The keys to building a good team in the NBA are many. You have to have a superstar that you can go to in the crunch and be confident he'll deliver. A guy who makes his team mates reach their highest potential. You need to find very good players whose strengths fit in well with the superstar. You need a second option on offense who is above average and will also take the ball when it counts. You need solid role players who have good fundamentals, don't make many mistakes and play defense and you need a solid bench. Then they need to mesh, to perform at their top level while complimenting their team mates.
And that is why a team built around Melo will never win. You can't mesh with Melo, you have to play HIS game and play the roles that he dictates. If you have played ball on almost any level you have seen a guy like this. Talented and probably the best player on the court, but to play with him is a chore. You second guess every shot you take because he might scowl and whine that he had a better shot. A guy you feel obligated to pass to even when there is a better option. A guy who will run another player off the team if he doesn't fit his self centered game. A guy who has his team mates walking on eggshells rather than performing at their highest potential level. And to be that big a team killer at the professional level is pretty impressive.
He's Bob McAdoo. If he wins a title it will be as a nice spare part in his declining years.
At this point Melo isn't the only problem.
Yes, he's only a great point producer, but the guys around him are garbage.
Pointing the fingers at Melo and Woodson are the armchair coach way out.
The Knicks have no maneuverability in terms of caps space and trade bait. And thats a management issue.
Durant doesn't have an all around game like LeBron yet management had been able to plug in players around him so they can win.
Melo has no Westbrook. LeBoring has Wade, Bosh, and a bunch of good players.
OK...one last try.
Anyone and everyone you put around Melo BECOME garbage
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Rockadelic said:
batmon said:
At this point Melo isn't the only problem.
Yes, he's only a great point producer, but the guys around him are garbage.
Pointing the fingers at Melo and Woodson are the armchair coach way out.
The Knicks have no maneuverability in terms of caps space and trade bait. And thats a management issue.
Durant doesn't have an all around game like LeBron yet management had been able to plug in players around him so they can win.
Melo has no Westbrook. LeBoring has Wade, Bosh, and a bunch of good players.
OK...one last try.
Anyone and everyone you put around Melo BECOME garbage
both this post and your previous one. It's hard to play with a gunner both on organized AND pickup ball teams. It's hard to get shooting rhythm without touches. I couldn't imagine the frustration of playing with Melo (and even Kobe to a lesser extent). They are both HORRIBLY inefficient scorers who need about 40 attempts to score 30 points. Can anyone say Dominique Wilkins? :real_headz:
One of the best things you can do in basketball is take your opponent out of their game.
b/w
One of the worst things you can do in basketball is take your team mates out of their game
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Rockadelic said:
One of the best things you can do in basketball is take your opponent out of their game.
b/w
One of the worst things you can do in basketball is take your team mates out of their game
Hey Rock,
Back in the Stone Age (pre And-1 era), we were taught to take the best shot possible (by using ball movement), play good defense (communicate with teammates, move your feet, etc.), and rebound on both ends. Good basketball is not brain surgery!!!
Back in the 60's the NBA got boring and they lost fans because a fundamentally sound team dominated. That is why the ABA started, to attract people into flash and gimmicky excitement....the red, white and blue ball....the 3 point shot and the dunking. They even modified the "traveling" rule to facilitate the spectacular shot. It was a league of highlight reel material and the NBA knew they needed that to build their brand. The ABA (non)traveling rule was pretty much adopted by the NBA(I call it the Dr. J rule) when they merged.....then came the dunk contest, which I love, and that attracted a different breed of fan....if it was all about winning rings the Spurs would have considerably more fans than they do. Tim Duncan and Company lack swagger which to the 2013 NBA fan model is important.
The NBA cultivated this kind of fan base and it was a great business decision on their part.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Rockadelic said:
Stacks,
Back in the 60's the NBA got boring and they lost fans because a fundamentally sound team dominated. That is why the ABA started, to attract people into flash and gimmicky excitement....the red, white and blue ball....the 3 point shot and the dunking. They even modified the "traveling" rule to facilitate the spectacular shot. It was a league of highlight reel material and the NBA knew they needed that to build their brand. The ABA (non)traveling rule was pretty much adopted by the NBA(I call it the Dr. J rule) when they merged.....then came the dunk contest, which I love, and that attracted a different breed of fan....if it was all about winning rings the Spurs would have considerably more fans than they do. Tim Duncan and Company lack swagger which to the 2013 NBA fan model is important.
The NBA cultivated this kind of fan base and it was a great business decision on their part.
Touche, Sir Rock. It reminds me of boxing, what happened to the jab, footwork, and defensive discipline? Now, all the guys do is go for knockouts to excite the crowd, but take unnecessary punishment in the process. The sweet science has taken the same route as the NBA.
Back in the 60's the NBA got boring and they lost fans because a fundamentally sound team dominated. That is why the ABA started, to attract people into flash and gimmicky excitement....the red, white and blue ball....the 3 point shot and the dunking. They even modified the "traveling" rule to facilitate the spectacular shot. It was a league of highlight reel material and the NBA knew they needed that to build their brand. The ABA (non)traveling rule was pretty much adopted by the NBA(I call it the Dr. J rule) when they merged.....then came the dunk contest, which I love, and that attracted a different breed of fan....if it was all about winning rings the Spurs would have considerably more fans than they do. Tim Duncan and Company lack swagger which to the 2013 NBA fan model is important.
The NBA cultivated this kind of fan base and it was a great business decision on their part.
Mostly this is the Angry White Guy view of the NBA.
The NFL and MLB also took steps during the same time period to open up offensive opportunities, but how often do observers discuss such changes with words like "swagger" or "flash"?
Not very often.
Whenever you hear the term "fundamentally sound" being applied to basketball you have to wonder if you're entering the Adolph Rupp Zone. OMG, the Negroes and their dunking! Can't this sport be made more white friendly, fer Gawd's sake?
Back in the 60's the NBA got boring and they lost fans because a fundamentally sound team dominated. That is why the ABA started, to attract people into flash and gimmicky excitement....the red, white and blue ball....the 3 point shot and the dunking. They even modified the "traveling" rule to facilitate the spectacular shot. It was a league of highlight reel material and the NBA knew they needed that to build their brand. The ABA (non)traveling rule was pretty much adopted by the NBA(I call it the Dr. J rule) when they merged.....then came the dunk contest, which I love, and that attracted a different breed of fan....if it was all about winning rings the Spurs would have considerably more fans than they do. Tim Duncan and Company lack swagger which to the 2013 NBA fan model is important.
The NBA cultivated this kind of fan base and it was a great business decision on their part.
Mostly this is the Angry White Guy view of the NBA.
The NFL and MLB also took steps during the same time period to open up offensive opportunities, but how often do observers discuss such changes with words like "swagger" or "flash"?
Not very often.
Whenever you hear the term "fundamentally sound" being applied to basketball you have to wonder if you're entering the Adolph Rupp Zone. OMG, the Negroes and their dunking! Can't this sport be made more white friendly, fer Gawd's sake?
I???m not angry that the NBA has evolved the way it has. I enjoy the dunk contest and highlight reel plays as much as anyone. But to not recognize the direction the league has taken post ABA merger and beyond is just ignorant. In years when Tim Duncan lead his team to a ring(s) he was never in the Top 15 jersey sales and was outsold by the likes of Latrell Sprewell. Market size be damned, even Carmelo and Iverson while at Denver were more popular with the NBA fan base than Duncan who is arguably one of the Top 5 players of the last 15 years. The great Bill Russell Celtic teams of the 50???s & 60???s would bore fans today just like the Spurs do with their workman-like fundamental based play. Last time I looked Russell, KC Jones, Satch Sanders, Sam Jones, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Robert Horry were all black so your claim that I yearn for a ???whiter??? game is bogus and offensive. Good fundamental play does not equal white and that claim itself might even be racist.
The comparison of MLB and NFL to the NBA is a false equivalency and here is why. The term swagger is prevalent in Hip Hop and its related pop culture communities. The NBA is the sport most closely related to these communities and therefore the concept of ???swagger??? is much more popular in the NBA than the NFL and MLB combined. Don???t believe this? Try reading a few issues of Slam magazine and then show me something similar in those other two sports. Rappers don???t own professional baseball or football teams.
Basketball is a team sport yet the new model fan is more apt to follow players rather than teams with a couple of exceptions. It???s become a league whose fans focus as much on swag and fashion as they do on the game itself. A game that creates lists of which players have the most and least swag (see below) with Tim Duncan dominating the latter in every such list I could find. And even lists of which teams have the most swagger, on which the 4 time champion Spurs never appear. This is the NBA 2013 and I???m not mad at it, I just recognize where it was and where it is today.
All of the Champions of since the ABA have won w/ team play.
Only Iverson's Philly team (that I can recall) went to the Finals w/ am Elite scorer and a bunch of role players that fed into Larry Brown's game plan.
I agree w/ the games change, and now w/ the offense being geared towards non-contact guard play, the NBA is continuing the plan for higher scores and isolation(individual) ball.
But dudes still talking about Melo like he's a selfish player haven't been watching the Knicks enough.
The "wave my teammates out of the way" shit has faded. Last year when they went on that late season run, it was Melo at the four spout and the perimeter shooters were hitting their shots along with better ball movement. He hasn't reverted to the selfish Melo for a minute. The roster changed in the offseason. The veterans left (Sheed, Kurt Thomas, Kidd, Camby) and JR Smith & Felton came into this season off their game. And the shooters are gone....the white boy and the dread dude. Its not just Melo's fault.
Back in the 60's the NBA got boring and they lost fans because a fundamentally sound team dominated. That is why the ABA started, to attract people into flash and gimmicky excitement....the red, white and blue ball....the 3 point shot and the dunking. They even modified the "traveling" rule to facilitate the spectacular shot. It was a league of highlight reel material and the NBA knew they needed that to build their brand. The ABA (non)traveling rule was pretty much adopted by the NBA(I call it the Dr. J rule) when they merged.....then came the dunk contest, which I love, and that attracted a different breed of fan....if it was all about winning rings the Spurs would have considerably more fans than they do. Tim Duncan and Company lack swagger which to the 2013 NBA fan model is important.
The NBA cultivated this kind of fan base and it was a great business decision on their part.
Touche, Sir Rock. It reminds me of boxing, what happened to the jab, footwork, and defensive discipline? Now, all the guys do is go for knockouts to excite the crowd, but take unnecessary punishment in the process. The sweet science has taken the same route as the NBA.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Even worse P....boring ass boxing has gone by the wayside for the more exciting MMA / UFC.
But dudes still talking about Melo like he's a selfish player haven't been watching the Knicks enough.
The "wave my teammates out of the way" shit has faded. Last year when they went on that late season run, it was Melo at the four spout and the perimeter shooters were hitting their shots along with better ball movement. He hasn't reverted to the selfish Melo for a minute. The roster changed in the offseason. The veterans left (Sheed, Kurt Thomas, Kidd, Camby) and JR Smith & Felton came into this season off their game. And the shooters are gone....the white boy and the dread dude. Its not just Melo's fault.
this, exactly. all you guys are entitled to your opinions but don't front like you've actually watched the games. Unfortunately, I get to watch my fair share being here in NYC. And I get to commiserate every day with lifelong Knicks fans who have a lot more to go on than "yo, Melo's a ball hog, yo. what happened to FUNDAMENTALS"
Look at last year's Knick squad. He made his teammates worse? How? Jason Kidd, running on fumes since preseason? JR Smith getting best sixth man? (roll that one around in your head for a minute). Steve Novak, out there looking like a paler Ed Norton, dropping threes like the hoop was the size of a kiddie pool? Raymond Felton looking, I dunno, somewhat competent and like he deserves to be playing on this side of the Atlantic? A 37 year old Argentine rookie? And none of them playing much defense? They went to the second round, and even had a shot there. What more could they have done? I don't really see how Carmelo is the reason they *didn't* win the championship. Carmelo's the only reason they made the playoffs!
If you ask me, Amare was a bad acquisition, Carmelo was a bad acquisition (at least in the way it was done - they didn't need to give up SHIT) and the players they put around him *with the significant exception of Tyson Chandler* were all overachieving losers or retirees. Just like Iverson in his day, Melo is the one dude armchair analysts and FUNDAMENTALS! types like to rag on. But reading this thread, it's just the same strawman from 4-5 years ago and has little if any relevance to the last two NYK seasons.
But dudes still talking about Melo like he's a selfish player haven't been watching the Knicks enough.
The "wave my teammates out of the way" shit has faded. Last year when they went on that late season run, it was Melo at the four spout and the perimeter shooters were hitting their shots along with better ball movement. He hasn't reverted to the selfish Melo for a minute. The roster changed in the offseason. The veterans left (Sheed, Kurt Thomas, Kidd, Camby) and JR Smith & Felton came into this season off their game. And the shooters are gone....the white boy and the dread dude. Its not just Melo's fault.
this, exactly. all you guys are entitled to your opinions but don't front like you've actually watched the games. Unfortunately, I get to watch my fair share being here in NYC. And I get to commiserate every day with lifelong Knicks fans who have a lot more to go on than "yo, Melo's a ball hog, yo. what happened to FUNDAMENTALS"
Look at last year's Knick squad. He made his teammates worse? How? Jason Kidd, running on fumes since preseason? JR Smith getting best sixth man? (roll that one around in your head for a minute). Steve Novak, out there looking like a paler Ed Norton, dropping threes like the hoop was the size of a kiddie pool? Raymond Felton looking, I dunno, somewhat competent and like he deserves to be playing on this side of the Atlantic? A 37 year old Argentine rookie? And none of them playing much defense? They went to the second round, and even had a shot there. What more could they have done? I don't really see how Carmelo is the reason they *didn't* win the championship. Carmelo's the only reason they made the playoffs!
If you ask me, Amare was a bad acquisition, Carmelo was a bad acquisition (at least in the way it was done - they didn't need to give up SHIT) and the players they put around him *with the significant exception of Tyson Chandler* were all overachieving losers or retirees. Just like Iverson in his day, Melo is the one dude armchair analysts and FUNDAMENTALS! types like to rag on. But reading this thread, it's just the same strawman from 4-5 years ago and has little if any relevance to the last two NYK seasons.
I'm watching the games...we're just seeing two different things. Read the below articles, written in 2013 by dudes who watch and report on basketball for a living. They are seeing the same Melo I am. Kidd and Tyson were one year removed from winning a championship with a team that started JJ Barea! Of the top-10 scorers in the NBA, Anthony had the highest usage rate (35.6), but also averaged the least assists and the least steals. Anthony has NEVER placed in the top 10 for rebounding, assists, steals, blocks or any shooting percentages and these are the things that make your team better.
Maybe all these guys are uninformed armchair coaches but me thinks not.
Scroll down and see why Scaletta thinks Carmelo will never win......here's an excerpt. Carmelo Anthony Is Carmelo Anthony
The second issue that Anthony faces is that he is Carmelo Anthony. He has a style of play that makes the players around him worse and less productive.
Is it coincidental that Stoudemire and Smith had their best games while he was out?
Anthony loves to take the ball in isolation, which takes other players out of the game. It stops ball movement and adversely impacts the team. He ran a ridiculous 612 isolation plays last year and used another 239 plays as the ball-handler in the pick-and-roll.
10 Reasons Why Carmelo Will Never Win A Championship
Number #1- SELFISH
Carmelo???s lack of patience forced the Knicks to gut the team to attain his services. Now he is the focal point of the offense. Yet his desire to have the ball whenever and however he wants has affected the offense as they have gotten away from the passing game that contributed to their 20-6 start. He also was responsible for the departure of Jeremy Lin as Carmelo refusal to share the spotlight with ???Linsanity.???
Carmelo???s Olympic experience where he shared a court with LeBron James and Dwayne Wade should have been a great learning experience on how top athletes prepare to win not just games but championships. Carmelo has forgotten and gone back to trying to win games by himself.
The Kevin Garnett ???Carmelo situation was the bright light that went off in all Carmelo???s opponents who realized that they could get him to react with a certain kind of physical and verbal game.
Scoring is instinctive, but thinking is imperative. The ability to get the ball out when double teamed to an open teammate, passing and setting up others, and not driving one on three when the defenders see you coming the whole way. Anthony did these things earlier but they have been in short supply since.
This area of the game is something that depends on will. Anthony was relentless on the boards especially the defensive end. It was the most improved aspect of his game. It helped his team tremendously that he could provide skills that did not always include scoring. Now you hardly see him rip defensive rebounds from the bigger guys.
This not only includes one on one but also anticipation. The increased amount of allyoop dunks and missed assignments due to lack of hustle and smarts is more obvious when Carmelo sits and the bench leads rallies with their defense.
Anthony is a small forward playing the power forward position to allow Carmelo to use his quickness to take advantage of those matchups. The point well taken until Carmelo insists on running up the court as a point forward to run the offense, which usually ends with the ball going to the post to him anyway. This is why you have guards to run the point. It has also aggravated that knee which is in bad shape currently.
Looking at the example that Tyson Chandler and Rasheed Wallace provided to younger teammates through constant communication by pointing out strengths and weaknesses was lost when Wallace went down to injury. Now you have Carmelo barking at teammates to get him the ball and undressing them when they don???t.
Carmelo Anthony has now left two games in two weeks with an apparent knee injury. Is it a coincidence that he walked off the court when the team was down by over twenty? Frustration not only looks bad on your leader but it spreads. When injured he walked off the court, past his bench and straight to the locker. No one congratulated or acknowledged him. Anthony quits when things don???t go his way and now the mental toughness which was improved earlier this year along with the improved conditioning has gone for naught.
that is an excellent use of google but you didn't respond to my central point, that your suggestion that Melo makes his teammates worse is completely belied by the Knicks' last season. I can appreciate that JJ Barea started on the Mavs but they also had this dude called Dirk and another guy that goes by JET and the list goes on. Is Melo better than Nowitsky? Are they even on the same level? Does anyone actually think that?
Also, one year for Kidd at this point is like the last 20,000 miles on a care you've had since 1991. The guy was playing pro ball when I was still in high school, some twenty years ago.
that is an excellent use of google but you didn't respond to my central point, that your suggestion that Melo makes his teammates worse is completely belied by the Knicks' last season. I can appreciate that JJ Barea started on the Mavs but they also had this dude called Dirk and another guy that goes by JET and the list goes on. Is Melo better than Nowitsky? Are they even on the same level? Does anyone actually think that?
Also, one year for Kidd at this point is like the last 20,000 miles on a care you've had since 1991. The guy was playing pro ball when I was still in high school, some twenty years ago.
The rest is tl;dr
Dude....you question whether or not I'm up to speed and qualified to make the statements I have, so I defer to "experts" who come to the same conclusion. (Yeah, I used Google because they all turned down my request to go to Good Records and tell you in person) ALL of these links discuss the 2012-2013 season and why Melo makes his team worse not better. Not sure what it will take for you to see this but your unwillingness to read the above tells me you're not interested in any view but your own. If you are, just read Vasquez' Top Ten above.....he says it better than I could and he watched more Knick games than possibly both of us.
I have read plenty of articles to that effect, probably including some of the ones you posted, but I don't have time to ingest all that shit again in order to win on the internet. My problem with that argument is that it is some perfect world shit. My original point was that Melo is doing the best he can with a totally fucked situation that only exists because of Knicks management. I don't know if Melo will ever lead a championship team, and have not argued that anywhere. I don't know how Melo could have made his team even better than it actually was, which was pretty good! What exactly was he supposed to be getting out of those dudes? They were all already playing above their head (and many said they were doing it for Melo). The Knicks outperformed expectations last year, and yet somehow people are mad at Melo because... they didn't get past the (now-favorite to win the 'chip) Pacers? And if you look at the complete and utter travesty unfolding in MSG night after night this season, there is no way in hell you can blame Carmelo Anthony. That is my only point. I mean shit, I'm a Warriors fan, I don't even give a shit. I just don't dig the slander, when the real issue is not Melo but Dolan. Here's a hypothetical: imagine if Dolan had not dealt all his young talent and draft picks... and signed Melo as a free agent in the offseason like Melo was saying he would do anyway. And then imagine that they were able to use some of that trade bait to land a slightly better or younger PG, maybe some bench support... I'll tell you what, they wouldn't have done worse. That's for sure.
I know you know your shit, Rich. It's just an internet argument about basketball. No disrespect intended.
I have read plenty of articles to that effect, probably including some of the ones you posted, but I don't have time to ingest all that shit again in order to win on the internet. My problem with that argument is that it is some perfect world shit. My original point was that Melo is doing the best he can with a totally fucked situation that only exists because of Knicks management. I don't know if Melo will ever lead a championship team, and have not argued that anywhere. I don't know how Melo could have made his team even better than it actually was, which was pretty good! What exactly was he supposed to be getting out of those dudes? They were all already playing above their head (and many said they were doing it for Melo). The Knicks outperformed expectations last year, and yet somehow people are mad at Melo because... they didn't get past the (now-favorite to win the 'chip) Pacers? And if you look at the complete and utter travesty unfolding in MSG night after night this season, there is no way in hell you can blame Carmelo Anthony. That is my only point. I mean shit, I'm a Warriors fan, I don't even give a shit. I just don't dig the slander, when the real issue is not Melo but Dolan. Here's a hypothetical: imagine if Dolan had not dealt all his young talent and draft picks... and signed Melo as a free agent in the offseason like Melo was saying he would do anyway. And then imagine that they were able to use some of that trade bait to land a slightly better or younger PG, maybe some bench support... I'll tell you what, they wouldn't have done worse. That's for sure.
I know you know your shit, Rich. It's just an internet argument about basketball. No disrespect intended.
Fair enough....but they had a decent PG in Lin and Melo ran him off....for that move alone the guy is indefensible and made his team worse.
I don't totally agree with that. Would you have kept Lin for the money Houston offered, just to sit him for good portions of the game behind Kidd, earning the ire of the entire Asian population of NYC, many of whom didn't give a shit mere months earlier, and take a chance on a turnover-prone PG (those things do not go together) with no left hand, based on one single stretch of time where dude was playing lights-out because nobody really knew who he was?
"Melo ran him off" is kinda some gossip shit, in the sense that there was a HUGE conversation going on in the NY sports media and community about whether or not he was worth keeping. It wasn't like everyone was in the kid's corner but Big Bad Melo threw a hissy fit.
And BTW.....I like the Warriors roster a lot...they are probably one year and one player away from seriously competing for a ring.
I dunno that they're that close to being a serious threat to win rings--they're extremely reliant on having a lot of terrible shots go in, and Curry, while a one-of-a-kind scoring threat, is also a turnover machine--but they are fun as shit to watch, and I'm sure nobody wants to get stuck against them in the playoffs.
I don't totally agree with that. Would you have kept Lin for the money Houston offered, just to sit him for good portions of the game behind Kidd, earning the ire of the entire Asian population of NYC, many of whom didn't give a shit mere months earlier, and take a chance on a turnover-prone PG (those things do not go together) with no left hand, based on one single stretch of time where dude was playing lights-out because nobody really knew who he was?
"Melo ran him off" is kinda some gossip shit, in the sense that there was a HUGE conversation going on in the NY sports media and community about whether or not he was worth keeping. It wasn't like everyone was in the kid's corner but Big Bad Melo threw a hissy fit.
Everyone involved had to realize that Kidd was running on fumes and they could have given Lin as much playing time as the Mavs gave JET coming off the bench.
The turnover issue may surprise you....here is a list of PG's along with how many turnovers they averaged last year per 36 minutes.
Deron Williams - 3.5
Russell Westbrook - 3.4
John Wall - 3.5
Ricky Rubio - 3.7
Rajon Rondo - 3.6
Kyrie Irving - 3.4
Steve Nash - 4.2
Jeremy Lin - 3.2
Of the remaining Top Ten PG's only Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Steph Curry and Brandon Jennings averaged less than Lin.
Lin is a fine journeyman PG. But to Rock's post, that wouldn't have worked at all in NYC - the fans wanted to see him get his minutes, Melo wants to be the focus of the offense, shit just wasn't going to gel at all out here. And add to that, Houston way overpaid him.
Comments
Their #2 in the East, and until they get dethroned the East runs through them.
I hate them, but I'm not writing them off when they are still an elite team, with a weak ass Eastern Conference not challenging them.
Shit would be different if there were 3 to 5 team knocking at their door. The Pacers are the ONLY threat right now.
He's Bob McAdoo. If he wins a title it will be as a nice spare part in his declining years.
OK...one last try.
Anyone and everyone you put around Melo BECOME garbage
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
b/w
One of the worst things you can do in basketball is take your team mates out of their game
Hey Rock,
Back in the Stone Age (pre And-1 era), we were taught to take the best shot possible (by using ball movement), play good defense (communicate with teammates, move your feet, etc.), and rebound on both ends. Good basketball is not brain surgery!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Someone needs to tell him that so he can stop waiving his offense out of the lane and sleeping on assists.
Back in the 60's the NBA got boring and they lost fans because a fundamentally sound team dominated. That is why the ABA started, to attract people into flash and gimmicky excitement....the red, white and blue ball....the 3 point shot and the dunking. They even modified the "traveling" rule to facilitate the spectacular shot. It was a league of highlight reel material and the NBA knew they needed that to build their brand. The ABA (non)traveling rule was pretty much adopted by the NBA(I call it the Dr. J rule) when they merged.....then came the dunk contest, which I love, and that attracted a different breed of fan....if it was all about winning rings the Spurs would have considerably more fans than they do. Tim Duncan and Company lack swagger which to the 2013 NBA fan model is important.
The NBA cultivated this kind of fan base and it was a great business decision on their part.
Touche, Sir Rock. It reminds me of boxing, what happened to the jab, footwork, and defensive discipline? Now, all the guys do is go for knockouts to excite the crowd, but take unnecessary punishment in the process. The sweet science has taken the same route as the NBA.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Mostly this is the Angry White Guy view of the NBA.
The NFL and MLB also took steps during the same time period to open up offensive opportunities, but how often do observers discuss such changes with words like "swagger" or "flash"?
Not very often.
Whenever you hear the term "fundamentally sound" being applied to basketball you have to wonder if you're entering the Adolph Rupp Zone. OMG, the Negroes and their dunking! Can't this sport be made more white friendly, fer Gawd's sake?
Wrong
b/w
You're the angriest white guy I know
The comparison of MLB and NFL to the NBA is a false equivalency and here is why. The term swagger is prevalent in Hip Hop and its related pop culture communities. The NBA is the sport most closely related to these communities and therefore the concept of ???swagger??? is much more popular in the NBA than the NFL and MLB combined. Don???t believe this? Try reading a few issues of Slam magazine and then show me something similar in those other two sports. Rappers don???t own professional baseball or football teams.
Basketball is a team sport yet the new model fan is more apt to follow players rather than teams with a couple of exceptions. It???s become a league whose fans focus as much on swag and fashion as they do on the game itself. A game that creates lists of which players have the most and least swag (see below) with Tim Duncan dominating the latter in every such list I could find. And even lists of which teams have the most swagger, on which the 4 time champion Spurs never appear. This is the NBA 2013 and I???m not mad at it, I just recognize where it was and where it is today.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1539271-nba-swag-who-has-it-who-doesnt#/articles/1539271-nba-swag-who-has-it-who-doesnt/page/12
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1656004-which-nba-playoff-team-has-less-style-and-swag-pacers-or-spurs
Only Iverson's Philly team (that I can recall) went to the Finals w/ am Elite scorer and a bunch of role players that fed into Larry Brown's game plan.
I agree w/ the games change, and now w/ the offense being geared towards non-contact guard play, the NBA is continuing the plan for higher scores and isolation(individual) ball.
But dudes still talking about Melo like he's a selfish player haven't been watching the Knicks enough.
The "wave my teammates out of the way" shit has faded. Last year when they went on that late season run, it was Melo at the four spout and the perimeter shooters were hitting their shots along with better ball movement. He hasn't reverted to the selfish Melo for a minute. The roster changed in the offseason. The veterans left (Sheed, Kurt Thomas, Kidd, Camby) and JR Smith & Felton came into this season off their game. And the shooters are gone....the white boy and the dread dude. Its not just Melo's fault.
Even worse P....boring ass boxing has gone by the wayside for the more exciting MMA / UFC.
this, exactly. all you guys are entitled to your opinions but don't front like you've actually watched the games. Unfortunately, I get to watch my fair share being here in NYC. And I get to commiserate every day with lifelong Knicks fans who have a lot more to go on than "yo, Melo's a ball hog, yo. what happened to FUNDAMENTALS"
Look at last year's Knick squad. He made his teammates worse? How? Jason Kidd, running on fumes since preseason? JR Smith getting best sixth man? (roll that one around in your head for a minute). Steve Novak, out there looking like a paler Ed Norton, dropping threes like the hoop was the size of a kiddie pool? Raymond Felton looking, I dunno, somewhat competent and like he deserves to be playing on this side of the Atlantic? A 37 year old Argentine rookie? And none of them playing much defense? They went to the second round, and even had a shot there. What more could they have done? I don't really see how Carmelo is the reason they *didn't* win the championship. Carmelo's the only reason they made the playoffs!
If you ask me, Amare was a bad acquisition, Carmelo was a bad acquisition (at least in the way it was done - they didn't need to give up SHIT) and the players they put around him *with the significant exception of Tyson Chandler* were all overachieving losers or retirees. Just like Iverson in his day, Melo is the one dude armchair analysts and FUNDAMENTALS! types like to rag on. But reading this thread, it's just the same strawman from 4-5 years ago and has little if any relevance to the last two NYK seasons.
I'm watching the games...we're just seeing two different things. Read the below articles, written in 2013 by dudes who watch and report on basketball for a living. They are seeing the same Melo I am. Kidd and Tyson were one year removed from winning a championship with a team that started JJ Barea! Of the top-10 scorers in the NBA, Anthony had the highest usage rate (35.6), but also averaged the least assists and the least steals. Anthony has NEVER placed in the top 10 for rebounding, assists, steals, blocks or any shooting percentages and these are the things that make your team better.
Maybe all these guys are uninformed armchair coaches but me thinks not.
Dan Shaughnessy is fairly knowledgable...
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/04/21/carmelo-anthony-knicks-diva-will-never-win-all/bAHFCLvUYfrvFu6xHsuTJK/story.html
Not 1 or 2 but all five of ESPN's panel of experts rate Carmelo as the most over rated small forward in the game.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-110727/small-forwards-ratings
Scroll down and see why Scaletta thinks Carmelo will never win......here's an excerpt.
Carmelo Anthony Is Carmelo Anthony
The second issue that Anthony faces is that he is Carmelo Anthony. He has a style of play that makes the players around him worse and less productive.
Is it coincidental that Stoudemire and Smith had their best games while he was out?
Anthony loves to take the ball in isolation, which takes other players out of the game. It stops ball movement and adversely impacts the team. He ran a ridiculous 612 isolation plays last year and used another 239 plays as the ball-handler in the pick-and-roll.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1658844-is-carmelo-anthonys-nba-title-path-blocked-forever
And Luis Vasquez puts it best....
10 Reasons Why Carmelo Will Never Win A Championship
Number #1- SELFISH
Carmelo???s lack of patience forced the Knicks to gut the team to attain his services. Now he is the focal point of the offense. Yet his desire to have the ball whenever and however he wants has affected the offense as they have gotten away from the passing game that contributed to their 20-6 start. He also was responsible for the departure of Jeremy Lin as Carmelo refusal to share the spotlight with ???Linsanity.???
Number #2- SHORT TERM MEMORY
Carmelo???s Olympic experience where he shared a court with LeBron James and Dwayne Wade should have been a great learning experience on how top athletes prepare to win not just games but championships. Carmelo has forgotten and gone back to trying to win games by himself.
Number #3- THE LA- LA EFFECT
The Kevin Garnett ???Carmelo situation was the bright light that went off in all Carmelo???s opponents who realized that they could get him to react with a certain kind of physical and verbal game.
Number #4-BASKETBALL SMARTS
Scoring is instinctive, but thinking is imperative. The ability to get the ball out when double teamed to an open teammate, passing and setting up others, and not driving one on three when the defenders see you coming the whole way. Anthony did these things earlier but they have been in short supply since.
Number #5- REBOUNDING-HUSTLE
This area of the game is something that depends on will. Anthony was relentless on the boards especially the defensive end. It was the most improved aspect of his game. It helped his team tremendously that he could provide skills that did not always include scoring. Now you hardly see him rip defensive rebounds from the bigger guys.
Number #6- DEFENSE
This not only includes one on one but also anticipation. The increased amount of allyoop dunks and missed assignments due to lack of hustle and smarts is more obvious when Carmelo sits and the bench leads rallies with their defense.
Number #7- POSITION CONFUSION
Anthony is a small forward playing the power forward position to allow Carmelo to use his quickness to take advantage of those matchups. The point well taken until Carmelo insists on running up the court as a point forward to run the offense, which usually ends with the ball going to the post to him anyway. This is why you have guards to run the point. It has also aggravated that knee which is in bad shape currently.
Number #8- COMMUNICATION
Looking at the example that Tyson Chandler and Rasheed Wallace provided to younger teammates through constant communication by pointing out strengths and weaknesses was lost when Wallace went down to injury. Now you have Carmelo barking at teammates to get him the ball and undressing them when they don???t.
Number #9- COACH
Carmelo has been covered by Coach Woodson through hall his controversies this year. He has yet to return the favor.
Number #10- QUITTER
Carmelo Anthony has now left two games in two weeks with an apparent knee injury. Is it a coincidence that he walked off the court when the team was down by over twenty? Frustration not only looks bad on your leader but it spreads. When injured he walked off the court, past his bench and straight to the locker. No one congratulated or acknowledged him. Anthony quits when things don???t go his way and now the mental toughness which was improved earlier this year along with the improved conditioning has gone for naught.
Also, one year for Kidd at this point is like the last 20,000 miles on a care you've had since 1991. The guy was playing pro ball when I was still in high school, some twenty years ago.
The rest is tl;dr
Dude....you question whether or not I'm up to speed and qualified to make the statements I have, so I defer to "experts" who come to the same conclusion. (Yeah, I used Google because they all turned down my request to go to Good Records and tell you in person) ALL of these links discuss the 2012-2013 season and why Melo makes his team worse not better. Not sure what it will take for you to see this but your unwillingness to read the above tells me you're not interested in any view but your own. If you are, just read Vasquez' Top Ten above.....he says it better than I could and he watched more Knick games than possibly both of us.
I know you know your shit, Rich. It's just an internet argument about basketball. No disrespect intended.
Fair enough....but they had a decent PG in Lin and Melo ran him off....for that move alone the guy is indefensible and made his team worse.
"Melo ran him off" is kinda some gossip shit, in the sense that there was a HUGE conversation going on in the NY sports media and community about whether or not he was worth keeping. It wasn't like everyone was in the kid's corner but Big Bad Melo threw a hissy fit.
I dunno that they're that close to being a serious threat to win rings--they're extremely reliant on having a lot of terrible shots go in, and Curry, while a one-of-a-kind scoring threat, is also a turnover machine--but they are fun as shit to watch, and I'm sure nobody wants to get stuck against them in the playoffs.
Everyone involved had to realize that Kidd was running on fumes and they could have given Lin as much playing time as the Mavs gave JET coming off the bench.
The turnover issue may surprise you....here is a list of PG's along with how many turnovers they averaged last year per 36 minutes.
Deron Williams - 3.5
Russell Westbrook - 3.4
John Wall - 3.5
Ricky Rubio - 3.7
Rajon Rondo - 3.6
Kyrie Irving - 3.4
Steve Nash - 4.2
Jeremy Lin - 3.2
Of the remaining Top Ten PG's only Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Steph Curry and Brandon Jennings averaged less than Lin.
He's averaging 14+ ppg in Houston on a winning squad?
Lin is as good as who on this list?
Patrick Beverley has taken the starting point guard spot. That's a lot of money paid for a bench player.
He's also on the trade block. Dude might get shipped when they package Asik.
He aint shit. Just regular ass NBA guard.