I see Watchtower and other Christian off-shoot pamphlets left around transit now and then, but no one is as aggressive as Mormons sending teens to roam buses and subways approaching riders.
Yeah, conversion period. Much harder to do than baptizing dead folks.
The Book of Mormon has deep connections to the "lost tribes of Israel" in which links the faith to the House of Joseph. There may be some prestige in converting a person of the Jewish faith to Mormonism but as someone with little or no direct knowledge of the faith I can not back that assertion up.
I will say that Mormons are serious about proselytizing. Whatever your feelings on faith in general or theirs in particular most Mormons I have met live their faith. That is more than I can say for a lot of other religious groups out there that I have met. It is one thing to profess a belief, quite another to live it.
I think the hope is that this place could be a notch or two above, say, the comments section of a Yahoo news article.
Maybe that's a pipe dream.
+1
there are some other good threads going I just wish we could ditch the political ones. the discourse here isn't even particularly trenchant/edifying. nobody's minds are being changed. what's the point?
I see Watchtower and other Christian off-shoot pamphlets left around transit now and then, but no one is as aggressive as Mormons sending teens to roam buses and subways approaching riders.
Yeah, conversion period. Much harder to do than baptizing dead folks.
The Book of Mormon has deep connections to the "lost tribes of Israel" in which links the faith to the House of Joseph. There may be some prestige in converting a person of the Jewish faith to Mormonism but as someone with little or no direct knowledge of the faith I can not back that assertion up.
I will say that Mormons are serious about proselytizing. Whatever your feelings on faith in general or theirs in particular most Mormons I have met live their faith. That is more than I can say for a lot of other religious groups out there that I have met. It is one thing to profess a belief, quite another to live it.
I mentioned before that Mormons always treat me as a long lost brother when they find out I am Jewish.
They think they are Jewish also.
They also think that Native Americans are Jewish/Mormon.
I have never met a Jew who converted to anything, except perhaps a different Jewish sect or atheism.
I have never met a JewsForJesus who was ethnically Jewish.
there are some other good threads going I just wish we could ditch the political ones. the discourse here isn't even particularly trenchant/edifying. nobody's minds are being changed. what's the point?
Actually, for me personally, constructing an argument makes me think about what I am saying (usually). Counter points that have some weight will force me to reassess. I have gone out a researched points of view I had not considered or where unaware of because of these threads. There is a give and take in a good debate. In the end I will still sit down and drink a beer with a great many of the folks here.
Even when I briefly lost my mind a few days ago, I took myself out of that discussion and gave myself a one day time out. Rock and I sorted out what happened privately (which I will say was me basically apologizing directly to him for my freak out).
The great thing about the other threads is they are still there. I really enjoyed the "Jamaica sounds the alarm over its music" thread and got to hear some music that I would have never been exposed to otherwise. I didn't directly participate because its not my style of music and poppin' in and sayin' "Great Thread Bro!" didn't seem appropriate. Should I just posted a thank you?
Back to the topic at hand, this will all be over on Nov. 6. Either Obama or Romney will be POTUS and that will be that.
I don't disagree that constructing an argument requires mental vigor and is worthwhile.
With the current crowd here, I can't be arsed.
As far as your freakout, I didn't even see that shit. I know this will strike many of the older strutteurs as the very peak of irony, but I have no idea how you guys do it. Don't you have jobs?
I know this will strike many of the older strutteurs as the very peak of irony, but I have no idea how you guys do it. Don't you have jobs?
Sadly I am still looking for full time work. I finished my accounting degree in June. I am in the process of studying for the CPA exam and I work very part time right now as a bookkeeper. To say my hours are fluid right now is understatement. Tax season (Jan 2013) will probably see me working 40-50 hours a week in pick-up work if I haven't nailed down a full time job by then.
i saw some mormons with a table setup to play jenga in the subway
those dudes were ill and could have easily converted me
i can't be fucked to post non-hyperbole/trolly trollz in political threads because anything that doesn't fit in with the liberal hive mind polluting these threads instantly gets swarmed/nitpicked to death
and yeah i also dont know how you people have so much time to post on here
i saw some mormons with a table setup to play jenga in the subway
those dudes were ill and could have easily converted me
i can't be fucked to post non-hyperbole/trolly trollz in political threads because anything that doesn't fit in with the liberal hive mind polluting these threads instantly gets swarmed/nitpicked to death
and yeah i also dont know how you people have so much time to post on here
There is no left or right. You using a term liberal is hyperbole. The fact remains, mostly all this shit is opinions. You won't find 2 people on here that agree on every thing. I've used this phrase on here before. But opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one.
One of the problems on here, is some take shit way to personally. And some direct shit personally instead of debating issues.
In any case. I enjoy political threads. I like reading some other points of view. There have been a few times it actually helped me base opinions on some topics. I just ignore any troll shit.
As far as having time to post. That's relatively easy for me. If I'm working 3 hours straight on something at work, I find taking 15 min break on here helps with stress at work. Or I'm on my dinner break right now eating at my desk... Plenty of time to look for what you peoples are talking aboot.
And like someone already mentioned. A few more weeks and we can all go back to debating if rap music is dead.
Out of interest, which is the most politically neutral channel for commentary ?
This summer I was watching much of the Olympics and some soccer games without any commentary what so ever. It was really odd just hearing the actual games with fans... I wonder what watching a debate without any would be like. Not listening to anything before or after at all...
Out of interest, which is the most politically neutral channel for commentary ?
I don't think any have commentary until it's over.
Best thing to do then is turn it off.
But when I do listen to the commentary after the only network I can stand for more than 5 minutes is PBS.
It means having to listen to Brooks and Shields, but most of the other talking heads have something to say.
Tonight's debate a tedious tie, mostly, since no one is likely to pay attention to Romney's continued backtracking on his previously expressed wingnut positions.
One thing nobody could miss was Romney sweating like Nixon towards the end.
Romney did look like he was in pain on the stage and yep he was sweating pretty heavily. To be fair Nixon didn't have camera make up on and did flop sweat during his debate with Kennedy (Nixon had been sick prior to the debate).
Romney didn't look that bad, but he did not project calm confidence for sure. His rambling on various topics was painful.
Did this change anything, hardly. Romney didn't start raving about someone trying to "steal his precious bodily fluids" so he got a draw by walking out of the debate on his own two feet. Obama got some shots in but nothing that would knock Romney out of contention.
There isn't many folks who's minds you can change and now it comes down to who gets their voters to the polls. This is going to be a nail biter until they can call Ohio, again.
I am sure the Obama team is kicking themselves for that first debate performance.
I thought this was Romney's worse performance and Obama's best.
All Romney needed to do was seem like a reasonable alternative.
I have no idea if he did or didn't. I am not in the demographic that would care.
2 things that were weird to me.
Romney did not try another assault on the Benghazi issue. The conservative commentators were hot for him to do so. Perhaps Issa's exposure of CIA operatives and contacts kept him from attacking on the issue.
Romney agreed with Obama on every foreign policy issue discussed except China. On China they are both lying.
Romney delivered no prepared zingers. Or maybe he did and they sunk so fast I don't remember.
Obama was ready with 2.
The 80s are calling they want their foreign policy back. Sounds like a joke the Frazier writers would reject.
We also don't have as many horses and bayonets. Which I thought was a winner.
Obama seemed ready for Romney on every subject.
Romney seemed under prepared. He also failed to pivot to the economy often enough. Which should have been every single answer and rebuttal for him. I thought his only high point was when he repeated his list Obama economic failures.
With all that, my biggest take away was Obama's hands. Did you see his thumbs?
Op-Ed Contributor
Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
By MITT ROMNEY
Published: November 18, 2008
IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won???t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.
Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course ??? the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.
I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support ??? banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around ??? and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit???s automakers.
First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.
That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota???s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product ??? it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.
Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries ??? from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.
The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, ???Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.???
You don???t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.
The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms ??? all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.
Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies ??? especially fuel-saving designs ??? that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.
Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don???t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don???t fire the best dealers, and don???t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can???t meet.
It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research ??? on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like ??? that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.
But don???t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass ??? they bet on management and they lost.
The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.
In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.
Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year???s Republican presidential nomination.
Comments
Yeah, conversion period. Much harder to do than baptizing dead folks.
The Book of Mormon has deep connections to the "lost tribes of Israel" in which links the faith to the House of Joseph. There may be some prestige in converting a person of the Jewish faith to Mormonism but as someone with little or no direct knowledge of the faith I can not back that assertion up.
I will say that Mormons are serious about proselytizing. Whatever your feelings on faith in general or theirs in particular most Mormons I have met live their faith. That is more than I can say for a lot of other religious groups out there that I have met. It is one thing to profess a belief, quite another to live it.
+1
there are some other good threads going I just wish we could ditch the political ones. the discourse here isn't even particularly trenchant/edifying. nobody's minds are being changed. what's the point?
I thought Alice's view point was worth hearing, and made me rethink mine.
I always enjoy hearing how the Ron Paul followers view the world, though I almost always think they are miles off course.
The people I find annoying are the ones who are apologist for their party/candidates. They also tend to be the ones throwing the insults.
I mentioned before that Mormons always treat me as a long lost brother when they find out I am Jewish.
They think they are Jewish also.
They also think that Native Americans are Jewish/Mormon.
I have never met a Jew who converted to anything, except perhaps a different Jewish sect or atheism.
I have never met a JewsForJesus who was ethnically Jewish.
Actually, for me personally, constructing an argument makes me think about what I am saying (usually). Counter points that have some weight will force me to reassess. I have gone out a researched points of view I had not considered or where unaware of because of these threads. There is a give and take in a good debate. In the end I will still sit down and drink a beer with a great many of the folks here.
Even when I briefly lost my mind a few days ago, I took myself out of that discussion and gave myself a one day time out. Rock and I sorted out what happened privately (which I will say was me basically apologizing directly to him for my freak out).
The great thing about the other threads is they are still there. I really enjoyed the "Jamaica sounds the alarm over its music" thread and got to hear some music that I would have never been exposed to otherwise. I didn't directly participate because its not my style of music and poppin' in and sayin' "Great Thread Bro!" didn't seem appropriate. Should I just posted a thank you?
Back to the topic at hand, this will all be over on Nov. 6. Either Obama or Romney will be POTUS and that will be that.
With the current crowd here, I can't be arsed.
As far as your freakout, I didn't even see that shit. I know this will strike many of the older strutteurs as the very peak of irony, but I have no idea how you guys do it. Don't you have jobs?
Sadly I am still looking for full time work. I finished my accounting degree in June. I am in the process of studying for the CPA exam and I work very part time right now as a bookkeeper. To say my hours are fluid right now is understatement. Tax season (Jan 2013) will probably see me working 40-50 hours a week in pick-up work if I haven't nailed down a full time job by then.
I don't know anyone else's work situation.
those dudes were ill and could have easily converted me
i can't be fucked to post non-hyperbole/trolly trollz in political threads because anything that doesn't fit in with the liberal hive mind polluting these threads instantly gets swarmed/nitpicked to death
and yeah i also dont know how you people have so much time to post on here
Captain Mittens Vs Chief Obam
There is no left or right. You using a term liberal is hyperbole. The fact remains, mostly all this shit is opinions. You won't find 2 people on here that agree on every thing. I've used this phrase on here before. But opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one.
One of the problems on here, is some take shit way to personally. And some direct shit personally instead of debating issues.
In any case. I enjoy political threads. I like reading some other points of view. There have been a few times it actually helped me base opinions on some topics. I just ignore any troll shit.
As far as having time to post. That's relatively easy for me. If I'm working 3 hours straight on something at work, I find taking 15 min break on here helps with stress at work. Or I'm on my dinner break right now eating at my desk... Plenty of time to look for what you peoples are talking aboot.
And like someone already mentioned. A few more weeks and we can all go back to debating if rap music is dead.
My tongue is planted in my cheek with my calling for Harv's ban. I'm not for banning anyone. Not my call to make. I'll put a smiley face next time.
nnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooo.
NO.
Being called an asshole by a Stars and Bars loving Paultard is a badge of honor.
HAHA. I put that in just for you... ;)
This summer I was watching much of the Olympics and some soccer games without any commentary what so ever. It was really odd just hearing the actual games with fans... I wonder what watching a debate without any would be like. Not listening to anything before or after at all...
Might try tonight.
I don't think any have commentary until it's over.
Best thing to do then is turn it off.
But when I do listen to the commentary after the only network I can stand for more than 5 minutes is PBS.
It means having to listen to Brooks and Shields, but most of the other talking heads have something to say.
Obviously, it's MSNBC.
One thing nobody could miss was Romney sweating like Nixon towards the end.
who looks more president-y?
Romney didn't look that bad, but he did not project calm confidence for sure. His rambling on various topics was painful.
Did this change anything, hardly. Romney didn't start raving about someone trying to "steal his precious bodily fluids" so he got a draw by walking out of the debate on his own two feet. Obama got some shots in but nothing that would knock Romney out of contention.
There isn't many folks who's minds you can change and now it comes down to who gets their voters to the polls. This is going to be a nail biter until they can call Ohio, again.
I am sure the Obama team is kicking themselves for that first debate performance.
I just caught wind of this about an hour or two before you posted.
Hopefully, Ohio will not be needed to decide the election.
Fuck I loved this film. "If you steal my son, turn the page, it says I WILL FUCK YOUR WIFE!"
All Romney needed to do was seem like a reasonable alternative.
I have no idea if he did or didn't. I am not in the demographic that would care.
2 things that were weird to me.
Romney did not try another assault on the Benghazi issue. The conservative commentators were hot for him to do so. Perhaps Issa's exposure of CIA operatives and contacts kept him from attacking on the issue.
Romney agreed with Obama on every foreign policy issue discussed except China. On China they are both lying.
Romney delivered no prepared zingers. Or maybe he did and they sunk so fast I don't remember.
Obama was ready with 2.
The 80s are calling they want their foreign policy back. Sounds like a joke the Frazier writers would reject.
We also don't have as many horses and bayonets. Which I thought was a winner.
Obama seemed ready for Romney on every subject.
Romney seemed under prepared. He also failed to pivot to the economy often enough. Which should have been every single answer and rebuttal for him. I thought his only high point was when he repeated his list Obama economic failures.
With all that, my biggest take away was Obama's hands. Did you see his thumbs?
Mentioned a lot lately.
Op-Ed Contributor
Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
By MITT ROMNEY
Published: November 18, 2008
IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won???t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.
Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course ??? the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.
I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support ??? banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around ??? and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit???s automakers.
First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.
That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota???s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product ??? it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.
Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries ??? from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.
The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, ???Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.???
You don???t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.
The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms ??? all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.
Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies ??? especially fuel-saving designs ??? that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.
Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don???t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don???t fire the best dealers, and don???t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can???t meet.
It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research ??? on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like ??? that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.
But don???t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass ??? they bet on management and they lost.
The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.
In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.
Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year???s Republican presidential nomination.