You mistrust Islam and Christianity but you think Hitchens' book is too radical for you?
Please to define what you mean by: "i'm a realist"?
Personally, I'm not a fan of any organized religion. Doesn't make me an atheist but I'm definitely not a "true believer" of any school of theocratic thought.
Enki, In this global world we live in, the fact that millions of radical believers[/b] of ANY religion simply exist, even if not in the U.S., is just as scary and dangerous as anything we do have here and shouldn't be tolerated or ignored.
And here I thought we were talking about "mainstream" Islam.
You need to step up your comprehension game....the comment was that the U.S. didn't have any RADICAL Muslims the equal of the Religious Right within it's borders.
My reply was that in this day and age these RADICALS are dangerous regardless of where they are.
Where are the FACTS that you were gonna post about mainstrem Islamic tolerance towards homosexuality.
No, it's your obsession - and you look way too hard for it.
I wasn't thrilled by this whole "pissing on Falwell's grave" thread, as much as I despised the man ... but it was YOU who decided that people hating on Falwell made them hypocrites for decrying "radical christianity" and not "radical islam" ... even though I have yet to see anyone on here "support" what you want to call "radical islam" ... your whole routine of taking a person's position on something and saying "if they feel this way then they must feel this way, too" is both absurd and, frankly, tired.
Not everyone belives the same things you do, Rich. It's that simple.
And the people who hated Falwell for his stands on Gays & Jews are not automatically apologists for islam - yet you insist they must be.
2) If Falwell's stance on issues like Apartheid and intolerance towards things like Homosexuality justify intense hatred, why don't you have the same hatred for a religion like mainstream Islam which basically has the same beliefs? (I dislike them both equally)
I think you have a very skewed idea of what mainstream Islam is.
What is mainstream Islam's views on homosexuality??
We can start there.
Dude - Rich - ALL THREE major religions ban homosexuality. There are varying degrees of adherence to a strict reading of the holy books in every religion. There are gay Muslims, gay Christians, LOTS of gay Jews (lol) and homophobes as well. There is a vast middle ground of varying degrees of tolerance. I hate to ask this but do you know many Muslims? It doesn't sound like it.
I'm not even going to START getting into this debate with you; we've had it several times over. If you are so interested in learning about Islam why don't you start by going to a mosque.
Until then, I will respectfully view your posts on the matter as uninformed at best.
Jonny....this is absurd.
The fact that there are gay Christians doesn't discount Falwell's views any more than the fact that there are gay Muslims discount the fact that the GREAT MAJORITY of Imams and Muslim leaders are intolerant of and preach against homosexuality.
Until you can post facts to the contrary, it will be me, viewing your posts as short sighted and skewed.
Rich, I was a practicing Muslim for many years. I have been to mosque. I have prayed next to men of varying degrees of religious zeal. You are blusterous and sensationalist. I will not have this discussion with you. You have headlines and media reports. I have experience and discussion. I invite you to spend some time investigating the Muslim faith as it is a beautiful one, and far more complex than you give it credit for being.
You mistrust Islam and Christianity but you think Hitchens' book is too radical for you?
Please to define what you mean by: "i'm a realist"?
Personally, I'm not a fan of any organized religion. Doesn't make me an atheist but I'm definitely not a "true believer" of any school of theocratic thought.
As a 'realist" I don't have to trust ANY religion as I don't subscribe to any of their doctrines as a whole.
I also am realistic enough to recognize that I don't have the answers to all of life's questions.
The athiests I have met(and am related to) are just as intolerant of anything outside their scope of belief(or non-belief) as any organized religion.
Just the simple fact that Hitchens book is described as a "manifesto"(on the link you provided) tells me I'm not interested in reading it outside of comedic entertainment.
Just the simple fact that Hitchens book is described as a "manifesto"(on the link you provided) tells me I'm not interested in reading it outside of comedic entertainment.
Wow, so what you're saying is:
Publisher's Weekly > your ability to form an independent opinion?
No, it's your obsession - and you look way too hard for it.
I wasn't thrilled by this whole "pissing on Falwell's grave" thread, as much as I despised the man ... but it was YOU who decided that people hating on Falwell made them hypocrites for decrying "radical christianity" and not "radical islam" ... even though I have yet to see anyone on here "support" what you want to call "radical islam" ... your whole routine of taking a person's position on something and saying "if they feel this way then they must feel this way, too" is both absurd and, frankly, tired.
Not everyone belives the same things you do, Rich. It's that simple.
And the people who hated Falwell for his stands on Gays & Jews are not automatically apologists for islam - yet you insist they must be.
Believe me, you don't have far to look here.
What is it that my original post said I "believed" that you make reference to??
I said I didn't like Falwell, didn't like intolerance and didn't like ANY religion that promoted such.
Tell me who doesn't believe in that??
Put me on ignore if your 'tired" of my style of posting.
Enki, In this global world we live in, the fact that millions of radical believers[/b] of ANY religion simply exist, even if not in the U.S., is just as scary and dangerous as anything we do have here and shouldn't be tolerated or ignored.
And here I thought we were talking about "mainstream" Islam.
You need to step up your comprehension game....the comment was that the U.S. didn't have any RADICAL Muslims the equal of the Religious Right within it's borders.
My comment was that there is no Muslim equivalent of Jerry Falwell in America. Sure there are Muslims who are as religiously batshit as Falwell or any other religiously batshit Christian, but none of them have anwhere near the political clout Falwell did.
But as someone who has been attacked here for not respecting certain religions, I have two serious questions for those Strutters who are enjoying their Falwell grave dancing today.
1) If simple cartoons attacking RADICAL ISLAM are insulting to ALL Muslims, then why aren't similar attacks on the Religious Right insulting to ALL Christians? And how could you support one and damn the other? (I don't think either are true)
2) If Falwell's stance on issues like Apartheid and intolerance towards things like Homosexuality justify intense hatred, why don't you have the same hatred for a religion like mainstream Islam which basically has the same beliefs? (I dislike them both equally)
Sorry, O but I'll toss him a treat.
1) You don't think either statement is true. I agree. But you then ask how can you support one false statement and not the other false statement. I don't. Maybe Saba or dolo can answer, they probably believe both statements.
2) The difference between Falwell and Islam is that only Falwell has power in my Country. His influence in my government effects my life. As an American I am able to work against his influence and I do.
I have hatred for countries where Sharia law is used to repress people. That is why I support groups like Amnesty International who work to put international pressure on those countries to respect human rights. I also try to lessen my energy footprint so that we wont be beholden to those countries. That is why I supported the overthrow of the Taliban even before Bush was elected. That is why I was appalled when Bush moved to normalize relationships with the Taliban and sent them tax payer money. That is why I don't support Bush's policy toward Saudi Arabia.
I have a couple of questions for you: 1) Don't you think these questions were stupid? 2) Why did you ask them?
Isn't rejoicing over someone's death kinda...Falwellian?
I wasn't a fan, but still.
I don't want to derail what is surely a rewarding debate about the mainstream and radical expressions of the various world religions, but I would like to point out that there is a difference between denouncing bigotry and hatred and celebrating the death of another human being.
I still want to know what people denouncing Falwell's public views on homosexuality and Jews has to do with Islam, how it makes them "hypocrites" when I have yet to see anyone on this board say they agree with any statements made by a follower of Islam regarding the same positions ... it seems you are surrounded by an army of straw men, Rich.
And I don't put people on ignore just because they are tiresome.
I have a couple of questions for you: 1) Don't you think these questions were stupid? 2) Why did you ask them?
A very wise man once told me, "There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers"
And I asked them because I saw a group of people, celebrating the death of a man who they felt was intolerant, while in the past these same people defended an entire religion(against me) that is just as intolerant and in many ways very similar in their beliefs.
And yes, I was trying to get these folks to recognize the hypocrisy in these views and possibly change them in the future.
Is looking at this kind of logic annoying, dangerous or counter-productive??
Should this have just stayed a Grave Dancing thread ??
I'm simply questioning how Falwell's intolerance of homosexuality is any different than the currently recognized and accepted Islamic doctrine.
To echo Dan's point: these two things have fairly little to do with one another. That's precisely why no one is bothering to respond to such a silly and disingenuous query to begin with.
If an Islamic leader, in any country, came out and said, "9/11 was God's punishment for America's embrace of gays and feminists" I'm pretty sure people who be on, "fuck that shit" attitude too.
Of course, in Falwell's case, his 9/11 comments are merely the tip of the iceberg for why he's so loathed by many.
"This user is ignoring your comments until you post according to his demands."
I love how it's presented as some radical doghouse I've been placed in, when it's pretty much his default mode of interaction with the community.
I predict a tirade about people trying to silence him in the near future.
I predict you won't post a single fact.
I think sufficient responsive facts have already been posted.
Do you need me to digest them for you?
My computer must be on the fritz....please, for my benefit, C&P the post that stated the fact of how the evil Falwell and the Islamic doctrine differed in their tolerance of homosexuality.
Rich that is like asking "are there any Christian leaders who are tolerant of homosexuality?" the answer is, "of course".
It is a challenge in any religion to champion tolerance over zealotry. No religion is "better" or "worse" than the others at this.
I didn't hate Jerry Fallwell merely because he was a homophobe; if that's all you think it takes for me to develop such a bitter hatred for someone then you've got me pegged wrong.
Jerry Fallwell, unlike many reprehensible Imams and Priests elsewhere, had a direct line into our elected government and in my humble opinion stood for everything wrong with this country. When we live in a caliphate and a radical Muslim cleric is cleansing the land of fags and idolaters then I will take aim at that person.
I still want to know what people denouncing Falwell's public views on homosexuality and Jews has to do with Islam, how it makes them "hypocrites" when I have yet to see anyone on this board say they agree with any statements made by a follower of Islam regarding the same positions ... it seems you are surrounded by an army of straw men, Rich.
And I don't put people on ignore just because they are tiresome.
Never mentioned the word Jew in any of my posts.
And why is pointing out that Falwell's intolerance is shared by another group/person so outrageous.
If I posted that Pat Robertson shared his views no one would blink an eye, but I mention that Islam shares it, a religion that has been pasionately defended here by many, and it's out of line.
Seems to me that you'd rather ignore this comparison than recognize it.
And to LW....do you SERIOUSLY think that Islam doesn't efect your life here in the U.S. when an entire foreign policy is built based on it's radical factions.??
Jerry Fallwell, unlike many reprehensible Imams and Priests elsewhere, had a direct line into our elected government and in my humble opinion stood for everything wrong with this country. When we live in a caliphate and a radical Muslim cleric is cleansing the land of fags and idolaters then I will take aim at that person.
Has there ever been a RIP thread for any (non-American musician) Muslim on soulstrut?
In fairness, this is neither here nor there.
If there was an (non-American musician) Muslim that had the influence on the Soulstrut community that, say, James Brown or Dilla (to name only a few RIP threads) did, best beleive there'd be an RIP thread on him/her.
You seem to suggest that the Strut doesn't care when Muslims die. The truth is the Strut doesn't care when most people die.
Jerry Fallwell, unlike many reprehensible Imams and Priests elsewhere, had a direct line into our elected government and in my humble opinion stood for everything wrong with this country. When we live in a caliphate and a radical Muslim cleric is cleansing the land of fags and idolaters then I will take aim at that person.
That's a wrap, batches!
Yes. Exactly. Precisely. Thank you, good night, and drive safely.
If I posted that Pat Robertson shared his views no one would blink an eye, but I mention that Islam shares it, a religion that has been pasionately defended here by many, and it's out of line.
WOW
Perhaps because Pat Robertson is but one individual--an individual whose public positions generally resemble those of Falwell--while Islam is a global faith, subscribed to by millions, and which has many, many different variations.
Seems to me that you'd rather ignore this comparison than recognize it.
I don't think anyone's ignoring it--perhaps "ridiculing" is the term you seek?
Rich that is like asking "are there any Christian leaders who are tolerant of homosexuality?" the answer is, "of course".
It is a challenge in any religion to champion tolerance over zealotry. No religion is "better" or "worse" than the others at this.
I didn't hate Jerry Fallwell merely because he was a homophobe; if that's all you think it takes for me to develop such a bitter hatred for someone then you've got me pegged wrong.
Jerry Fallwell, unlike many reprehensible Imams and Priests elsewhere, had a direct line into our elected government and in my humble opinion stood for everything wrong with this country. When we live in a caliphate and a radical Muslim cleric is cleansing the land of fags and idolaters then I will take aim at that person.
I can name churches in the U.S. that accept and even celebrate homosexuality. Is there an Islamic equivilent??
So if it doesn't happen here, you're not interested.
Homosexuals ARE being killed by Islamic governments trying to cleanse their land of fags along with adulterers and even Christians.
But I guess you're right, when it starts happening here we can start recognizing and bitching about it, until then I'll shut the hell up and go cut my yard.
Comments
You mistrust Islam and Christianity but you think Hitchens' book is too radical for you?
Please to define what you mean by: "i'm a realist"?
Personally, I'm not a fan of any organized religion. Doesn't make me an atheist but I'm definitely not a "true believer" of any school of theocratic thought.
You need to step up your comprehension game....the comment was that the U.S. didn't have any RADICAL Muslims the equal of the Religious Right within it's borders.
My reply was that in this day and age these RADICALS are dangerous regardless of where they are.
Where are the FACTS that you were gonna post about mainstrem Islamic tolerance towards homosexuality.
Until that post, your comments are moot.
Oh snap. the gauntlet is thrown.
"This user is ignoring your comments until you post according to his demands."
No, it's your obsession - and you look way too hard for it.
I wasn't thrilled by this whole "pissing on Falwell's grave"
thread, as much as I despised the man ... but it was YOU who
decided that people hating on Falwell made them hypocrites for
decrying "radical christianity" and not "radical islam" ... even
though I have yet to see anyone on here "support" what you want to
call "radical islam" ... your whole routine of taking a person's
position on something and saying "if they feel this way then they
must feel this way, too" is both absurd and, frankly, tired.
Not everyone belives the same things you do, Rich. It's that simple.
And the people who hated Falwell for his stands on Gays & Jews are not
automatically apologists for islam - yet you insist they must be.
Rich, I was a practicing Muslim for many years. I have been to mosque. I have prayed next to men of varying degrees of religious zeal. You are blusterous and sensationalist. I will not have this discussion with you. You have headlines and media reports. I have experience and discussion. I invite you to spend some time investigating the Muslim faith as it is a beautiful one, and far more complex than you give it credit for being.
I love how it's presented as some radical doghouse I've been placed in, when it's pretty much his default mode of interaction with the community.
I predict a tirade about people trying to silence him in the near future.
As a 'realist" I don't have to trust ANY religion as I don't subscribe to any of their doctrines as a whole.
I also am realistic enough to recognize that I don't have the answers to all of life's questions.
The athiests I have met(and am related to) are just as intolerant of anything outside their scope of belief(or non-belief) as any organized religion.
Just the simple fact that Hitchens book is described as a "manifesto"(on the link you provided) tells me I'm not interested in reading it outside of comedic entertainment.
If that makes me ignorant, so be it.
Wow, so what you're saying is:
Publisher's Weekly > your ability to form an independent opinion?
Believe me, you don't have far to look here.
What is it that my original post said I "believed" that you make reference to??
I said I didn't like Falwell, didn't like intolerance and didn't like ANY religion that promoted such.
Tell me who doesn't believe in that??
Put me on ignore if your 'tired" of my style of posting.
My comment was that there is no Muslim equivalent of Jerry Falwell in America. Sure there are Muslims who are as religiously batshit as Falwell or any other religiously batshit Christian, but none of them have anwhere near the political clout Falwell did.
I predict you won't post a single fact.
Sorry, O but I'll toss him a treat.
1) You don't think either statement is true. I agree. But you then ask how can you support one false statement and not the other false statement. I don't. Maybe Saba or dolo can answer, they probably believe both statements.
2) The difference between Falwell and Islam is that only Falwell has power in my Country. His influence in my government effects my life. As an American I am able to work against his influence and I do.
I have hatred for countries where Sharia law is used to repress people. That is why I support groups like Amnesty International who work to put international pressure on those countries to respect human rights. I also try to lessen my energy footprint so that we wont be beholden to those countries. That is why I supported the overthrow of the Taliban even before Bush was elected. That is why I was appalled when Bush moved to normalize relationships with the Taliban and sent them tax payer money. That is why I don't support Bush's policy toward Saudi Arabia.
I have a couple of questions for you:
1) Don't you think these questions were stupid?
2) Why did you ask them?
You mean the same way you're "ignoring" Faux?
Rich, you're on a roll today.
And I'm not judging or accusing any individuals of anything.
I'm simply questioning how Falwell's intolerance of homosexuality is any different than the currently recognized and accepted Islamic doctrine.
I didn't just pull this out of my ass without spending time looking into it myself.
I can't find any proof otherwise.
Is there ANY mainstream or radical Islam leader that is tolerant of homosexuality and if so, who are they??
You seem to be in a position to prove my conclusion wrong, and should be able to do so without a long drawn out argument.
Faux is the reason I exist
I think sufficient responsive facts have already been posted.
Do you need me to digest them for you?
I don't want to derail what is surely a rewarding debate about the mainstream and radical expressions of the various world religions, but I would like to point out that there is a difference between denouncing bigotry and hatred and celebrating the death of another human being.
That is all.
public views on homosexuality and Jews has to do with
Islam, how it makes them "hypocrites" when I have yet
to see anyone on this board say they agree with any
statements made by a follower of Islam regarding the
same positions ... it seems you are surrounded by an
army of straw men, Rich.
And I don't put people on ignore just because they are
tiresome.
A very wise man once told me, "There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers"
And I asked them because I saw a group of people, celebrating the death of a man who they felt was intolerant, while in the past these same people defended an entire religion(against me) that is just as intolerant and in many ways very similar in their beliefs.
And yes, I was trying to get these folks to recognize the hypocrisy in these views and possibly change them in the future.
Is looking at this kind of logic annoying, dangerous or counter-productive??
Should this have just stayed a Grave Dancing thread ??
To echo Dan's point: these two things have fairly little to do with one another. That's precisely why no one is bothering to respond to such a silly and disingenuous query to begin with.
If an Islamic leader, in any country, came out and said, "9/11 was God's punishment for America's embrace of gays and feminists" I'm pretty sure people who be on, "fuck that shit" attitude too.
Of course, in Falwell's case, his 9/11 comments are merely the tip of the iceberg for why he's so loathed by many.
My computer must be on the fritz....please, for my benefit, C&P the post that stated the fact of how the evil Falwell and the Islamic doctrine differed in their tolerance of homosexuality.
You are a joke.
Facts:
Indonesia is the largest Muslim majority country in the world. Indoisia is tolorent of homosexuality.
Do you want me to go on?
Has there ever been a RIP thread for a radical Muslim on soulstrut?
Has there ever been a RIP thread for any (non-American musician) Muslim on soulstrut?
What are you whining about anyway?
It is a challenge in any religion to champion tolerance over zealotry. No religion is "better" or "worse" than the others at this.
I didn't hate Jerry Fallwell merely because he was a homophobe; if that's all you think it takes for me to develop such a bitter hatred for someone then you've got me pegged wrong.
Jerry Fallwell, unlike many reprehensible Imams and Priests elsewhere, had a direct line into our elected government and in my humble opinion stood for everything wrong with this country. When we live in a caliphate and a radical Muslim cleric is cleansing the land of fags and idolaters then I will take aim at that person.
Never mentioned the word Jew in any of my posts.
And why is pointing out that Falwell's intolerance is shared by another group/person so outrageous.
If I posted that Pat Robertson shared his views no one would blink an eye, but I mention that Islam shares it, a religion that has been pasionately defended here by many, and it's out of line.
Seems to me that you'd rather ignore this comparison than recognize it.
And to LW....do you SERIOUSLY think that Islam doesn't efect your life here in the U.S. when an entire foreign policy is built based on it's radical factions.??
That's a wrap, batches!
In fairness, this is neither here nor there.
If there was an (non-American musician) Muslim that had the influence on the Soulstrut community that, say, James Brown or Dilla (to name only a few RIP threads) did, best beleive there'd be an RIP thread on him/her.
You seem to suggest that the Strut doesn't care when Muslims die. The truth is the Strut doesn't care when most people die.
Yes. Exactly. Precisely. Thank you, good night, and drive safely.
OK. Now I see where you are coming from. You hate an entire religion and all it's followers.
It is all clear now.
Expect people to contine to disagree with bigotry.
WOW
Perhaps because Pat Robertson is but one individual--an individual whose public positions generally resemble those of Falwell--while Islam is a global faith, subscribed to by millions, and which has many, many different variations.
I don't think anyone's ignoring it--perhaps "ridiculing" is the term you seek?
I can name churches in the U.S. that accept and even celebrate homosexuality. Is there an Islamic equivilent??
So if it doesn't happen here, you're not interested.
Homosexuals ARE being killed by Islamic governments trying to cleanse their land of fags along with adulterers and even Christians.
But I guess you're right, when it starts happening here we can start recognizing and bitching about it, until then I'll shut the hell up and go cut my yard.
My wife thanks you.