Someone post a map of this region in the world we are debating over for the past 65 years...
Hell, post settlement movements for the last 20...
I'm by no means a supporter of Hamas. But anyone who believes that peace would be upon us if they went away is kidding themselves.
The only answer is for the UN backed by all world powers and put a stop to all this madness. Not just this "war". But complete support of two states. By force if need be.
Luckily Qatar is just talk at the moment. How much of it can be as a result of the treatment of the Palestinias? On a scale 0-100%? Is it 0? Was Qatar making these statements about Jews before Israel existed?
radical Islamism does not exist because of Israel, something you (and the Arabists at the US State Department) don't seem to understand.
So they were explicitly making speeches calling for the death of Jews prior to the creation of Israel?
"...But peace between Israelis and Palestinians should be made primarily for them and by them. And anti-Americanism, like anti-Semitism and many versions of anti-Zionism, cannot be adequately understood as a response to the actions of Americans, Jews, and Zionists. Prejudice is not an instance of empirical thinking, as the tenacity of anti-Americanism after the election of Barack Obama demonstrates. There is a progressive president in America now, enchanted by ÔÇ£engagementÔÇØ and by Muslims. In the universe of jihadism, however, this alters nothing. As a matter of numinous conviction, the jihadists are anti-Americans and anti-Semites and anti-Zionists, and their anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism. They do not want to take the Israel-Palestine question off the table, they want to take Israel off the map. Their goals are literal and maximal. Their worldview is unfalsifiable; their ÔÇ£paradigmÔÇØ does not ÔÇ£shift.ÔÇØ"
The last march in London included numerous Jews - so there's some critical thinking going on outside of Israel, while within, the support for the current hostilities is either at 93% or 97%. This is doubtless because Israeli coverage focuses on the fatalities of just one side.
and this ridiculous remark is doubtless because you don't read Israeli coverage.
Not exhaustively no, but I had read that Israeli coverage was partisan and preferred to believe this could be behind the near unanimous support for war. There must be other reasons.
Jews and Arabs live together in Israel. It's not just that they don't kill each other, but they actually work and go to school together and intermarry, etc. in lots of cities.
Jews and Arabs live together in the West Bank and Jerusalem also; in some locations it's harmonious, in most locations it's not. It's very unlikely that Jews would be safe in the West Bank or parts of Jerusalem were it not for the presence of the Israeli military.
In fact, in no areas where Israel's neighbors govern do Jews safely live. When Israel was established, Iraq, Labanon, Syria, Egypt and Yemen kicked out all the Jews. When Egypt took over Gaza they kicked out all the Jews. When Jordan took over Jerusalem and the W Bank the kicked out all the Jews.
In fact, it's a totally uncontroversial point: it's generally accepted by all parties (the PA, the US, Israel) that any future Palestinian state will be ethnically cleansed of Jews.
(there's some Israeli outliers who claim to want to live in the W Bank under PA rule rather than evacuate some of Judaism's holiest sites, but I quite frankly doubt they would follow through on this, and anyway such an arrangement has never been part of any negotiations).
so yeah, I stand by my statement to LaserWolf, that Jews and Arabs have proven themselves capable of living together in relative peace in certain areas where Israel governs.
whether they could do so under Palestinian rule looks very unlikely.
With respect, much of the above information is lopsided. The encroaching Israeli settlements of the West Bank are by design meant to have the long-term effect of taking control of as much of the West Bank as possible for Israel. We are witnessing ethnic cleansing in progress there right now, where Palestinians will be forced to the margins of their occupied territory if the current trajectory holds.
LaserWolf asked me if Jews and Palestinians live together.
I said only where Israel governs does this happen. Jews were cleansed from Gaza (by the Egyptians) and the W Bank and much of Jerusalem (by the Jordanians). And the Palestinian position has always been that their future state will be similarly cleansed of Jews. In contrast, around 20% of Israel is Arab-speaking, and they and their Jewish neighbors by-and-large don't kill each other.
these aren't controversial or "lopsided" statements; they're facts.
Red herring ^^^^^^^^. You ignore the facts I stated above, and haven't addressed or even acknowledged the issue of WB settlements at all. Even the USA does not support settlement activity in the WB, let alone the vast majority of UN member nations. In the simplest of terms, it is ethnic cleansing and blatant territorial imperialism.
Jews and Arabs live together in Israel. It's not just that they don't kill each other, but they actually work and go to school together and intermarry, etc. in lots of cities.
Jews and Arabs live together in the West Bank and Jerusalem also; in some locations it's harmonious, in most locations it's not. It's very unlikely that Jews would be safe in the West Bank or parts of Jerusalem were it not for the presence of the Israeli military.
In fact, in no areas where Israel's neighbors govern do Jews safely live. When Israel was established, Iraq, Labanon, Syria, Egypt and Yemen kicked out all the Jews. When Egypt took over Gaza they kicked out all the Jews. When Jordan took over Jerusalem and the W Bank the kicked out all the Jews.
In fact, it's a totally uncontroversial point: it's generally accepted by all parties (the PA, the US, Israel) that any future Palestinian state will be ethnically cleansed of Jews.
(there's some Israeli outliers who claim to want to live in the W Bank under PA rule rather than evacuate some of Judaism's holiest sites, but I quite frankly doubt they would follow through on this, and anyway such an arrangement has never been part of any negotiations).
so yeah, I stand by my statement to LaserWolf, that Jews and Arabs have proven themselves capable of living together in relative peace in certain areas where Israel governs.
whether they could do so under Palestinian rule looks very unlikely.
With respect, much of the above information is lopsided. The encroaching Israeli settlements of the West Bank are by design meant to have the long-term effect of taking control of as much of the West Bank as possible for Israel. We are witnessing ethnic cleansing in progress there right now, where Palestinians will be forced to the margins of their occupied territory if the current trajectory holds.
LaserWolf asked me if Jews and Palestinians live together.
I said only where Israel governs does this happen. Jews were cleansed from Gaza (by the Egyptians) and the W Bank and much of Jerusalem (by the Jordanians). And the Palestinian position has always been that their future state will be similarly cleansed of Jews. In contrast, around 20% of Israel is Arab-speaking, and they and their Jewish neighbors by-and-large don't kill each other.
these aren't controversial or "lopsided" statements; they're facts.
Red herring ^^^^^^^^. You ignore the facts I stated above, and haven't addressed or even acknowledged the issue of WB settlements at all. Even the USA does not support settlement activity in the WB, let alone the vast majority of UN member nations. In the simplest of terms, it is ethnic cleansing and blatant territorial imperialism.
dude try to follow this:
1. Laserwolf asked me a question
2. I answered it
3. you took my quote and said it was lopsided, raising some whole other shit
4. I tried to clarify my original post
5. you're now mad at me for "ignoring" the whole other shit you brought up that Laserwolf and I weren't talking about.
why should I respond to your "ethnic cleansing" shit when you have it ass backwards?
the Palestinian population both within Israel and in the W Bank and Gaza has been steadily increasing.
the only "ethnic cleansing" going on in recent memory is Jews from Gaza, and eventually Jews from the W Bank when the Palestinians succeed in establishing their long-sought-after Jew-free state, adding to an already impressive list of Jew-free Arab states in the region, all of them bastions of human rights and good times as Palestine will no doubt also be.
Yeah, that's what happens on an internet forum, sometimes people respond to what is being written and the discussion moves in other directions. No one is mad here (except maybe kala), I just want to hear what the justification is for the settlement issue, which has been brought up multiple times in this thread without real response, IMO.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
MusicaDelAlma said:
Yeah, that's what happens on an internet forum, sometimes people respond to what is being written and the discussion moves in other directions. No one is mad here (except maybe kala), I just want to hear what the justification is for the settlement issue, which has been brought up multiple times in this thread without real response, IMO.
Dude, Israel still allows Palestinians in their hospitals.
The last march in London included numerous Jews - so there's some critical thinking going on outside of Israel, while within, the support for the current hostilities is either at 93% or 97%. This is doubtless because Israeli coverage focuses on the fatalities of just one side.
and this ridiculous remark is doubtless because you don't read Israeli coverage.
Not exhaustively no, but I had read that Israeli coverage was partisan and preferred to believe this could be behind the near unanimous support for war. There must be other reasons.
Luckily Qatar is just talk at the moment. How much of it can be as a result of the treatment of the Palestinias? On a scale 0-100%? Is it 0? Was Qatar making these statements about Jews before Israel existed?
radical Islamism does not exist because of Israel, something you (and the Arabists at the US State Department) don't seem to understand.
So they were explicitly making speeches calling for the death of Jews prior to the creation of Israel?
Luckily Qatar is just talk at the moment. How much of it can be as a result of the treatment of the Palestinias? On a scale 0-100%? Is it 0? Was Qatar making these statements about Jews before Israel existed?
radical Islamism does not exist because of Israel, something you (and the Arabists at the US State Department) don't seem to understand.
So they were explicitly making speeches calling for the death of Jews prior to the creation of Israel?
Johnny is still knocking the NYPD. You are going to hate this but, most of the people they kill deserved it. Overall they really crack down and crime and keep cities crime at historically low levels. Yes, there are several incidents a year where police are involved in terrible things but there are like 40,000 uniformed cops statistically they are not all going to be perfect.
It's time to move forward and try alternate strategies to address the problem that everyone knows is a problem, but no on can really talk about.
Or you can just keep talking about how disenfranchised people are and how that is an excuse fire everything and anything.
Johnny is still knocking the NYPD. You are going to hate this but, most of the people they kill deserved it. Overall they really crack down and crime and keep cities crime at historically low levels. Yes, there are several incidents a year where police are involved in terrible things but there are like 40,000 uniformed cops statistically they are not all going to be perfect.
It's time to move forward and try alternate strategies to address the problem that everyone knows is a problem, but no on can really talk about.
Or you can just keep talking about how disenfranchised people are and how that is an excuse fire everything and anything.
Yeah, that's what happens on an internet forum, sometimes people respond to what is being written and the discussion moves in other directions. No one is mad here (except maybe kala), I just want to hear what the justification is for the settlement issue, which has been brought up multiple times in this thread without real response, IMO.
Dude, Israel still allows Palestinians in their hospitals.
First the egyptians, then the romans, then the nazi's, now with the arabs..
What will it take for people to learn putting 'lets kill the jews' first place on their wishlist is not a good idea?
Luckily Qatar is just talk at the moment. How much of it can be as a result of the treatment of the Palestinias? On a scale 0-100%? Is it 0? Was Qatar making these statements about Jews before Israel existed?
radical Islamism does not exist because of Israel, something you (and the Arabists at the US State Department) don't seem to understand.
So they were explicitly making speeches calling for the death of Jews prior to the creation of Israel?
I take Leon Wieseltier's view on this
But you're not going to answer the question.
I dont try to make excuses for racist imams.
Thats ur role apparently not mine.
Still not an answer = Israel apologist step #1. Play the racism card!
I haven't offered an opinion on whether or not racist Imams are justified or not, I'm asking if they have always been anti-semetic. I'm interested in why and when this started, as I don't believe anyone is born hating Jews. Maybe Israelis do.
I haven't offered an opinion on whether or not racist Imams are justified or not, I'm asking if they have always been anti-semetic. I'm interested in why and when this started, as I don't believe anyone is born hating Jews. Maybe Israelis do.
Is the answer your looking for that they didn't start hating, firing rockets at and teaching their children to "kill Jews" until they were given a good reason to?
First the egyptians, then the romans, then the nazi's, now with the arabs..
What will it take for people to learn putting 'lets kill the jews' first place on their wishlist is not a good idea?
Babylonians, Cossacks, Spanish...
The theme of most Jewish holidays is, They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat.
Luckily Qatar is just talk at the moment. How much of it can be as a result of the treatment of the Palestinias? On a scale 0-100%? Is it 0? Was Qatar making these statements about Jews before Israel existed?
radical Islamism does not exist because of Israel, something you (and the Arabists at the US State Department) don't seem to understand.
So they were explicitly making speeches calling for the death of Jews prior to the creation of Israel?
I take Leon Wieseltier's view on this
But you're not going to answer the question.
I dont try to make excuses for racist imams.
Thats ur role apparently not mine.
Still not an answer = Israel apologist step #1. Play the racism card!
I haven't offered an opinion on whether or not racist Imams are justified or not, I'm asking if they have always been anti-semetic. I'm interested in why and when this started, as I don't believe anyone is born hating Jews. Maybe Israelis do.
rootlesscosmo said:
(I know you're new to this Palestinian advocacy stuff, but here's a hint: no one really tries to defend Hamas' racist, supremacist ideology (or that of any other Jew-hating Islamist organization or country like Qatar). Better to focus on Israeli brutality and Gazan civilian suffering, and to pretend that what Israel's enemies say and do doesn't actually matter.)
Former combat soldier and company sergeant of the Israeli army turned whistle-blower Eran Efrati, aged 28, was arrested by the Israeli authorities and questioned concerning his research regarding the use of illegal weapons in Gaza.
On Tuesday, July 29, Efrati announced on Facebook that he received information from sources within the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) revealing what he claims to be the real reason for the Shuja'iyya massacre which occurred nine days prior, on July 20, namely that civilians were targeted and killed by Israeli soldiers as punishment for the death of soldiers in their units.
In addition to being arrested and questioned, Efrati had both his Facebook and Email accounts blocked and apparently received death threats aimed at keeping him silent.
Comments
You really believe it's just that simple?
Someone post a map of this region in the world we are debating over for the past 65 years...
Hell, post settlement movements for the last 20...
I'm by no means a supporter of Hamas. But anyone who believes that peace would be upon us if they went away is kidding themselves.
The only answer is for the UN backed by all world powers and put a stop to all this madness. Not just this "war". But complete support of two states. By force if need be.
I take Leon Wieseltier's view on this, included in his recent piece aimed at Andrew Sullivan (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/something-much-darker):
"...But peace between Israelis and Palestinians should be made primarily for them and by them. And anti-Americanism, like anti-Semitism and many versions of anti-Zionism, cannot be adequately understood as a response to the actions of Americans, Jews, and Zionists. Prejudice is not an instance of empirical thinking, as the tenacity of anti-Americanism after the election of Barack Obama demonstrates. There is a progressive president in America now, enchanted by ÔÇ£engagementÔÇØ and by Muslims. In the universe of jihadism, however, this alters nothing. As a matter of numinous conviction, the jihadists are anti-Americans and anti-Semites and anti-Zionists, and their anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism. They do not want to take the Israel-Palestine question off the table, they want to take Israel off the map. Their goals are literal and maximal. Their worldview is unfalsifiable; their ÔÇ£paradigmÔÇØ does not ÔÇ£shift.ÔÇØ"
You read that?
Ok.
yeah he pops up from time to time.
ran into him in DC earlier this year.
Red herring ^^^^^^^^. You ignore the facts I stated above, and haven't addressed or even acknowledged the issue of WB settlements at all. Even the USA does not support settlement activity in the WB, let alone the vast majority of UN member nations. In the simplest of terms, it is ethnic cleansing and blatant territorial imperialism.
dude try to follow this:
1. Laserwolf asked me a question
2. I answered it
3. you took my quote and said it was lopsided, raising some whole other shit
4. I tried to clarify my original post
5. you're now mad at me for "ignoring" the whole other shit you brought up that Laserwolf and I weren't talking about.
why should I respond to your "ethnic cleansing" shit when you have it ass backwards?
the Palestinian population both within Israel and in the W Bank and Gaza has been steadily increasing.
the only "ethnic cleansing" going on in recent memory is Jews from Gaza, and eventually Jews from the W Bank when the Palestinians succeed in establishing their long-sought-after Jew-free state, adding to an already impressive list of Jew-free Arab states in the region, all of them bastions of human rights and good times as Palestine will no doubt also be.
Can't wait.
Dude, Israel still allows Palestinians in their hospitals.
I've been reading a lot of links to a lot of different news sites, and I don't even know where I read the commentary on it, but google found the article with the war-support figures: http://www.vox.com/2014/7/31/5955077/israeli-support-for-the-gaza-war-is-basically-unanimous
But you're not going to answer the question.
I dont try to make excuses for racist imams.
Thats ur role apparently not mine.
OK DOLO
biggest asshole on planet earth?
YOU WIN!
What, yeah after they've shot them
What will it take for people to learn putting 'lets kill the jews' first place on their wishlist is not a good idea?
Still not an answer = Israel apologist step #1. Play the racism card!
I haven't offered an opinion on whether or not racist Imams are justified or not, I'm asking if they have always been anti-semetic. I'm interested in why and when this started, as I don't believe anyone is born hating Jews. Maybe Israelis do.
NXET LVELL
I'm still tripping about Fox News...
Is the answer your looking for that they didn't start hating, firing rockets at and teaching their children to "kill Jews" until they were given a good reason to?
The theme of most Jewish holidays is, They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat.
From 2009 and nothing has changed.
Another school targetted.
Yeah yeah, but it's a war against fanatics yadda yadda.
mine too fwiw , american funded genocide purely and simply
and I have lived in Israel so do know how it is there
one wonders what exactly it *would* take to stop the U.S. from chucking bales of money Israel's way. "thank you sir may I have another" is correct.