O-Dub made me think
day
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I came across this while checking out Oliver's poplicks blog and thought it would be a good topic to start our weekly 5 page arguments with.
In all seriousness, this makes a whole lot of sense and kind of sums up my personal feelings on the way things are and why.
His last paragraph brings up another interesting point someone mentioned earlier in the week (and talk of this has been building everywhere, actually); Is the "50 Era" coming to a close?
I can't help but see the correlation to Oliver's article and a general feeling that people want more than they're getting.
Folks are basically being fed McDonalds Rap 24/7 and, I'm guessing, would like some more variety in their menu.
Time will tell...
LET THE HATTING BEGIN!
In all seriousness, this makes a whole lot of sense and kind of sums up my personal feelings on the way things are and why.
who stole the soul?
Just got back from Pasadena, CA where the Rap Sessions tour is continuing. Unlike in Madison, last week, we were joined by additional members, including Ernie P (who is a regular tour member) and the Bay Area's own Davey D. Just to give some basic background, the Rap Sessions tour are a series of community/college conversations around race, hip-hop, politics, society, etc. We've had about three dates so far, beginning in Chicago back in the summer and I'm in Providence next week and then a bunch of dates in the spring.
Some interesting points made during Wed panel. I'll try to be succinct with my summaries:
Davey D spoke at length about radio and how, over the last 10-15 years, media consolidation (think Clear Channel or Infinity) have been driven by disturbing political influences designed to suppress dissent or alternative voices to the current status quo. This is why, as Davey argues, you hear 50 Cent all over the radio and on BET but you won't hear the same amount of programming devoted to songs or artists that speak on, say, spirituality, social justice, or anything that might be construed as "positive" (let alone progressive).
This goes back to one of the classic debates surrounding pop culture and hip-hop in particular: who leads who? Is crack-celebrating, big-booty-worshipping, gun-bucking rap music the result of consumers saying, "this is what we want to listen to?" Or is that merely what they're offered by corporations running record labels, radio, video, etc.? I don't think it's an either/or situation: there's overlap, collusion, etc. But ultimately, the argument being put forward is that, at least with radio, there's a concerted effort to downplay any music that diverges from (let alone critiques) the current staple of pimp/playa/gangsta rap. (Where "My Humps" fits into this, I don't know. I don't want to know.)
This has always been a highly contentious debate though unfortunately, often gets dumbed down into a set of extremes...what you might call the "corporate radio/record industry are unmitigated evil" vs. "10,000,000 Elvis fans can't be wrong" sides.
The bigger question lurking behind the issue is along the lines of, "why is today's hip-hop music - as filtered through radio - seemingly so socially irrelevant?" and in trying to address that, everyone seems to have someone else to scapegoat. Fans blame the artists for not doing more to be positive. Artists blame the industry (which would include radio and labels) for pushing their own agenda. The industry blame the fans, saying that they only deliver what the people want. And so the cycle continues.
________________________________________________________________________________
One more thing, on a somewhat related note: Davey was also arguing that 50 Cent is not as big in the streets as folks think...his reasoning was that given the huge promotional push 50 has gotten on TV, print, radio, with the upcoming movie, etc., his 4 million albums sold (for The Massacre) actually falls short of expectation and that this is evidence that 50 may be selling amongst suburban consumers but not in the hood. (Actually, I'm not sure what the logic in arriving at that conclusion is. I might have missed something).
--OLIVER
His last paragraph brings up another interesting point someone mentioned earlier in the week (and talk of this has been building everywhere, actually); Is the "50 Era" coming to a close?
I can't help but see the correlation to Oliver's article and a general feeling that people want more than they're getting.
Folks are basically being fed McDonalds Rap 24/7 and, I'm guessing, would like some more variety in their menu.
Time will tell...
LET THE HATTING BEGIN!
Comments
It hasn't done anything for Rock thus far.
I think the feeling you're getting shouldn't be localized to hip hop but to all music played on the radio and television. Radio and MTV (etc) seek to be so broad that they're narrow.
I think it's reflected in declining listenership for terrestrial radio.
Besides, as many have pondered, isn't traditional radio on its way out anyway? It's from a time when it was the only (or one of few) channels for music. Now there are so many more options that cater to specific tastes. A well-stocked iPod will do more for most than the radio has ever done.
The Internet will fix whatever problems with music there are, as least insofar as eliminating this disgusting monopoly providing us with garbage.
I mean, kanye west sold a shitload of copies too. Hes fairly outspoken politically without being in everyones face 24/7 about it. Most people go to music for a distraction. You cant beat them over the head with issues without first putting on a hell of a show.
If you're just talking about the radio, then sure. But who the fuck cares about the radio anymore? Most people understand its role, and its limitations and will make some crap songs to fit the format. But even the yin yang twins had a political track. You gotta listen to the albums. Its like david banner says, basicly you cant teach anyone if you dont know how to get their attention first.
Also, while I fully respect Davey D, and in fact i wonder why hes not posting here yet, I think its fair to say hes been yelling about the problems in the state of hip hop for a long time now.
yeah i don't think people realize that "positive" rap never really sold that much. ok, you got public enemy, that's one outlier and that's about it. otherwise "conscious" rappers were usually falling just shy of gold, while fluffy pop rap acts moved units. it's not like brand nubian or gang starr were moving 800,000 units first week out, they had a few minor hits but mostly existed under the radar of the general public (no different from the roots or common today). it just seemed bigger because rap as a whole was much smaller. honestly, I'd rather have jeezy going multi plat than some modern day equivalent of like tone loc or vanilla ice or some cheeseball bitch rapper.
and so much of it is an aesthetic judgement. people act like the roots or little brother are the answer just because they market themselves as alternative and their production values harken back to true school hip hop. but topically, they're making some of the most sacchrine, apolitical bullshit on the market, even more so than the so-called 'gangsta' rappers. there's nothing positive to be gained from rapping about rapping.
So glad to not be one of those people. That sounds like torture.
Millions more listen to Muzak (tm).
It can be. But it's true. In my workplace alone, I know one area where 10 different people share a loud radio all day and fight over the stations (Jam'n wins most of the time), and 4 other people who listen to the radio at their desks. I drive a truck all day, and listen to the radio throughout. I could play CD's or my Ipod, but the radio, for all it's redundant formatting, has an immediacy that is hard to resist. College radio keeps it real, with some commercial hip hop & oldies station surfing when it gets boring. Sports talk if I'm in the mood, like a local team is in the playoffs or something.
Ugh, sorry for the de-rail, just pointing out that radio is not the dead medium everyone wants to bury it as.
People don't know what they want. They want what they know.
It's been like that since Rome. Bread & circuses and all that shit.
I agree it's not an either/or situation, but I do feel that if any change is to happen, the artist has to make the first step.
(and I say "artist" with a slight bit of trepidation since that title would lead one to believe that "art" is somehow a factor in all of this)
I'm inclined to agree, even though I dig the roots, et al more than diplomats, gunit. etc. I mean really, I was just thinking about what songs were hot when I was a young cracker in Napa - The Packet Man/Humpty Dance, How I Could Just Kill A Man, the whole Licensed to Ill, Radio, hell even PEs first album was more braggadocio than political brouhaha. Hip Hop was and always will be great party music. Even De La was rapping about girls and parties - they were just more cryptic about it.
NWA was HUGE, yet no one says "NWA was the beginning of the end of quality hip hop".
I don't mean to put words into Phill's mouth, but I think he would agree with me that gangster rap has been popular before Clear Channel ever existed. Even in the suburbs, where the pushers at MTV make hyper-sadomasichistic rap the music of choice, I think that knowledgable rap fans exist, so hating on the suburbs -- however fun -- seems misplaced.
The real problem is the media's portrayal of rap stars. I recently debated with someone about the role models young, black males have. This person was convinced that young, black males have nearly no positive role models to look up to. Sadly, his opinion represents most folks unfamiliar with rap music. All these people see is the negative subject matter: Killing, lasciviousness, drug dealing, laundering money, etc. And they certainly see rap music promoting these things.
When I was saying the exact same thing last year that O-Dub & Davey D are saying now. I got seriously beat down for it. And called a backpacker, throwbacker, romantacist, etc... That music has changed & that's what the kids want, etc... When I implied that radio station playlists were not a direct mirror image of what the people are listening to in 'the street', I was told that I was a foreigner & don't know shit. I gave up valid statements about payola & corrupt label practices & told that wasn't the reasons & that I'm just a bitter old school head who can't get over the fact that ATCQ broke up, because my choice of music is outdated (here I am on a hip hop/funk[/b] message board..?), etc... And I was told to move on & get over the 'golden age'. Blah blah blah... YEah, I'm over it...
Interesting...
One of our main stations has a policy that during the more availbale hours of the day that 50% of teh music must be Australian & 50% of that must be from Sydney. I think they have a more extreme version in France that applies to a lot of stations. Doesn't matter in the US becaue they are the dominating entertainment culture anyway. This entails that a more expansive & diverse selection is heard by the populace & that it is harder for the to major labels to dominate & control playlists. Yes there is the argument that just because it's local doesn't always mean it's good... though always forgetting that mainstream stuff isn't always good either is a conveniently unmentionable tactic.
The recent Hot97 backlash attests that people are getting extremely fed-up with it all. People won't like anything if they never get a chance to hear it. Saturating a marketplace with 'product' will definitely get people on board, leaving the smaller labels with smaller budgets (& just as valid music) left in the lurch.
But I guess commercial radio is really just a vehicle for advertising & not music anyway...
Bring on the 5 pages...
Well sadly that's the truth. I mean any time I turn on BET it's just one ridiculous minstrel video after another. Of course your average Joe is going to focus on the negativity when it's the stereotypical images your friend speaks on that dominate the majority of what the media feeds us.
For every so-called "positive role model" you see on BET, they'll be followed by at least 10 clowns who perpetrate the pimp/thug/drug dealing image.
And sadly, there's been a CONSTANT bombardment of this image beaming down from Viacom's satelites now for years. YEARS!
So when you say "the media", I'm not sure if you're referring to some vague, broad range of outlets or simply the usual suspects (BET, MTV, Viacom, Clear Channel, etc.) who are, in my opinion anyway, the ones most responsible for fostering the image of the young, black American male to the whole of the American youth (and ultimately the rest of the world).
To me, it's always been about striking a balance.
Problem is, there hasn't been anything close to one for a very looooooooooong time now.
exactly.
Last year Hot 97 ran a series of ads depicting students NOT being able to answer basic questions about math and science, but answering correctly the number of times 50 Cent had been shot??? Once again the station for Hip Hop and R&B show its racist and backwards ways[/b]
This is the truth. The balance is not there anymore. And in response to political/social overtones in music not selling, I don't think that's correct. I mean if you compare Tribe, Bambaata, Public Enemy, NWA, Ice Cube etc. sales to the sales of 50cent, you can't really do a number to number comparison only becausae the times have changed. When political rap was at its height you had a lot of people tape dubbing, you also had a majority of the record labels not knowing what would work adn what wouldn't and as they do even today, they just chased everything around hoping to find the formula that worked. Unfortunately I think they settled on the TuPac overzealous thug nature side of rap, rather than the more middle of the road or political/social side.
To be honest though polical/social/conscious rap never had a chance in the industry. The ones that did make it big, I think only did so because the industry slipped up and were trying to find something that worked and sold, rather than working on a formula. The industry I think saw that it was easier to sell negative rather than positive and basically then gave the cold shoulder to anything pushing a social agenda. And I don't think it was necessarily a "NO MORE POLITICAL RAP", but more of a: Its easier for us to give this guy that can rap $100,000 to cut an album molded in this style than it is to search out the next hot thing in rap.
Also back in the day, almost every rapper would drop socially oriented tracks on their album alongside their "gangsta"... Big Daddy Kane would do Pimpin Aint Easy and then do an anti racism track, Biz Markie would do picking boogers then go into The Vapors, Ice-T would do GLGBNAF and go into High Rollers... The balance went even as far as their albums.
I am not saying that rappers oday don't balance it on their albums, Jay-Z and David Banner are great examples of this, but at the same time today, a majority of the rappers would never have or be allowed to have a lead off or second or third single that was conscious in most cases.
The formula is set by the labels and their agreements with the consolidated radio stations. Its not a great conspiracy its business and those companies ability to monopolize their business as much as possible to maximize their profits.
It sucks and outside of downloading, I don't see it chaging anytime soon.
I listen to alot of K-Day though in LA, all I can do at the moment... Best statiion I have heard in years.
I cannot WAIT for this whole 50 Cent thing to be over.
peace, stein. . .
It's been a LONG ass era!
Exactly. And, honestly, I still find the most mundane thug/gangsta schitt to be much more effectively "political" than a good 98% of the "real schitt."
Honestly, this whole debate is based on the fact that people have very selective memories about the actual history of what rap music was and is. Folks want to try and say that this thug/gangsta schitt is just a momentary phase and "the real schitt" will be back soon, but if anything, the overtly "political" and "conscious" schitt was the phase.
-e
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well, aside from the fact that this has absolutely nothing to do with the musical content of hot 97, it's really not much of a backlash. living in the greater new york area i probably turn on hot 97 on a near daily basis (not to mention boots riley is my favorite rapper ever) and i've never even heard anything about this scandal. from my point of view, the station as successful as it's ever been. just because a couple people on the internet are complaining in arms about doesn't mean there's any significant backlash.
really though, this is what people are talking about when they "criticize" your foreigner status. it's not some xenophobic hatting, it's just that that your perspective seems a little skewed being that you're halfway around the world. i imagine hot 97 only exists as a construct for you. you hate it because of what you've heard about it, what you read about on the internet, but how much time have you actually spent listening to the station? like dude you'd be all over mr. cee's old school mix show and you'd probably go crazy to hear flex spin back a new nas single three times.
location location location
Hell, put it on a t-shirt.
Mr Cee's show is on at 2am -4am as well. I could probably listen to that here in the afternoon.
But I can't find any streaming links. Huge station like that & no streaming audio?????
I've been to the front page, but it just looks a bit neh.. videoclip rap for me.
One look at the playlist & it's like...Hmmmn.
So it's Mr Cee. Do they play any stuff like Doom, etc... on the station?
And Fatman Scoop... I don't get. He's been down here like 3 times & plays at R & B joints.
Screaming his arse off playing silly buggers. Odd!
I do get a lot of info from the excellent 'Tools of War' mail out.
They seem to reflect what I am more into & I respect the people who run it.
And they seem to report on a lot of stuff that gets no press anywhere.
http://www.greymultimedia.com/toolsofwar.php
hip hop on trial
Hiphop goes on trial
Human rights body weighs charge that rap pushes violence against women
By SIGCINO MOYO
I'm camped out in the second-to-last row of a high school auditorium when some chatty teens behind me start whining about having to attend this, for them, mandatory assembly. It's the first performance of The Barbershop Show, a hiphop musical on a Canada-wide Human Rights Education tour, the brainchild of non-profit org the 411 Initiative for Change and sponsored by Amnesty International, among others.
The idea is to reach young people by using contemporary music to pique their interest "in issues that affect their peers," including "violence against women and girls."
After some inital trepidation, the captive audience is soon won over by the skills of the Barbershop quartet and positive hiphop culture proponent Will Strickland.
"I find it interesting that rap music is always the easiest scapegoat to target," Strickland, creator and professor of the first-ever accredited course on rap culture at the U. of Massachusetts-Amherst, tells me over the phone a few days later. "Sex and sexism is in our social and cultural fabric. Hiphop culture did not start or perfect misogyny, which is part of the condition we live in."
But Strickland's less pumped when the subject shifts to why I'm really calling, a complaint filed with the Ontario Human Rights Commission against HMV by women's rights activist Valerie Smith over what she calls the peddling of "hate rap."
"Unless they want to bring an indictment against the music industry as a whole," Strickland says, chances are the OHRC will dismiss the case. It does, nevertheless, raise some intriguing legal questions.
The thrust of Smith's complaint is that according to human rights legislation, HMV is selling "goods that contain significant amounts of gender-related verbal abuse.
In so doing, the company is discriminating against women."
"Hate rap," she says, "has spread into the mainstream of popular culture and is both poisoning attitudes toward women and girls and encouraging violence against us."
Smith, who runs her own website and whose activism was sparked by her revulsion at slasher movies, says the human rights route is "an act of desperation, because we [women] are not covered under the hate propaganda law, which is why this type of language has become so pervasive."
Her claim names the usual suspects: Snoop Dogg, 50 cent, Eminem and Ja Rule. She tried to use federal hate laws to keep bile rapper Eminem from performing here, but to no avail because "gender" is not an identifiable group in this legislation.
The provincial human rights code is the next level of "protection" down the chain. She believes it's relevant because it talks about "discrimination??? based on sex [which] includes... sexual harassment or inappropriate comments and actions of a sexual nature??? offensive remarks??? rough and vulgar humour or language related to gender."
A self-described "pop culture junkie," Smith succeeded in pressuring Bell Mobility to cease offering $2.50 downloads of "Pimptones" ??? pre-recorded skits of pimps, players and hos at their vernacular finest to be used instead of a standard rings or music. She also forced two individual Jumbo Video franchises to cull their "extreme splatter old-fashioned" slasher flick offerings.
It's hard to argue with Smith's observation that "there's been a really dramatic shift" in public discourse on misogyny when you see corporate giants lining up to get in bed with rappers while distancing themselves from artists who use homophobic or racist material.
For instance, self-described "motherfuckin' P-I-M-P" Snoop Dogg appears in ads as a shill for Chrysler. "This is clearly an indication that attitudes [toward women] have been poisoned," says Smith.
The commission's powers are very broad, in that it can order the payment of damages or otherwise do what is necessary to right discrimination.
In reality, however, U of T law prof Denise R??aume believes the chances of the OHRC ordering HMV to stop selling offensive rap are "extremely unlikely."
While some empirical research supports the proposition that exposure to material akin to rap influences attitudes toward women, "there's also a dispute about the validity of those studies," according to R??aume, because there are other contributing factors at play, and "a causal link is hard to make, given how much of our culture is misogynistic."
Says R??aume, "The use of criminal law in this context is very often counterproductive. This is heavy artillery ??? someone's going to jail, and that's not to be toyed with. The human rights mechanism is interesting because it makes for a debate, as opposed to the power of the state against an individual."
For instance, asks R??aume, "What does it do to our thinking when people walk around humming these tunes while thinking of the lyrics?"
At HMV, Dan Kuczkowski, VP of product, declines to comment. "We've got nothing to comment on because we haven't received anything from the human rights board, and until then I can't comment on anything," he says.
Chanteuse Melanie Durrant, who plays a character in an abusive relationship in one Barbershop skit, doesn't appreciate the "bitch this and ho that" one bit, but "it's not just the men," she points out.
She alludes to the current buzz over the Black Eyed Peas song My Humps, a Flow top 10 request in which the lone female in the group, Pea Fergie, sings about her glorious breasts.
And don't get her started on artist Khia's even more explicit exhortations to thugs, "Lick my pussy and my crack."
But is Durrant then being somewhat hypocritical, since she's opened for thug du jour 50 Cent?
"I'm a Canadian artist, which automatically makes me the underdog," she answers. "My music has a hiphop undertone, so if a big show comes through town I have to be there. That's the situation."
And beside, she adds, " I'm not saying bad things ??? and all those people get to see me first."
Of course, there's no shortage of adoring female fans at hiphop gigs. Is hiphop any worse than other art or social commentary that reflects negative aspects of our culture?
Another person on the local hiphop scene, former Dope Poet BellaDonna, aka Donna Michelle, is of several minds on the matter after absorbing lyrics submitted as part of Smith's complaint.
Michelle says Smith "lacks a certain understanding of hiphop culture," and that "a broader complaint against hateful material across all genres of music would be more valid."
But she also admits to feeling "hurt and violated" by some rap content. "All I can do is not buy this stuff and ask my colleagues to stop destroying our communities in this sick manner."
On the page, the lyrics are hard to defend outright, but some sure do cut a hell of a groove.
Still, when corporations primarily motivated by money get behind the production of certain cultural forms, society as a whole should be wary.
At this point in the game, is the stereotypical mainstream portrait of the black pimp coming from the streets or the boardroom?
do you think they'd be dissapointed if hot was playing their records?
for the record, i was talking about cee's lunch hour show, i have no idea what he plays on the late night. and no, no doom on hot 97.
It'd be a different kind of radio show if they did & therefore we wouldn't be talking about it here then.
...and it'd be 5am here to listen to his lunchtime show... I'm not that dedicated.
But like everyone says, it's the imbalance that is frustrating. Why not play Jay-Z then J-Live?
Both are making valid music. Just with different intentions & budgets.
Hollywood can spend a $100 mil on making a film. Doesn't mean that the film will be any good.
Someone can come out & spend $1 mil or less & make something far more substantial & interesting.
Usually because their are less 'money men' dictating the end result.
Maybe they need a Sundance type record festival to get some exposure for the indy labels.
Have we got to page 2 yet?
"It's after the end of the world...Dont you know that yet."
because j-live is not what their audience wants to hear.