. i mean, its no wonder theyre still fighting.
Shig, NOBODY IS AWARDING ISRAEL MORE LAND.
?????????
oh. ok. i was under the assumption that with each war, 1948, 1963, 1972, israel borders expanded. so this is incorrect.
Yes, you are correct.
1947: The UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, one for Jews and one for Palestinian Arabs, with Jerusalem to become and international enclave.
1948: Britain, who held rule over Palestine after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, withdrew from Palestine. Instead of implementing the UN partition plan, the surrounding Arab states join with the local Palestinians to try and prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. Thus was the 1948 War of Independence, and Israel was established anyway. Jordan at this time occupied the West Bank and Egypt moved troops into the Gaza Strip.
1956: Israel, joinging forces with Britain and France to attack Gamal Abdel Nasser's Egypt's encroaching troop masses south of Israel, occupies most of the the Sinai Peninsula. Under pressure from the United States and the Soviet Union, Israel withdraws.
1964: The PLO is formed in Cairo, put together by various Arab heads of state led by Gamal Abdel Nasser.
1967: Egypt, Syria and Jordan form an alliance to go to war with Israel. Israel launches a preemtive strike against these nations. The 6 Day Way ends with Israel occupying the Sinai, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and West Bank.
1973: Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack against Israeli forces in Sinai and Golan Hights.
1979: Egypt and Israel sign the peace treaty, full peace in exchange for total withdrawl from Sinai.
Shall I go on?
knock yourself out. i like that each year is a paragraph long as that keeps my interest far more than posting legal proceedings or whatever. frankback, i didnt read any of that. its just so overwhelming. i mean, all them words and all.
[color:white]Zionists &[/color] the birth of modern terrorism
King David Hotel 1946: The explosion destroyed part of the hotel and killed 91 people. Most of the victims were British but 15 innocent Jews also died, proving that radical Zionists are capable of...
even killing fellow Jews in order to advance their cause.
Oh, and lookie here...
Who's this?
The most notorious of these Zionist terror groups was the Irgun, whose leader Menachem Begin[/b] [AKA--Vitamin's avatar] would one day go on to become Prime Minister of Israel.
Fact: When push came to shove the Zionist leadership eliminated the rogue right-wing militias that perpetrated the - albeit small number - of massacres in the War for Independence. Rabin went so far as to fire on the Etzel's ship Altalena, killing several on board. Menawhile we can't even get the Palestinian leadership to verbally condemn acts of terror on their side.
[color:white]Zionists &[/color] the birth of modern terrorism
King David Hotel 1946: The explosion destroyed part of the hotel and killed 91 people. Most of the victims were British but 15 innocent Jews also died, proving that radical Zionists are capable of...
even killing fellow Jews in order to advance their cause.
Oh, and lookie here...
Who's this?
The most notorious of these Zionist terror groups was the Irgun, whose leader Menachem Begin[/b] [AKA--Vitamin's avatar] would one day go on to become Prime Minister of Israel.
The bombing of the King David Hotel occurred in July 1946 and some saw it as a pivotal moment in recent Middle East history. The King David Hotel was the site for the British Military Command in Palestine. It also served as the headquarters of the British Criminal Investigation Division. The bombing of the hotel galvanised the British into realising that their time in Palestine was coming to an end.
On June 29th 1946, the British unexpectedly entered the premises of the Jewish Agency and took away with them a large number of documents ??? some of which were deemed to be sensitive. All the documents were taken to the King David Hotel where they were to be assessed by intelligence analysts. At around the same time, the British arrested 2,500 Jews in Palestine. Irgun, a Jewish secret organisation (deemed to be a terrorist group by the British) decided to target the hotel for vengeance and also as a way of destroying the documents that had been taken by the British.
The leader of Irgun, Menachem Begin, claimed that Irgun saw the hotel solely as a military building ??? and therefore a legitimate target. Begin claimed that three warnings were sent out on July 22nd 1946 about the planned attack to keep casualties to the minimum. Begin claimed that three phone calls were made to a) to the French Consulate b) to the hotel itself and c) to the "Palestine Post".
Any warnings were to no avail. The British did not evacuate the hotel and the bombing killed 91 people and injured 45. Ironically, few people in the hotel itself were killed ??? and Jews were among the casualties.
The Jewish National Council immediately condemned the attack.
Did the British know about the attack before hand? Were people sacrificed in an effort to disgrace the Jewish militant bodies in Palestine? For years, former members of Irgun claimed that the British did know about the attack and that warnings had been sent. For years the British denied that this was true. However, in 1979 evidence was presented to the House of Commons in London that Britain had received a credible warning. A former British Army officer based at the hotel admitted that he had heard other officers joking about a threat that had been made to the hotel. In later years, when Menachem Begin had moved into legitimate politics, he claimed that Irgun had sent a warning directly to the hotel but the person who sent the warning was told:
"We don???t take orders from the Jews."
What were the repercussions of the bombing? In the short term, Britain hardened its attitude to what it deemed were terrorist organisations. In the mid to long term, it realised that its mandate to run Palestine was coming to an end. The troubles experienced by the British before World War Two in Palestine had now become a lot worse and it was unlikely that they would get better. When the United Nations declared the existence of Israel, Britain quickly withdrew what was left of its forces in what was now named Israel.
quick pasting. nice work. i find these excuses to be pretty poor though.
would somebody objective assess the merits of those claims? my bias is pretty clear.
Shiggy (and others,) I would definitely reccomend this book:
for anyone who really wants to learn a complete and unbiased[/b] history of the modern day conflict.
Unbiased? But he's JEWISH! Just playing. But for real that guy is a tool. A better choice is O' Jerusalem. It's written by a Frenchman so even the Jew-haters can get down.
damn dont hate on TLF...sometimes his outlook is overly rosy but he is really easy to read and makes alot of god damn sense i think. saw him speak here last year and he is no tool.
At the end of the day, the situation in Israel reminds me of one of my personal philosophies, that being that "nobody is ever clean" and that the best we can all do is to just be the best people we can be and try to love one another as much as possible.
thanks cosmo! but i dont like reading. is there an unbiased documentary on the conflict?
on a side note, as a young child i never had any personal contact with ethnic jews. well, i knew a vietnamese kid that was adopted by a jewish family and i went to his manhood celebration thing which was kinda cool. dude got to bust out these old scrolls or something and wear the yamulka and scarf thing that i dont know the name of. then he sang a song and then we ate and fucking PARTIED! well, partied as much as junior high school country bumpkins could.
anyways, my only other contact with jews was the tv. mostly this conflict shit which always scared me. but i was also a huge fan of the tv show "northern exposure" and the main character was jewish. he made it seem cool. the conflict shit made it seem real fucking stupid.
anyways, i was talking with a coworker yesterday about that show "beauty and the geeks" which i might add is a pretty good show. anyways, i was telling her that them beer model girls are so patient and that's attractive to me but then there's that one autistic nerd that is so starved for attention/human contact that he winds up acting like a total ass most of the time. and the coworker girl was like "nah. he's just being jewish." well, i dont really like having long conversations with any of these ladies around here so i just left it at "well, now." and made my exit.
At the end of the day, the situation in Israel reminds me of one of my personal philosophies, that being that "nobody is ever clean" and that the best we can all do is to just be the best people we can be and try to love one another as much as possible.
I'm right now both weeping and throwing up simultaneuously.
For all of those people who are bashing Israel, what are your thoughts on the war in Iraq?
- our prez has admitted (on several occasions) that there is no link between iraq and 9-11, yet last night he went on nat'l television and said that we are in iraq because of 9-11.
so to recap -> we are over in iraq fighting a war because of an act of terrorism that occurred in the u.s., even though there is no evidence (as admitted by our prez) to connect saddam to 9-11.
meanwhile, thousands of innocent iraqi civilians have died in the past 2 years.
NOW COMPARE THIS WITH ISRAEL:
- innocent israelis face terroristic threats on a daily basis from palestinians terrorists. thousands of innocent israelis have died as a result of hundreds of acts of terrorism. there is no mystery as to whether the palestinians are responsible for these acts.
Can you bash Israel and support the war in Iraq? If so, explain.
At the end of the day, the situation in Israel reminds me of one of my personal philosophies, that being that "nobody is ever clean" and that the best we can all do is to just be the best people we can be and try to love one another as much as possible.
I'm right now both weeping and throwing up simultaneuously.
Comments
So it's "simple" for the people labeled as Palestinians to give up their land? But when it's time for israel to possibly give up the land they stole by force in the first place...it's not that "simple"???
I'm not saying Israel should not exist at all. I'm not saying they not should defend against invaders or terrorists within their borders.
I am saying they should do what they have to do BUT FUCKING PAY FOR IT THEIRDAMNSELVES!
The $3 billion per year (that's almost $1 million a day) has got to stop.
There are better ways to spend our money.
First of all, you are getting awfully personal accusing me of writing propaganda and sounding like the 14corners and twisting what I wrote about Amnesty. It is true that they other human rights groups like Betselem and human rights watch have criticized the organization's methodology in counting civilian victims of Israelis attacks. That has nothing to do with the retarded comments about the gulags of our time. Pointing out that there is an ocean of difference between Soviet Gulags and America's detention facilities is common sense grounded in historical prorportion. The burden is on you, Frank, to explain how to account for the order of magnitude difference in the number of victims of the Gulags and Bagram and Gitmo.
Second of all, your rejoinder makes no frickin sense. Back to the case at hand. Do you think Palestinians do not recruit teenagers, strap them with bombs and send them off to blow up civilians? Do you think Israel goes out of its way to kill civilians? If so, please back it up with something less flimsy than an amnesty report and the indictment of a suicide bomb recruiter.
Easier for an army to simply withdraw than for homes and communities to be forcibly moved. Surely you agree.
King David Hotel 1946:
The explosion destroyed part of the hotel and killed 91 people.
Most of the victims were British but 15 innocent Jews also died,
proving that radical Zionists are capable of...
even killing fellow Jews in order to advance their cause.
Oh, and lookie here...
Who's this?
The most notorious of these Zionist terror groups was the Irgun,
whose leader Menachem Begin[/b] [AKA--Vitamin's avatar]
would one day go on to become Prime Minister of Israel.
i dont know. it looks pretty easy on the tv when they just bulldoze that shit to the ground.
Frankly...yes.
Obviously Israel wasn't giving up "all the land the Palestinians want to cleanse of Jews" then.
Try as y'all might with your cries about suicide bombers to demonize the Palestinians...Israel is the initial criminal in this equation. Thus the burden is on Israel, especially since it has been backed with the might of US/Britain/etc., to fix the mess it has created.
Maybe that means German Jews should relocate back to Germany...I don't know, just do it already...make peace that is.
The bombing of the King David Hotel occurred in July 1946 and some saw it as a pivotal moment in recent Middle East history. The King David Hotel was the site for the British Military Command in Palestine. It also served as the headquarters of the British Criminal Investigation Division. The bombing of the hotel galvanised the British into realising that their time in Palestine was coming to an end.
On June 29th 1946, the British unexpectedly entered the premises of the Jewish Agency and took away with them a large number of documents ??? some of which were deemed to be sensitive. All the documents were taken to the King David Hotel where they were to be assessed by intelligence analysts. At around the same time, the British arrested 2,500 Jews in Palestine. Irgun, a Jewish secret organisation (deemed to be a terrorist group by the British) decided to target the hotel for vengeance and also as a way of destroying the documents that had been taken by the British.
The leader of Irgun, Menachem Begin, claimed that Irgun saw the hotel solely as a military building ??? and therefore a legitimate target. Begin claimed that three warnings were sent out on July 22nd 1946 about the planned attack to keep casualties to the minimum. Begin claimed that three phone calls were made to a) to the French Consulate b) to the hotel itself and c) to the "Palestine Post".
Any warnings were to no avail. The British did not evacuate the hotel and the bombing killed 91 people and injured 45. Ironically, few people in the hotel itself were killed ??? and Jews were among the casualties.
The Jewish National Council immediately condemned the attack.
Did the British know about the attack before hand? Were people sacrificed in an effort to disgrace the Jewish militant bodies in Palestine? For years, former members of Irgun claimed that the British did know about the attack and that warnings had been sent. For years the British denied that this was true. However, in 1979 evidence was presented to the House of Commons in London that Britain had received a credible warning. A former British Army officer based at the hotel admitted that he had heard other officers joking about a threat that had been made to the hotel. In later years, when Menachem Begin had moved into legitimate politics, he claimed that Irgun had sent a warning directly to the hotel but the person who sent the warning was told:
"We don???t take orders from the Jews."
What were the repercussions of the bombing? In the short term, Britain hardened its attitude to what it deemed were terrorist organisations. In the mid to long term, it realised that its mandate to run Palestine was coming to an end. The troubles experienced by the British before World War Two in Palestine had now become a lot worse and it was unlikely that they would get better. When the United Nations declared the existence of Israel, Britain quickly withdrew what was left of its forces in what was now named Israel.
Yes, you are correct.
1947: The UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, one for Jews and one for Palestinian Arabs, with Jerusalem to become and international enclave.
1948: Britain, who held rule over Palestine after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, withdrew from Palestine. Instead of implementing the UN partition plan, the surrounding Arab states join with the local Palestinians to try and prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. Thus was the 1948 War of Independence, and Israel was established anyway. Jordan at this time occupied the West Bank and Egypt moved troops into the Gaza Strip.
1956: Israel, joinging forces with Britain and France to attack Gamal Abdel Nasser's Egypt's encroaching troop masses south of Israel, occupies most of the the Sinai Peninsula. Under pressure from the United States and the Soviet Union, Israel withdraws.
1964: The PLO is formed in Cairo, put together by various Arab heads of state led by Gamal Abdel Nasser.
1967: Egypt, Syria and Jordan form an alliance to go to war with Israel. Israel launches a preemtive strike against these nations. The 6 Day Way ends with Israel occupying the Sinai, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and West Bank.
1973: Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack against Israeli forces in Sinai and Golan Hights.
1979: Egypt and Israel sign the peace treaty, full peace in exchange for total withdrawl from Sinai.
Shall I go on?
quick pasting. nice work. i find these excuses to be pretty poor though.
would somebody objective assess the merits of those claims? my bias is pretty clear.
Sinai Peninsula - Taken from Egypt in 6 Day War, was returned to Egypt in accordance to the peace treaty.
Golan Heights - Given back to Jordan in accordance to the peace treaty signed by Rabin and Abdul-Salam al-Majali
Gaza Strip & West Bank - Given to the Palestinian Authorities in accordance to the Olso accord.
I dont make relative justifications like you. Both terrorist approaches are wrong and clearly inneffective. That's why the US should stay out and you and your fucking crew should join the Army and walk the walk your fucking crazy ass talks.
I'm going to look at a rap rackord collection, bitches. Hug a nut.
knock yourself out. i like that each year is a paragraph long as that keeps my interest far more than posting legal proceedings or whatever. frankback, i didnt read any of that. its just so overwhelming. i mean, all them words and all.
Fact: When push came to shove the Zionist leadership eliminated the rogue right-wing militias that perpetrated the - albeit small number - of massacres in the War for Independence. Rabin went so far as to fire on the Etzel's ship Altalena, killing several on board. Menawhile we can't even get the Palestinian leadership to verbally condemn acts of terror on their side.
for anyone who really wants to learn a complete and unbiased[/b] history of the modern day conflict.
Actually, I don't think you have a clear bias.
I've had reason to think from your posts.
I'll think about this & post later.
Peace
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Unbiased? But he's JEWISH! Just playing. But for real that guy is a tool. A better choice is O' Jerusalem. It's written by a Frenchman so even the Jew-haters can get down.
YEAH!!!! NOW IT'S TIME FOR US DIRTY JEWS TO FIGHT EACH OTHER!!!!!!!!
[color:white]THIS ENTIRE THREAD MAKES ME SO FUCKING SAD. ALL I WANTED TO DO IS WARN PEOPLE ABOUT LOOKING AT THOSE NASTY HERNIA PHOTOS.[/color]
on a side note, as a young child i never had any personal contact with ethnic jews. well, i knew a vietnamese kid that was adopted by a jewish family and i went to his manhood celebration thing which was kinda cool. dude got to bust out these old scrolls or something and wear the yamulka and scarf thing that i dont know the name of. then he sang a song and then we ate and fucking PARTIED! well, partied as much as junior high school country bumpkins could.
anyways, my only other contact with jews was the tv. mostly this conflict shit which always scared me. but i was also a huge fan of the tv show "northern exposure" and the main character was jewish. he made it seem cool. the conflict shit made it seem real fucking stupid.
anyways, i was talking with a coworker yesterday about that show "beauty and the geeks" which i might add is a pretty good show. anyways, i was telling her that them beer model girls are so patient and that's attractive to me but then there's that one autistic nerd that is so starved for attention/human contact that he winds up acting like a total ass most of the time. and the coworker girl was like "nah. he's just being jewish." well, i dont really like having long conversations with any of these ladies around here so i just left it at "well, now." and made my exit.
I'm right now both weeping and throwing up simultaneuously.
- our prez has admitted (on several occasions) that there is no link between iraq and 9-11, yet last night he went on nat'l television and said that we are in iraq because of 9-11.
so to recap -> we are over in iraq fighting a war because of an act of terrorism that occurred in the u.s., even though there is no evidence (as admitted by our prez) to connect saddam to 9-11.
meanwhile, thousands of innocent iraqi civilians have died in the past 2 years.
NOW COMPARE THIS WITH ISRAEL:
- innocent israelis face terroristic threats on a daily basis from palestinians terrorists. thousands of innocent israelis have died as a result of hundreds of acts of terrorism. there is no mystery as to whether the palestinians are responsible for these acts.
Can you bash Israel and support the war in Iraq? If so, explain.
Alls I know is its long, filled with emotion on both sides and exposed Archaic as a man with major prejudices.
carry on...
Why is that, dog? Sappy, yes, but still...