I wanted to return to this as I've seen claim and counter-claim been thrown around about all kinds of shit. Hospital gets bombed, Israel claim it was a stray Hamas rocket. UN witnesses claim to have seen a drone fire the rocket.
Too many Israeli claims turn out to be lies.
So when there's a protest that the police disperse because of a rocket attack that was probably neutered by Iron Dome, if it happened at all, it's natural to look at things suspiciously and wonder, and get Morlock-Eloy vibes. Does prolonging the war serve anyone in Israel? What would they have to gain for keeping a conflict going, and what would they have to lose if they stopped it? The present guys in charge don't look like they want peace.
meanwhile according to this cunting whore of babylon it's business as usual
hoe hum
The senior White House adviser Susan Rice used a crucial speech on Monday to underscore the administration's commitment to Israel and dismiss critics of its military offensive in Gaza, which has claimed hundreds of civilian lives, as biased and unjustified.
In a staunch defence of Israel's response to rockets fired from the Palestinian territory controlled by Hamas, Rice was particularly critical of the United Nations human rights council, which recently voted for an inquiry into the possible war crimes violations committed by Israel.
"When countries single out Israel for unfair treatment at the UN, it isn't just a problem for Israel, it is a problem for all of us," Rice said on Monday. She added: "No country is immune from criticism, nor should it be. But when that criticism takes the form of singling out just one country, unfairly, bitterly and relentlessly, over and over and over, that is just wrong ÔÇô and we all know it."
Rice, who is national security adviser to Barack Obama, expressed concern about the deaths of civilians, on both sides, and reiterated the US president's call for an immediate and unconditional humanitarian ceasefire.
The top adviser's remarks came at a critical juncture. Rice spoke shortly after Israel's prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, used a televised press conference to warn Israelis to prepare for a long and protracted conflict, defying international calls for a cessation of the violence.
The language used by the White House to express concern over civilian deaths has hardened slightly in recent days, as the death toll has mounted. And there have been numerous reports of friction between Washington and Jerusalem over the last 24 hours over the fallout over the failed attempt by the US secretary of state John Kerry to broker a ceasefire.
Rice said the US was "dismayed" by anonymous briefings to the Israeli press that were critical of Kerry and, she said, gave a misleading impression of his diplomatic efforts in the region. But she gave no impression the tensions between the US and Israel, which have been evident in anonymous briefings to reporters, had significantly damaged relations.
Nor did Rice give any indication the US would be bowed by the rising chorus of international concern about a conflict that has killed more than 1,080 Palestinians. The United Nations estimates more than 70% of those killed on the Palestinian side are civilians. Israel has lost 52 soldiers during the conflict and three civilians have been killed by rocket fire or mortar fire from Hamas.
Throughout the conflict the US has defended Israel's military activities while expressing concern over the death of innocent bystanders. After a brief lull in the conflict, hostilities resumed on Monday with further casualties, including nine children reportedly killed while playing in a Gaza refugee camp.
Rice's comments ÔÇô the first official US statement about the conflict since Netanyahu's pledged Israel would press ahead with its offensive ÔÇô were made at a hastily convened "solidarity" meeting convened by Jewish groups in Washington.
Senior Republican and Democratic political figures gave speeches at the meeting defending Israel's right to defend itself, condemning the activities of Hamas and discounting criticism of its military action as disproportionate or misguided.
"At times like this, people try to isolate Israel ÔÇô but we are here to stand with Israel," said John Boehner, the Republican speaker of the House. "Not just as a broker or observer ÔÇô but as a strong partner and a trusted ally." Boehner said US support for Israel "doesn't mean issuing vague, on-the-one-hand, on-the-other-hand statements", adding: "No, it means backing up our words, and showing solidarity with our friend".
Rice struck a similar tone: "Here is one thing you never have to worry about: America's support for the state of Israel." She added: "Hamas initiated this conflict. And Hamas has dragged it on."
In the portion of her remarks noting civilian suffering, Rice said: "I know we all share deep concern about the suffering and deaths of innocent people that arise from a conflict like this one, in Gaza as well as in Israel. The people of Gaza, many of whom disapprove of Hamas and suffer under its misrule, are trapped in the crossfire. The loss of children has been particularly heartbreaking."
She added: "We need to bring the violence and civilian casualties to an end and we are concerned that continued fighting could further destabilise the West Bank." However, Rice made no criticism of Israel's military operation.
Earlier, the UN security council called on both sides to implement an immediate ceasefire, expressing "grave concern" at the deteriorating situation and growing tally on civilian lives and casualties. Rice did not mention the UN resolution, which had US backing, but did express broader concern at how the international community, through the UN, treats Israel.
She singled out the vote by the UN human rights council last week in favour of an independent inquiry into alleged violations of international human rights and humanitarian law by Israel. Seventeen countries abstained during the vote, and only one country ÔÇô the US ÔÇô voted against.
Rice called the the UN inquiry "one-sided" and said it would "have no positive impact and should never have been created". "The United States stood with Israel, and said 'no'. We were the lone vote in the human rights council. Even our closest friends on the council abstained. It was 29 to one. But the one, as usual, was America. That is what we mean when we say: you are not alone."
Rice's remarks were briefly interrupted by a heckler, who later gave his name as Tighe Barry, 50, from Los Angeles. He said he had flown to Washington from California to attend the meeting and belonged to an organisation called Jewish Voices for Peace.
"The truth is, Israel is killing innocent people in Gaza," he yelled during Rice's speech, before he was quickly and forcefully wrestled out by security. "Stop the bombing, stop the killing, stop the hate."
Does prolonging the war serve anyone in Israel? What would they have to gain for keeping a conflict going, and what would they have to lose if they stopped it? The present guys in charge don't look like they want peace.
In short, a ceasefire now would mean the war's goals where not achieved and Netanyahu would be ousted for the perceived weakness of bowing to international pressure and not finishing the job.
I think it has been proven, that Hamas and Israel's enemies do not have the weapons, forces or will to annihilate Israel.
They not only have the will. It is their declared intention. They don't yet have the means but considering the current situation in Syria and Iraq this could potentially change fairly quick.
Ask yourself why does Hamas continue firing rockets that have such little military effect on Israel while causing such devastating retaliation? The only motivation for this is to use imagery as posted in this thread as propaganda and this propaganda apparently works. None of these children would be dead if Hamas wouldn't have fired those missiles. They sacrificed these people and they continue doing so.
Any comparison of this war/conflict to the Holocaust is just plain stupid and misinformed at an absurd level. If you have to ask why then -I'm sorry -but then you're just an idiot. Same goes for this apartheid and racial segregation bullshit.
Antisemitism in Europe has an old tradition that reaches back to long before the 3rd Reich and which as a latent undercurrent has survived ever since, just waiting for it to again become socially acceptable. Now we can witness it rearing its ugly head as Jewish stores are smashed and fire is being set to Synagogues.
Hopefully your points about Holocaust comparisons and antisemitism were not aimed at me as I have made it clear I do not believe that.
At your point aimed at me, why lob ineffectual rockets?
I have come up with 2 reasons; stupidity (or hubris), and it is all they have.
Both of which make much more sense than your explanation:
A. Israel will react in a stupid (or hubris) way
B. Hamas can use Israel's stupidity for propaganda
C. That propaganda will lead to the annihilation of Israel.
Your scenario assumes that; Hamas are brilliant masterminds, Israel will respond in a way that assures annihilation.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
I wanted to return to this as I've seen claim and counter-claim been thrown around about all kinds of shit. Hospital gets bombed, Israel claim it was a stray Hamas rocket. UN witnesses claim to have seen a drone fire the rocket.
Too many Israeli claims turn out to be lies.
So when there's a protest that the police disperse because of a rocket attack that was probably neutered by Iron Dome, if it happened at all, it's natural to look at things suspiciously and wonder, and get Morlock-Eloy vibes. Does prolonging the war serve anyone in Israel? What would they have to gain for keeping a conflict going, and what would they have to lose if they stopped it? The present guys in charge don't look like they want peace.
are you just kind of ruminating out loud here? do you have something specific to say about my post/the peace rally that was broken up by Hamas rocket fire?
do you maybe want to address the underlying point, which is that the Israeli Left has the impossible task of convincing the Israeli public of the wisdom of entrusting their security to an Islamist terrorist organization?
as I stated earlier:
rootlesscosmo said:
So limited border openings have led almost entirely to the construction of an infrastructure to attack Israel, and you would now ask Israel (or ask Israel's leaders to ask Israel's public), to *decrease* their control over Gaza's borders?
What the fuck kind of government would do that? Seriously, how do you sell that to your voters? "Sure, Gaza is run by a group that wants to actually replace our country with a Muslim state, and sure they've used what limited border control they had almost entirely to build a means to carry out this very wish....but let's just open up the borders a little more and see what happens. Maybe it'll turn out different this time?"
but on the topic of "What would they have to gain for keeping a conflict going, and what would they have to lose if they stopped it? " -- Obviously there's losers when an armed conflict ends: there's money to be made in arms, and members of the security establishment lose their influence when peace comes. This is true of every conflict.
but Israel is a country: it will remain when peace comes, and furthermore would enjoy a massive peace dividend if ever they were able to lay down arms. the advances in high tech and clean tech and biotech coming out of Israel could be even greater. they could fix their schools and lift people out of poverty and work to halt environmental degradation. all the brainpower and people power devoted to the military could be applied to this stuff.
Israel's raison d'etre -- thankfully -- is not to battle Hamas.
hard to see what *they* gain by ending hostilities; killing Jews is pretty much all they have to run on these days.
to summarize: if Israel were to find a way to stop fighting Hamas, they'd be in a much better situation all around; if Hamas were to decide to stop fighting Israel...then what's the point of Hamas?
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
Over a million Palestinians live in Israel in peace and security. Thousands of Israeli settlers (by no means all of them) live in the West Bank and Jerusalem in relative peace with their Arab neighbors also.
Communities of Israelis and Palestinians can live together in peace where Israel governs. Whether that's possible under a Palestinian regime remains to be seen. I frankly doubt it.
Whether Israel and Hamas can live side-by-side in separate countries in peace is an open question. I frankly doubt it.
I think it has been proven, that Hamas and Israel's enemies do not have the weapons, forces or will to annihilate Israel.
They not only have the will. It is their declared intention. They don't yet have the means but considering the current situation in Syria and Iraq this could potentially change fairly quick.
Ask yourself why does Hamas continue firing rockets that have such little military effect on Israel while causing such devastating retaliation? The only motivation for this is to use imagery as posted in this thread as propaganda and this propaganda apparently works. None of these children would be dead if Hamas wouldn't have fired those missiles. They sacrificed these people and they continue doing so.
Any comparison of this war/conflict to the Holocaust is just plain stupid and misinformed at an absurd level. If you have to ask why then -I'm sorry -but then you're just an idiot. Same goes for this apartheid and racial segregation bullshit.
Antisemitism in Europe has an old tradition that reaches back to long before the 3rd Reich and which as a latent undercurrent has survived ever since, just waiting for it to again become socially acceptable. Now we can witness it rearing its ugly head as Jewish stores are smashed and fire is being set to Synagogues.
Hopefully your points about Holocaust comparisons and antisemitism were not aimed at me as I have made it clear I do not believe that.
At your point aimed at me, why lob ineffectual rockets?
I have come up with 2 reasons; stupidity (or hubris), and it is all they have.
Both of which make much more sense than your explanation:
A. Israel will react in a stupid (or hubris) way
B. Hamas can use Israel's stupidity for propaganda
C. That propaganda will lead to the annihilation of Israel.
Your scenario assumes that; Hamas are brilliant masterminds, Israel will respond in a way that assures annihilation.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
Yes, everyone appearing to be 'anti Israel' are anti-Semites or Nazis and Hamas is this think group with a fixed media strategy of self genocide. Sounds reasonable. I guess bad PR for Israel and the chagrin of lefties throughout the West will make up for all the dead.
In history class at school we learnt that marginalising and dehumanise your opotition are the first rules of propaganda, but that's definitely not what's going on here.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
Over a million Palestinians live in Israel in peace and security. Thousands of Israeli settlers (by no means all of them) live in the West Bank and Jerusalem in relative peace with their Arab neighbors also.
Communities of Israelis and Palestinians can live together in peace where Israel governs. Whether that's possible under a Palestinian regime remains to be seen. I frankly doubt it.
Peace as in they're not killing each other on a daily basis? So basically as long as Israel keeps Palestinians oppressed and powerless they can live in peace.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
Over a million Palestinians live in Israel in peace and security. Thousands of Israeli settlers (by no means all of them) live in the West Bank and Jerusalem in relative peace with their Arab neighbors also.
Communities of Israelis and Palestinians can live together in peace where Israel governs. Whether that's possible under a Palestinian regime remains to be seen. I frankly doubt it.
Peace as in they're not killing each other on a daily basis? So basically as long as Israel keeps Palestinians oppressed and powerless they can live in peace.
me and Laserwolf are having an adult conversation. thanks for stopping by.
I think it has been proven, that Hamas and Israel's enemies do not have the weapons, forces or will to annihilate Israel.
They not only have the will. It is their declared intention. They don't yet have the means but considering the current situation in Syria and Iraq this could potentially change fairly quick.
Ask yourself why does Hamas continue firing rockets that have such little military effect on Israel while causing such devastating retaliation? The only motivation for this is to use imagery as posted in this thread as propaganda and this propaganda apparently works. None of these children would be dead if Hamas wouldn't have fired those missiles. They sacrificed these people and they continue doing so.
Any comparison of this war/conflict to the Holocaust is just plain stupid and misinformed at an absurd level. If you have to ask why then -I'm sorry -but then you're just an idiot. Same goes for this apartheid and racial segregation bullshit.
Antisemitism in Europe has an old tradition that reaches back to long before the 3rd Reich and which as a latent undercurrent has survived ever since, just waiting for it to again become socially acceptable. Now we can witness it rearing its ugly head as Jewish stores are smashed and fire is being set to Synagogues.
Hopefully your points about Holocaust comparisons and antisemitism were not aimed at me as I have made it clear I do not believe that.
At your point aimed at me, why lob ineffectual rockets?
I have come up with 2 reasons; stupidity (or hubris), and it is all they have.
Both of which make much more sense than your explanation:
A. Israel will react in a stupid (or hubris) way
B. Hamas can use Israel's stupidity for propaganda
C. That propaganda will lead to the annihilation of Israel.
Your scenario assumes that; Hamas are brilliant masterminds, Israel will respond in a way that assures annihilation.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
My mistake for not making this clear. Only my first paragraph was meant as a response to your original comment. The rest was a general and useless comment on what else I read in this thread.
Yes, everyone appearing to be 'anti Israel' are anti-Semites or Nazis
I didn't say that.
I'll say this: Attacking Jews, Jewish businesses and Synagogues in Paris and in Berlin are violent acts of Antisemitism.
But yeah, I guess it's more en vogue to throw around with Holocaust comparisons and apartheid nonsense than to call an antisemitic act and act of antisemitism.
Okem said:
...and Hamas is this think group with a fixed media strategy of self genocide.
It's called martyrdom and hasn't much to do with thinking but more with fanaticism.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
Over a million Palestinians live in Israel in peace and security. Thousands of Israeli settlers (by no means all of them) live in the West Bank and Jerusalem in relative peace with their Arab neighbors also.
Communities of Israelis and Palestinians can live together in peace where Israel governs. Whether that's possible under a Palestinian regime remains to be seen. I frankly doubt it.
Peace as in they're not killing each other on a daily basis? So basically as long as Israel keeps Palestinians oppressed and powerless they can live in peace.
me and Laserwolf are having an adult conversation. thanks for stopping by.
Not everyone is going to break their back trying to be as impartial and bipartisan as Laserwolf and you're speaking in a public forum so gtfohwtb.
...and Hamas is this think group with a fixed media strategy of self genocide.
It's called martyrdom and hasn't much to do with thinking but more with fanaticism.
The general populace of Gaza, the men women and children living in the only home they have, being killed by a billion dollar war machine they have no hope of defending themselves against did not choose to be martyrs.
If it was any other nation on earth boycotts and sanctions would be widely applauded. An anti Russia sentiment has been fueled and encouraged even on here. But because of the history of the people involved in Gaza it's a lot more complicated, which is why being so quick to throw around labels like Nazi and anti-semite aren't helpful.
...and Hamas is this think group with a fixed media strategy of self genocide.
It's called martyrdom and hasn't much to do with thinking but more with fanaticism.
The general populace of Gaza, the men women and children living in the only home they have, being killed by a billion dollar war machine they have no hope of defending themselves against did not choose to be martyrs.
No they didn't, it was Hamas who made this decision for them. The consequences for their missile fire was totally clear to them.
Okem said:
If it was any other nation on earth boycotts and sanctions would be widely applauded. An anti Russia sentiment has been fueled and encouraged even on here. But because of the history of the people involved in Gaza it's a lot more complicated, which is why being so quick to throw around labels like Nazi and anti-semite aren't helpful.
I did not call anybody a Nazi.
I'm calling people Anti-Semites who are clearly committing Anti-Semitic acts as in attacking Jews on the streets of Berlin, smashing Jewish businesses and firebombing synagogues in Germany. These acts are Anti-Semitic by definition.
It is the pro-Palestinian side that constantly throws around comparisons that just won't fit. Your talk about Russia is just another example of a completely stupid, misguided and ill-informed comparison and it doesn't even work for what you are trying to say. If the Ukrainian army would fire missiles into Russian territory I don't think anybody would suggest sanctioning Russia for retaliating.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
Over a million Palestinians live in Israel in peace and security. Thousands of Israeli settlers (by no means all of them) live in the West Bank and Jerusalem in relative peace with their Arab neighbors also.
Communities of Israelis and Palestinians can live together in peace where Israel governs. Whether that's possible under a Palestinian regime remains to be seen. I frankly doubt it.
Peace as in they're not killing each other on a daily basis? So basically as long as Israel keeps Palestinians oppressed and powerless they can live in peace.
me and Laserwolf are having an adult conversation. thanks for stopping by.
Not everyone is going to break their back trying to be as impartial and bipartisan as Laserwolf and you're speaking in a public forum so gtfohwtb.
aight I'll bother with this:
Jews and Arabs live together in Israel. It's not just that they don't kill each other, but they actually work and go to school together and intermarry, etc. in lots of cities.
Jews and Arabs live together in the West Bank and Jerusalem also; in some locations it's harmonious, in most locations it's not. It's very unlikely that Jews would be safe in the West Bank or parts of Jerusalem were it not for the presence of the Israeli military.
In fact, in no areas where Israel's neighbors govern do Jews safely live. When Israel was established, Iraq, Labanon, Syria, Egypt and Yemen kicked out all the Jews. When Egypt took over Gaza they kicked out all the Jews. When Jordan took over Jerusalem and the W Bank the kicked out all the Jews.
In fact, it's a totally uncontroversial point: it's generally accepted by all parties (the PA, the US, Israel) that any future Palestinian state will be ethnically cleansed of Jews.
(there's some Israeli outliers who claim to want to live in the W Bank under PA rule rather than evacuate some of Judaism's holiest sites, but I quite frankly doubt they would follow through on this, and anyway such an arrangement has never been part of any negotiations).
so yeah, I stand by my statement to LaserWolf, that Jews and Arabs have proven themselves capable of living together in relative peace in certain areas where Israel governs.
whether they could do so under Palestinian rule looks very unlikely.
...and Hamas is this think group with a fixed media strategy of self genocide.
It's called martyrdom and hasn't much to do with thinking but more with fanaticism.
The general populace of Gaza, the men women and children living in the only home they have, being killed by a billion dollar war machine they have no hope of defending themselves against did not choose to be martyrs.
No they didn't, it was Hamas who made this decision for them. The consequences for their missile fire was totally clear to them.
So they get fucked either way. And we can can continue to take sides on the internet, argue over semantics and name calling, blaming one group whilst demonising the other.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
Over a million Palestinians live in Israel in peace and security. Thousands of Israeli settlers (by no means all of them) live in the West Bank and Jerusalem in relative peace with their Arab neighbors also.
Communities of Israelis and Palestinians can live together in peace where Israel governs. Whether that's possible under a Palestinian regime remains to be seen. I frankly doubt it.
Peace as in they're not killing each other on a daily basis? So basically as long as Israel keeps Palestinians oppressed and powerless they can live in peace.
me and Laserwolf are having an adult conversation. thanks for stopping by.
Not everyone is going to break their back trying to be as impartial and bipartisan as Laserwolf and you're speaking in a public forum so gtfohwtb.
aight I'll bother with this:
Jews and Arabs live together in Israel. It's not just that they don't kill each other, but they actually work and go to school together and intermarry, etc. in lots of cities.
Jews and Arabs live together in the West Bank and Jerusalem also; in some locations it's harmonious, in most locations it's not. It's very unlikely that Jews would be safe in the West Bank or parts of Jerusalem were it not for the presence of the Israeli military.
In fact, in no areas where Israel's neighbors govern are Jews safe. When Israel was established, Iraq, Labanon, Syria, Egypt and Yemen kicked out all the Jews. When Egypt took over Gaza they kicked out all the Jews. When Jordan took over Jerusalem and the W Bank the kicked out all the Jews.
In fact, it's a totally uncontroversial point: it's generally accepted by all parties (the PA, the US, Israel) that any future Palestinian state will be ethnically cleansed of Jews.
(there's some Israeli outliers who claim to want to live in the W Bank under PA rule rather than evacuate some of Judaism's holiest sites, but I quite frankly doubt they would follow through on this, and anyway such an arrangement has never been part of any negotiations).
so yeah, I stand by my statement to LaserWolf, that Jews and Arabs have proven themselves capable of living together in relative peace in certain areas where Israel governs.
whether they could do so under Palestinian rule looks very unlikely.
That's a lot more reasonable response. thankyou.
I have been to Israel so I've experience a very small amount of what it is like to live there (not that means much of anything). I can empathise with your point of view but still find it very Israel centric, which is totally understandable. It's a wholly fucked up situation with seemingly no route for recourse, so I'm not going to pretend to have answers. But from what know of the Palestinian's life in the area it seems to be one of oppression and seconded class citizens. Which may bring temporary safety for the non Palestinians, but as long as both sides are somewhat fuelled by zealots and extremists constantly stoking the fires, it will be those citizens who will be the first to suffer and perpetually where the next generation of sworn killers come from. It's like some kind of perpetual hate machine.
When I boycotted South Africa the demand was clear, end apartheid.
What is the goal of boycotting Israel?
C'mon, you're an imaginative guy.
I have read a great many complaints from you and others here calling for a boycott.
So I have to ask, what is the goal?
Is it the end of this incursion into Gaza? I'd support that.
Or is it
The end of the occupation of the West Bank?
Jerusalem?
Full Palestinian citizenship?
The end of Israel?
Or is it, I don't like Israel so I am going to boycott them?
If you are serious you sill have a goal.
When I boycotted South Africa the demand was clear, end apartheid.
What is the goal of boycotting Israel?
C'mon, you're an imaginative guy.
I have read a great many complaints from you and others here calling for a boycott.
So I have to ask, what is the goal?
Is it the end of this incursion into Gaza? I'd support that.
Or is it
The end of the occupation of the West Bank?
Jerusalem?
Full Palestinian citizenship?
The end of Israel?
Or is it, I don't like Israel so I am going to boycott them?
If you are serious you sill have a goal.
Peace. Israel aren't interested in that right now.
Rootless will say they are, and Hamas is to blame. Nobody wants to break the cycle. B-b-but what about a Palestine boycott? Boycott what? Their rockets are the only thing coming out of Gaza. Olives? Israel has been fucking those up. After peace, and end to the apartheid, and end to the military occupation. Talk about lines on the map as equals.
...and Hamas is this think group with a fixed media strategy of self genocide.
It's called martyrdom and hasn't much to do with thinking but more with fanaticism.
The general populace of Gaza, the men women and children living in the only home they have, being killed by a billion dollar war machine they have no hope of defending themselves against did not choose to be martyrs.
No they didn't, it was Hamas who made this decision for them. The consequences for their missile fire was totally clear to them.
So Frank, how do you explain this? I'm not being antagonizing, I'm being serious here.
Israel attacked a UN-run school housing refugees in Gaza despite warnings that civilians were there, the UN has said.
The UN says this is the sixth time that one of its schools has been hit by shellfire since this conflict began. And I've been told by UN officials on the ground that they believe Israeli forces were responsible on each occasion.
Mr Gunness, from the UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), told the BBC that Israel had been told 17 times that the school in the Jabaliya refugee camp was housing the displaced.
"The last time was hours before the fatal attack," he said. "Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school."
He said there had been "multiple deaths" including women and children, adding that the attack caused "universal shame".
This is outright bombing of humanitarian workers and civilians. I can't see how the martyrdom argument can be used to defend this, or the other 5 times this has happened.
Israel destroyed the only power plant in Gaza (intentionally - this is a tactic of war) so there is not only no electricity but there is no more clean water (that requires electricity).
So at the height of summer you have lots of dead bodies, no a/c, and no clean water.
As deplorable as the situation facing the palestinians is, you are kidding yourself by assuming they are lamb like innocents being slaughtered devoid of any culpability. Would you encourage your children anywhere from the age of 8 to engage in rock throwing battles with heavily armed military personnel?
What do you think will happen to pre teens who decide to start throwing rocks at new yorks finest? they would get beat the fuck down, just like palestinian americans visiting and having their kids engage in holiday skirmishes with israeli troops can testify.
Of the 132 seats in the PLC - 74 are held by hamas - they were VOTED in by palestinians - this is what that looks like
incidentally do you think hamas is some alien body wreaking havoc in palestine? hamas consists of palestinians. they are the brothers and fathers and sons of palestinians, digging tunnels, firing rockets, stashing arms in schools, obtaining drones and purposefully engaging a hugely superior, destructive, trigger happy and paranoid military machine - in part hoping for that money shot of a dead palestinian child to prove their point, to march out before the cameras, as we can all agree that actual victory of hamas over israel is laughably unattainable.
so what then, what could possibly be the point of attacking israel? The propaganda machine works both ways.
So once again, as sick as the current situation is - you or the palestinians cant possibly deny they are playing a huge part in their own 'martyrdom'.
I dont think you will find any comparable broadcasts on Israeli television -
As deplorable as the situation facing the palestinians is, you are kidding yourself by assuming they are lamb like innocents being slaughtered devoid of any culpability.
If you can really say that about dead children you need to ask yourself what being an Israeli apologist is costing you.
As deplorable as the situation facing the palestinians is, you are kidding yourself by assuming they are lamb like innocents being slaughtered devoid of any culpability.
If you can really say that about dead children you need to ask yourself what being an Israeli apologist is costing you.
i was referring to palestinians, not dead palestinian children.
what is being a hamas apologist costing you? no, thats right, posting 'fuck israel' and #boycott israel online has cleansed and elevated you.
children are part of a community and parents are responsible to a large degree for what befalls their children.
it is impossible for palestinians to walk away from their responsibility in what is happening to them and their children.
Do people really still not understand this as colonial project? There are no two sides when one group (European Jews) subjugates another (Palestinian Arabs) in their own homeland seeking to exterminate them in order to set up and preserve a Jewish supremacist ethnocracy which has engendered massive ethnic cleansing, a brutal illegal 47 year military occupation, and full blown apartheid worse than South Africa. This conflict is a simple matter of a colonizer (Israel 11th strongest military backed by the US strongest military) and the colonized (Palestinians no military). The type of colonization that is the at the heart of the Zionist project is settler colonialism which is categorically genocidal. If you look at the history the Zionist project should never of even been allowed to happen especially in the 20th century. How the world can allow this level of racist exterminatory colonial onslaught and occupation is utterly insane. This is not a normal geopolitical battle/civil war/invasion; this is the worst type of violence western civilization has produced.
Beyond the tit-for-tat of ÔÇ£who started itÔÇØ many are busy debating, it is crucial to emphasize that Israel has illegally occupied the Palestinian territories for many decades, is actively engaging in land theft through illegal settlement expansion, and is imposing a system of apartheid. Under those circumstances, IsraelÔÇÖs very posture is offensive, and it cannot claim to be engaging in ÔÇ£self-defenseÔÇØ against the very people whose land it has illegally usurped.
To personalize this for a moment, imagine a bully sitting on a smaller child, and every time someone objects to the fact that the bully is beating the smaller child with an iron rod, the bully exclaims, ÔÇ£Well, he tried to slap me, so I was forced to defend myself.ÔÇØ No, you canÔÇÖt claim that youÔÇÖre beating the smaller child with an iron rod in self-defense, especially when you can end the entire confrontation simply by getting off him. Back to the political reality, Norman Finkelstein put it best: ÔÇ£The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no.ÔÇØ
IsraelÔÇÖs Message to Palestinians
When you take into account everything I mentioned so far, you begin to realize that the ubiquitous talking point ÔÇ£Israel was forced to defend itself from Hamas rocketsÔÇØ is wrong on three counts: 1) This round of violence did not start with Hamas rockets; 2) Israel was not ÔÇ£forcedÔÇØ into this confrontation; and 3) Israel as the occupying power is certainly not ÔÇ£defendingÔÇØ itself.
Under these circumstances, the atrocious bombing of Gaza and the killing of hundreds of civilians makes clear that IsraelÔÇÖs message to Palestinians is this: You will live under our boot, occupied, besieged, dispossessed and humiliated without any semblance of freedom. On occasion, we may even go on a violent rampage against you, but you better not respond. Because if any of you ever dare respond to our violence with violence, we will be forced to ÔÇ£defend ourselvesÔÇØ by using our overwhelming military might to beat your entire society into submission.
Do people really still not understand this as colonial project? There are no two sides when one group (European Jews) subjugates another (Palestinian Arabs) in their own homeland seeking to exterminate them in order to set up and preserve a Jewish supremacist ethnocracy which has engendered massive ethnic cleansing, a brutal illegal 47 year military occupation, and full blown apartheid worse than South Africa. This conflict is a simple matter of a colonizer (Israel 11th strongest military backed by the US strongest military) and the colonized (Palestinians no military). The type of colonization that is the at the heart of the Zionist project is settler colonialism which is categorically genocidal. If you look at the history the Zionist project should never of even been allowed to happen especially in the 20th century. How the world can allow this level of racist exterminatory colonial onslaught and occupation is utterly insane. This is not a normal geopolitical battle/civil war/invasion; this is the worst type of violence western civilization has produced.
I can almost see the spittle forming at the corners of your mouth.
Comments
I wanted to return to this as I've seen claim and counter-claim been thrown around about all kinds of shit. Hospital gets bombed, Israel claim it was a stray Hamas rocket. UN witnesses claim to have seen a drone fire the rocket.
Too many Israeli claims turn out to be lies.
So when there's a protest that the police disperse because of a rocket attack that was probably neutered by Iron Dome, if it happened at all, it's natural to look at things suspiciously and wonder, and get Morlock-Eloy vibes. Does prolonging the war serve anyone in Israel? What would they have to gain for keeping a conflict going, and what would they have to lose if they stopped it? The present guys in charge don't look like they want peace.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/israel-gaza-infrastructure-blackouts-idf-civilian
With blackouts, food shortages and sewage in the streets, observers say the IDF either targets civilians or has terrible aim
hoe hum
The senior White House adviser Susan Rice used a crucial speech on Monday to underscore the administration's commitment to Israel and dismiss critics of its military offensive in Gaza, which has claimed hundreds of civilian lives, as biased and unjustified.
In a staunch defence of Israel's response to rockets fired from the Palestinian territory controlled by Hamas, Rice was particularly critical of the United Nations human rights council, which recently voted for an inquiry into the possible war crimes violations committed by Israel.
"When countries single out Israel for unfair treatment at the UN, it isn't just a problem for Israel, it is a problem for all of us," Rice said on Monday. She added: "No country is immune from criticism, nor should it be. But when that criticism takes the form of singling out just one country, unfairly, bitterly and relentlessly, over and over and over, that is just wrong ÔÇô and we all know it."
Rice, who is national security adviser to Barack Obama, expressed concern about the deaths of civilians, on both sides, and reiterated the US president's call for an immediate and unconditional humanitarian ceasefire.
The top adviser's remarks came at a critical juncture. Rice spoke shortly after Israel's prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, used a televised press conference to warn Israelis to prepare for a long and protracted conflict, defying international calls for a cessation of the violence.
The language used by the White House to express concern over civilian deaths has hardened slightly in recent days, as the death toll has mounted. And there have been numerous reports of friction between Washington and Jerusalem over the last 24 hours over the fallout over the failed attempt by the US secretary of state John Kerry to broker a ceasefire.
Rice said the US was "dismayed" by anonymous briefings to the Israeli press that were critical of Kerry and, she said, gave a misleading impression of his diplomatic efforts in the region. But she gave no impression the tensions between the US and Israel, which have been evident in anonymous briefings to reporters, had significantly damaged relations.
Nor did Rice give any indication the US would be bowed by the rising chorus of international concern about a conflict that has killed more than 1,080 Palestinians. The United Nations estimates more than 70% of those killed on the Palestinian side are civilians. Israel has lost 52 soldiers during the conflict and three civilians have been killed by rocket fire or mortar fire from Hamas.
Throughout the conflict the US has defended Israel's military activities while expressing concern over the death of innocent bystanders. After a brief lull in the conflict, hostilities resumed on Monday with further casualties, including nine children reportedly killed while playing in a Gaza refugee camp.
Rice's comments ÔÇô the first official US statement about the conflict since Netanyahu's pledged Israel would press ahead with its offensive ÔÇô were made at a hastily convened "solidarity" meeting convened by Jewish groups in Washington.
Senior Republican and Democratic political figures gave speeches at the meeting defending Israel's right to defend itself, condemning the activities of Hamas and discounting criticism of its military action as disproportionate or misguided.
"At times like this, people try to isolate Israel ÔÇô but we are here to stand with Israel," said John Boehner, the Republican speaker of the House. "Not just as a broker or observer ÔÇô but as a strong partner and a trusted ally." Boehner said US support for Israel "doesn't mean issuing vague, on-the-one-hand, on-the-other-hand statements", adding: "No, it means backing up our words, and showing solidarity with our friend".
Rice struck a similar tone: "Here is one thing you never have to worry about: America's support for the state of Israel." She added: "Hamas initiated this conflict. And Hamas has dragged it on."
In the portion of her remarks noting civilian suffering, Rice said: "I know we all share deep concern about the suffering and deaths of innocent people that arise from a conflict like this one, in Gaza as well as in Israel. The people of Gaza, many of whom disapprove of Hamas and suffer under its misrule, are trapped in the crossfire. The loss of children has been particularly heartbreaking."
She added: "We need to bring the violence and civilian casualties to an end and we are concerned that continued fighting could further destabilise the West Bank." However, Rice made no criticism of Israel's military operation.
Earlier, the UN security council called on both sides to implement an immediate ceasefire, expressing "grave concern" at the deteriorating situation and growing tally on civilian lives and casualties. Rice did not mention the UN resolution, which had US backing, but did express broader concern at how the international community, through the UN, treats Israel.
She singled out the vote by the UN human rights council last week in favour of an independent inquiry into alleged violations of international human rights and humanitarian law by Israel. Seventeen countries abstained during the vote, and only one country ÔÇô the US ÔÇô voted against.
Rice called the the UN inquiry "one-sided" and said it would "have no positive impact and should never have been created". "The United States stood with Israel, and said 'no'. We were the lone vote in the human rights council. Even our closest friends on the council abstained. It was 29 to one. But the one, as usual, was America. That is what we mean when we say: you are not alone."
Rice's remarks were briefly interrupted by a heckler, who later gave his name as Tighe Barry, 50, from Los Angeles. He said he had flown to Washington from California to attend the meeting and belonged to an organisation called Jewish Voices for Peace.
"The truth is, Israel is killing innocent people in Gaza," he yelled during Rice's speech, before he was quickly and forcefully wrestled out by security. "Stop the bombing, stop the killing, stop the hate."
Hopefully your points about Holocaust comparisons and antisemitism were not aimed at me as I have made it clear I do not believe that.
At your point aimed at me, why lob ineffectual rockets?
I have come up with 2 reasons; stupidity (or hubris), and it is all they have.
Both of which make much more sense than your explanation:
A. Israel will react in a stupid (or hubris) way
B. Hamas can use Israel's stupidity for propaganda
C. That propaganda will lead to the annihilation of Israel.
Your scenario assumes that; Hamas are brilliant masterminds, Israel will respond in a way that assures annihilation.
These governments will have to learn to live together.
Thousands of Palestinians and Israel's prove that it can be done every day. (Rootless am I right about the last point?)
are you just kind of ruminating out loud here? do you have something specific to say about my post/the peace rally that was broken up by Hamas rocket fire?
do you maybe want to address the underlying point, which is that the Israeli Left has the impossible task of convincing the Israeli public of the wisdom of entrusting their security to an Islamist terrorist organization?
as I stated earlier:
but on the topic of "What would they have to gain for keeping a conflict going, and what would they have to lose if they stopped it? " -- Obviously there's losers when an armed conflict ends: there's money to be made in arms, and members of the security establishment lose their influence when peace comes. This is true of every conflict.
but Israel is a country: it will remain when peace comes, and furthermore would enjoy a massive peace dividend if ever they were able to lay down arms. the advances in high tech and clean tech and biotech coming out of Israel could be even greater. they could fix their schools and lift people out of poverty and work to halt environmental degradation. all the brainpower and people power devoted to the military could be applied to this stuff.
Israel's raison d'etre -- thankfully -- is not to battle Hamas.
Hamas on the other hand has offered nothing to the people of Gaza except a military buildup. and now that they've been revealed to be as corrupt as Fatah (http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/28/gazas-millionaires-and-billionaires-how-hamass-leaders-got-rich-quick/), they don't have the "clean governance"/anti-corruption card to play anymore either.
hard to see what *they* gain by ending hostilities; killing Jews is pretty much all they have to run on these days.
to summarize: if Israel were to find a way to stop fighting Hamas, they'd be in a much better situation all around; if Hamas were to decide to stop fighting Israel...then what's the point of Hamas?
Over a million Palestinians live in Israel in peace and security. Thousands of Israeli settlers (by no means all of them) live in the West Bank and Jerusalem in relative peace with their Arab neighbors also.
Communities of Israelis and Palestinians can live together in peace where Israel governs. Whether that's possible under a Palestinian regime remains to be seen. I frankly doubt it.
Whether Israel and Hamas can live side-by-side in separate countries in peace is an open question. I frankly doubt it.
What is the goal of boycotting Israel?
b/w I love my Israeli Feta from Trader Joes.
I like my yahrziet candle and Hanukkah candles to come from Israel.
In history class at school we learnt that marginalising and dehumanise your opotition are the first rules of propaganda, but that's definitely not what's going on here.
me and Laserwolf are having an adult conversation. thanks for stopping by.
My mistake for not making this clear. Only my first paragraph was meant as a response to your original comment. The rest was a general and useless comment on what else I read in this thread.
I didn't say that.
I'll say this: Attacking Jews, Jewish businesses and Synagogues in Paris and in Berlin are violent acts of Antisemitism.
But yeah, I guess it's more en vogue to throw around with Holocaust comparisons and apartheid nonsense than to call an antisemitic act and act of antisemitism.
It's called martyrdom and hasn't much to do with thinking but more with fanaticism.
C'mon, you're an imaginative guy.
If it was any other nation on earth boycotts and sanctions would be widely applauded. An anti Russia sentiment has been fueled and encouraged even on here. But because of the history of the people involved in Gaza it's a lot more complicated, which is why being so quick to throw around labels like Nazi and anti-semite aren't helpful.
No they didn't, it was Hamas who made this decision for them. The consequences for their missile fire was totally clear to them.
I did not call anybody a Nazi.
I'm calling people Anti-Semites who are clearly committing Anti-Semitic acts as in attacking Jews on the streets of Berlin, smashing Jewish businesses and firebombing synagogues in Germany. These acts are Anti-Semitic by definition.
It is the pro-Palestinian side that constantly throws around comparisons that just won't fit. Your talk about Russia is just another example of a completely stupid, misguided and ill-informed comparison and it doesn't even work for what you are trying to say. If the Ukrainian army would fire missiles into Russian territory I don't think anybody would suggest sanctioning Russia for retaliating.
aight I'll bother with this:
Jews and Arabs live together in Israel. It's not just that they don't kill each other, but they actually work and go to school together and intermarry, etc. in lots of cities.
Jews and Arabs live together in the West Bank and Jerusalem also; in some locations it's harmonious, in most locations it's not. It's very unlikely that Jews would be safe in the West Bank or parts of Jerusalem were it not for the presence of the Israeli military.
In fact, in no areas where Israel's neighbors govern do Jews safely live. When Israel was established, Iraq, Labanon, Syria, Egypt and Yemen kicked out all the Jews. When Egypt took over Gaza they kicked out all the Jews. When Jordan took over Jerusalem and the W Bank the kicked out all the Jews.
And the PA aims to kick out all the Jews from the W Bank again. In contrast to Israel, where a large non-Jewish community resides, the Palestinian Authority (to say nothing of Hamas) has made it clear that they want a Jew-free state. (http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Palestinian-envoy-to-US-wants-Jew-free-state)
In fact, it's a totally uncontroversial point: it's generally accepted by all parties (the PA, the US, Israel) that any future Palestinian state will be ethnically cleansed of Jews.
(there's some Israeli outliers who claim to want to live in the W Bank under PA rule rather than evacuate some of Judaism's holiest sites, but I quite frankly doubt they would follow through on this, and anyway such an arrangement has never been part of any negotiations).
so yeah, I stand by my statement to LaserWolf, that Jews and Arabs have proven themselves capable of living together in relative peace in certain areas where Israel governs.
whether they could do so under Palestinian rule looks very unlikely.
I have been to Israel so I've experience a very small amount of what it is like to live there (not that means much of anything). I can empathise with your point of view but still find it very Israel centric, which is totally understandable. It's a wholly fucked up situation with seemingly no route for recourse, so I'm not going to pretend to have answers. But from what know of the Palestinian's life in the area it seems to be one of oppression and seconded class citizens. Which may bring temporary safety for the non Palestinians, but as long as both sides are somewhat fuelled by zealots and extremists constantly stoking the fires, it will be those citizens who will be the first to suffer and perpetually where the next generation of sworn killers come from. It's like some kind of perpetual hate machine.
I have read a great many complaints from you and others here calling for a boycott.
So I have to ask, what is the goal?
Is it the end of this incursion into Gaza? I'd support that.
Or is it
The end of the occupation of the West Bank?
Jerusalem?
Full Palestinian citizenship?
The end of Israel?
Or is it, I don't like Israel so I am going to boycott them?
If you are serious you sill have a goal.
Peace. Israel aren't interested in that right now.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel
Rootless will say they are, and Hamas is to blame. Nobody wants to break the cycle. B-b-but what about a Palestine boycott? Boycott what? Their rockets are the only thing coming out of Gaza. Olives? Israel has been fucking those up. After peace, and end to the apartheid, and end to the military occupation. Talk about lines on the map as equals.
So Frank, how do you explain this? I'm not being antagonizing, I'm being serious here.
This is outright bombing of humanitarian workers and civilians. I can't see how the martyrdom argument can be used to defend this, or the other 5 times this has happened.
So at the height of summer you have lots of dead bodies, no a/c, and no clean water.
What do you think will happen to pre teens who decide to start throwing rocks at new yorks finest? they would get beat the fuck down, just like palestinian americans visiting and having their kids engage in holiday skirmishes with israeli troops can testify.
Of the 132 seats in the PLC - 74 are held by hamas - they were VOTED in by palestinians - this is what that looks like
incidentally do you think hamas is some alien body wreaking havoc in palestine? hamas consists of palestinians. they are the brothers and fathers and sons of palestinians, digging tunnels, firing rockets, stashing arms in schools, obtaining drones and purposefully engaging a hugely superior, destructive, trigger happy and paranoid military machine - in part hoping for that money shot of a dead palestinian child to prove their point, to march out before the cameras, as we can all agree that actual victory of hamas over israel is laughably unattainable.
so what then, what could possibly be the point of attacking israel? The propaganda machine works both ways.
So once again, as sick as the current situation is - you or the palestinians cant possibly deny they are playing a huge part in their own 'martyrdom'.
I dont think you will find any comparable broadcasts on Israeli television -
If you can really say that about dead children you need to ask yourself what being an Israeli apologist is costing you.
i was referring to palestinians, not dead palestinian children.
what is being a hamas apologist costing you? no, thats right, posting 'fuck israel' and #boycott israel online has cleansed and elevated you.
children are part of a community and parents are responsible to a large degree for what befalls their children.
it is impossible for palestinians to walk away from their responsibility in what is happening to them and their children.
Debunking the myths about Gaza: The truth behind Israeli and Palestinian talking points
excerpted from the above article:
Occupation and Self-Defense
Beyond the tit-for-tat of ÔÇ£who started itÔÇØ many are busy debating, it is crucial to emphasize that Israel has illegally occupied the Palestinian territories for many decades, is actively engaging in land theft through illegal settlement expansion, and is imposing a system of apartheid. Under those circumstances, IsraelÔÇÖs very posture is offensive, and it cannot claim to be engaging in ÔÇ£self-defenseÔÇØ against the very people whose land it has illegally usurped.
To personalize this for a moment, imagine a bully sitting on a smaller child, and every time someone objects to the fact that the bully is beating the smaller child with an iron rod, the bully exclaims, ÔÇ£Well, he tried to slap me, so I was forced to defend myself.ÔÇØ No, you canÔÇÖt claim that youÔÇÖre beating the smaller child with an iron rod in self-defense, especially when you can end the entire confrontation simply by getting off him. Back to the political reality, Norman Finkelstein put it best: ÔÇ£The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no.ÔÇØ
IsraelÔÇÖs Message to Palestinians
When you take into account everything I mentioned so far, you begin to realize that the ubiquitous talking point ÔÇ£Israel was forced to defend itself from Hamas rocketsÔÇØ is wrong on three counts: 1) This round of violence did not start with Hamas rockets; 2) Israel was not ÔÇ£forcedÔÇØ into this confrontation; and 3) Israel as the occupying power is certainly not ÔÇ£defendingÔÇØ itself.
Under these circumstances, the atrocious bombing of Gaza and the killing of hundreds of civilians makes clear that IsraelÔÇÖs message to Palestinians is this: You will live under our boot, occupied, besieged, dispossessed and humiliated without any semblance of freedom. On occasion, we may even go on a violent rampage against you, but you better not respond. Because if any of you ever dare respond to our violence with violence, we will be forced to ÔÇ£defend ourselvesÔÇØ by using our overwhelming military might to beat your entire society into submission.
Well, actually I agree with this - it's impossible for them to walk away because they're imprisoned by Israel.
I can almost see the spittle forming at the corners of your mouth.
and it's gross.