The only reason I brought it up is because the excuse often used by why "underground" hip hop is bad is because thats not what REAL LIVE BLACK PEOPLE are listening to on THA STREETZ.
But anyways, I should back off now. I've seen this conversation before, and I can't imagine it going any differently this time around.
To me, it's always been about striking a balance. Problem is, there hasn't been anything close to one for a very looooooooooong time now.
exactly.
This is the truth. The balance is not there anymore.
Oh, jeezus, please not that hackneyed "I'm not a hater--I'm just disappointed by the lack of balance" argument.
Hip-hop is currently more aesthetically diverse--overall, and in terms of what makes it onto the radio--than it has been at any previous point in its history.
What you dudes whining about the "lack of balance" are actually arguing for is in fact an imbalance: you want to see artists that you like represented in a way that is grossly out of proportion to the interest that the listening public has or will ever have in them.
Little Brother's problem is not lack of exposure--their problem is that they make boring music that nobody wants to hear. Doom's problem is not lack of exposure--his problem is that he makes music that is really only attractive to a very specialized audience. Immortal Technique's problem is not that the powers-that-be are threatened by his content--it's that he can't rap competently.
Obviously you would just rather forget a whole era of rap music on the radio and TV? I mean you always complain about revisionist history in rap music, but in your eyes anything made before what 98, 99, or 2000 is garbage? And the argument I was trying make before passing out was simply that the balance was always there with bigger artists as well as smaller artists. Artists that sold gold (since platinum was pretty hard if not impossible to attain then), would get gully as hell but still flip a single on some more socially conscious ideas.
No one had brought up Little Brother in this thread as a shining example. And No one said that indie college radio stations are doing it right. They can be just as bad as the Viacoms, Clear Channels, and Inifity's but on the independent tip. There is no ability for people to choose what they want to hear on the larger radio stations anymore. Its not set up like that. Radio is a corporate entity made for making money and that's it. The labels are all run by MBA's who are concerned with the bottom line and not concerned about artist development. If you think the diversity is out there, you're kidding yourself. I talk to these cats at Virgin, TVT all the time and they are just trying to make the money before it all falls out. If the Whisper Song hits, then everyone is going to mimick it as much as possible until its done (ie. David Banner - PLay, and the new Busta Rhymes)... 50Cent has the most basic formula out there and he is just riding it out until it doesn't work anymore (ie. release your CD 2 times and broaden your product base - book/movie).
I have no idea what you're trying to say with any of this.
I'd much rather hear Fatlip than another 8th-rate gangsta rapper over lazy drum programming and keys
No, I don't know what you mean; I would personally rather hear an 8th-rate gangsta rapper over an 8th-rate depressed self-deprecating terd.
To each his own. To me, it really doesn't matter WHAT someone raps about, as long as they do it with some sort of charisma and originality, which most emcees in any sub-genre of hiphop seem to be lacking these days.
To me, Fatlip was one quarter of a rap group that pretty much embodies everything that I loathe about certain aspects of early nineties rap and would prefer to forget.
I'd be interested to hear some detail about these 'aspects' that you loathe.
Whether or not anyone here (in this thread, on this board, and/or in our time) actually used the phrase "the streets/z," only fools and horses would believe that this argument boils down to anything more than people who consider themselves fans of "street" rap versus people who consider themselves fans of, um, "not-quite-as-'street'" rap.
Not really.
I'd say it boils down to a disagreement between people who recognize that radio is in the business of selling ad space and so does its best to triangulate on popular taste in order to maximize listenership, and who are not overly concerned with what the radio plays, yet also not mad at it, versus those who think it's the obligation of radio to subject the listening public to niche artists.
The only reason I brought it up is because the excuse often used by why "underground" hip hop is bad is because thats not what REAL LIVE BLACK PEOPLE are listening to on THA STREETZ.
I think you may be confusing two separate arguments there.
Whether or not anyone here (in this thread, on this board, and/or in our time) actually used the phrase "the streets/z," only fools and horses would believe that this argument boils down to anything more than people who consider themselves fans of "street" rap versus people who consider themselves fans of, um, "not-quite-as-'street'" rap.
Not really.
I'd say it boils down to a disagreement between people who recognize that radio is in the business of selling ad space and so does its best to triangulate on popular taste in order to maximize listenership, and who are not overly concerned with what the radio plays, yet also not mad at it, versus those who think it's the obligation of radio to subject the listening public to niche artists.
No its actually past the point of triangulating on the commercial side. they were doing that in the late 80s and early 90s looking for formulas. They have the formulas now, its just them dictating at this point.
ie. BET is not open to any group putting their videos on the station, it has to fit a certain mold.
For someone who is endlessly going on about how they don't even like hip hop anyway, you seem to assume a lot about the music.
slow your roll man.. i never said i hate hip hop.. i grew up with that shit ... from cardboard and shell toes in elementary school, though to public enemy, ice t in junior high up through to jungle bros, de la, nwa in high school...
hell marley marl is the only reason i ever bought a sampler..
As for the argument that the only topic that indy/underground hip hop talks about is moaning about keeping it real or whingeing about mainstream stuff.
i didn't mean the only topic .. i might even be going more off interviews than actual records here... but i can't think of any underground rap records i've heard in the last 5 - 6 years be it from rhymesayers, edan, kool keith, quannum, def jux, lil brother, madlib that didnt have at least one track on it addressing either the state of industry, the radio, popular mcs, the gangsta lifestyle, thugs etc etc.
its not the only topic for sure but its definatly a touch stone.
And for balance sake I've got one of your records & am not a hip hop snob, so don't even try & pull that card.
that's cool man .. im not saying your a snob or anything.. but i find it intersting that you didnt even comment on the second half of my argument which is that underground hip hop production is a step or two behind mainstream production.
even just on the page you asked me to check, of the songs i could get to play 4 out of five were sample based.. featured minor key mellow guitar loops.. the first two even have pitched up / slowed down soul vocal samples... the same old crate diggery with some token gestures to mainstream styles (pitched soul vocals).
im sorry but i hear shit from yin yang, 3 six , banner, neptunes makes my ears perk up.. the joints may be dispossable pop but the sounds are unique, interesting and often very surprising.
Laffy Taffy hit me harder than any madlib track i've heard in years.
sample based production had its day, there's no arguing that.. i can pop on done by the forces of nature and thoroughly enjoy that shit, i can also bump just ice and have mantronix melt my brain. I have a greater respect for the mantronix side of the tracks though... im really just not jazzed about loops or samples i'd rather hear an 808 rattle over an analogue synth bass with triton horns.
Whether or not anyone here (in this thread, on this board, and/or in our time) actually used the phrase "the streets/z," only fools and horses would believe that this argument boils down to anything more than people who consider themselves fans of "street" rap versus people who consider themselves fans of, um, "not-quite-as-'street'" rap.
Not really.
I'd say it boils down to a disagreement between people who recognize that radio is in the business of selling ad space and so does its best to triangulate on popular taste in order to maximize listenership, and who are not overly concerned with what the radio plays, yet also not mad at it, versus those who think it's the obligation of radio to subject the listening public to niche artists.
No its actually past the point of triangulating on the commercial side. they were doing that in the late 80s and early 90s looking for formulas. They have the formulas now, its just them dictating at this point.
ie. BET is not open to any group putting their videos on the station, it has to fit a certain mold.
Dude, again, yes the radio playlists may be clogged with "Wait" knock-offs at the moment, but you seem to be forgetting that the meme for all of that had to come from somewhere--the original "Wait" was embraced by radio, was a huge hit and was nonetheless totally original.
I think you're being unrealistic in both your expectations of the amount of shockingly original content that radio should embrace, and in your recollection of the amount that it did embrace ten or fifteen years ago.
They have the formulas now, its just them dictating at this point.
And outside of the usual "I like this rap", "well, I like this real rap", that is the topic at hand. Chicken or the egg. Oliver had it right when he said the two overlap. And I honestly can't see some of your arguments that things are balanced. What, because you get the same shit kicked from different regions? That, to me, does not equate to balance.
Whether or not anyone here (in this thread, on this board, and/or in our time) actually used the phrase "the streets/z," only fools and horses would believe that this argument boils down to anything more than people who consider themselves fans of "street" rap versus people who consider themselves fans of, um, "not-quite-as-'street'" rap.
Not really.
I'd say it boils down to a disagreement between people who recognize that radio is in the business of selling ad space and so does its best to triangulate on popular taste in order to maximize listenership, and who are not overly concerned with what the radio plays, yet also not mad at it, versus those who think it's the obligation of radio to subject the listening public to niche artists.
No its actually past the point of triangulating on the commercial side. they were doing that in the late 80s and early 90s looking for formulas. They have the formulas now, its just them dictating at this point.
ie. BET is not open to any group putting their videos on the station, it has to fit a certain mold.
Dude, again, yes the radio playlists may be clogged with "Wait" knock-offs at the moment, but you seem to be forgetting that the meme for all of that had to come from somewhere--the original "Wait" was embraced by radio, was a huge hit and was nonetheless totally original.
I think you're being unrealistic in both your expectations of the amount of shockingly original content that radio should embrace, and in your recollection of the amount that it did embrace ten or fifteen years ago.
No I just understand from firsthand experience how much of the embracing i wrpped up in money and kickbacks outside of mix shows. How scared alot of medium market and even larger market DJs are to lose their jobs so they won't take a chance even if given the opportunity. Its not unrealistic expectations because I have no expectations from radio anymore. Its not for the music lover, its for the ads and ad revenue. Unless the majority of the population all of a sudden decides that what they listen to is important, then its going to continue to run like that and you will be dictated what is "hot or not".
It's sort of funny to me that someone like Davey D can talk about all this negativity on mainstream radio and television but he also plays a lot of gangsta/playa music on his radio show. Although those song selections are underground compared to what's played on commercial radio they still carry the same tune. Seems to me if you really want to make a mark (and Davey has the potential to do so) you got to play more positive music. I bet you Davey D doesn't know of such artists like Ugly Duckling, Giant Panda, People Under The Stairs, Kevin Brown, The Procussions, Time machine, Dooley-O, Martian Gang, Sound Providers, Asheru, J-Live, Pete philly and Perqusite, DJ Mitsu The Beats, J-Rawls, Fat Jon Etc. Etc. so until DJs liek Davey D start playing these artists and artists like them, I will turn a deaf ear cause right now he's not speaking to me.
It's sort of funny to me that someone like Davey D can talk about all this negativity on mainstream radio and television but he also plays a lot of gangsta/playa music on his radio show. Although those song selections are underground compared to what's played on commercial radio they still carry the same tune. Seems to me if you really want to make a mark (and Davey has the potential to do so) you got to play more positive music. I bet you Davey D doesn't know of such artists like Ugly Duckling, Giant Panda, People Under The Stairs, Kevin Brown, The Procussions, Time machine, Dooley-O, Martian Gang, Sound Providers, Asheru, J-Live, Pete philly and Perqusite, DJ Mitsu The Beats, J-Rawls, Fat Jon Etc. Etc. so until DJs liek Davey D start playing these artists and artists like them, I will turn a deaf ear cause right now he's not speaking to me.
Hip-hop is currently more aesthetically diverse--overall, and in terms of what makes it onto the radio--than it has been at any previous point in its history.
Just to play devil's advocate here (and further fan the flames), can we get some examples of this diversity on the radio?
My opinion, and I've said this before, is that negative aspects of rap get played up and promoted to:
A. make money
B. further perpetuate and encourage stereotypes
Do you really think all these articles and talk about the state of Hip Hop are from 30-40 something "keep it real-ers", or is there really something more here that the "2005 Keep It Trill Association" doesn't want to acknowledge?
the negative aspects of america's cartoonish idea of urban america get played up. the 2K5KITA is irrelevant. whether or not a bunch of dudes on the internet think rap is bad for america, it's still a cash cow.
at least now the theoretically exploited are getting a bigger piece of the pie. how many concious rappers ever dissed rappers who don't own their publishing? el-p and chamillionaire would get along well.
I don't know, dude: you've posted charts, labels, and promotion agencies-- I'm hard-pressed to find the stylistic-diversity-in-music speak in that
well in all fairness, you asked me to post labels, and i responded with promotion agencies because i don't know what label the boom bap project is on. i was presenting the song/artist selection as evidence, the label just happened to be listed on hot 97's website, which is where i copied the playlist from. i'm not particularly concerned with the corporate backing angle that you're harping on.
so I assumed that the issue was radio play and corporate backing. I think I see what you're trying to get at, but I maintain that comparing a powerhouse like Hot 97 to Whatever U's 2-4a.m. slot (or comparing Def Jam to Def Jux) is apple orchards vs. orange peels.
but isn't that effectively what idiotproof, who's point i was rebutting, was trying to do by saying that hot 97 should be playing J-Live?
I mean, wouldn't you expect an international behemoth of a label (or a radio station backed by "the 9th largest radio group in the U.S") to have its interests more diversified than some fake indie?
yes, and that is my point exactly. i'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.
Well, I wasn't really paying attention to idiotproof's specific line of critique (no offense, idiotproof), and thus thought that in posting the charts you were weighing in on one of the larger issues by saying, in effect, "See? Popular rap is more diverse than niche rap." That's a point that I'm not sure I agree with, but I'm always interested in what you have to say, so I was trying to get you to make a different comparison than that presented by the charts (which I don't see as valid analogues), so that I could better see where you're coming from. If all you were saying, though, is that Hot 97 should not be playing J-Live, then I obviously mis-read. My apologies.
And to the extent that I was trying to "prove" anything, it was that any 1:1 comparison of the roster diversity of Def Jam and Def Jux (or Hot 97 and WBFE) is flawed because while there are only a handful of Def Jam-level entities, there are a pantload of indies. Put another way: One can look at the percentage of music represented by one huge label or one huge radio station and say with fair accuracy ???this represents the diversity of popular rap,??? but to get anything approximating a similarly representative percentage of niche rap, a percentage that would allow one to reasonably say "this represents the diversity of niche rap," one would have to look at many indie labels or many indie stations stations. Again, though, if you weren't talking about corporate production and radio airplay, then that's irrelevant. I guess the airplay charts and hyperbolic implication that all the college rap has the same promotion agency had me thinking that you were more addressing the behind-the-scenes shit. Again: Sorry if I got you wrong.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
I came across this while checking out Oliver's poplicks blog and thought it would be a good topic to start our weekly 5 page arguments with.
In all seriousness, this makes a whole lot of sense and kind of sums up my personal feelings on the way things are and why.
who stole the soul?
Just got back from Pasadena, CA where the Rap Sessions tour is continuing. Unlike in Madison, last week, we were joined by additional members, including Ernie P (who is a regular tour member) and the Bay Area's own Davey D. Just to give some basic background, the Rap Sessions tour are a series of community/college conversations around race, hip-hop, politics, society, etc. We've had about three dates so far, beginning in Chicago back in the summer and I'm in Providence next week and then a bunch of dates in the spring.
Some interesting points made during Wed panel. I'll try to be succinct with my summaries:
Davey D spoke at length about radio and how, over the last 10-15 years, media consolidation (think Clear Channel or Infinity) have been driven by disturbing political influences designed to suppress dissent or alternative voices to the current status quo. This is why, as Davey argues, you hear 50 Cent all over the radio and on BET but you won't hear the same amount of programming devoted to songs or artists that speak on, say, spirituality, social justice, or anything that might be construed as "positive" (let alone progressive).
This goes back to one of the classic debates surrounding pop culture and hip-hop in particular: who leads who? Is crack-celebrating, big-booty-worshipping, gun-bucking rap music the result of consumers saying, "this is what we want to listen to?" Or is that merely what they're offered by corporations running record labels, radio, video, etc.? I don't think it's an either/or situation: there's overlap, collusion, etc. But ultimately, the argument being put forward is that, at least with radio, there's a concerted effort to downplay any music that diverges from (let alone critiques) the current staple of pimp/playa/gangsta rap. (Where "My Humps" fits into this, I don't know. I don't want to know.)
This has always been a highly contentious debate though unfortunately, often gets dumbed down into a set of extremes...what you might call the "corporate radio/record industry are unmitigated evil" vs. "10,000,000 Elvis fans can't be wrong" sides.
The bigger question lurking behind the issue is along the lines of, "why is today's hip-hop music - as filtered through radio - seemingly so socially irrelevant?" and in trying to address that, everyone seems to have someone else to scapegoat. Fans blame the artists for not doing more to be positive. Artists blame the industry (which would include radio and labels) for pushing their own agenda. The industry blame the fans, saying that they only deliver what the people want. And so the cycle continues. ________________________________________________________________________________ One more thing, on a somewhat related note: Davey was also arguing that 50 Cent is not as big in the streets as folks think...his reasoning was that given the huge promotional push 50 has gotten on TV, print, radio, with the upcoming movie, etc., his 4 million albums sold (for The Massacre) actually falls short of expectation and that this is evidence that 50 may be selling amongst suburban consumers but not in the hood. (Actually, I'm not sure what the logic in arriving at that conclusion is. I might have missed something).
--OLIVER
His last paragraph brings up another interesting point someone mentioned earlier in the week (and talk of this has been building everywhere, actually); Is the "50 Era" coming to a close? I can't help but see the correlation to Oliver's article and a general feeling that people want more than they're getting. Folks are basically being fed McDonalds Rap 24/7 and, I'm guessing, would like some more variety in their menu.
Time will tell...
LET THE HATTING BEGIN!
Hey Day (and others),
Me and my man E are definitely making some SERIOUS strides in completing our CD. We recorded 4 new joints this past weekend. We're halfway through and I'm already seeing that it will be "classic material", and you can quote me. Definitely something different, and various styles will be represented. You'll hear sides of the Stacks you haven't heard yet musically. No mumblin', thoughtless rap here. I'm getting really excited about the possibilities. Stay tuned....
Whether or not anyone here (in this thread, on this board, and/or in our time) actually used the phrase "the streets/z," only fools and horses would believe that this argument boils down to anything more than people who consider themselves fans of "street" rap versus people who consider themselves fans of, um, "not-quite-as-'street'" rap.
Not really.
I'd say it boils down to a disagreement between people who recognize that radio is in the business of selling ad space and so does its best to triangulate on popular taste in order to maximize listenership, and who are not overly concerned with what the radio plays, yet also not mad at it, versus those who think it's the obligation of radio to subject the listening public to niche artists.
Eh, I'm not convinced that all of this--the rumpus surrounding airplay, sales, what people "need" or "want" or "ought" to hear, etc.--is anything other than an extension of the same false Get Money vs. Pure Poverty polarity that broadly characterizes the essential (though equally false) "street" vs. "not-quite-as'street'" argument.
Whether or not anyone here (in this thread, on this board, and/or in our time) actually used the phrase "the streets/z," only fools and horses would believe that this argument boils down to anything more than people who consider themselves fans of "street" rap versus people who consider themselves fans of, um, "not-quite-as-'street'" rap.
Not really.
I'd say it boils down to a disagreement between people who recognize that radio is in the business of selling ad space and so does its best to triangulate on popular taste in order to maximize listenership, and who are not overly concerned with what the radio plays, yet also not mad at it, versus those who think it's the obligation of radio to subject the listening public to niche artists.
Eh, I'm not convinced that all of this--the rumpus surrounding airplay, sales, what people "need" or "want" or "ought" to hear, etc.--is anything other than an extension of the same false Get Money vs. Pure Poverty polarity that broadly characterizes the essential (though equally false) "street" vs. "not-quite-as'street'" argument.
Well, you know I am so deeply imprisoned within my own false consciousness that this is all lost upon me.
The only enduring gripe I have with the people on the other side of the argument from me in this thread is their fundamental intellectual dishonesty; they are not at all in favor of any sort of "balance" (whatever that may mean)--they want to see their personal taste reflected in radio playlists. That's fine, but please be honest about what you're up to and don't try to pretend that it's some sort of crusade for righteous balance. I wish New York had an all Sissy Bounce station where I could listen to Chev during any one of the day's 24 hours, but I would never pretend that my desire is simply one for "balance"; I can admit that I just want to hear what I want to muthaf**kin' to hear.
Just to play devil's advocate here (and further fan the flames), can we get some examples of this diversity on the radio?
current hot 97 top 10:
1. Soul Survivor Young Jeezy f/ Akon Def Jam 2. I Should've Cheated Keyshia Cole Interscope 3. There It Go (the Whistle Song) Juelz Santana Def Jam 4. Girl Tonight Twista f/ Tr?? Songz Atlantic 5. Run It Chris Brown f/ Juelz Santana Jive 6. We Be Burnin' Sean Paul Atlantic 7. Lighter's Up Lil Kim Queen Bee/ Atlantic 8. Youths Are So Cold Richie Spice Massive B 9. Stay Fly Three 6 Mafia Sony 10. Golddigger Kanye West Rocafella
current top ten from a certain college radio station, which i still get emails from for some reason 1 CAGE Hell's Winter 2 BLACKALICIOUS The Craft 3 BLACK MARKET MILITIA Black Market Militia 4 ATMOSPHERE You Can't Imagine How Much Fun We're Having 5 BOOM BAP PROJECT Reprogram 6 PUMPKINHEAD Orange Moon Over Brooklyn 7 J-LIVE The Hear After 8 EDAN Beauty And The Beat 9 IMMORTAL TECHNIQUE "Bin Laden" [12-Inch] 10 VAST AIRE AND MIGHTY MI The Best Damn Rap Show
Just to play devil's advocate here (and further fan the flames), can we get some examples of this diversity on the radio?
current hot 97 top 10:
1. Soul Survivor Young Jeezy f/ Akon Def Jam 2. I Should've Cheated Keyshia Cole Interscope 3. There It Go (the Whistle Song) Juelz Santana Def Jam 4. Girl Tonight Twista f/ Tr?? Songz Atlantic 5. Run It Chris Brown f/ Juelz Santana Jive 6. We Be Burnin' Sean Paul Atlantic 7. Lighter's Up Lil Kim Queen Bee/ Atlantic 8. Youths Are So Cold Richie Spice Massive B 9. Stay Fly Three 6 Mafia Sony 10. Golddigger Kanye West Rocafella
current top ten from a certain college radio station, which i still get emails from for some reason 1 CAGE Hell's Winter 2 BLACKALICIOUS The Craft 3 BLACK MARKET MILITIA Black Market Militia 4 ATMOSPHERE You Can't Imagine How Much Fun We're Having 5 BOOM BAP PROJECT Reprogram 6 PUMPKINHEAD Orange Moon Over Brooklyn 7 J-LIVE The Hear After 8 EDAN Beauty And The Beat 9 IMMORTAL TECHNIQUE "Bin Laden" [12-Inch] 10 VAST AIRE AND MIGHTY MI The Best Damn Rap Show
Just to play devil's advocate here (and further fan the flames), can we get some examples of this diversity on the radio?
current hot 97 top 10:
1. Soul Survivor Young Jeezy f/ Akon Def Jam 2. I Should've Cheated Keyshia Cole Interscope 3. There It Go (the Whistle Song) Juelz Santana Def Jam 4. Girl Tonight Twista f/ Tr?? Songz Atlantic 5. Run It Chris Brown f/ Juelz Santana Jive 6. We Be Burnin' Sean Paul Atlantic 7. Lighter's Up Lil Kim Queen Bee/ Atlantic 8. Youths Are So Cold Richie Spice Massive B 9. Stay Fly Three 6 Mafia Sony 10. Golddigger Kanye West Rocafella
current top ten from a certain college radio station, which i still get emails from for some reason 1 CAGE Hell's Winter 2 BLACKALICIOUS The Craft 3 BLACK MARKET MILITIA Black Market Militia 4 ATMOSPHERE You Can't Imagine How Much Fun We're Having 5 BOOM BAP PROJECT Reprogram 6 PUMPKINHEAD Orange Moon Over Brooklyn 7 J-LIVE The Hear After 8 EDAN Beauty And The Beat 9 IMMORTAL TECHNIQUE "Bin Laden" [12-Inch] 10 VAST AIRE AND MIGHTY MI The Best Damn Rap Show
Just to play devil's advocate here (and further fan the flames), can we get some examples of this diversity on the radio?
current hot 97 top 10:
1. Soul Survivor Young Jeezy f/ Akon Def Jam 2. I Should've Cheated Keyshia Cole Interscope 3. There It Go (the Whistle Song) Juelz Santana Def Jam 4. Girl Tonight Twista f/ Tr?? Songz Atlantic 5. Run It Chris Brown f/ Juelz Santana Jive 6. We Be Burnin' Sean Paul Atlantic 7. Lighter's Up Lil Kim Queen Bee/ Atlantic 8. Youths Are So Cold Richie Spice Massive B 9. Stay Fly Three 6 Mafia Sony 10. Golddigger Kanye West Rocafella
current top ten from a certain college radio station, which i still get emails from for some reason 1 CAGE Hell's Winter 2 BLACKALICIOUS The Craft 3 BLACK MARKET MILITIA Black Market Militia 4 ATMOSPHERE You Can't Imagine How Much Fun We're Having 5 BOOM BAP PROJECT Reprogram 6 PUMPKINHEAD Orange Moon Over Brooklyn 7 J-LIVE The Hear After 8 EDAN Beauty And The Beat 9 IMMORTAL TECHNIQUE "Bin Laden" [12-Inch] 10 VAST AIRE AND MIGHTY MI The Best Damn Rap Show
Just to play devil's advocate here (and further fan the flames), can we get some examples of this diversity on the radio?
current hot 97 top 10:
1. Soul Survivor Young Jeezy f/ Akon Def Jam 2. I Should've Cheated Keyshia Cole Interscope 3. There It Go (the Whistle Song) Juelz Santana Def Jam 4. Girl Tonight Twista f/ Tr?? Songz Atlantic 5. Run It Chris Brown f/ Juelz Santana Jive 6. We Be Burnin' Sean Paul Atlantic 7. Lighter's Up Lil Kim Queen Bee/ Atlantic 8. Youths Are So Cold Richie Spice Massive B 9. Stay Fly Three 6 Mafia Sony 10. Golddigger Kanye West Rocafella
current top ten from a certain college radio station, which i still get emails from for some reason 1 CAGE Hell's Winter 2 BLACKALICIOUS The Craft 3 BLACK MARKET MILITIA Black Market Militia 4 ATMOSPHERE You Can't Imagine How Much Fun We're Having 5 BOOM BAP PROJECT Reprogram 6 PUMPKINHEAD Orange Moon Over Brooklyn 7 J-LIVE The Hear After 8 EDAN Beauty And The Beat 9 IMMORTAL TECHNIQUE "Bin Laden" [12-Inch] 10 VAST AIRE AND MIGHTY MI The Best Damn Rap Show
which is more diverse?
wha? you don't like stay fly?
Yet he likes the Li'l Kim song...
it was i-ight. I was kinda dissapointed with Stay Fly. I thought it was going to be something else with all the "strut-hype".
Yeah I was tempted to cross out even more ish but I figured since I wanted to own the Lil' Kim 12'' a few weeks ago (it since become unneccesarry in the dancery) I'd let her live.
Comments
and of course fans of flames....
But anyways, I should back off now. I've seen this conversation before, and I can't imagine it going any differently this time around.
i'm getting sick of agreeing with you.
I have no idea what you're trying to say with any of this.
To each his own. To me, it really doesn't matter WHAT someone raps about, as long as they do it with some sort of charisma and originality, which most emcees in any sub-genre of hiphop seem to be lacking these days.
I'd be interested to hear some detail about these 'aspects' that you loathe.
Not really.
I'd say it boils down to a disagreement between people who recognize that radio is in the business of selling ad space and so does its best to triangulate on popular taste in order to maximize listenership, and who are not overly concerned with what the radio plays, yet also not mad at it, versus those who think it's the obligation of radio to subject the listening public to niche artists.
I think you may be confusing two separate arguments there.
No its actually past the point of triangulating on the commercial side. they were doing that in the late 80s and early 90s looking for formulas. They have the formulas now, its just them dictating at this point.
ie. BET is not open to any group putting their videos on the station, it has to fit a certain mold.
slow your roll man.. i never said i hate hip hop.. i grew up with that shit ... from cardboard and shell toes in elementary school, though to public enemy, ice t in junior high up through to jungle bros, de la, nwa in high school...
hell marley marl is the only reason i ever bought a sampler..
i didn't mean the only topic .. i might even be going more off interviews than actual records here... but i can't think of any underground rap records i've heard in the last 5 - 6 years be it from rhymesayers, edan, kool keith, quannum, def jux, lil brother, madlib that didnt have at least one track on it addressing either the state of industry, the radio, popular mcs, the gangsta lifestyle, thugs etc etc.
its not the only topic for sure but its definatly a touch stone.
that's cool man .. im not saying your a snob or anything.. but i find it intersting that you didnt even comment on the second half of my argument which is that underground hip hop production is a step or two behind mainstream production.
even just on the page you asked me to check, of the songs i could get to play 4 out of five were sample based.. featured minor key mellow guitar loops.. the first two even have pitched up / slowed down soul vocal samples... the same old crate diggery with some token gestures to mainstream styles (pitched soul vocals).
im sorry but i hear shit from yin yang, 3 six , banner, neptunes makes my ears perk up.. the joints may be dispossable pop but the sounds are unique, interesting and often very surprising.
Laffy Taffy hit me harder than any madlib track i've heard in years.
sample based production had its day, there's no arguing that.. i can pop on done by the forces of nature and thoroughly enjoy that shit, i can also bump just ice and have mantronix melt my brain. I have a greater respect for the mantronix side of the tracks though... im really just not jazzed about loops or samples i'd rather hear an 808 rattle over an analogue synth bass with triton horns.
Dude, again, yes the radio playlists may be clogged with "Wait" knock-offs at the moment, but you seem to be forgetting that the meme for all of that had to come from somewhere--the original "Wait" was embraced by radio, was a huge hit and was nonetheless totally original.
I think you're being unrealistic in both your expectations of the amount of shockingly original content that radio should embrace, and in your recollection of the amount that it did embrace ten or fifteen years ago.
And outside of the usual "I like this rap", "well, I like this real rap",
that is the topic at hand.
Chicken or the egg.
Oliver had it right when he said the two overlap. And I honestly can't see some of your arguments that things are balanced. What, because you get the same shit kicked from different regions? That, to me, does not equate to balance.
No I just understand from firsthand experience how much of the embracing i wrpped up in money and kickbacks outside of mix shows. How scared alot of medium market and even larger market DJs are to lose their jobs so they won't take a chance even if given the opportunity. Its not unrealistic expectations because I have no expectations from radio anymore. Its not for the music lover, its for the ads and ad revenue. Unless the majority of the population all of a sudden decides that what they listen to is important, then its going to continue to run like that and you will be dictated what is "hot or not".
You are not real.
The best thing I've read on this whole thread.
the negative aspects of america's cartoonish idea of urban america get played up. the 2K5KITA is irrelevant. whether or not a bunch of dudes on the internet think rap is bad for america, it's still a cash cow.
at least now the theoretically exploited are getting a bigger piece of the pie. how many concious rappers ever dissed rappers who don't own their publishing? el-p and chamillionaire would get along well.
Well, I wasn't really paying attention to idiotproof's specific line of critique (no offense, idiotproof), and thus thought that in posting the charts you were weighing in on one of the larger issues by saying, in effect, "See? Popular rap is more diverse than niche rap." That's a point that I'm not sure I agree with, but I'm always interested in what you have to say, so I was trying to get you to make a different comparison than that presented by the charts (which I don't see as valid analogues), so that I could better see where you're coming from. If all you were saying, though, is that Hot 97 should not be playing J-Live, then I obviously mis-read. My apologies.
And to the extent that I was trying to "prove" anything, it was that any 1:1 comparison of the roster diversity of Def Jam and Def Jux (or Hot 97 and WBFE) is flawed because while there are only a handful of Def Jam-level entities, there are a pantload of indies. Put another way: One can look at the percentage of music represented by one huge label or one huge radio station and say with fair accuracy ???this represents the diversity of popular rap,??? but to get anything approximating a similarly representative percentage of niche rap, a percentage that would allow one to reasonably say "this represents the diversity of niche rap," one would have to look at many indie labels or many indie stations stations. Again, though, if you weren't talking about corporate production and radio airplay, then that's irrelevant. I guess the airplay charts and hyperbolic implication that all the college rap has the same promotion agency had me thinking that you were more addressing the behind-the-scenes shit. Again: Sorry if I got you wrong.
Hey Day (and others),
Me and my man E are definitely making some SERIOUS strides in completing our CD. We recorded 4 new joints this past weekend. We're halfway through and I'm already seeing that it will be "classic material", and you can quote me. Definitely something different, and various styles will be represented. You'll hear sides of the Stacks you haven't heard yet musically. No mumblin', thoughtless rap here. I'm getting really excited about the possibilities. Stay tuned....
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Eh, I'm not convinced that all of this--the rumpus surrounding airplay, sales, what people "need" or "want" or "ought" to hear, etc.--is anything other than an extension of the same false Get Money vs. Pure Poverty polarity that broadly characterizes the essential (though equally false) "street" vs. "not-quite-as'street'" argument.
Well, you know I am so deeply imprisoned within my own false consciousness that this is all lost upon me.
The only enduring gripe I have with the people on the other side of the argument from me in this thread is their fundamental intellectual dishonesty; they are not at all in favor of any sort of "balance" (whatever that may mean)--they want to see their personal taste reflected in radio playlists. That's fine, but please be honest about what you're up to and don't try to pretend that it's some sort of crusade for righteous balance. I wish New York had an all Sissy Bounce station where I could listen to Chev during any one of the day's 24 hours, but I would never pretend that my desire is simply one for "balance"; I can admit that I just want to hear what I want to muthaf**kin' to hear.
wha? you don't like stay fly?
Yet he likes the Li'l Kim song...
it was i-ight. I was kinda dissapointed with Stay Fly. I thought it was going to be something else with all the "strut-hype".
Yeah I was tempted to cross out even more ish but I figured since I wanted to own the Lil' Kim 12'' a few weeks ago (it since become unneccesarry in the dancery) I'd let her live.
Both Day's post and the swipe from Oliver's blog seemed to be directed to the causes of the playlists, rather than their effects.
TTYL.