Isn't rejoicing over someone's death kinda...Falwellian?
I wasn't a fan, but still.
I don't want to derail what is surely a rewarding debate about the mainstream and radical expressions of the various world religions, but I would like to point out that there is a difference between denouncing bigotry and hatred and celebrating the death of another human being.
That is all.
Then it's a bit of a shame that bigotry and hatred didn't die along with Falwell, because I'd be raisin' a glass if it had.
Rich that is like asking "are there any Christian leaders who are tolerant of homosexuality?" the answer is, "of course".
It is a challenge in any religion to champion tolerance over zealotry. No religion is "better" or "worse" than the others at this.
I didn't hate Jerry Fallwell merely because he was a homophobe; if that's all you think it takes for me to develop such a bitter hatred for someone then you've got me pegged wrong.
Jerry Fallwell, unlike many reprehensible Imams and Priests elsewhere, had a direct line into our elected government and in my humble opinion stood for everything wrong with this country. When we live in a caliphate and a radical Muslim cleric is cleansing the land of fags and idolaters then I will take aim at that person.
I can name churches in the U.S. that accept and even celebrate homosexuality. Is there an Islamic equivilent??
So if it doesn't happen here, you're not interested.
Homosexuals ARE being killed by Islamic governments trying to cleanse their land of fags along with adulterers and even Christians.
But I guess you're right, when it starts happening here we can start recognizing and bitching about it, until then I'll shut the hell up and go cut my yard.
Rich that is like asking "are there any Christian leaders who are tolerant of homosexuality?" the answer is, "of course".
It is a challenge in any religion to champion tolerance over zealotry. No religion is "better" or "worse" than the others at this.
I didn't hate Jerry Fallwell merely because he was a homophobe; if that's all you think it takes for me to develop such a bitter hatred for someone then you've got me pegged wrong.
Jerry Fallwell, unlike many reprehensible Imams and Priests elsewhere, had a direct line into our elected government and in my humble opinion stood for everything wrong with this country. When we live in a caliphate and a radical Muslim cleric is cleansing the land of fags and idolaters then I will take aim at that person.
I can name churches in the U.S. that accept and even celebrate homosexuality. Is there an Islamic equivilent??
So if it doesn't happen here, you're not interested.
Homosexuals ARE being killed by Islamic governments trying to cleanse their land of fags along with adulterers and even Christians.
But I guess you're right, when it starts happening here we can start recognizing and bitching about it, until then I'll shut the hell up and go cut my yard.
My wife thanks you.
I just ran this through Google Translate:
"Having convinced myself that I have successfully claimed the moral highground, I will now exit the thread before anybody can effectively contradict me (I will be silently refreshing, though)"
Enki, In this global world we live in, the fact that millions of radical believers of ANY religion simply exist, even if not in the U.S., is just as scary and dangerous as anything we do have here and shouldn't be tolerated or ignored.
Rich that is like asking "are there any Christian leaders who are tolerant of homosexuality?" the answer is, "of course".
It is a challenge in any religion to champion tolerance over zealotry. No religion is "better" or "worse" than the others at this.
I didn't hate Jerry Fallwell merely because he was a homophobe; if that's all you think it takes for me to develop such a bitter hatred for someone then you've got me pegged wrong.
Jerry Fallwell, unlike many reprehensible Imams and Priests elsewhere, had a direct line into our elected government and in my humble opinion stood for everything wrong with this country. When we live in a caliphate and a radical Muslim cleric is cleansing the land of fags and idolaters then I will take aim at that person.
I can name churches in the U.S. that accept and even celebrate homosexuality. Is there an Islamic equivilent??
So if it doesn't happen here, you're not interested.
Homosexuals ARE being killed by Islamic governments trying to cleanse their land of fags along with adulterers and even Christians.
But I guess you're right, when it starts happening here we can start recognizing and bitching about it, until then I'll shut the hell up and go cut my yard.
My wife thanks you.
I just ran this through Google Translate:
"Having convinced myself that I have successfully claimed the moral highground, I will now exit the thread before anybody can effectively contradict me (I will be silently refreshing, though)"
If I posted that Pat Robertson shared his views no one would blink an eye, but I mention that Islam shares it, a religion that has been pasionately defended here by many, and it's a completely irrelevant opportunity for me to direct everyone's attention towards myself and my usual ignorant talking points against a faith practiced by half of the globe. My agenda wins again, if only in my mind.
Jonny....I respect your experience and I certainly can't claim to have the insight you do.
Is there ANY mainstream or radical Islam leader that is tolerant of homosexuality and if so, who are they??
You are a joke.
Facts: Indonesia is the largest Muslim majority country in the world. Indoisia is tolorent of homosexuality.
Do you want me to go on?
Indonesia is NOT a Theocracy so this is a bullshit answer...please go on.
Indonesia is a Muslim country. It is a democracy. If, as you say, all Muslims kill gays, then it would follow that Indonesians would. But they don't. Thus they must be tolerant toward gays. The Muslim leaders of Indonesia could easily pass laws making homosexuality a capitol crime. But they don't. Why? Because Muslims are not the one dimensional people that have created in your mind that you like to hate.
The only bullshit here is your bigoted hatred of an entire religon.
Jonny....I respect your experience and I certainly can't claim to have the insight you do.
Is there ANY mainstream or radical Islam leader that is tolerant of homosexuality and if so, who are they??
You are a joke.
Facts: Indonesia is the largest Muslim majority country in the world. Indoisia is tolorent of homosexuality.
Do you want me to go on?
Indonesia is NOT a Theocracy so this is a bullshit answer...please go on.
Indonesia is a Muslim country. It is a democracy. If, as you say, all Muslims kill gays, then it would follow that Indonesians would. But they don't. Thus they must be tolerant toward gays. The Muslim leaders of Indonesia could easily pass laws making homosexuality a capitol crime. But they don't. Why? Because Muslims are not the one dimensional people that have created in your mind that you like to hate.
The only bullshit here is your bigoted hatred of an entire religon.
Right now one of the big issues in Indonesia is keeping it from becoming a Theocracy because they are afraid that laws like these will become a reality.
Yeah...that's what I said dude..."All Muslims Kill Gays"
I don't think Jerry Falwell or the Religious Right have actually killed gay people, that doesn't change the fact that they hate and preach against homosexuality.
As far as one dimensional goes, of the 40 some odd Muslim run governments, which one(s) do NOT believe homosexuality is a crime against Allah punishable by death??
And yes, I dislike(hate if you like) any religion that preaches and practices intolerance, predjudice and hatred towards ANYONE.
I think context is everything here. were gays allowed to live in relative safety in Kandahar pre-Taliban? Sure maybe. But "gay Mecca" conjures images of an open, successful, visible gay community (think NY or SF) that almost surely did not exist in Kandahar. I don't think openly gay people enjoyed/enjoy anywhere near the level of positive exposure/rights that they do in the US. and the US is actually considered conservative on gay rights by much of Europe.
In the end, though, it may be hard to compare the US and Muslim world at all on this issue. This article in the Atlantic monthly is interesting in its exploration of attitudes toward gays in Saudi Arabia. basically while "being gay" is totally abhorrent and punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, a guy having sex with another guy is not. There's a sharp distinction, if this article is to be beleived, between gay as an identity and merely performing "gay" acts.
I think context is everything here. were gays allowed to live in relative safety in Kandahar pre-Taliban? Sure maybe. But "gay Mecca" conjures images of an open, successful, visible gay community (think NY or SF) that almost surely did not exist in Kandahar. I don't think openly gay people enjoyed/enjoy anywhere near the level of positive exposure/rights that they do in the US. and the US is actually considered conservative on gay rights by much of Europe.
Well I have not been to Afghanistan I am going on the reports of Muslims I know.
And context is everything - so while I do not think it was as open as San Francisco, it was open relative to the middle east. Certainly more open than many parts of this country.
And context is everything - so while I do not think it was as open as San Francisco, it was open relative to the middle east. Certainly more open than many parts of this country.
Jonny.....I took your advice and stopped typing for a few minutes.
I found out I was wrong and that in some Islamic run countries homosexuality is simply a crime punishable by prison time and not death, although the death penalty for this "crime" does exist in a good number of them.
More than 4,000 homosexuals have been executed in Iran alone post 1979. (The entire world decries the U.S. Death Penalty yet this stays under the radar)
There are no such laws in our country.
There are "sodomy laws" in the U.S. although the way they are written(not necessairliy enforced) they apply to ALL citizens regardless of sexual preference.
And like with Falwell, the argument is doctrine, not enforcement.
Religious intolerance was the topic and I didn't see why we should give Mr. Falwell credit for having a monopoly on this form of hatred.
If I read your argument correctly you are saying people on Soulstrut are hypocrites because they condemn Jerry Fallwell's Christian opposition to homosexuality and have not mentioned Islam's opposition to it.
Your argument is Christianity and Islam are both religions, both have similar stances on homosexuality, if you condemn one without the other you are a hypocrite.
Here's an anology.
Over in the NBA thread people are condemning the suspensions of Stoudamire and Diaw over "bad conduct" by the NBA. No one in that thread mentioned that the NFL recenlty suspended players for "bad conduct." If Football and basketball are both sports, and they have both suspended players for "bad conduct" then if the people in the NBA thread don't also criticize the NFL's actions then they are hypocrites.
The reason the comparison doesn't work is because football and basketball are different sports and the suspensions are not only different situations, but unrelated to each other, just as the criticism of Falwell and his version of Christianity has nothing to do with Islam's stance on homosexuality because they are different religions and different circumstances, one unrelated to the other.
2) You don't seem to know what Islam is about nor what Muslims you are talking about.
At first you said "mainstream" Muslims, then it was "radical" Muslims, then it was Muslims living under a caliphate. There are NO Muslims living under a caliphate. The only Muslims that call for such are a rule are radical Islamists. There aren't even that many countries with large numbers of Muslims that apply Islamic law. The vast majority do not.
Jon....Article 427 of their Penal Code states that homosexuality is a crime.
In 2007
Right....... and it probably did before too. My point is that Islamic society is a bit more nuanced than you're giving it credit for being. Your point is to out me as a supporter of radical Islam.
If I read your argument correctly you are saying people on Soulstrut are hypocrites because they condemn Jerry Fallwell's Christian opposition to homosexuality and have not mentioned Islam's opposition to it.
Your argument is Christianity and Islam are both religions, both have similar stances on homosexuality, if you condemn one without the other you are a hypocrite.
Here's an anology.
Over in the NBA thread people are condemning the suspensions of Stoudamire and Diaw over "bad conduct" by the NBA. No one in that thread mentioned that the NFL recenlty suspended players for "bad conduct." If Football and basketball are both sports, and they have both suspended players for "bad conduct" then if the people in the NBA thread don't also criticize the NFL's actions then they are hypocrites.
The reason the comparison doesn't work is because football and basketball are different sports and the suspensions are not only different situations, but unrelated to each other, just as the criticism of Falwell and his version of Christianity has nothing to do with Islam's stance on homosexuality because they are different religions and different circumstances, one unrelated to the other.
While I understand your analogy, I have a hard time comparing sports to life and death issues.
If someone was to go into the basketball thread and bring up the NFL and someone's reaction was that punishment in one sport was OK, but in another it was unacceptable, that would indeed be similar hypocrisy.
Religious Intolerance is Religious Intolerance and hatred towards a group of people is hatred regardless of how old or how indoctrinated that hatred is, plain and simple.
I didn't expect folks to just bring up other comparisons to Falwell on their own, I did so on purpose because I dislike the double standards perpetuated here.[/b]
2) You don't seem to know what Islam is about nor what Muslims you are talking about.
At first you said "mainstream" Muslims, then it was "radical" Muslims, then it was Muslims living under a caliphate. There are NO Muslims living under a caliphate. The only Muslims that call for such are a rule are radical Islamists. There aren't even that many countries with large numbers of Muslims that apply Islamic law. The vast majority do not.
I am probably guilty of incorrect semantics. How would you define mainstream Islam. I look at 40+ countries that have Muslim Governments and assume that's the "mainstream". What would you define as "mainstream"??
Every Islamic run country that I could find info about have laws against homosexuality.
I've asked folks for info to the contrary but have yet to see any.[/b]
Logic and facts don't apply to Rich. You - and everyone else - are wasting your time and knowledge on a fool's errand. As faux wisely learned, the only reasonable response is either ridicule or avoidance.
It's not, per se, effective but yet oddly satisfying, no?
Amazingly, I think the same thing......and I think I've presented more facts and logic than anyone on the other side.....I just don't need to ask for reinforcement from others to believe it....no?
Comments
Then it's a bit of a shame that bigotry and hatred didn't die along with Falwell, because I'd be raisin' a glass if it had.
Another Rockadelic classic.
I just ran this through Google Translate:
"Having convinced myself that I have successfully claimed the moral highground, I will now exit the thread before anybody can effectively contradict me (I will be silently refreshing, though)"
ZING-A LING!
Indonesia is NOT a Theocracy so this is a bullshit answer...please go on.
And I type very slowly.
I love this place.
Will you cut my lawn??
I already pointed out that yes there is. I guess if I post facts that don't fit into your bigoted world view you will ignore them.
Indonesia is a Muslim country. It is a democracy. If, as you say, all Muslims kill gays, then it would follow that Indonesians would. But they don't. Thus they must be tolerant toward gays. The Muslim leaders of Indonesia could easily pass laws making homosexuality a capitol crime. But they don't. Why? Because Muslims are not the one dimensional people that have created in your mind that you like to hate.
The only bullshit here is your bigoted hatred of an entire religon.
"I doubt that he could read a long book at all."
hahahhaha.
Hitchens got that deadpan thing down.
(BTW He's dead wrong on Israel but that's another thread.
Hitchens is dead wrong on an ever-increasing number of things, but he is still the dude.
Right now one of the big issues in Indonesia is keeping it from becoming a Theocracy because they are afraid that laws like these will become a reality.
Yeah...that's what I said dude..."All Muslims Kill Gays"
I don't think Jerry Falwell or the Religious Right have actually killed gay people, that doesn't change the fact that they hate and preach against homosexuality.
As far as one dimensional goes, of the 40 some odd Muslim run governments, which one(s) do NOT believe homosexuality is a crime against Allah punishable by death??
And yes, I dislike(hate if you like) any religion that preaches and practices intolerance, predjudice and hatred towards ANYONE.
You don't??
No doubt. So smart and an absolute killer if he's playing for your side.
I've heard that his thoughts on 9/11 are quite out there, though.
In the end, though, it may be hard to compare the US and Muslim world at all on this issue. This article in the Atlantic monthly is interesting in its exploration of attitudes toward gays in Saudi Arabia. basically while "being gay" is totally abhorrent and punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, a guy having sex with another guy is not. There's a sharp distinction, if this article is to be beleived, between gay as an identity and merely performing "gay" acts.
Well I have not been to Afghanistan I am going on the reports of Muslims I know.
And context is everything - so while I do not think it was as open as San Francisco, it was open relative to the middle east. Certainly more open than many parts of this country.
Jonny.....I took your advice and stopped typing for a few minutes.
I found out I was wrong and that in some Islamic run countries homosexuality is simply a crime punishable by prison time and not death, although the death penalty for this "crime" does exist in a good number of them.
More than 4,000 homosexuals have been executed in Iran alone post 1979.
(The entire world decries the U.S. Death Penalty yet this stays under the radar)
There are no such laws in our country.
There are "sodomy laws" in the U.S. although the way they are written(not necessairliy enforced) they apply to ALL citizens regardless of sexual preference.
And like with Falwell, the argument is doctrine, not enforcement.
Religious intolerance was the topic and I didn't see why we should give Mr. Falwell credit for having a monopoly on this form of hatred.
Jon....Article 427 of their Penal Code states that homosexuality is a crime.
In 2007
http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/fliers.html
1) You're making a false comparison.
If I read your argument correctly you are saying people on Soulstrut are hypocrites because they condemn Jerry Fallwell's Christian opposition to homosexuality and have not mentioned Islam's opposition to it.
Your argument is Christianity and Islam are both religions, both have similar stances on homosexuality, if you condemn one without the other you are a hypocrite.
Here's an anology.
Over in the NBA thread people are condemning the suspensions of Stoudamire and Diaw over "bad conduct" by the NBA. No one in that thread mentioned that the NFL recenlty suspended players for "bad conduct." If Football and basketball are both sports, and they have both suspended players for "bad conduct" then if the people in the NBA thread don't also criticize the NFL's actions then they are hypocrites.
The reason the comparison doesn't work is because football and basketball are different sports and the suspensions are not only different situations, but unrelated to each other, just as the criticism of Falwell and his version of Christianity has nothing to do with Islam's stance on homosexuality because they are different religions and different circumstances, one unrelated to the other.
2) You don't seem to know what Islam is about nor what Muslims you are talking about.
At first you said "mainstream" Muslims, then it was "radical" Muslims, then it was Muslims living under a caliphate. There are NO Muslims living under a caliphate. The only Muslims that call for such are a rule are radical Islamists. There aren't even that many countries with large numbers of Muslims that apply Islamic law. The vast majority do not.
Right....... and it probably did before too. My point is that Islamic society is a bit more nuanced than you're giving it credit for being. Your point is to out me as a supporter of radical Islam.
Logic and facts don't apply to Rich. You - and everyone else - are wasting your time and knowledge on a fool's errand. As faux wisely learned, the only reasonable response is either ridicule or avoidance.
It's not, per se, effective but yet oddly satisfying, no?
Amazingly, I think the same thing......and I think I've presented more facts and logic than anyone on the other side.....I just don't need to ask for reinforcement from others to believe it....no?
Enjoy, with my compliments.
Damn.....what Mosque is THAT!!??