Funny, when Mitt interrupted (and even told the moderator he would fire him when he became president) he was being "strong" and "assertive", but when Joe does it, it is a bad thing. Interesting. I love how the GOP can simultaneously be David and Goliath.
Funny, when Mitt interrupted (and even told the moderator he would fire him when he became president) he was being "strong" and "assertive", but when Joe does it, it is a bad thing. Interesting. I love how the GOP can simultaneously be David and Goliath.
I haven't heard any pundit that hasn't said what Joe did last night wasn't a bad look as far as his constant laughing, interruptions, etc.....indeed comparing it to Al Gore.
Funny, when Mitt interrupted (and even told the moderator he would fire him when he became president) he was being "strong" and "assertive", but when Joe does it, it is a bad thing. Interesting. I love how the GOP can simultaneously be David and Goliath.
I haven't heard any pundit that hasn't said what Joe did last night wasn't a bad look as far as his constant laughing, interruptions, etc.....indeed comparing it to Al Gore.
Other than that he won the debate hands down.
Al Gore is kind of a weak argument considering he won the popular vote...Bush had to have his brother cook the electoral votes in FL to get elected. If it was such a bad thing, how did Al still win the popular vote?
Funny, when Mitt interrupted (and even told the moderator he would fire him when he became president) he was being "strong" and "assertive", but when Joe does it, it is a bad thing. Interesting. I love how the GOP can simultaneously be David and Goliath.
I haven't heard any pundit that hasn't said what Joe did last night wasn't a bad look as far as his constant laughing, interruptions, etc.....indeed comparing it to Al Gore.
Other than that he won the debate hands down.
Al Gore is kind of a weak argument considering he won the popular vote...Bush had to have his brother cook the electoral votes in FL to get elected. If it was such a bad thing, how did Al still win the popular vote?
I don't know of anybody who pays attention to politics who doesn't acknowledge that Gore hurt himself in his debate(s).
b/w
Here's what Huffpo had to say....
At times, Biden repeatedly butted in on Ryan's answers, refusing to let Ryan finish his thought. If it were anyone other than Biden, who is treated by the press as a lovable, half-crazy uncle, he would have been labeled insufferable. Instead, he got the aggressive label.
Consumers in the US are ok with debt. If they have debt they do not change their lifestyle, instead they continue to make purchases. We will see this first had in the next three months before the holiday.
Historically, debt is followed by war. A win for Biden is step deeper into debt, closer to war, and a loss for America. The only reason I can think of consumers rallying for a Biden win is because they would rather fight a war with China than throw away their iPhone.
Consumers in the US are ok with debt. If they have debt they do not change their lifestyle, instead they continue to make purchases. We will see this first had in the next three months before the holiday.
Historically, debt is followed by war. A win for Biden is step deeper into debt, closer to war, and a loss for America. The only reason I can think of consumers rallying for a Biden win is because they would rather fight a war with China than throw away their iPhone.
Barry has lowered our debt. Just ask the CBO.
How is Mitt going to lower our fictional "growing faster than at anytime in history" debt? Do you have the specifics? Ryan didn't have any and Mitt refuses to tell the electorate how he will do it.
Actually Ryan is one of the reasons we are in debt. He voted for the policies that put us in such debt. So are you telling me that Republicans are the only people qualified to fix the disaster they themselves, the Republicans caused?
Mitt said he is going to lower taxes to increase growth (jobs). And that more people working will result in more tax revenue.
So the Bush tax cuts, that we have had for more than a decade, were put in place to create jobs...they didn't create any jobs (Obama has created more jobs in his first term despite the cuts than Bush did in 2 terms). So now the collective GOP wisdom is that they need to be lower and THAT will do the trick? I don't get it. Explain it to me.
Funny, when Mitt interrupted (and even told the moderator he would fire him when he became president) he was being "strong" and "assertive", but when Joe does it, it is a bad thing. Interesting. I love how the GOP can simultaneously be David and Goliath.
I haven't heard any pundit that hasn't said what Joe did last night wasn't a bad look as far as his constant laughing, interruptions, etc.....indeed comparing it to Al Gore.
Other than that he won the debate hands down.
Al Gore is kind of a weak argument considering he won the popular vote...Bush had to have his brother cook the electoral votes in FL to get elected. If it was such a bad thing, how did Al still win the popular vote?
I don't know of anybody who pays attention to politics who doesn't acknowledge that Gore hurt himself in his debate(s).
b/w
Here's what Huffpo had to say....
At times, Biden repeatedly butted in on Ryan's answers, refusing to let Ryan finish his thought. If it were anyone other than Biden, who is treated by the press as a lovable, half-crazy uncle, he would have been labeled insufferable. Instead, he got the aggressive label.
That quote from Huffpo says the opposite of the point you're trying to make. It says he didn't hurt himself. So that's one pundit who doesn't say what you said all the pundits said.
I know where all the pundits were crying about "rude Biden" - Fox News. And that's because Biden won the debate.
The Gore/Biden comparison is a poor one because Gore wasn't criticized for laughing, he was criticized for petulant sighing and being a bore. Biden was good-humored and aggressive, and Ryan had a hard time dealing with it.
The foreign policy sections were especially weak for Ryan, and the part where he suggested he'd like to revisit privatizing Social Security was a scream. Good luck with that one, Paulie.
The Huffpo article stated that the MEDIA gave him a pass because he is treated like a half crazy uncle and would otherwise be considered insufferable. There is no question that the public saw what he did as a negative, and possibly insufferable if they don't give him the same pass the media does......if he hadn't acted the clown and just schooled Ryan with substance NO ONE would be saying anything negative about Biden today and Ryan would have just looked like he was out of his league as I predicted yesterday.
Biden won the debate...he could have presented himself better.....no different than Romney last week.
The talk SHOULD be about how Romney and Ryan got taken down with facts and substance....instead the talk is about Obama being lethargic and Biden being rude.
If you think that Biden was better off acting the way he did we'll have to agree to disagree.
Mitt said he is going to lower taxes to increase growth (jobs). And that more people working will result in more tax revenue.
So the Bush tax cuts, that we have had for more than a decade, were put in place to create jobs...they didn't create any jobs (Obama has created more jobs in his first term despite the cuts than Bush did in 2 terms). So now the collective GOP wisdom is that they need to be lower and THAT will do the trick? I don't get it. Explain it to me.
There is a saying in the horse racing industry...
How do you make a small fortune in the horse racing industry?
Start with a large one.
That is the point with the solar energy 90 billion investment. Where is the large portion of jobs? There is only a small portion. I think Ryan did a good job lastnight saying, "this is not what a reform looks like."
Historically, debt is followed by war. A win for Biden is step deeper into debt, closer to war, and a loss for America. The only reason I can think of consumers rallying for a Biden win is because they would rather fight a war with China than throw away their iPhone.
The talk SHOULD be about how Romney and Ryan got taken down with facts and substance.
Well, yeah, but that hasn't been the subject of media discussion for decades now. It's purely about who was "mean," who "looked presidential," who was "aggressive," and, in the curious case of Sarah Palin, who gave right-wing pundits "starbursts." Facts are, at best, considered a benign distraction in political discourse.
The talk SHOULD be about how Romney and Ryan got taken down with facts and substance.
Well, yeah, but that hasn't been the subject of media discussion for decades now. It's purely about who was "mean," who "looked presidential," who was "aggressive," and, in the curious case of Sarah Palin, who gave right-wing pundits "starbursts." Facts are, at best, considered a benign distraction in political discourse.
If that is how the game is measured you need to play accordingly...don't you think?
The Huffpo article stated that the MEDIA gave him a pass because he is treated like a half crazy uncle and would otherwise be considered insufferable. There is no question that the public saw what he did as a negative, and possibly insufferable if they don't give him the same pass the media does......if he hadn't acted the clown and just schooled Ryan with substance NO ONE would be saying anything negative about Biden today and Ryan would have just looked like he was out of his league as I predicted yesterday.
Biden won the debate...he could have presented himself better.....no different than Romney last week.
The talk SHOULD be about how Romney and Ryan got taken down with facts and substance....instead the talk is about Obama being lethargic and Biden being rude.
If you think that Biden was better off acting the way he did we'll have to agree to disagree.
The talk on the right-wing is how Biden was rude. They're not talking about Ryan at all.
I like how you say "there is no question that the public saw what he did as a negative" because you think your own opinion equals = the public. Of course there's a question, since many people liked what he did. If he'd sat there and "just schooled Ryan with substance" you and the rest of the conservatives would have said he was lifeless and flat, just like you did to Obama.
If Biden was "no different than Romney last week" then why your double standard? Why do you insist "all of the pundits" agree with you when that's clearly not the case? You know who agrees with you? Michael Medved, who is the ultimate right-wing hack. Other pundits, not so much:
Joe Klein scores the debate:
Joe Biden won ??? certainly on the substance, although he lost a bit on the body language
Fallows also gives Biden the win:
Whereas Joe Biden, who put on the best performance of his long career, supplied the only good news his team has had in six days (since last Friday's jobs report). Even though, yes, he could have smiled less.
Ponnuru's related point:
I think Biden???s manner is the story of the debate, and the public reaction to it will end up determining who won. I thought he was fine, at first: feisty, ready to mix it up, happy to be there, unlike President Barack Obama last week in Denver. Pretty soon, though, the yelling, the giggling, and the constant interruptions became unpleasant.
Kevin Drum adds:
The Fox News crowd is going absolutely nuts over Biden's smiling and laughing. I guess I don't blame them, really. I probably would too if I were them. Partly this is because I think Biden overdid things on this score, but mostly because it's a lot easier than trying to take on the substance of the debate, where Biden pretty clearly got the better of Ryan.
Tomasky piles on Yes, Biden interrupted too much
Friedersdorf declares Ryan unfit for high office:
. I didn't quite realize how awful Ryan's performance was until I read the transcript of the debate. Biden did smile too much. It distracted me from Ryan's apparent unfitness to be commander-in-chief.
And as far as a double standard.....it's simply that, from BOTH sides, the talking point of Debate #1 wasn't how rude Romney was, it was how meek Obama appeared to be.
Romney was rude and interruptive in his debate and that's why I said it was similar to Biden's performance last night.
No one is arguing who won the debate, some folks just don't want to recognize the reality that, like many people on your link commented, Biden should not have been so over the top.....he didn't need to be.
No one is arguing who won the debate, some folks just don't want to recognize the reality that, like many people on your link commented, Biden should not have been so over the top.....he didn't need to be.
I don't know how Biden came across compared to previous debates, I haven't seen one. Maybe he's always this way, maybe not.. ?
I do think his words and points would have resonated far better and won more votes if presented with a different demeanor though.
Had it been that way, I think the media would be saying he was clearly the victor on all fronts in this debate.
And as far as a double standard.....it's simply that, from BOTH sides, the talking point of Debate #1 wasn't how rude Romney was, it was how meek Obama appeared to be.
Romney was rude and interruptive in his debate and that's why I said it was similar to Biden's performance last night.
No one is arguing who won the debate, some folks just don't want to recognize the reality that, like many people on your link commented, Biden should not have been so over the top.....he didn't need to be.
I thought the same thing. He could have been a bit more composed and that way looked and actually been more in control. Given Ryan some more line to hang himself with and use the time to get his own rhetorics in shape before responding.
On the other hand it's gotta be hard for a man his age to sit still when some kid is talking a load of crap. At least he didn't hit him upside the head and tell him to get off his lawn.
And as far as a double standard.....it's simply that, from BOTH sides, the talking point of Debate #1 wasn't how rude Romney was, it was how meek Obama appeared to be.
Romney was rude and interruptive in his debate and that's why I said it was similar to Biden's performance last night.
No one is arguing who won the debate, some folks just don't want to recognize the reality that, like many people on your link commented, Biden should not have been so over the top.....he didn't need to be.
I thought the same thing. He could have been a bit more composed and that way looked and actually been more in control. Given Ryan some more line to hang himself with and use the time to get his own rhetorics in shape before responding.
On the other hand it's gotta be hard for a man his age to sit still when some kid is talking a load of crap. At least he didn't hit him upside the head and tell him to get off his lawn.
I saw the older man asking the younger man to take more responsibility. The younger man said that he will in his own way.
And as far as a double standard.....it's simply that, from BOTH sides, the talking point of Debate #1 wasn't how rude Romney was, it was how meek Obama appeared to be.
Romney was rude and interruptive in his debate and that's why I said it was similar to Biden's performance last night.
No one is arguing who won the debate, some folks just don't want to recognize the reality that, like many people on your link commented, Biden should not have been so over the top.....he didn't need to be.
I heard 2 10 minutes segments in the car, but the rest of the time I had to listen to the O's beat NY. 3hrs to the next game.
On the radio Biden's laughter and interruptions sounded like the only reasonable response to Ryan's whining.
Also, the moderator seemed far more competent and involved.
From what I hear you, and the rest say, the question is:
Why is Biden criticized for being rude and over the top with a Jr Representative and Romney praised for being rude and over the top with the Commander in Chief?
My guess for the reason is that the Rs are winning the spin war.
In the end I have to agree with Rock that the VP debate will not move the election very much. It really only accomplished two things;
1) It stopped the democratic bed wetting about the POTUS's lackluster debate performance last week.
2) It has stabilized the news cycle so that Obama can make his case next week in round 2 of the presidential debates.
Obama has to produce if he want's to keep winning this thing.
How I felt personally about the VP debate?
Biden ate Ryan's lunch much like I expected. I was also completely unsurprised that Ryan left multiple opportunities to humanize himself on the table. Did Ryan shit the bed? Nope. It wasn't a disaster for the republicans but it didn't really do much for them either.
BTW, Jim Lehrer should take note, Martha gave a master class on how to run a debate. She was the real winner last night.
And as far as a double standard.....it's simply that, from BOTH sides, the talking point of Debate #1 wasn't how rude Romney was, it was how meek Obama appeared to be.
Romney was rude and interruptive in his debate and that's why I said it was similar to Biden's performance last night.
No one is arguing who won the debate, some folks just don't want to recognize the reality that, like many people on your link commented, Biden should not have been so over the top.....he didn't need to be.
But you took the extreme positions that "all of the pundits" agreed with you and that there was "no question" but that the public would agree with you.
All pundits don't agree, and how the public will react is very much an open question.
To people who think Biden would have been better off reciting facts with the demeanor of a funeral director, I can just say that the story of this debate is mostly Biden and very little Ryan, even among Ryan supporters.
Dude, there is not a pundit on earth that agrees with ME about anything...they don't know me or my opinions. What I did say was all the pundits I heard were saying Biden was unnecessarily over the top....you countered with a link that showed the MAJORITY of the pundits were saying that.
Talk about taking an extreme position, the only two options is to be over the top or a funeral director....I suggest there is something between the two that would be preferable.
Your modus operandi is to insult, look down upon and act superior to anyone who doesn't agree with you so I would expect you to applaud Biden's performance....but just about everyone who's seen your act hates it and Biden needs to avoid being in the same class as MLJ.
Comments
I haven't heard any pundit that hasn't said what Joe did last night wasn't a bad look as far as his constant laughing, interruptions, etc.....indeed comparing it to Al Gore.
Other than that he won the debate hands down.
Al Gore is kind of a weak argument considering he won the popular vote...Bush had to have his brother cook the electoral votes in FL to get elected. If it was such a bad thing, how did Al still win the popular vote?
I don't know of anybody who pays attention to politics who doesn't acknowledge that Gore hurt himself in his debate(s).
b/w
Here's what Huffpo had to say....
At times, Biden repeatedly butted in on Ryan's answers, refusing to let Ryan finish his thought. If it were anyone other than Biden, who is treated by the press as a lovable, half-crazy uncle, he would have been labeled insufferable. Instead, he got the aggressive label.
Historically, debt is followed by war. A win for Biden is step deeper into debt, closer to war, and a loss for America. The only reason I can think of consumers rallying for a Biden win is because they would rather fight a war with China than throw away their iPhone.
Barry has lowered our debt. Just ask the CBO.
How is Mitt going to lower our fictional "growing faster than at anytime in history" debt? Do you have the specifics? Ryan didn't have any and Mitt refuses to tell the electorate how he will do it.
Actually Ryan is one of the reasons we are in debt. He voted for the policies that put us in such debt. So are you telling me that Republicans are the only people qualified to fix the disaster they themselves, the Republicans caused?
So the Bush tax cuts, that we have had for more than a decade, were put in place to create jobs...they didn't create any jobs (Obama has created more jobs in his first term despite the cuts than Bush did in 2 terms). So now the collective GOP wisdom is that they need to be lower and THAT will do the trick? I don't get it. Explain it to me.
The Huffpo article stated that the MEDIA gave him a pass because he is treated like a half crazy uncle and would otherwise be considered insufferable. There is no question that the public saw what he did as a negative, and possibly insufferable if they don't give him the same pass the media does......if he hadn't acted the clown and just schooled Ryan with substance NO ONE would be saying anything negative about Biden today and Ryan would have just looked like he was out of his league as I predicted yesterday.
Biden won the debate...he could have presented himself better.....no different than Romney last week.
The talk SHOULD be about how Romney and Ryan got taken down with facts and substance....instead the talk is about Obama being lethargic and Biden being rude.
If you think that Biden was better off acting the way he did we'll have to agree to disagree.
There is a saying in the horse racing industry...
How do you make a small fortune in the horse racing industry?
Start with a large one.
That is the point with the solar energy 90 billion investment. Where is the large portion of jobs? There is only a small portion. I think Ryan did a good job lastnight saying, "this is not what a reform looks like."
Well, yeah, but that hasn't been the subject of media discussion for decades now. It's purely about who was "mean," who "looked presidential," who was "aggressive," and, in the curious case of Sarah Palin, who gave right-wing pundits "starbursts." Facts are, at best, considered a benign distraction in political discourse.
Imagine these house-prices but no mortgages. Has to be credit available. Has to be debt.
If that is how the game is measured you need to play accordingly...don't you think?
From YOUR link......and exactly what I am saying.
Joe Klein scores the debate:
Joe Biden won ??? certainly on the substance, although he lost a bit on the body language
Fallows also gives Biden the win:
Whereas Joe Biden, who put on the best performance of his long career, supplied the only good news his team has had in six days (since last Friday's jobs report). Even though, yes, he could have smiled less.
Ponnuru's related point:
I think Biden???s manner is the story of the debate, and the public reaction to it will end up determining who won. I thought he was fine, at first: feisty, ready to mix it up, happy to be there, unlike President Barack Obama last week in Denver. Pretty soon, though, the yelling, the giggling, and the constant interruptions became unpleasant.
Kevin Drum adds:
The Fox News crowd is going absolutely nuts over Biden's smiling and laughing. I guess I don't blame them, really. I probably would too if I were them. Partly this is because I think Biden overdid things on this score, but mostly because it's a lot easier than trying to take on the substance of the debate, where Biden pretty clearly got the better of Ryan.
Tomasky piles on
Yes, Biden interrupted too much
Friedersdorf declares Ryan unfit for high office:
. I didn't quite realize how awful Ryan's performance was until I read the transcript of the debate. Biden did smile too much. It distracted me from Ryan's apparent unfitness to be commander-in-chief.
Romney was rude and interruptive in his debate and that's why I said it was similar to Biden's performance last night.
No one is arguing who won the debate, some folks just don't want to recognize the reality that, like many people on your link commented, Biden should not have been so over the top.....he didn't need to be.
I don't know how Biden came across compared to previous debates, I haven't seen one. Maybe he's always this way, maybe not.. ?
I do think his words and points would have resonated far better and won more votes if presented with a different demeanor though.
Had it been that way, I think the media would be saying he was clearly the victor on all fronts in this debate.
I thought the same thing. He could have been a bit more composed and that way looked and actually been more in control. Given Ryan some more line to hang himself with and use the time to get his own rhetorics in shape before responding.
On the other hand it's gotta be hard for a man his age to sit still when some kid is talking a load of crap. At least he didn't hit him upside the head and tell him to get off his lawn.
I saw the older man asking the younger man to take more responsibility. The younger man said that he will in his own way.
thank god high house costs in america are only an issue in San Fran. the rest of the country has avoided the plague of surging real estate values.
I heard 2 10 minutes segments in the car, but the rest of the time I had to listen to the O's beat NY. 3hrs to the next game.
On the radio Biden's laughter and interruptions sounded like the only reasonable response to Ryan's whining.
Also, the moderator seemed far more competent and involved.
From what I hear you, and the rest say, the question is:
Why is Biden criticized for being rude and over the top with a Jr Representative and Romney praised for being rude and over the top with the Commander in Chief?
My guess for the reason is that the Rs are winning the spin war.
there's room for one more, three's never a crowd. ha!
live & on stage when you're (vice) president
1) It stopped the democratic bed wetting about the POTUS's lackluster debate performance last week.
2) It has stabilized the news cycle so that Obama can make his case next week in round 2 of the presidential debates.
Obama has to produce if he want's to keep winning this thing.
How I felt personally about the VP debate?
Biden ate Ryan's lunch much like I expected. I was also completely unsurprised that Ryan left multiple opportunities to humanize himself on the table. Did Ryan shit the bed? Nope. It wasn't a disaster for the republicans but it didn't really do much for them either.
BTW, Jim Lehrer should take note, Martha gave a master class on how to run a debate. She was the real winner last night.
Dude, there is not a pundit on earth that agrees with ME about anything...they don't know me or my opinions. What I did say was all the pundits I heard were saying Biden was unnecessarily over the top....you countered with a link that showed the MAJORITY of the pundits were saying that.
Talk about taking an extreme position, the only two options is to be over the top or a funeral director....I suggest there is something between the two that would be preferable.
Your modus operandi is to insult, look down upon and act superior to anyone who doesn't agree with you so I would expect you to applaud Biden's performance....but just about everyone who's seen your act hates it and Biden needs to avoid being in the same class as MLJ.