i dont think what he even said was said out of racism. i think it was said to be a clever ironic remark...
it obviously backfired.
i dont know anything about don imus besides he's a shock radio jock.
but i do know alittle about howard stern. and howard stern does impressions of black stereotypes & what could be interpreted as racist commentaries on black issues all the time on his show. yet he'd never recieve this same kind of backlash because i guess it's expected of him...
my point is what he said is probably more to blame on the crappy black movies, characters and trite sterotypical charactures we're exposed to over and over again in america than it is to an actual hate of black women.
but again, i don't know much about Imus... maybe he has been doing this for years and finally got backed into a corner.
I think there is a 7 page Imus thread already. I think this thread is suppose to be about bad words in rap music or something.
I do agree with you that racist people do all kinds of racist things because they think it makes them look clever. Just look at the tennis shoe guy.
i was merely offering an explanation as to why he would he say what he said in context to the original idea of this thread.
is rap to blame? and if not than what caused him to say this?
i say yes, it's pretty hard to say it's not to blame without a distorted view. and following through with that not just rap... but pretty much all the stupid black movies and characters that get put out into mainstream consumption are at the very least a part of the blame...
i guess just saying "he's just a racist" is a good enough explanation for you?
but if you pay alittle more attention, you'd notice that even as little as the last 5-8 years or so, what is deemed racism has taken on a new form from what it was considered, say 40-50 years ago.
what is classified as racism of today is often a spoofing of these awful stereotypes and charactures whites are exposed to...
hence, pimps and hoe's parties or whatever else is drawing outrage this week...
but to their defence, i dont think these people are out attending neo-nazi rallies and burning crosses like people i would consider white racists.
i think if there was more dignified and popular black entertainment mediums, we'd see alot of the stupidity go away on both sides of the fence... (whites mocking blacks and blacks falling victim and perpuating these stupid stereotypes.)
but i really don't see that happening because both whites and blacks enjoy seeing and perpetuating these stereotypes too much...
This type of foolishness makes me embarassed to be a member of this forum.
i was merely offering an explanation as to why he would he say what he said in context to the original idea of this thread.
is rap to blame? and if not than what caused him to say this?
i say yes, it's pretty hard to say it's not to blame without a distorted view. and following through with that not just rap... but pretty much all the stupid black movies and characters that get put out into mainstream consumption are at the very least a part of the blame...
i guess just saying "he's just a racist" is a good enough explanation for you?
but if you pay alittle more attention, you'd notice that even as little as the last 5-8 years or so, what is deemed racism has taken on a new form from what it was considered, say 40-50 years ago.
what is classified as racism of today is often a spoofing of these awful stereotypes and charactures whites are exposed to...
hence, pimps and hoe's parties or whatever else is drawing outrage this week...
but to their defence, i dont think these people are out attending neo-nazi rallies and burning crosses like people i would consider white racists.
i think if there was more dignified and popular black entertainment mediums, we'd see alot of the stupidity go away on both sides of the fence... (whites mocking blacks and blacks falling victim and perpuating these stupid stereotypes.)
but i really don't see that happening because both whites and blacks enjoy seeing and perpetuating these stereotypes too much...
This type of foolishness makes me embarassed to be a member of this forum.
Is Rap to blame for your feelings? If not, what would make you say this?
i was merely offering an explanation as to why he would he say what he said in context to the original idea of this thread.
is rap to blame? and if not than what caused him to say this?
i say yes, it's pretty hard to say it's not to blame without a distorted view. and following through with that not just rap... but pretty much all the stupid black movies and characters that get put out into mainstream consumption are at the very least a part of the blame...
i guess just saying "he's just a racist" is a good enough explanation for you?
but if you pay alittle more attention, you'd notice that even as little as the last 5-8 years or so, what is deemed racism has taken on a new form from what it was considered, say 40-50 years ago.
what is classified as racism of today is often a spoofing of these awful stereotypes and charactures whites are exposed to...
hence, pimps and hoe's parties or whatever else is drawing outrage this week...
but to their defence, i dont think these people are out attending neo-nazi rallies and burning crosses like people i would consider white racists.
i think if there was more dignified and popular black entertainment mediums, we'd see alot of the stupidity go away on both sides of the fence... (whites mocking blacks and blacks falling victim and perpuating these stupid stereotypes.)
but i really don't see that happening because both whites and blacks enjoy seeing and perpetuating these stereotypes too much...
This type of foolishness makes me embarassed to be a member of this forum.
i was merely offering an explanation as to why he would he say what he said in context to the original idea of this thread.
is rap to blame? and if not than what caused him to say this?
i say yes, it's pretty hard to say it's not to blame without a distorted view. and following through with that not just rap... but pretty much all the stupid black movies and characters that get put out into mainstream consumption are at the very least a part of the blame...
i guess just saying "he's just a racist" is a good enough explanation for you?
but if you pay alittle more attention, you'd notice that even as little as the last 5-8 years or so, what is deemed racism has taken on a new form from what it was considered, say 40-50 years ago.
what is classified as racism of today is often a spoofing of these awful stereotypes and charactures whites are exposed to...
hence, pimps and hoe's parties or whatever else is drawing outrage this week...
but to their defence, i dont think these people are out attending neo-nazi rallies and burning crosses like people i would consider white racists.
i think if there was more dignified and popular black entertainment mediums, we'd see alot of the stupidity go away on both sides of the fence... (whites mocking blacks and blacks falling victim and perpuating these stupid stereotypes.)
but i really don't see that happening because both whites and blacks enjoy seeing and perpetuating these stereotypes too much...
Go study up. Then come back. Here are 2 clues, the racist you gotta worry about are not at Klan rallies. Two, you need to learn a lot about the last 40-50 years including the last 5-8.
i was merely offering an explanation as to why he would he say what he said in context to the original idea of this thread.
is rap to blame? and if not than what caused him to say this?
i say yes, it's pretty hard to say it's not to blame without a distorted view. and following through with that not just rap... but pretty much all the stupid black movies and characters that get put out into mainstream consumption are at the very least a part of the blame...
i guess just saying "he's just a racist" is a good enough explanation for you?
but if you pay alittle more attention, you'd notice that even as little as the last 5-8 years or so, what is deemed racism has taken on a new form from what it was considered, say 40-50 years ago.
what is classified as racism of today is often a spoofing of these awful stereotypes and charactures whites are exposed to...
hence, pimps and hoe's parties or whatever else is drawing outrage this week...
but to their defence, i dont think these people are out attending neo-nazi rallies and burning crosses like people i would consider white racists.
i think if there was more dignified and popular black entertainment mediums, we'd see alot of the stupidity go away on both sides of the fence... (whites mocking blacks and blacks falling victim and perpuating these stupid stereotypes.)
but i really don't see that happening because both whites and blacks enjoy seeing and perpetuating these stereotypes too much...
This type of foolishness makes me embarassed to be a member of this forum.
can ya'll really not see dude's underlying point?
Whatever he thinks his "point" is doesn't deserve to be dignified with that word.
If Imus worked for me, I would have fired him. I wouldn't have waited to hear what the advertisers wanted to do, nor would I have taken a poll among my non-white board members to see how they felt about his remarks. And you know what else, I would have ALSO fired the other guy on the show, his producer. Because at least in the clip I saw, the producer started it. They were talking about the women's basketball teams, how tough Rutgers was, how they have tattoos, and then it went like this:
PRODUCER: Those are some hardcore ho's. IMUS: They are some nappy headed ho's.
This is a college women's basketball team, consisting of mostly black players. They are not ho's. BUT women get persistently oversexualized in this culture (and on this forum by a bunch of insecure dudes with 8th grade mentalities) so that they cannot enter the public eye without someone wanting to "blap" or "tap." Both the producer's and Imus' comments reflect that an unacceptable level of sexism and misogyny is permissible in our culture; Imus fell because he hit a bullseye with both racism AND sexism. If he had just repeated the ho remark, he would not be fired.
Now as for fakeass, he does have a point, and it probably is worth acknowledging (that is, if you guys didn't have so much invested in belitting everyone). Imus is (or was) a participant-observer of American culture, and that culture produces objects. Among the objects it produces are depictions of black men and women in grossly caricatured types: the pimp; the buck; the mammy; the jezebel; the "nappy headed ho." Take a look at the films that Hollywood targets as "black films" and you will see all of these archetypal and racist caricatures in abundance. In this context, Imus thought his remark would be acceptable, and but for the minority presence on corporate boards, he probably would have been right. (Making this entire debacle an argument in favor of both affirmative action and the value of diversity.)
Where fakeass falls off, is by misnaming the problem. The problem with these depictions is not necessarily the films themselves, but the racist edifice that produces them ad nauseum. To borrow from one much brighter than I, it is that edifice that needs restructuring.
Now for rap music, which I took to be the subject of this thread. Did the use of ho's or nappy-headed (or both) in rap music cause Don Imus to make this remark? Hell no. Don Imus could not tell you the lyrics to one rap song. He probably doesn't even know the chorus to walk this way, and that's an AEROSMITH song. But did the prevalence and acceptability of the term ho's in the cultural objects that America produces (including films, rap music, and television) cause Don Imus to make this remark? Probably.
If fewer rappers talk about ho's, that would not be a bad thing. As for Snoop, whose name gets mentioned often, he's a horny dogg who has a great flow and occasionally drops a killer, timeless classic onto tape. To me, "Beautiful" is one such classic (currently being sullied by advertising Heineken Light in my media market). "Drop it like its hot" is not.
As for calling a ho a ho, Bobo is incorrect. It is permissible to call a ho a ho. But it takes one to know one.
Anyone know the Winnie the Pooh "ho song"? The one he sings when he's feeling rather ho-ish?
This is a message board. Allusions are lost. Plus, I thought that you were talking shit until at least your third message on the subject. I know I'm not alone.
When you start talking about a racist culture that produces racist depictions in the context of explaining Don Imus, you wind up an Imus apologist with the quickness.
If Imus worked for me, I would have fired him. I wouldn't have waited to hear what the advertisers wanted to do, nor would I have taken a poll among my non-white board members to see how they felt about his remarks. And you know what else, I would have ALSO fired the other guy on the show, his producer. Because at least in the clip I saw, the producer started it. They were talking about the women's basketball teams, how tough Rutgers was, how they have tattoos, and then it went like this:
PRODUCER: Those are some hardcore ho's. IMUS: They are some nappy headed ho's.
This is a college women's basketball team, consisting of mostly black players. They are not ho's. BUT women get persistently oversexualized in this culture (and on this forum by a bunch of insecure dudes with 8th grade mentalities) so that they cannot enter the public eye without someone wanting to "blap" or "tap." Both the producer's and Imus' comments reflect that an unacceptable level of sexism and misogyny is permissible in our culture; Imus fell because he hit a bullseye with both racism AND sexism. If he had just repeated the ho remark, he would not be fired.
Now as for fakeass, he does have a point, and it probably is worth acknowledging (that is, if you guys didn't have so much invested in belitting everyone). Imus is (or was) a participant-observer of American culture, and that culture produces objects. Among the objects it produces are depictions of black men and women in grossly caricatured types: the pimp; the buck; the mammy; the jezebel; the "nappy headed ho." Take a look at the films that Hollywood targets as "black films" and you will see all of these archetypal and racist caricatures in abundance. In this context, Imus thought his remark would be acceptable, and but for the minority presence on corporate boards, he probably would have been right. (Making this entire debacle an argument in favor of both affirmative action and the value of diversity.)
Where fakeass falls off, is by misnaming the problem. The problem with these depictions is not necessarily the films themselves, but the racist edifice that produces them ad nauseum. To borrow from one much brighter than I, it is that edifice that needs restructuring.
Now for rap music, which I took to be the subject of this thread. Did the use of ho's or nappy-headed (or both) in rap music cause Don Imus to make this remark? Hell no. Don Imus could not tell you the lyrics to one rap song. He probably doesn't even know the chorus to walk this way, and that's an AEROSMITH song. But did the prevalence and acceptability of the term ho's in the cultural objects that America produces (including films, rap music, and television) cause Don Imus to make this remark? Probably.
If fewer rappers talk about ho's, that would not be a bad thing. As for Snoop, whose name gets mentioned often, he's a horny dogg who has a great flow and occasionally drops a killer, timeless classic onto tape. To me, "Beautiful" is one such classic (currently being sullied by advertising Heineken Light in my media market). "Drop it like its hot" is not.
As for calling a ho a ho, Bobo is incorrect. It is permissible to call a ho a ho. But it takes one to know one.
Anyone know the Winnie the Pooh "ho song"? The one he sings when he's feeling rather ho-ish?
Anyone? JRoot
Very well said. Thank you.
You say that the acceptability of the term ho in American culture probably caused Imus to make the remark. I don't buy that. Imus uses words for a living. He knows the difference between fictional carictures and a womens basketball team. He knows the difference between rap lyrics, and his show. He said it perciesley because he knew it was wrong, not because he thought it was ok. That is his stock in trade.
I said this in the Imus thread but I will repeat it; Young gifted and Black teenage girls are very different than the politicians and entertainers that he usually insults. It was his target that made his comments so wrong.
As I said in the start of this thread, to the best of my knowledge, these are not the people refered to as hos in rap songs.
If Imus worked for me, I would have fired him. I wouldn't have waited to hear what the advertisers wanted to do, nor would I have taken a poll among my non-white board members to see how they felt about his remarks. And you know what else, I would have ALSO fired the other guy on the show, his producer. Because at least in the clip I saw, the producer started it. They were talking about the women's basketball teams, how tough Rutgers was, how they have tattoos, and then it went like this:
PRODUCER: Those are some hardcore ho's. IMUS: They are some nappy headed ho's.
This is a college women's basketball team, consisting of mostly black players. They are not ho's. BUT women get persistently oversexualized in this culture (and on this forum by a bunch of insecure dudes with 8th grade mentalities) so that they cannot enter the public eye without someone wanting to "blap" or "tap." Both the producer's and Imus' comments reflect that an unacceptable level of sexism and misogyny is permissible in our culture; Imus fell because he hit a bullseye with both racism AND sexism. If he had just repeated the ho remark, he would not be fired.
Now as for fakeass, he does have a point, and it probably is worth acknowledging (that is, if you guys didn't have so much invested in belitting everyone). Imus is (or was) a participant-observer of American culture, and that culture produces objects. Among the objects it produces are depictions of black men and women in grossly caricatured types: the pimp; the buck; the mammy; the jezebel; the "nappy headed ho." Take a look at the films that Hollywood targets as "black films" and you will see all of these archetypal and racist caricatures in abundance. In this context, Imus thought his remark would be acceptable, and but for the minority presence on corporate boards, he probably would have been right. (Making this entire debacle an argument in favor of both affirmative action and the value of diversity.)
Where fakeass falls off, is by misnaming the problem. The problem with these depictions is not necessarily the films themselves, but the racist edifice that produces them ad nauseum. To borrow from one much brighter than I, it is that edifice that needs restructuring.
Now for rap music, which I took to be the subject of this thread. Did the use of ho's or nappy-headed (or both) in rap music cause Don Imus to make this remark? Hell no. Don Imus could not tell you the lyrics to one rap song. He probably doesn't even know the chorus to walk this way, and that's an AEROSMITH song. But did the prevalence and acceptability of the term ho's in the cultural objects that America produces (including films, rap music, and television) cause Don Imus to make this remark? Probably.
If fewer rappers talk about ho's, that would not be a bad thing. As for Snoop, whose name gets mentioned often, he's a horny dogg who has a great flow and occasionally drops a killer, timeless classic onto tape. To me, "Beautiful" is one such classic (currently being sullied by advertising Heineken Light in my media market). "Drop it like its hot" is not.
As for calling a ho a ho, Bobo is incorrect. It is permissible to call a ho a ho. But it takes one to know one.
Now everybody else PLEASE SHUT THE FUCK OUTTA HERE.
Anyone know the Winnie the Pooh "ho song"? The one he sings when he's feeling rather ho-ish?
If Imus worked for me, I would have fired him. I wouldn't have waited to hear what the advertisers wanted to do, nor would I have taken a poll among my non-white board members to see how they felt about his remarks. And you know what else, I would have ALSO fired the other guy on the show, his producer. Because at least in the clip I saw, the producer started it. They were talking about the women's basketball teams, how tough Rutgers was, how they have tattoos, and then it went like this:
PRODUCER: Those are some hardcore ho's. IMUS: They are some nappy headed ho's.
This is a college women's basketball team, consisting of mostly black players. They are not ho's. BUT women get persistently oversexualized in this culture (and on this forum by a bunch of insecure dudes with 8th grade mentalities) so that they cannot enter the public eye without someone wanting to "blap" or "tap." Both the producer's and Imus' comments reflect that an unacceptable level of sexism and misogyny is permissible in our culture; Imus fell because he hit a bullseye with both racism AND sexism. If he had just repeated the ho remark, he would not be fired.
Now as for fakeass, he does have a point, and it probably is worth acknowledging (that is, if you guys didn't have so much invested in belitting everyone). Imus is (or was) a participant-observer of American culture, and that culture produces objects. Among the objects it produces are depictions of black men and women in grossly caricatured types: the pimp; the buck; the mammy; the jezebel; the "nappy headed ho." Take a look at the films that Hollywood targets as "black films" and you will see all of these archetypal and racist caricatures in abundance. In this context, Imus thought his remark would be acceptable, and but for the minority presence on corporate boards, he probably would have been right. (Making this entire debacle an argument in favor of both affirmative action and the value of diversity.)
Where fakeass falls off, is by misnaming the problem. The problem with these depictions is not necessarily the films themselves, but the racist edifice that produces them ad nauseum. To borrow from one much brighter than I, it is that edifice that needs restructuring.
Now for rap music, which I took to be the subject of this thread. Did the use of ho's or nappy-headed (or both) in rap music cause Don Imus to make this remark? Hell no. Don Imus could not tell you the lyrics to one rap song. He probably doesn't even know the chorus to walk this way, and that's an AEROSMITH song. But did the prevalence and acceptability of the term ho's in the cultural objects that America produces (including films, rap music, and television) cause Don Imus to make this remark? Probably.
If fewer rappers talk about ho's, that would not be a bad thing. As for Snoop, whose name gets mentioned often, he's a horny dogg who has a great flow and occasionally drops a killer, timeless classic onto tape. To me, "Beautiful" is one such classic (currently being sullied by advertising Heineken Light in my media market). "Drop it like its hot" is not.
As for calling a ho a ho, Bobo is incorrect. It is permissible to call a ho a ho. But it takes one to know one.
Anyone know the Winnie the Pooh "ho song"? The one he sings when he's feeling rather ho-ish?
Anyone? JRoot
Very well said.
I would like to point out a few things though...
I understand Fakeass' overall point, and there's no denying there's an abundance of negative stereotypes, but dudes way of explaining it is bullshit IMO.
Do I really need to point it out?
what i said was black culture (the way its represented through white entainment and media outlets) is to blame for Imu's overall blahzay blah attitude towards the remark.
my point is what he said is probably more to blame on the crappy black movies, characters and trite sterotypical charactures we're exposed to over and over again in america than it is to an actual hate of black women.
i dont think what he even said was said out of racism. i think it was said to be a clever ironic remark...
Next week Oprah's having Russell Simmons on to talk about all this and his new book. Should be pretty interesting. Common was in the house but I missed him. One (black) exec from CBS tried to highlight that rap is not monolithically misogynist, a point that seems lost in this discussion.
I personally think that rap has had a tremendous cultural impact both positive and negative in the last 10-20 years. I think it has provided common ground for lots of young people in this country. Youths today mingle much more easily across racial lines than they did 30 years ago and rap is in part one of the reasons. In terms of economics, rap appears to have had a positive effect within the black community. This generation of artists are much more business savvy and seem to be bringing home more of the cheddar they earn. I have high hopes that this will translate into long-term economic growth in the community. Much of the messages and marketing of rap are lamentable and have had a negative impact. Rap has validated machismo, insensitivity and selfishness, which serves no one well. Rap is not the only popular form that is responsible for this phenomenon but it is the dominant force today. If you look at the superstars of the early 70s Curtis, Marvin, Stevie, Al Green, Aretha etc and compare them with today's legends, the contrast in image/persona is striking, almost night and day.
Now as for fakeass, he does have a point, and it probably is worth acknowledging (that is, if you guys didn't have so much invested in belitting everyone). Imus is (or was) a participant-observer of American culture, and that culture produces objects. Among the objects it produces are depictions of black men and women in grossly caricatured types: the pimp; the buck; the mammy; the jezebel; the "nappy headed ho." Take a look at the films that Hollywood targets as "black films" and you will see all of these archetypal and racist caricatures in abundance. In this context, Imus thought his remark would be acceptable, and but for the minority presence on corporate boards, he probably would have been right. (Making this entire debacle an argument in favor of both affirmative action and the value of diversity.)
Where fakeass falls off, is by misnaming the problem. The problem with these depictions is not necessarily the films themselves, but the racist edifice that produces them ad nauseum. To borrow from one much brighter than I, it is that edifice that needs restructuring.
Now for rap music, which I took to be the subject of this thread. Did the use of ho's or nappy-headed (or both) in rap music cause Don Imus to make this remark? Hell no. Don Imus could not tell you the lyrics to one rap song. He probably doesn't even know the chorus to walk this way, and that's an AEROSMITH song. But did the prevalence and acceptability of the term ho's in the cultural objects that America produces (including films, rap music, and television) cause Don Imus to make this remark? Probably.
No, J, that's your point. It's eloquently put, and I respect that you have something to say, but you shouldn't be acting as an apologist for this dude. It doesn't resemble any "point" that I saw fakeass making. Revisit his post with me as I try to identify them:
is rap to blame? and if not than what caused him to say this?
i say yes, it's pretty hard to say it's not to blame without a distorted view. and following through with that not just rap... but pretty much all the stupid black movies and characters that get put out into mainstream consumption are at the very least a part of the blame...
Rap music is to blame. Also some movies.
i guess just saying "he's just a racist" is a good enough explanation for you?
Calling a racist bastard a racist bastard is not sufficient. Gotta find an excuse for his behavior.
but if you pay alittle more attention, you'd notice that even as little as the last 5-8 years or so, what is deemed racism has taken on a new form from what it was considered, say 40-50 years ago.
A greater sensitivity to the subtleties of racism--a shifitng definition of "what is deemed racism"--is apparently a bad thing.
what is classified as racism of today is often a spoofing of these awful stereotypes and charactures whites are exposed to...
hence, pimps and hoe's parties or whatever else is drawing outrage this week...
It's not minstrelsy at all! It's a clever commentary on racism of days past!
but to their defence, i dont think these people are out attending neo-nazi rallies and burning crosses like people i would consider white racists.
Anything short of burning crosses on Black families' lawns = not racism. What we've seen in recent years is simply an unfortunate expansion of the term's definition to embrace such benignities as blackface parties.
i think if there was more dignified and popular black entertainment mediums, we'd see alot of the stupidity go away on both sides of the fence... (whites mocking blacks and blacks falling victim and perpuating these stupid stereotypes.)
but i really don't see that happening because both whites and blacks enjoy seeing and perpetuating these stereotypes too much...
It's popular culture that has bedeviled these simple-minded but essentially good-hearted white people! It's not merely a continuation of centuries of racism at all! And Black people--lacking any ability to think for themselves--are being similarly victimized by popular culture! Viewing the latest Wayans brothers comedic creation as a source of role models!
Now, here's where I think your argument goes wrong:
Take a look at the films that Hollywood targets as "black films" and you will see all of these archetypal and racist caricatures in abundance. In this context, Imus thought his remark would be acceptable, and but for the minority presence on corporate boards, he probably would have been right.
Why do you think this is the case? You and I exist wthin the same culture as Imus--we have the same "context"--yet neither one of us thinks it's acceptable to refer to Black women as "nappy-headed hoes". Or--to pick someone closer to Imus's demographic--why doesn't my father find that behavior acceptable? why doesn't Laserwolf? Imus is a sophisticated businessman who also knows a thing or two about popular culture. He is at least as well equipped as the four people I just named to discern that his remarks would be completely unacceptable. But he differs from the four of us in being a virulent racist.
And that's why I have a problem with this discussion taking place now. If you think there's been a general coarsening in American popular culture in recent decades, that's fine. But no matter how well-made your point is, coming in this context, it has the whiff of an excuse... and there is no excuse. I will even give you that rap/popular culture shaped Imus's vocabulary. That it was the source of the word "ho". But you cannot ascribe the underlying racist contempt to rap/movies. Without their influence, Imus would still be a vicious racist, he just would have used words like "ni**er" and "whore"
There is no more personel accountability.....just excuses.
but there are reasons why these things go down, acknowledging them doesn't mean you're an apologist.
imus is racist for a reason (meaning he most likely didn't up and decide to be racist, it most likely originated in his mindset somewhere down the line) and i think that fakeass was speaking on that (however clumsily), and not necessarily excusing his remarks.
that said, imus is a grown man, and could easily see how f'ed up his remarks generally are.. IF he was to see them as wrong, and by just scanning that wiki entry, it's plain to see that he sees no wrong in spouting racist remarks.
There is no more personel accountability.....just excuses.
but there are reasons why these things go down, acknowledging them doesn't mean you're an apologist.
What you guys are doing is not "acknowledging the reasons why these things go down"--it's aggressively attempting to pin responsibility where it doesn't belong.
imus is racist for a reason (meaning he most likely didn't up and decide to be racist, it most likely originated in his mindset somewhere down the line)
Yes, there is a reason. His parents were racists, his extended family probably includes plenty of racists. And he probably socializes with racists on a regular basis.
That makes a lot more sense than you dudes' convoluted attempts to pin the tail on rap music and movies.
Comments
I think there is a 7 page Imus thread already. I think this thread is suppose to be about bad words in rap music or something.
I do agree with you that racist people do all kinds of racist things because they think it makes them look clever. Just look at the tennis shoe guy.
This type of foolishness makes me embarassed to be a member of this forum.
Is Rap to blame for your feelings?
If not, what would make you say this?
can ya'll really not see dude's underlying point?
"the world isn't happy and full of fucking roses"...thats what was said. And that's what i will remember tomorrow.
the world isn't happy and full of fucking roses[/b]
Go study up. Then come back. Here are 2 clues, the racist you gotta worry about are not at Klan rallies. Two, you need to learn a lot about the last 40-50 years including the last 5-8.
Whatever he thinks his "point" is doesn't deserve to be dignified with that word.
PRODUCER: Those are some hardcore ho's.
IMUS: They are some nappy headed ho's.
This is a college women's basketball team, consisting of mostly black players. They are not ho's. BUT women get persistently oversexualized in this culture (and on this forum by a bunch of insecure dudes with 8th grade mentalities) so that they cannot enter the public eye without someone wanting to "blap" or "tap." Both the producer's and Imus' comments reflect that an unacceptable level of sexism and misogyny is permissible in our culture; Imus fell because he hit a bullseye with both racism AND sexism. If he had just repeated the ho remark, he would not be fired.
Now as for fakeass, he does have a point, and it probably is worth acknowledging (that is, if you guys didn't have so much invested in belitting everyone). Imus is (or was) a participant-observer of American culture, and that culture produces objects. Among the objects it produces are depictions of black men and women in grossly caricatured types: the pimp; the buck; the mammy; the jezebel; the "nappy headed ho." Take a look at the films that Hollywood targets as "black films" and you will see all of these archetypal and racist caricatures in abundance. In this context, Imus thought his remark would be acceptable, and but for the minority presence on corporate boards, he probably would have been right. (Making this entire debacle an argument in favor of both affirmative action and the value of diversity.)
Where fakeass falls off, is by misnaming the problem. The problem with these depictions is not necessarily the films themselves, but the racist edifice that produces them ad nauseum. To borrow from one much brighter than I, it is that edifice that needs restructuring.
Now for rap music, which I took to be the subject of this thread. Did the use of ho's or nappy-headed (or both) in rap music cause Don Imus to make this remark? Hell no. Don Imus could not tell you the lyrics to one rap song. He probably doesn't even know the chorus to walk this way, and that's an AEROSMITH song. But did the prevalence and acceptability of the term ho's in the cultural objects that America produces (including films, rap music, and television) cause Don Imus to make this remark? Probably.
If fewer rappers talk about ho's, that would not be a bad thing. As for Snoop, whose name gets mentioned often, he's a horny dogg who has a great flow and occasionally drops a killer, timeless classic onto tape. To me, "Beautiful" is one such classic (currently being sullied by advertising Heineken Light in my media market). "Drop it like its hot" is not.
As for calling a ho a ho, Bobo is incorrect. It is permissible to call a ho a ho. But it takes one to know one.
Anyone know the Winnie the Pooh "ho song"? The one he sings when he's feeling rather ho-ish?
Anyone?
JRoot
This is a message board. Allusions are lost. Plus, I thought that you were talking shit until at least your third message on the subject. I know I'm not alone.
When you start talking about a racist culture that produces racist depictions in the context of explaining Don Imus, you wind up an Imus apologist with the quickness.
No, but they do go to sleep. night night boys.
Very well said. Thank you.
You say that the acceptability of the term ho in American culture probably caused Imus to make the remark. I don't buy that. Imus uses words for a living. He knows the difference between fictional carictures and a womens basketball team. He knows the difference between rap lyrics, and his show. He said it perciesley because he knew it was wrong, not because he thought it was ok. That is his stock in trade.
I said this in the Imus thread but I will repeat it; Young gifted and Black teenage girls are very different than the politicians and entertainers that he usually insults. It was his target that made his comments so wrong.
As I said in the start of this thread, to the best of my knowledge, these are not the people refered to as hos in rap songs.
Now everybody else PLEASE SHUT THE FUCK OUTTA HERE.
Don't test my Disney gangster.
You're talking about taking the word back, I'm guessing -- only a ho can call another ho a ho?
Very well said.
I would like to point out a few things though...
I understand Fakeass' overall point, and there's no denying there's an abundance of negative stereotypes, but dudes way of explaining it is bullshit IMO.
Do I really need to point it out?
A simple wikipedia search could have answered that question.
etc. etc.
Let Imus take accountability for his own actions and stop making what I consider to be excuses for him.
I personally think that rap has had a tremendous cultural impact both positive and negative in the last 10-20 years. I think it has provided common ground for lots of young people in this country. Youths today mingle much more easily across racial lines than they did 30 years ago and rap is in part one of the reasons. In terms of economics, rap appears to have had a positive effect within the black community. This generation of artists are much more business savvy and seem to be bringing home more of the cheddar they earn. I have high hopes that this will translate into long-term economic growth in the community. Much of the messages and marketing of rap are lamentable and have had a negative impact. Rap has validated machismo, insensitivity and selfishness, which serves no one well. Rap is not the only popular form that is responsible for this phenomenon but it is the dominant force today. If you look at the superstars of the early 70s Curtis, Marvin, Stevie, Al Green, Aretha etc and compare them with today's legends, the contrast in image/persona is striking, almost night and day.
No, J, that's your point. It's eloquently put, and I respect that you have something to say, but you shouldn't be acting as an apologist for this dude. It doesn't resemble any "point" that I saw fakeass making. Revisit his post with me as I try to identify them:
Rap music is to blame. Also some movies.
Calling a racist bastard a racist bastard is not sufficient. Gotta find an excuse for his behavior.
A greater sensitivity to the subtleties of racism--a shifitng definition of "what is deemed racism"--is apparently a bad thing.
It's not minstrelsy at all! It's a clever commentary on racism of days past!
Anything short of burning crosses on Black families' lawns = not racism. What we've seen in recent years is simply an unfortunate expansion of the term's definition to embrace such benignities as blackface parties.
It's popular culture that has bedeviled these simple-minded but essentially good-hearted white people! It's not merely a continuation of centuries of racism at all! And Black people--lacking any ability to think for themselves--are being similarly victimized by popular culture! Viewing the latest Wayans brothers comedic creation as a source of role models!
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Now, here's where I think your argument goes wrong:
Why do you think this is the case? You and I exist wthin the same culture as Imus--we have the same "context"--yet neither one of us thinks it's acceptable to refer to Black women as "nappy-headed hoes". Or--to pick someone closer to Imus's demographic--why doesn't my father find that behavior acceptable? why doesn't Laserwolf? Imus is a sophisticated businessman who also knows a thing or two about popular culture. He is at least as well equipped as the four people I just named to discern that his remarks would be completely unacceptable. But he differs from the four of us in being a virulent racist.
And that's why I have a problem with this discussion taking place now. If you think there's been a general coarsening in American popular culture in recent decades, that's fine. But no matter how well-made your point is, coming in this context, it has the whiff of an excuse... and there is no excuse. I will even give you that rap/popular culture shaped Imus's vocabulary. That it was the source of the word "ho". But you cannot ascribe the underlying racist contempt to rap/movies. Without their influence, Imus would still be a vicious racist, he just would have used words like "ni**er" and "whore"
why ?
This is what our society has become....apologists for everything.
Dude goes on a killing spree and his bullshit defense is he was abused as a child/from a broken family/Drugs/etc.
Movie star calls someone a faggot/jew/etc. and it must be the drugs/alcohol....get them to rehab stat.
Asshole makes a racist remark on the public airwaves and people try to come up with reasons/excsues.
Why is that so hard to understand.
There is no more personel accountability.....just excuses.
False
but there are reasons why these things go down, acknowledging them doesn't mean you're an apologist.
imus is racist for a reason (meaning he most likely didn't up and decide to be racist, it most likely originated in his mindset somewhere down the line) and i think that fakeass was speaking on that (however clumsily), and not necessarily excusing his remarks.
that said, imus is a grown man, and could easily see how f'ed up his remarks generally are.. IF he was to see them as wrong, and by just scanning that wiki entry, it's plain to see that he sees no wrong in spouting racist remarks.
So you're for censorship?
Plaese be serious
What you guys are doing is not "acknowledging the reasons why these things go down"--it's aggressively attempting to pin responsibility where it doesn't belong.
Yes, there is a reason. His parents were racists, his extended family probably includes plenty of racists. And he probably socializes with racists on a regular basis.
That makes a lot more sense than you dudes' convoluted attempts to pin the tail on rap music and movies.
Do you even know what that word means?
There is nothing wrong with a private entity determining that it will no longer aid and abet a virulent racist in spreading his message.