Who is hating on the south? Just saying classic to me and i think most people means it hits everywhere, and there is no real debate over it. Out here alot of what's been listed worked for a minute but wouldn' be considered classic by most people out here and probably in most areas outside of its originating locale.
i swear this 'test of time' shit is the silliest argument ever.
wtf do you think the 'test of time' is, some objective force that hands down whether a song is CLASSIC FOR ALL TIME or DISPOSABLE PAP based on some objective fact? its fucking music dude. The 'test of time' = arguments people have after a song/album/whatever is released. And sometimes the 'test of time' is RONG, thus plenty of crate digging rediscoveries of albums that were unjustly ignored.
There is no objective truth about what is disposable and what is QUALITY, its consensus that decides these kind of things. Its hilarious to me that you dudes get all mad at 'sheep' who buy into 'disposable' popular rap ("I REJECT CONSENSUS!") but then call on the future generation's conception of QUALITY RAP as some sort of barometer of objective truth ("I SUPPORT THIS OTHER CONSENSUS!")
I mean talk about corny ... thats like the ultimate 'wait until rolling stone magazine oks it, then it will have passed the test of time.'
i swear this 'test of time' shit is the silliest argument ever.
wtf do you think the 'test of time' is, some objective force that hands down whether a song is CLASSIC FOR ALL TIME or DISPOSABLE PAP based on some objective fact? its fucking music dude. The 'test of time' = arguments people have after a song/album/whatever is released. And sometimes the 'test of time' is RONG, thus plenty of crate digging rediscoveries of albums that were unjustly ignored.
There is no objective truth about what is disposable and what is QUALITY, its consensus that decides these kind of things. Its hilarious to me that you dudes get all mad at 'sheep' who buy into 'disposable' popular rap ("I REJECT CONSENSUS!") but then call on the future generation's conception of QUALITY RAP as some sort of barometer of objective truth ("I SUPPORT THIS OTHER CONSENSUS!")
I mean talk about corny ... thats like the ultimate 'wait until rolling stone magazine oks it, then it will have passed the test of time.'
Just becausse a million beckys bought a song that was put on repeat by every program director in the nation does not mean that its classic and does not mean that there is a consensus that that song is a classic. I agree its a factor but once you throw in personal taste, the selections for classics are going to be all over initially. I think that eventually for the most part people end up tending to agree on classic cuts for any genre and that usually happens over time. Same with movies and any type of media. you have immediate reaction and that changes alot of times over time and after revisiting etc. I think its just as corny to ignore time as a factor as it is to ignore a song's popularity.
1. 1. Belonging to the highest rank or class. 2. Serving as the established model or standard: a classic example of colonial architecture. 3. Having lasting significance or worth; enduring.[/b] 2. 1. Adhering or conforming to established standards and principles: a classic piece of research. 2. Of a well-known type; typical: a classic mistake. 3. Of or characteristic of the literature, art, and culture of ancient Greece and Rome; classical. 4. 1. Formal, refined, and restrained in style. 2. Simple and harmonious; elegant: the classic cut of a suit; the classic lines of a clipper ship. 5. Having historical or literary associations: classic battlefields of the Civil War.
But it's a fad. It's not going to stand the test of time.
The same thing has been said of rock, rap, and most every other form of popular music. Some of the current directions rap music has taken not fitting into your view of what rap music should be does not mean the music is a fad.
Sorry buddy, this is hardly a new form of music. Heavy 808s and synths, as I'm sure you know, have been used for quite some time. There is nothing new about this music - beside how loud the guys yelling are or how many times the "hook" is repeated.
This music is simply put out for business sake....
Most music released since the creation of recorded music has had business concerns tied into its creation. I would say that the music you're dismissing in this thread is created and put out for a number of reasons, including, but in no way limited to, making money. Regardless, the motivation for creating and putting out the music is not something we are all privy to on a song-by-song basis - this is why it's helpful to listen to the music itself.
Who knows, maybe you're right. In my experience, you're completely wrong. This music, which I've seen made in front of my eyes - the exact hits you're talking about - are manufactured as such. A beat is made using a small option of sounds. Don't disagree with that - that's the case - pure and simple. HOOK WRITERS are then called by various A&Rs into the studio where the beat is played and the writers make something they feel is hit oriented - don't get it twisted. Getting a hit is the ONLY focus here. There's nothing else - all the artists/record people want is to make HITS. Understandable - money is good. I like money. You like money. But a formula is stuck to here that they assume will work best. There's no magic, no inspiration. If you think T-Pain sits for hours thinking of records that he feels better explain himself to the world and wants to try someting new - you're out of your mind. Getting back to the process, after the A&R has approved a hook...it's time to bring in the 'artist' where they write their lyrics within 30 mins or so and record in a few takes. Then, the A&Rs and execs are fully in charge of what the record will do from there on out. If marketing doesn't think the song is going to fit with the all over print design they've made for the promo shirts - it's scrapped. But maybe, maybe the exec likes it. Big deal - he knows nothing about "hip hop" or what makes good music. That doesn't matter - it's no longer really up to the 'artist' at this point because stocks are low and if this song can be the next in the sequence of classics like "Laffy Taffy,' 'Knuck If You Buck,' or 'Shawty,' (which have all or are on track to go platinum in ringtone status) - then the parent Beer company from Madagascar may not do any company restructuring that year and the CEO's job is safe. That's why the 'records I'm dismissing in this thread' came out. No other reasons. That's it. Now records like Feist, Built To Spill, what have you (off the top examples)....those records are kept on and put out for the sake of a)making what the label believes is quality material - even though it's risky and it probably won't sell well and b) to make the label look cool because they put it out - because it's risky and it probably won't sell well.
i mean if it was so apparently a classic - don't you think there wouldn't be so much of a conflict about it?
This just makes no sense. You really don't think there are a vast number of records, across all genres, that are considered classics today, but were highly contested upon their initial release?
I see what you're saying here because you can't see what I'm saying. We're talking about the word "classic" here. Read the definitions that were given above. Maybe I'm totally insane and we'll be seeing songs like "It's Goin Down" in every jukebox in the future - even though they have the EXACT same synth drum sounds employed as three records that came out earlier in the year and the 'artist' is speaking about NOTHING that's ANY different from ANY other song of this 'genre' on the radio. Maybe it'll hit that special chord in people that make people, 30+ years from now, say "God damn. I really just want to hear some Yung Joc right now because he's so prolific and Nitti's beats were SO ahead of their time and sounded like NOTHING else at that time - they were really in a class of their own."
People who make music for the sake of making good music generally have a better shot of making something that'll stand the test of time
Can we see some stats to back this up?
Read exactly what I said. Generally have a better shot. And sure thing...I'll get right on top of those stats for you. Do we really think that's such a hard thing to believe? When you're motivation to make something because you love what you're doing - more than anything - it's deeply rooted in you - and you want nothing more than to let people be a part of what you love so dearly - is going to be a product of better general quality - than one based solely on cashing in? Dude - I'm guilty of the exact shit myself! I've made records - ones that haven't even come out yet - that aren't 100% my forte - but I wanna get paid! I can't pass that up. I'm a victim of the race just as much as the next man. But I don't deny it - and I'm fully aware of what people are willing to sell for the sake of cashing in and movin up. they'll compromise their own tastes to the full extent to do what THEY THINK OTHERS EXPECT AND WILL PAY THEM FOR....and if you think that someone in that position has as good a chance of making something of beauty and longevity.....a real statement - you're crazy. It's the age old movie plot. C'mon man - you're smarter than that.
1) This whole argument ignores the fact that some of these songs were underground hits that LED to the artists/records getting picked up by majors, well before any 'execs' even had the opportunity to get involved.
2) The idea of a professional hook writer getting paid to write "ZOOM! ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM!" or "GET LOW GET LOW GET LOW" is hilarious. Thats the new dream job right there.
3) So-called 'golden era' records were also released/promoted with the intention of shifting units. And some of the stuff from back then that kids like to pretend is somehow more 'important' than rap of the past few years was wholly derivative and imitative of the classic stuff of that era, and has not stood the test of time AT ALL...
2) The idea of a professional hook writer getting paid to write "ZOOM! ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM!" or "GET LOW GET LOW GET LOW" is hilarious. Thats the new dream job right there.
Get at me.....depending on what city you're in - we can get you in a studio to lay down roughs asap....do you have a session fee? Any major placements thus far? Who's got your publishing? If I place this I want 20% of your pub and 10% of your fee. And most importantly, do you like Cheesecake Factory?
1) This whole argument ignores the fact that some of these songs were underground hits that LED to the artists/records getting picked up by majors, well before any 'execs' even had the opportunity to get involved.
"Laffy Taffy" and "Knuck If You Buck" certainly both were.
i swear this 'test of time' shit is the silliest argument ever.
wtf do you think the 'test of time' is, some objective force that hands down whether a song is CLASSIC FOR ALL TIME or DISPOSABLE PAP based on some objective fact? its fucking music dude. The 'test of time' = arguments people have after a song/album/whatever is released. And sometimes the 'test of time' is RONG, thus plenty of crate digging rediscoveries of albums that were unjustly ignored.
There is no objective truth about what is disposable and what is QUALITY, its consensus that decides these kind of things. Its hilarious to me that you dudes get all mad at 'sheep' who buy into 'disposable' popular rap ("I REJECT CONSENSUS!") but then call on the future generation's conception of QUALITY RAP as some sort of barometer of objective truth ("I SUPPORT THIS OTHER CONSENSUS!")
I mean talk about corny ... thats like the ultimate 'wait until rolling stone magazine oks it, then it will have passed the test of time.'
Just becausse a million beckys bought a song that was put on repeat by every program director in the nation does not mean that its classic and does not mean that there is a consensus that that song is a classic.
I don't know about all the "U mad" cracking in this thread, but I like all the songs I listed. I didn't list shit that I don't personally think is a destined classic. That's the great thing about a label like "classic"; it's totally subjective and opinionated, so why argue? Somebody here said "Classic" was being taken too seriously, and I agree.
And Woimsah, dude, you sound like you're trying to convert people here, and it's kind of condescending because it looks like you're telling some of us that we like music that we shouldn't like. We don't all listen for the same qualities in music as you. I don't think anybody in this thread is trying to say Laffy Taffy has some sort of rich, emotional tapestry woven into hypnotic, intricate synthetic snap rhythms. Some of us just like loud 'ignorant' music (note: I don't really think the shit I like is ignorant at all, but that is how a lot of people would describe it), some of us like that party shit, some of us like the clean, banging production, etc. Just because your ideals are different doesn't mean you should be all up in here trying to preach about how Crime Mob made their song from front to back and it didn't mean anything, or any of that shit. I'm just sayin'... I don't give a fuck if Nuk if u Buk has meaning, it's not something I'm trying to listen to and then go hug my bitch and cry. The point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't matter what the song means to the artist or how much thought or emotion went into the music, it matters what the song means to the listener and what the listener gets out of it. I could give a fuck how the song was made, I don't need to worry about all that shit to figure out if I like the song or not. So you trying to shine the light on the process used to make the music is like some player hater shit trying to turn us from liking the music. Shit is weak. I used to be all concerned with how a song was made, whether or not there were samples, whether or not there were live instruments or synths, whether or not the beat maker also produced the record, blah blah blah, but that shit doesn't matter, at all. You shouldn't have to worry about ANY of that to determine if you like the song. And if you don't like the song, then you don't like the song, no big deal, but why go out of your way to try and turn people? I ain't mad at ya though, sometimes you just gotta say what you feel. And finally, you talk like you're a major label producer or something, care to spill the beans on what it is you do to back up these claims that you know how every major label rap song is made from start to finish? Just curious.
And finally, you talk like you're a major label producer or something, care to spill the beans on what it is you do to back up these claims that you know how every major label rap song is made from start to finish?
He fetches lattes somewhere in the bowels of the Warner building.
Really, though, this whole routine of deriding music because it's supposedly manufactured by committee is beyond corny--not to mention, New York rappers are far more guilty of it than the club-oriented southern acts he's trying to hate on.
I don't know about all the "U mad" cracking in this thread, but I like all the songs I listed. I didn't list shit that I don't personally think is a destined classic. That's the great thing about a label like "classic"; it's totally subjective and opinionated, so why argue? Somebody here said "Classic" was being taken too seriously, and I agree.
And Woimsah, dude, you sound like you're trying to convert people here, and it's kind of condescending because it looks like you're telling some of us that we like music that we shouldn't like. We don't all listen for the same qualities in music as you. I don't think anybody in this thread is trying to say Laffy Taffy has some sort of rich, emotional tapestry woven into hypnotic, intricate synthetic snap rhythms. Some of us just like loud 'ignorant' music (note: I don't really think the shit I like is ignorant at all, but that is how a lot of people would describe it), some of us like that party shit, some of us like the clean, banging production, etc. Just because your ideals are different doesn't mean you should be all up in here trying to preach about how Crime Mob made their song from front to back and it didn't mean anything, or any of that shit. I'm just sayin'... I don't give a fuck if Nuk if u Buk has meaning, it's not something I'm trying to listen to and then go hug my bitch and cry. The point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't matter what the song means to the artist or how much thought or emotion went into the music, it matters what the song means to the listener and what the listener gets out of it. I could give a fuck how the song was made, I don't need to worry about all that shit to figure out if I like the song or not. So you trying to shine the light on the process used to make the music is like some player hater shit trying to turn us from liking the music. Shit is weak. I used to be all concerned with how a song was made, whether or not there were samples, whether or not there were live instruments or synths, whether or not the beat maker also produced the record, blah blah blah, but that shit doesn't matter, at all. You shouldn't have to worry about ANY of that to determine if you like the song. And if you don't like the song, then you don't like the song, no big deal, but why go out of your way to try and turn people? I ain't mad at ya though, sometimes you just gotta say what you feel. And finally, you talk like you're a major label producer or something, care to spill the beans on what it is you do to back up these claims that you know how every major label rap song is made from start to finish? Just curious.
You know what - I agree with you for the most part. If it moves you, it moves you. I just sort of compare that music to fast food. Processed bullshit - the same exact shit packaged a few different ways......instant gratification music. And the bitter old man comes out often when I think about kids listening to this shit who never will know about 99.9% about the music we talk about on here....music that has a story.....why did they make this? What's it about? What's the instrumentation. Different strokes for different folks though....i know how it goes. And he's right....they created a whole new division of latte fetchers because I was so ill at it and made me boss. Now I only fetch lattes for the best in the biz....I'm out of the bowels.
Busta Rhymes feat. Pharrell : Light Your A** On Fire
Outkast : Roses
Jay Z : Dear Summer
I'm surprised nobody mentionned those two : G Unit : Stunt 50 Cent : PIMP
I think that, while all these songs have been HITS, that none of them aside from "Beautiful" really have stood the test of time.
YES on "Addictive" and "Doobie Ashtray." No on "Still Ballin'" - I think that Pac has way to many other songs that could be considered true classics that overshadow this song.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
YES on "Addictive" and "Doobie Ashtray." No on "Still Ballin'" - I think that Pac has way to many other songs that could be considered true classics that overshadow this song.
C'mon now, I'm as big a fan of Devin as anyone, but Doobie Ashtray over Still Ballin???
Not even close in Texas, I could tell you that.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
I like the direction this thread has taken.
I think Woimsah makes some very valid points. I got into a similar discussion on another board recently, where the essence of my argument was that joints like "Lip Gloss" and "This Is Why I'm Hot" are essentially pop records, and they're produced in exactly the same way as most pop records are - by committee and to an already proven formula. "Laffy Taffy" and "Knuck If You Buck" may well have been legimate underground hits, but what I think Woimsah may be saying is that the success of those records resulted in a whole bunch of a&rs, producers and writers trying to be the ones who came up with the next "Laffy Taffy" or "Knuck If You Buck". Rap music in particular is full of examples where a particular sound or style of record will blow the fuck up, and then for months afterwards you'll be hearing variations on that theme everywhere. Remember when everyone started using TV themes as hooks after "The Show" was a hit? Or jacking the big-ass drums from Art Of Noise's "Beat Box" after that blew up? Or sampling AOR rock/pop when Trackmasters started hitting with that style?
Anyway, making records to a formula has never been a barrier to such records achieving legit and enduring classic status, which is where me and Woimsah may diverge. I certainly don't believe that trashy, transient music, irrespective of the genre, can't have any value. Music means different things to different people - some want to know the backstory to a song, and others are happy with something they can sing along or dance to. There's no "correct" response. To offer what may be a uniquely European perspective (although Aussie strutters are free to chime in), take Kylie Minogue. I can't think of too many better examples of someone who at one point epitomised that whole "just turn up and do your vocal" strain of manufactured pop, yet she's managed to sustain a 20-year career (including duetting with Nick Cave, ffs!) based on just that, and is regarded as a genuine Pop Culture Icon in many parts of the world. This doesn't make what she does indisputably great or anything; just that today's trash can easily become tomorrow's classic over time. Your mileage may vary, etc.
I just sort of compare that music to fast food. Processed bullshit - the same exact shit packaged a few different ways......instant gratification music.
out of the hundred or so songs mentioned in this thread, how much of it do you lump into this category of fast food music?
So basically that's a lot of classics being made the past few years. Great songs but not many classic albums, which is back to normal like in the early 80's when you think of it. Bambaataa never had a classic album, the Furious Five, T La Rock, Doug E Fresh, Audio II, Roxanne Shante never had albums on the same level as their singles.
So basically that's a lot of classics being made the past few years. Great songs but not many classic albums, which is back to normal like in the early 80's when you think of it. Bambaataa never had a classic album, the Furious Five, T La Rock, Doug E Fresh, Audio II, Roxanne Shante never had albums on the same level as their singles.
in the early 80s people weren't dropping very many albums but then i disagree w/ that contention that there haven't been many 'classics' made in the last few years.
Some might argue that there's a lot less consensus now, since rap became balkanized in terms of region & style, but I think that just means it will take a bit longer for the consensus to become obvious ... regardless i think there have been a good # of classic records since '99
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
So basically that's a lot of classics being made the past few years. Great songs but not many classic albums, which is back to normal like in the early 80's when you think of it. Bambaataa never had a classic album, the Furious Five, T La Rock, Doug E Fresh, Audio II, Roxanne Shante never had albums on the same level as their singles.
in the early 80s people weren't dropping very many albums
but then i disagree w/ that contention that there haven't been many 'classics' made in the last few years.
Some might argue that there's a lot less consensus now, since rap became balkanized in terms of region & style, but I think that just means it will take a bit longer for the consensus to become obvious ... regardless i think there have been a good # of classic records since '99
I just sort of compare that music to fast food. Processed bullshit - the same exact shit packaged a few different ways......instant gratification music.
out of the hundred or so songs mentioned in this thread, how much of it do you lump into this category of fast food music?
Frankly I don't really want to read back over every entry and review....but a few examples are Walk It Out, Laffy Taffy, Money In The Bank.....and did someone just say "Still Ballin?" I don't even know how to classify that....that shit's just straight god awful....I just think of the word classic much differently. This thread sorta turned from classic material into a BDS award thread. I mean even the shit I really like that's been mentioned here I still stray from calling "classic" beside In The Club because that track basically shut the world down. Same for Hey Ya....even though I'm still not sure if that's a hip hop/rap track. Whatever....enjoy the shit out of this music if you like it. I'm just so surprised it's really working.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I just sort of compare that music to fast food. Processed bullshit - the same exact shit packaged a few different ways......instant gratification music.
out of the hundred or so songs mentioned in this thread, how much of it do you lump into this category of fast food music?
Frankly I don't really want to read back over every entry and review....but a few examples are Walk It Out, Laffy Taffy, Money In The Bank.....and did someone just say "Still Ballin?" I don't even know how to classify that....that shit's just straight god awful....I just think of the word classic much differently. This thread sorta turned from classic material into a BDS award thread. I mean even the shit I really like that's been mentioned here I still stray from calling "classic" beside In The Club because that track basically shut the world down. Same for Hey Ya....even though I'm still not sure if that's a hip hop/rap track. Whatever....enjoy the shit out of this music if you like it. I'm just so surprised it's really working.
I've consistently watched Still Ballin take ~18 year old young men into zones of heightened consciousness that would make even Pete Rock reconsider what makes a great song.
And that's the kind of thing that makes Z-Ro such a hero for these young folks as well.
Standards have changed...and neither Still Ballin nor anything Z-Ro has ever done could even remotely be considered as candy pop.
I just sort of compare that music to fast food. Processed bullshit - the same exact shit packaged a few different ways......instant gratification music.
out of the hundred or so songs mentioned in this thread, how much of it do you lump into this category of fast food music?
Frankly I don't really want to read back over every entry and review....but a few examples are Walk It Out, Laffy Taffy
Your manufactured-by-committee critique does not apply to either of those songs; they are both representative of locally popular phenomena that were already artistically established before reaching a mass audience.
Now if you just don't like those records, that's fine, but that's really where it should end--there is no need to (inaccurately) impugn the artists' motives.
Comments
wtf do you think the 'test of time' is, some objective force that hands down whether a song is CLASSIC FOR ALL TIME or DISPOSABLE PAP based on some objective fact? its fucking music dude. The 'test of time' = arguments people have after a song/album/whatever is released. And sometimes the 'test of time' is RONG, thus plenty of crate digging rediscoveries of albums that were unjustly ignored.
There is no objective truth about what is disposable and what is QUALITY, its consensus that decides these kind of things. Its hilarious to me that you dudes get all mad at 'sheep' who buy into 'disposable' popular rap ("I REJECT CONSENSUS!") but then call on the future generation's conception of QUALITY RAP as some sort of barometer of objective truth ("I SUPPORT THIS OTHER CONSENSUS!")
I mean talk about corny ... thats like the ultimate 'wait until rolling stone magazine oks it, then it will have passed the test of time.'
Just becausse a million beckys bought a song that was put on repeat by every program director in the nation does not mean that its classic and does not mean that there is a consensus that that song is a classic. I agree its a factor but once you throw in personal taste, the selections for classics are going to be all over initially. I think that eventually for the most part people end up tending to agree on classic cuts for any genre and that usually happens over time. Same with movies and any type of media. you have immediate reaction and that changes alot of times over time and after revisiting etc. I think its just as corny to ignore time as a factor as it is to ignore a song's popularity.
adj.
1.
1. Belonging to the highest rank or class.
2. Serving as the established model or standard: a classic example of colonial architecture.
3. Having lasting significance or worth; enduring.[/b]
2.
1. Adhering or conforming to established standards and principles: a classic piece of research.
2. Of a well-known type; typical: a classic mistake.
3. Of or characteristic of the literature, art, and culture of ancient Greece and Rome; classical.
4.
1. Formal, refined, and restrained in style.
2. Simple and harmonious; elegant: the classic cut of a suit; the classic lines of a clipper ship.
5. Having historical or literary associations: classic battlefields of the Civil War.
Sorry buddy, this is hardly a new form of music. Heavy 808s and synths, as I'm sure you know, have been used for quite some time. There is nothing new about this music - beside how loud the guys yelling are or how many times the "hook" is repeated.
Who knows, maybe you're right. In my experience, you're completely wrong. This music, which I've seen made in front of my eyes - the exact hits you're talking about - are manufactured as such. A beat is made using a small option of sounds. Don't disagree with that - that's the case - pure and simple. HOOK WRITERS are then called by various A&Rs into the studio where the beat is played and the writers make something they feel is hit oriented - don't get it twisted. Getting a hit is the ONLY focus here. There's nothing else - all the artists/record people want is to make HITS. Understandable - money is good. I like money. You like money. But a formula is stuck to here that they assume will work best. There's no magic, no inspiration. If you think T-Pain sits for hours thinking of records that he feels better explain himself to the world and wants to try someting new - you're out of your mind.
Getting back to the process, after the A&R has approved a hook...it's time to bring in the 'artist' where they write their lyrics within 30 mins or so and record in a few takes. Then, the A&Rs and execs are fully in charge of what the record will do from there on out. If marketing doesn't think the song is going to fit with the all over print design they've made for the promo shirts - it's scrapped. But maybe, maybe the exec likes it. Big deal - he knows nothing about "hip hop" or what makes good music. That doesn't matter - it's no longer really up to the 'artist' at this point because stocks are low and if this song can be the next in the sequence of classics like "Laffy Taffy,' 'Knuck If You Buck,' or 'Shawty,' (which have all or are on track to go platinum in ringtone status) - then the parent Beer company from Madagascar may not do any company restructuring that year and the CEO's job is safe. That's why the 'records I'm dismissing in this thread' came out. No other reasons. That's it. Now records like Feist, Built To Spill, what have you (off the top examples)....those records are kept on and put out for the sake of a)making what the label believes is quality material - even though it's risky and it probably won't sell well and b) to make the label look cool because they put it out - because it's risky and it probably won't sell well.
I see what you're saying here because you can't see what I'm saying. We're talking about the word "classic" here. Read the definitions that were given above. Maybe I'm totally insane and we'll be seeing songs like "It's Goin Down" in every jukebox in the future - even though they have the EXACT same synth drum sounds employed as three records that came out earlier in the year and the 'artist' is speaking about NOTHING that's ANY different from ANY other song of this 'genre' on the radio. Maybe it'll hit that special chord in people that make people, 30+ years from now, say "God damn. I really just want to hear some Yung Joc right now because he's so prolific and Nitti's beats were SO ahead of their time and sounded like NOTHING else at that time - they were really in a class of their own."
Read exactly what I said. Generally have a better shot. And sure thing...I'll get right on top of those stats for you. Do we really think that's such a hard thing to believe? When you're motivation to make something because you love what you're doing - more than anything - it's deeply rooted in you - and you want nothing more than to let people be a part of what you love so dearly - is going to be a product of better general quality - than one based solely on cashing in? Dude - I'm guilty of the exact shit myself! I've made records - ones that haven't even come out yet - that aren't 100% my forte - but I wanna get paid! I can't pass that up. I'm a victim of the race just as much as the next man. But I don't deny it - and I'm fully aware of what people are willing to sell for the sake of cashing in and movin up. they'll compromise their own tastes to the full extent to do what THEY THINK OTHERS EXPECT AND WILL PAY THEM FOR....and if you think that someone in that position has as good a chance of making something of beauty and longevity.....a real statement - you're crazy. It's the age old movie plot. C'mon man - you're smarter than that.
2) The idea of a professional hook writer getting paid to write "ZOOM! ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM!" or "GET LOW GET LOW GET LOW" is hilarious. Thats the new dream job right there.
3) So-called 'golden era' records were also released/promoted with the intention of shifting units. And some of the stuff from back then that kids like to pretend is somehow more 'important' than rap of the past few years was wholly derivative and imitative of the classic stuff of that era, and has not stood the test of time AT ALL...
Get at me.....depending on what city you're in - we can get you in a studio to lay down roughs asap....do you have a session fee? Any major placements thus far? Who's got your publishing? If I place this I want 20% of your pub and 10% of your fee. And most importantly, do you like Cheesecake Factory?
"Laffy Taffy" and "Knuck If You Buck" certainly both were.
history is written by the victors.
And Woimsah, dude, you sound like you're trying to convert people here, and it's kind of condescending because it looks like you're telling some of us that we like music that we shouldn't like. We don't all listen for the same qualities in music as you. I don't think anybody in this thread is trying to say Laffy Taffy has some sort of rich, emotional tapestry woven into hypnotic, intricate synthetic snap rhythms. Some of us just like loud 'ignorant' music (note: I don't really think the shit I like is ignorant at all, but that is how a lot of people would describe it), some of us like that party shit, some of us like the clean, banging production, etc. Just because your ideals are different doesn't mean you should be all up in here trying to preach about how Crime Mob made their song from front to back and it didn't mean anything, or any of that shit. I'm just sayin'... I don't give a fuck if Nuk if u Buk has meaning, it's not something I'm trying to listen to and then go hug my bitch and cry. The point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't matter what the song means to the artist or how much thought or emotion went into the music, it matters what the song means to the listener and what the listener gets out of it. I could give a fuck how the song was made, I don't need to worry about all that shit to figure out if I like the song or not. So you trying to shine the light on the process used to make the music is like some player hater shit trying to turn us from liking the music. Shit is weak. I used to be all concerned with how a song was made, whether or not there were samples, whether or not there were live instruments or synths, whether or not the beat maker also produced the record, blah blah blah, but that shit doesn't matter, at all. You shouldn't have to worry about ANY of that to determine if you like the song. And if you don't like the song, then you don't like the song, no big deal, but why go out of your way to try and turn people? I ain't mad at ya though, sometimes you just gotta say what you feel. And finally, you talk like you're a major label producer or something, care to spill the beans on what it is you do to back up these claims that you know how every major label rap song is made from start to finish? Just curious.
He fetches lattes somewhere in the bowels of the Warner building.
Really, though, this whole routine of deriding music because it's supposedly manufactured by committee is beyond corny--not to mention, New York rappers are far more guilty of it than the club-oriented southern acts he's trying to hate on.
Dude should take his show to www.asshurtrockist.com.
2Pac - Still Ballin'
You know what - I agree with you for the most part. If it moves you, it moves you. I just sort of compare that music to fast food. Processed bullshit - the same exact shit packaged a few different ways......instant gratification music. And the bitter old man comes out often when I think about kids listening to this shit who never will know about 99.9% about the music we talk about on here....music that has a story.....why did they make this? What's it about? What's the instrumentation. Different strokes for different folks though....i know how it goes. And he's right....they created a whole new division of latte fetchers because I was so ill at it and made me boss. Now I only fetch lattes for the best in the biz....I'm out of the bowels.
Snoop Dogg : Beautiful
Busta Rhymes feat. Pharrell : Light Your A** On Fire
Outkast : Roses
Jay Z : Dear Summer
I'm surprised nobody mentionned those two :
G Unit : Stunt
50 Cent : PIMP
I think that, while all these songs have been HITS, that none of them aside from "Beautiful" really have stood the test of time.
YES on "Addictive" and "Doobie Ashtray." No on "Still Ballin'" - I think that Pac has way to many other songs that could be considered true classics that overshadow this song.
common - the sixth sense
pitch black - it's all real
the lox - ride or die bitch
hell yeah
C'mon now, I'm as big a fan of Devin as anyone, but Doobie Ashtray over Still Ballin???
Not even close in Texas, I could tell you that.
I think Woimsah makes some very valid points. I got into a similar discussion on another board recently, where the essence of my argument was that joints like "Lip Gloss" and "This Is Why I'm Hot" are essentially pop records, and they're produced in exactly the same way as most pop records are - by committee and to an already proven formula. "Laffy Taffy" and "Knuck If You Buck" may well have been legimate underground hits, but what I think Woimsah may be saying is that the success of those records resulted in a whole bunch of a&rs, producers and writers trying to be the ones who came up with the next "Laffy Taffy" or "Knuck If You Buck". Rap music in particular is full of examples where a particular sound or style of record will blow the fuck up, and then for months afterwards you'll be hearing variations on that theme everywhere. Remember when everyone started using TV themes as hooks after "The Show" was a hit? Or jacking the big-ass drums from Art Of Noise's "Beat Box" after that blew up? Or sampling AOR rock/pop when Trackmasters started hitting with that style?
Anyway, making records to a formula has never been a barrier to such records achieving legit and enduring classic status, which is where me and Woimsah may diverge. I certainly don't believe that trashy, transient music, irrespective of the genre, can't have any value. Music means different things to different people - some want to know the backstory to a song, and others are happy with something they can sing along or dance to. There's no "correct" response. To offer what may be a uniquely European perspective (although Aussie strutters are free to chime in), take Kylie Minogue. I can't think of too many better examples of someone who at one point epitomised that whole "just turn up and do your vocal" strain of manufactured pop, yet she's managed to sustain a 20-year career (including duetting with Nick Cave, ffs!) based on just that, and is regarded as a genuine Pop Culture Icon in many parts of the world. This doesn't make what she does indisputably great or anything; just that today's trash can easily become tomorrow's classic over time. Your mileage may vary, etc.
out of the hundred or so songs mentioned in this thread, how much of it do you lump into this category of fast food music?
but then i disagree w/ that contention that there haven't been many 'classics' made in the last few years.
Some might argue that there's a lot less consensus now, since rap became balkanized in terms of region & style, but I think that just means it will take a bit longer for the consensus to become obvious ... regardless i think there have been a good # of classic records since '99
Sounds like new thread needs to be made...
Frankly I don't really want to read back over every entry and review....but a few examples are Walk It Out, Laffy Taffy, Money In The Bank.....and did someone just say "Still Ballin?" I don't even know how to classify that....that shit's just straight god awful....I just think of the word classic much differently. This thread sorta turned from classic material into a BDS award thread. I mean even the shit I really like that's been mentioned here I still stray from calling "classic" beside In The Club because that track basically shut the world down. Same for Hey Ya....even though I'm still not sure if that's a hip hop/rap track. Whatever....enjoy the shit out of this music if you like it. I'm just so surprised it's really working.
I've consistently watched Still Ballin take ~18 year old young men into zones of heightened consciousness that would make even Pete Rock reconsider what makes a great song.
And that's the kind of thing that makes Z-Ro such a hero for these young folks as well.
Standards have changed...and neither Still Ballin nor anything Z-Ro has ever done could even remotely be considered as candy pop.
Your manufactured-by-committee critique does not apply to either of those songs; they are both representative of locally popular phenomena that were already artistically established before reaching a mass audience.
Now if you just don't like those records, that's fine, but that's really where it should end--there is no need to (inaccurately) impugn the artists' motives.