Miami wasn't hero ball? hell of a lot of distance between the top 3 players on those teams and the next 9. They had a couple "glue guys" and 3 heroes. I thought that was the whole point of "the decision".
This whole hero-ball discussion is hinging on a strawman that says hero ball and depth are mutually exclusive, they're not. Jordan played hero ball, he just had a great squad around him. And you put some of those humps on teams other than the Bulls, their names would be on milk cartons.
I have watched the Warriors since the early 90s and you are absolutely out of your mind if you think the current squad isn't better than any they've fielded since trading Mitch Richmond
The Bulls looked like shit last night. Having classic post-up bigs isn't everything
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
yuichi said:
Big_Stacks said:
Hey Yuichi,
Actually, I like the Grizzlies, that's the style of play I prefer. Regarding commenting on basketball, that's a laughable comment. I've been watching basketball for nearly 40 years. Did you play organized basketball? I was as 3-year starting high school varsity point guard, so yes, I'm critical of offensive execution given that fact. The level of NBA play has devolved over the years as more and more guys now treat college ball like the 5th year of high school. So, I wasn't exactly compelled to speak on NBA play on the regular. I used to, but as always, things have changed.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I would have given you much more credit if you were down with the Bucks but whatever.
You can be an overly-critical stats douche like Bill Simmons, or you can commend whatever is out on the court while providing level-headed analysis like Hubie Brown. The cream rises to the top in any era, and good basketball always wins, so I disagree with your assessment of "devolved". That is akin to saying, "they don't make hip-hop like they did in '88".
The '04 Pistons are one of my favorite teams of all time, and Dwyane Wade had one of the most incredible individual performances (Jordan level) in Finals history. The Spurs won last year with team ball. And there's probably never been a time in history where two of the top five, three point shooters were on the same team.
The few hundred players in the league right now are hyper-athletic and not everyone's cup of tea. But comments like "the lack of intelligence" is just some ignorant shit. I'm obviously not qualified to speak on it, but I can imagine play-making and sound decision-making becomes difficult when you are moving at 80mph, rather than 50. The best obviously are able to switch it up. And if you can notice the differences, then you can probably appreciate what is out there.
Basketball probably was more "pure" two decades ago in general, but oh well.
Another point that needs to be emphasized is, Who do most players grow up idolizing? Probably not Bill Russell or Bruce Bowen or Ben Wallace. They grew up watching watching spectacular moves by guards with signature sneakers. And the millions more that's at stake now really makes skipping the second year of college a no-brainer. In other words, do not hate the player, hate the game.
Hey Yuichi,
You are really missing my points. My points have been about 'playing intellectually' to win, not insulting players' intelligence. You are correct in that I cannot imply their intelligence levels, and rightfully so, I never have. You made that implication about what I said but I never said it. Decision-making does not necessarily reflect innate intelligence, but instead, can reflect one's disposition or temperament. Professionally, I study topics such as cognitive ability (and other types of abilities) and personality, among other topics. What I find is that it is usually peoples' temperaments and not their 'abilities' that make the difference in performing at a good versus great level. I've been merely applying these ideas to NBA basketball and reiterating the common knowledge that superior execution generally trumps superior athleticism. If you don't believe me, then you could ask Coach Jerry Tarkanian about how the 1991 Duke Blue Devils sonned the high-flying, ultra-athletic University of Nevada-Las Vegas Running Rebels in the NCAA championship game. Or, as Batmon noted, look how easily the Spurs' superior execution rendered the Heat defenseless (literally) in the finals last year. So, my comments have never been about hatin' (you sound young, aren't you past 30?), but about the culmination of years of basketball watching (hell, sports watching in general) and witnessing superior strategy overcome seemingly superior talent. So many examples abound of this such as:
Ali vs. Foreman
Leonard vs. Duran II and III
Douglas vs. Tyson
Holyfield vs. Tyson I and II
Jim Watt vs. Howard Davis (1980 lightweight championship fight)
Jimmy Young vs. George Foreman (1977)
Mark Breland vs. Marlon Starling I (1987 welterweight championship fight)
Marlon Starling vs. Lloyd Honeyghan (1989 welterweight championship fight)
Villanova vs. Georgetown (1985 NCAA finals)
Alexis Arguello vs. Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini
Larry Holmes vs. Earnie Shavers
New England Patriots vs. St. Louis Rams (2001 Super Bowl)
Boston Celtics vs. Houston Rockets (1986 Finals)
Houston Rockets vs. Orlando Magic (1995 Finals)
Boston Celtics vs. Los Angeles Lakers (2008 Finals)
Pittsburgh Steelers vs. Los Angeles Rams (1980 Super Bowl)
Indiana vs. Syracuse (1986 NCAA championship)
I could go on, but I'll stop here.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
JonnyPaycheck said:
Miami wasn't hero ball? hell of a lot of distance between the top 3 players on those teams and the next 9. They had a couple "glue guys" and 3 heroes. I thought that was the whole point of "the decision".
This whole hero-ball discussion is hinging on a strawman that says hero ball and depth are mutually exclusive, they're not. Jordan played hero ball, he just had a great squad around him. And you put some of those humps on teams other than the Bulls, their names would be on milk cartons.
I have watched the Warriors since the early 90s and you are absolutely out of your mind if you think the current squad isn't better than any they've fielded since trading Mitch Richmond
The Bulls looked like shit last night. Having classic post-up bigs isn't everything
Hey Jonny,
Great points, and I agree that personnel does matter. As I have said repeatedly here, I think Golden State is a heck of a team. My question remains are they seasoned enough to execute well in the postseason as they are (with some exceptions) right now. I am questioning their experience and whether they can execute (say, a lot of jumpers at times) in the pressure of the postseason, especially deep in the playoffs. My assumption is that they will advance to later rounds in the Western Conference (which communicates my regard for their talent), but I wonder if those young guys are ready to play in those moments. In the past, it has usually taken a few playoff runs to nail down how to get the ring (e.g., 90s Bulls, 2000s Lakers, late 80s/early 90s Pistons, etc.). If the GS management keeps the team intact, then I see them winning titles down the line (with added experience).
Miami wasn't hero ball? hell of a lot of distance between the top 3 players on those teams and the next 9. They had a couple "glue guys" and 3 heroes. I thought that was the whole point of "the decision".
LeBron in Cleveland Top of the key ISO spread out ball, I'd say is much different from Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Norris Cole, Shane Battier, and Birdman in Souf Beach.
Compare that Miami run to Iverson w/ a Customized All Role player roster built around Hero in 2000.
The NBA has let let guardplay receive an advantage to speed up the game and get higher scores. Games are regularly 120-108 type shit.
Seeing Point Guards.....I said POINT guards....lead their teams in scoring is testament to where the game is being shifted.
Remind ourselves when comparing eras. These kids do not play with the Hand-Check. A dude could keep his hand on you for the Full Court.
LeBron in Cleveland Top of the key ISO spread out ball, I'd say is much different from Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Norris Cole, Shane Battier, and Birdman in Souf Beach.
Compare that Miami run to Iverson w/ a Customized All Role player roster built around Hero in 2000.
you build around what you have though. That AI squad was formidable they just ran into the Lakers with Kobe & Shaq. Same situation as many early 90s teams with the Bulls.
If all those other role players had stayed in Miami without Lebron, do you think they would be competitive this year?
LeBron in Cleveland Top of the key ISO spread out ball, I'd say is much different from Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Norris Cole, Shane Battier, and Birdman in Souf Beach.
Compare that Miami run to Iverson w/ a Customized All Role player roster built around Hero in 2000.
you build around what you have though. That AI squad was formidable they just ran into the Lakers with Kobe & Shaq. Same situation as many early 90s teams with the Bulls.
If all those other role players had stayed in Miami without Lebron, do you think they would be competitive this year?
Would LeBron have won 2 rings if he stayed in Cleveland?
Perhaps we could agree, for Hero Ball to work the hero needs to be surrounded by role players he (or she) can trust.
Because really, isn't that what the Championship Bulls, Lakers, Miami were about.
Yes. and Yes.
There was always "Hero ball". MJ DEFINED this. Generations grew up watching and emulating this. You guys act like this just started yesterday. If you wanna talk about evolution of the game, talk about how AAU and the boosters, and how everything and everyone is trying to cash in on business. Money changes things sure. Even styles of play. Factor in, strength and conditioning coaches, nutrition, down to the engineering that goes into a shoe. But let's not turn a blind eye to the entertainment factor of the game....is all i'm saying. I cringe as much as the next "Real headz" fan every time, OKC is forced into a Durant fade-away. Or when the Clippers rely heavy on Jamal Crawford to make things right. But not all flash is created equal, and really it's okay to enjoy a good "Amar'e just dunked!" moment.
We all know by now that the San Antonio Spurs play an unselfish team-oriented style. But was anyone talking about Tony Parker as a HOF'er in '05? Thought so. Yall were probably too busy following ESPN and Chris Paul.
LeBron in Cleveland Top of the key ISO spread out ball, I'd say is much different from Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Norris Cole, Shane Battier, and Birdman in Souf Beach.
Compare that Miami run to Iverson w/ a Customized All Role player roster built around Hero in 2000.
you build around what you have though. That AI squad was formidable they just ran into the Lakers with Kobe & Shaq. Same situation as many early 90s teams with the Bulls.
If all those other role players had stayed in Miami without Lebron, do you think they would be competitive this year?
Would LeBron have won 2 rings if he stayed in Cleveland?
LeBron in Cleveland Top of the key ISO spread out ball, I'd say is much different from Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Norris Cole, Shane Battier, and Birdman in Souf Beach.
Compare that Miami run to Iverson w/ a Customized All Role player roster built around Hero in 2000.
you build around what you have though. That AI squad was formidable they just ran into the Lakers with Kobe & Shaq. Same situation as many early 90s teams with the Bulls.
If all those other role players had stayed in Miami without Lebron, do you think they would be competitive this year?
Would LeBron have won 2 rings if he stayed in Cleveland?
Not with that coach he wouldn't
What eligible coach would have gotten that Cleveland team to 1 and 1/2 rings w/ that roster?
A better coach would have made that roster into Spurs/OKC/Dallas/ETC killers?
1. Dallas is all offense and no defense. Not going far in the playoffs with most match-ups in the west. Dallas has something like a 2-13 record versus playoff teams in the West right now.
ATLANTA (AP) Atlanta's balance overcame Golden State's one-two backcourt punch as Jeff Teague scored 23 to lead seven players in double figures and the Hawks beat the Warriors 124-116 on Friday night in a showdown between the NBA's conference leaders.
ATLANTA (AP) Atlanta's balance overcame Golden State's one-two backcourt punch as Jeff Teague scored 23 to lead seven players in double figures and the Hawks beat the Warriors 124-116 on Friday night in a showdown between the NBA's conference leaders.
I only caught the first half but the Warriors looked pretty flat footed on defense. At the same time the same question that holds for Golden State - can their allstar guards carry them against adversity - holds for the Hawks: who on that team can turn it on and put the team on their back? I feel like a chip-caliber squad needs a combo of good teamwork and also one or two guys that can take over a game.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
JonnyPaycheck said:
I only caught the first half but the Warriors looked pretty flat footed on defense. At the same time the same question that holds for Golden State - can their allstar guards carry them against adversity - holds for the Hawks: who on that team can turn it on and put the team on their back? I feel like a chip-caliber squad needs a combo of good teamwork and also one or two guys that can take over a game.
Hey Jonny,
Your statements sum up the essence of my commentary of all of the 'young' contending teams that folks are trying to coronate as championship material right now. I've not been questioning their talent, but their psyches concerning playing during the stress of the playoffs. Can they execute effectively at both ends against the top teams when it counts? Again, history has shown that it takes a few years for young teams to learn how to play effectively during the playoffs and get to the finals. I have the view that people are labeling them as contenders a little too soon. Time will tell, of course.
Lee should be trade bait - he's a talented player in his own right and not a perfect fit - but Bogut's health is too much of an issue, they need back-up in that area. He's a pretty damn undersized 5 but he can play it in a pinch.
Lee should be trade bait - he's a talented player in his own right and not a perfect fit - but Bogut's health is too much of an issue, they need back-up in that area. He's a pretty damn undersized 5 but he can play it in a pinch.
Hes a power forward like Milsap. i undersatnd using him on the west coast as a five w little dudes, but w Bogut thats a legit C + PF combo.
Lee was injured at the beginning of the season and Draymond Green took his starting spot and should keep it. Lee's minutes have been up and down depending upon match ups and if Lee isn't producing then Kerr pulls him.
Comments
Until we see that WIN a chip, there is no discussion.
Unless one wants to use the half season NBA 2013 Finals as an example of what lies ahead.
The year before old ass Dallas Mavs put it on Miami as well.
I wonder who Danny Green & Kawai Lenard idolized?
This whole hero-ball discussion is hinging on a strawman that says hero ball and depth are mutually exclusive, they're not. Jordan played hero ball, he just had a great squad around him. And you put some of those humps on teams other than the Bulls, their names would be on milk cartons.
I have watched the Warriors since the early 90s and you are absolutely out of your mind if you think the current squad isn't better than any they've fielded since trading Mitch Richmond
The Bulls looked like shit last night. Having classic post-up bigs isn't everything
Hey Yuichi,
You are really missing my points. My points have been about 'playing intellectually' to win, not insulting players' intelligence. You are correct in that I cannot imply their intelligence levels, and rightfully so, I never have. You made that implication about what I said but I never said it. Decision-making does not necessarily reflect innate intelligence, but instead, can reflect one's disposition or temperament. Professionally, I study topics such as cognitive ability (and other types of abilities) and personality, among other topics. What I find is that it is usually peoples' temperaments and not their 'abilities' that make the difference in performing at a good versus great level. I've been merely applying these ideas to NBA basketball and reiterating the common knowledge that superior execution generally trumps superior athleticism. If you don't believe me, then you could ask Coach Jerry Tarkanian about how the 1991 Duke Blue Devils sonned the high-flying, ultra-athletic University of Nevada-Las Vegas Running Rebels in the NCAA championship game. Or, as Batmon noted, look how easily the Spurs' superior execution rendered the Heat defenseless (literally) in the finals last year. So, my comments have never been about hatin' (you sound young, aren't you past 30?), but about the culmination of years of basketball watching (hell, sports watching in general) and witnessing superior strategy overcome seemingly superior talent. So many examples abound of this such as:
Ali vs. Foreman
Leonard vs. Duran II and III
Douglas vs. Tyson
Holyfield vs. Tyson I and II
Jim Watt vs. Howard Davis (1980 lightweight championship fight)
Jimmy Young vs. George Foreman (1977)
Mark Breland vs. Marlon Starling I (1987 welterweight championship fight)
Marlon Starling vs. Lloyd Honeyghan (1989 welterweight championship fight)
Villanova vs. Georgetown (1985 NCAA finals)
Alexis Arguello vs. Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini
Larry Holmes vs. Earnie Shavers
New England Patriots vs. St. Louis Rams (2001 Super Bowl)
Boston Celtics vs. Houston Rockets (1986 Finals)
Houston Rockets vs. Orlando Magic (1995 Finals)
Boston Celtics vs. Los Angeles Lakers (2008 Finals)
Pittsburgh Steelers vs. Los Angeles Rams (1980 Super Bowl)
Indiana vs. Syracuse (1986 NCAA championship)
I could go on, but I'll stop here.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Hey Jonny,
Great points, and I agree that personnel does matter. As I have said repeatedly here, I think Golden State is a heck of a team. My question remains are they seasoned enough to execute well in the postseason as they are (with some exceptions) right now. I am questioning their experience and whether they can execute (say, a lot of jumpers at times) in the pressure of the postseason, especially deep in the playoffs. My assumption is that they will advance to later rounds in the Western Conference (which communicates my regard for their talent), but I wonder if those young guys are ready to play in those moments. In the past, it has usually taken a few playoff runs to nail down how to get the ring (e.g., 90s Bulls, 2000s Lakers, late 80s/early 90s Pistons, etc.). If the GS management keeps the team intact, then I see them winning titles down the line (with added experience).
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
LeBron in Cleveland Top of the key ISO spread out ball, I'd say is much different from Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Norris Cole, Shane Battier, and Birdman in Souf Beach.
Compare that Miami run to Iverson w/ a Customized All Role player roster built around Hero in 2000.
The NBA has let let guardplay receive an advantage to speed up the game and get higher scores. Games are regularly 120-108 type shit.
Seeing Point Guards.....I said POINT guards....lead their teams in scoring is testament to where the game is being shifted.
Remind ourselves when comparing eras. These kids do not play with the Hand-Check. A dude could keep his hand on you for the Full Court.
RUN-TMC
Mullin SF - 25.7 ppg
Richmond SG - 23.9 ppg
Hardaway PG - 22.9 ppg.....9.7 ass
Marciulionus SG - 10.9
Steph Curry - MVP
High Post Big's isnt everything....But its all about matchups in a series.
you build around what you have though. That AI squad was formidable they just ran into the Lakers with Kobe & Shaq. Same situation as many early 90s teams with the Bulls.
If all those other role players had stayed in Miami without Lebron, do you think they would be competitive this year?
Because really, isn't that what the Championship Bulls, Lakers, Miami were about.
How old was Kobe?
I'll see what the google says.
https://www.bsports.com/iotd/stats-insight-of-the-day-oldest-and-youngest-nba-championship-teams#.VNPtqiwYHY8
Would LeBron have won 2 rings if he stayed in Cleveland?
Yes. and Yes.
There was always "Hero ball". MJ DEFINED this. Generations grew up watching and emulating this. You guys act like this just started yesterday. If you wanna talk about evolution of the game, talk about how AAU and the boosters, and how everything and everyone is trying to cash in on business. Money changes things sure. Even styles of play. Factor in, strength and conditioning coaches, nutrition, down to the engineering that goes into a shoe. But let's not turn a blind eye to the entertainment factor of the game....is all i'm saying. I cringe as much as the next "Real headz" fan every time, OKC is forced into a Durant fade-away. Or when the Clippers rely heavy on Jamal Crawford to make things right. But not all flash is created equal, and really it's okay to enjoy a good "Amar'e just dunked!" moment.
We all know by now that the San Antonio Spurs play an unselfish team-oriented style. But was anyone talking about Tony Parker as a HOF'er in '05? Thought so. Yall were probably too busy following ESPN and Chris Paul.
Arent you the "Gasol got the Lakers a ring" dude?
Not with that coach he wouldn't
What eligible coach would have gotten that Cleveland team to 1 and 1/2 rings w/ that roster?
A better coach would have made that roster into Spurs/OKC/Dallas/ETC killers?
1. Dallas is all offense and no defense. Not going far in the playoffs with most match-ups in the west. Dallas has something like a 2-13 record versus playoff teams in the West right now.
2. Think Nowitzki is hurting
And?
Hey Jonny,
Your statements sum up the essence of my commentary of all of the 'young' contending teams that folks are trying to coronate as championship material right now. I've not been questioning their talent, but their psyches concerning playing during the stress of the playoffs. Can they execute effectively at both ends against the top teams when it counts? Again, history has shown that it takes a few years for young teams to learn how to play effectively during the playoffs and get to the finals. I have the view that people are labeling them as contenders a little too soon. Time will tell, of course.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
No stops at all in that game. Like I said Atlanta was amazing with their shooting. 3 of their reserves came in and shot 7-7 from 3 point land.
Why has his minutes diminished?
Do they play Lee and Bogut for extended runs?
Hes a power forward like Milsap. i undersatnd using him on the west coast as a five w little dudes, but w Bogut thats a legit C + PF combo.