$15/hr for fast food work

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  • Do you think if you post this bullshit enough times it will become fact?]

    I've posted it once.


    Have you looked up the word "if", yet? I see you're still asshurt from yesterday.

    Also, still waiting for you to name the crime from that massive IRS scandal.

    Thanks!

    p.s., thanks for pointing out that the story was incorrect. I was unaware of that.

    Yeah, the story was "incorrect" by 40 cents or so. Big flipping deal.

    Meanwhile the Wal-Mart heirs have a net worth that exceeds that of the bottom 40% of the country. Which proves to right-wingers beyond an economic doubt that Wal-Mart could not possibly pay their workers more and stop expecting the taxpayers to subsidize their stores.

    Heavens to Betsy, what would the poor bedraggled Wal-Mart heirs do if their share of the national pie dropped to 35% or even 30%? Imma getting the vapors even thinking about the pain that would cause that pack of coddled, useless fascists.

    As for the poverty-stricken Clown?:

    "McDonald???s posted strong results during the recession by attracting cash-strapped customers, and its sales have continued to rise. Between 2010 and 2012, its annual return to investors was 15.7 percent, far better than the Dow Jones Industrial Average. McDonald???s CEO, Don Thompson, gets a big-whopper of a compensation package, valued at $13.8 million ??? about 800 times the earnings of a typical McDonald???s worker, who earns $8.25 an hour. "

    http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/mcdonalds-and-walmart

    Of course maybe it's only 15.35%, thus invalidating everything. Or something. What we are told, in every event, is that no raises are possible, ever, because just because if they were possible they would already have happened. Or something.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Here's a more recent evaluation....

    http://peoplesworld.org/if-mcdonald-s-workers-get-a-raise-would-a-big-mac-cost-more/

    The study by Morelix has brought additional negative attention to the fast-food behemoth.

    The study concludes that McDonald's could "double the salaries" of its employees to $15 an hour by increasing the price of its Big Mac by 68 cents and the Dollar Menu by 17 cents.

    One detractor, Ryan Chittum, of the Columbia Journalism Review, believes there are "serious problems" with Morelix's study.

    Chittum says the study uses bad math, and does not distinguish between company-operated McDonald's restaurants and franchises. Chittum writes, "More than 80 percent of McDonald's restaurants are franchises, and the company makes scads of money from them in no small part because it has no direct labor expense at those stores."

    In company-operated stores, Chittum argues, "a Big Mac would, in fact, have to go up by a full dollar, not 68 cents, in order to double wages at McDonald's. And the Dollar Menu would have to become the Dollar Twenty-Five Menu."

    Morelix says he's "surprised by the controversy," as the model he used "is pretty basic and straightforward."

    While he acknowledges that his study has certain limitations, Morelix said the main point "is very clear, that prices would NOT double if cost [from raising wages] doubled." He said his "whole goal" was to "clarify this one specific issue, which isn't being discussed."

    The controversy is surprising, as even Chittum admits the Dollar Menu would only become the Dollar Twenty-Five Menu - Morelix was off by a mere 8 cents. His main point still holds. Prices would NOT double if wages were doubled, which is what McDonald's and other forces opposed to raising the minimum wage claim.

    In fact, Morelix created three different models, something Chittum ignores. The first model looks at all McDonald's restaurants. The second looks at corporate-owned stores only. And the third is a franchise only model.

    "I made a judgment call," he said. "Given a certain set of circumstances, the model assumes profits and quantity sold would stay constant, and if so, then price would increase by 17 cents. It's an interpretation, a hypothetical simulation under very specific circumstances, a snapshot."


    Still no $10 burger.

    Sorry, Rock.

    p.s, it's seems the retractions you posted are inaccurate, Rock. Do you think posting the same bullshit enough times make it fact?

    Do yo even read the shit you post......

    IT'S QUOTING THE SAME EXACT INACCURATE STUDY! Performed by a student which he claimed was an "estimate"

    The only people who can accurately say how much a meal WILL be increased is the Restaurants themselves.

    And I never said a word about a $10.00 burger.

    Fast Food workers are unskilled labor and paying $31K for that unskilled job is beyond absurd.

    And to hear that the CEO of a Billion dollar corporation makes infinitely more than a fry cook is shocking!

    The McDonalds CEO makes $10 per person he employs....sounds reasonable to me.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Jean-ClaudeBanDamned said:


    Meanwhile the Wal-Mart heirs have a net worth that exceeds that of the bottom 40% of the country. Which proves to right-wingers beyond an economic doubt that Wal-Mart could not possibly pay their workers more and stop expecting the taxpayers to subsidize their stores.

    Heavens to Betsy, what would the poor bedraggled Wal-Mart heirs do if their share of the national pie dropped to 35% or even 30%? Imma getting the vapors even thinking about the pain that would cause that pack of coddled, useless fascists.

    As for the poverty-stricken Clown?:

    "McDonald???s posted strong results during the recession by attracting cash-strapped customers, and its sales have continued to rise. Between 2010 and 2012, its annual return to investors was 15.7 percent, far better than the Dow Jones Industrial Average. McDonald???s CEO, Don Thompson, gets a big-whopper of a compensation package, valued at $13.8 million ??? about 800 times the earnings of a typical McDonald???s worker, who earns $8.25 an hour. "

    http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/mcdonalds-and-walmart

    Of course maybe it's only 15.35%, thus invalidating everything. Or something. What we are told, in every event, is that no raises are possible, ever, because just because if they were possible they would already have happened. Or something.

    The Waltons were struggling farmers who started out with a $20,000 loan and built their business led by Sam, in one generation.

    The McDonalds CEO was a poor kid who worked his ass off and became rich.

    Don Thompson (born 1963) is the president and chief executive officer of McDonald's, succeeding Jim Skinner on June 30, 2012.[1][2] Thompson is an electrical engineer who joined McDonald's in 1990 from a fighter jet maker that is now part of Northrop Grumman. At McDonald's he designed robotic equipment for food transport and made control circuits for cooking. Thompson was born in 1963 in Chicago and grew up near the Cabrini???Green housing project.


    These are success stories that everyone should aspire to, not something they should be ashamed of.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    McDonalds and Wal-Mart both pay above the current U.S. Government mandated minimum wage.

    If this is shameful then it's up to our Government to change THEIR Minimum Wage Laws.

  • Rockadelic said:
    The Waltons were struggling farmers who started out with a $20,000 loan and built their business led by Sam, in one generation.

    The McDonalds CEO was a poor kid who worked his ass off and became rich.

    So what? The McDonalds CEO now rakes in big bucks largely off the backs of people making peanuts. You act like he's Bill Gates, because, once again, you always, always take the side of the Boss.

    The Waltons were struggling farmers once - so what? The Wal-Mart heirs have never struggled a minute in their lives. With each succeeding generation they get richer and further away from that freaking farm.

    Hey, is there some reason you don't address the FACT that the Wal-Mart heirs, rich beyond normal understanding, continue to have their vast wealth pumped up by virtue of taxpayer-subsidized benefits for their underpaid workers?

    Never mind, I know the answer. You balk when I call you a right-winger, but your economic views make those of the Heritage Foundation look almost progressive. You support the ongoing disintegration of the middle class in every instance. And the sad thing is you and I grew up in the days when the working class was larger and benefited much more from society than it does now. If you went through the SUNY system in the 70s and you think the current system is okay you should damn well be ashamed of yourself, because your education was much more generously subsidized than it is today.

    But you pissed all over the Occupy kids, because Screw You, Work Harder.

  • Rockadelic said:
    McDonalds and Wal-Mart both pay above the current U.S. Government mandated minimum wage.

    If this is shameful then it's up to our Government to change THEIR Minimum Wage Laws.

    Well, duh.

    That's the suggestion.

    And those two companies are fighting it tooth and nail. Why do you suppose that is?

    By the way, states can have their own minimum wages, which can be higher than the federal one. The fed minimum is $7.25. Here in MA it's $8.00 with new proposals to raise it to $11 over the next couple of years.

    I look forward to the few teabaggers we have up here moaning about paying an extra quarter for their Lardburgers.

  • Pedro Espinoza grew up dirt poor in Colombia. So poor he occasionally ate dirt. Now he's a billionaire. So what if he makes his money by exploiting poor farmers to grow coca for pennies a bushel? He's a success story to be proud of, not ashamed of. Once in a while he drives up to a poor village with a box of soccer balls, and some of the kids of those exploited farmers, why, he teaches them how to shoot and gives them jobs.

    - El Rockadelico

  • waxjunkywaxjunky 1,850 Posts
    These people are seriously over-estimating their worth. It's difficult to think of a job that takes less skill than fast food. Most of the food comes in pre-cooked or pre-prepped in some way. What's easier than dropping a basket of frozen fries in the grease, or assembling a taco when the shell has arrived pre-fried, the meat has arrived pre-cooked, and lettuce and cheese have arrived pre-shredded?

    A decent line cook at a real restaurant in a major city is probably going to pull around $15/hour. And a skilled line cook is like gold, and very difficult to replace. Unfortunately, real restaurants run on thinner margins than fast food joints, so real line cooks catch a bad break.

    Anyway, $15/hour for fast food work is just beyond absurd to me. Even more absurd than a CEO salary. And this is coming from someone who pretty much hates The Man.

  • waxjunky said:
    These people are seriously over-estimating their worth. It's difficult to think of a job that takes less skill than fast food. Most of the food comes in pre-cooked or pre-prepped in some way. What's easier than dropping a basket of frozen fries in the grease, or assembling a taco when the shell has arrived pre-fried, the meat has arrived pre-cooked, and lettuce and cheese have arrived pre-shredded?

    A decent line cook at a real restaurant in a major city is probably going to pull around $15/hour. And a skilled line cook is like gold, and very difficult to replace. Unfortunately, real restaurants run on thinner margins than fast food joints, so real line cooks catch a bad break.

    Anyway, $15/hour for fast food work is just beyond absurd to me. Even more absurd than a CEO salary. And this is coming from someone who pretty much hates The Man.

    You sound like every tired old crank whining about how much school teachers, cops, shortstops, etc. get paid.

    Seriously, why do you care? If they can find a way to improve their lot through collective action, how exactly does it grind skin off your ass?

    What do you do that's so precious and difficult that you should make so much more money than these people?

    You know what job takes no skill at all? Being a Wal-Mart heir. There is no job that takes less skill. Basically you have to pop out of a uterus and start accruing wealth. Talk about pre-cooked meat.

  • waxjunkywaxjunky 1,850 Posts
    Jean-ClaudeBanDamned said:
    waxjunky said:
    These people are seriously over-estimating their worth. It's difficult to think of a job that takes less skill than fast food. Most of the food comes in pre-cooked or pre-prepped in some way. What's easier than dropping a basket of frozen fries in the grease, or assembling a taco when the shell has arrived pre-fried, the meat has arrived pre-cooked, and lettuce and cheese have arrived pre-shredded?

    A decent line cook at a real restaurant in a major city is probably going to pull around $15/hour. And a skilled line cook is like gold, and very difficult to replace. Unfortunately, real restaurants run on thinner margins than fast food joints, so real line cooks catch a bad break.

    Anyway, $15/hour for fast food work is just beyond absurd to me. Even more absurd than a CEO salary. And this is coming from someone who pretty much hates The Man.

    You sound like every tired old crank whining about how much school teachers, cops, shortstops, etc. get paid.

    Seriously, why do you care? If they can find a way to improve their lot through collective action, how exactly does it grind skin off your ass?

    What do you do that's so precious and difficult that you should make so much more money than these people?

    You know what job takes no skill at all? Being a Wal-Mart heir. There is no job that takes less skill. Basically you have to pop out of a uterus and start accruing wealth. Talk about pre-cooked meat.

    I'm a chef, and about eight years ago, I was cooking Michelin-star food for $11/hr. So, at that point, I was pretty damn close to their level. I empathize with these people as human beings, but I also held a fast food job in high school. For the two years I worked at Taco Bell, we went from cooking almost all of our food in-house to having all of it arrive pre-fab. It's called the "K-Minus" system, and the goal is to remove the kitchen from the fast-food model. Fast-food restaurants will continue to become even more automated, and probably get down to having just two or three employees at any one time.

    Stating these facts may make it seem like I'm pro-Big Business, or even worse, Republican. I'm not. I sit on the board of a Slow Food chapter, so I'm as anti-McD's as one can get. I would like to see fast food go away altogether, but that's another agenda.

    At the end of it, I'm just making an outside observation: $15/hour for fast food work is a laugh. Period. They're not teaching kids, fighting crime, or turning double-plays.

  • waxjunky said:
    Stating these facts may make it seem like I'm pro-Big Business, or even worse, Republican. I'm not. I sit on the board of a Slow Food chapter, so I'm as anti-McD's as one can get. I would like to see fast food go away altogether, but that's another agenda.

    At the end of it, I'm just making an outside observation: $15/hour for fast food work is a laugh. Period. They're not teaching kids, fighting crime, or turning double-plays.

    So what? In 1968 Carl Yastrzemski, coming off one of the best seasons in baseball history, got a contract that paid him $100,000. LOts of people went nuts and said he was grossly overpaid because all he did was play a kid's game.

    Every time teachers anywhere in the country demand a raise people go nuts and say they get summers off, blah blah blah.

    Cops in my town spend a lot more time writing tickets than they do "fighting crime." It doesn't strike me as the most highly skilled job out there.

    Maybe instead of pissing on these people you should ask yourself why you (and others) didn't do what they're doing and organize to make more money than the $11 an hour you were making during the time you mentioned. Because I'm quite sure you know you were being bent over during that time.

    You might not think you're being pro-Big Business, but that's the end result of your opinions and your passivity anyway. Your approach is "This is the way it is and there's nothing anyone can do about it."

    And that's just pure, ignorant, lazy-ass bullshit. Anyone with any real knowledge of labor history knows how absurd and wrong you are.

    "Overtime? What an absurd notion, Thurston! The next thing you know the peasants will want lunch breaks!"

  • waxjunkywaxjunky 1,850 Posts
    Jean-ClaudeBanDamned said:
    waxjunky said:
    Stating these facts may make it seem like I'm pro-Big Business, or even worse, Republican. I'm not. I sit on the board of a Slow Food chapter, so I'm as anti-McD's as one can get. I would like to see fast food go away altogether, but that's another agenda.

    At the end of it, I'm just making an outside observation: $15/hour for fast food work is a laugh. Period. They're not teaching kids, fighting crime, or turning double-plays.

    So what? In 1968 Carl Yastrzemski, coming off one of the best seasons in baseball history, got a contract that paid him $100,000. LOts of people went nuts and said he was grossly overpaid because all he did was play a kid's game.

    Every time teachers anywhere in the country demand a raise people go nuts and say they get summers off, blah blah blah.

    Cops in my town spend a lot more time writing tickets than they do "fighting crime." It doesn't strike me as the most highly skilled job out there.

    Maybe instead of pissing on these people you should ask yourself why you (and others) didn't do what they're doing and organize to make more money than the $11 an hour you were making during the time you mentioned. Because I'm quite sure you know you were being bent over during that time.

    You might not think you're being pro-Big Business, but that's the end result of your opinions and your passivity anyway. Your approach is "This is the way it is and there's nothing anyone can do about it."

    And that's just pure, ignorant, lazy-ass bullshit. Anyone with any real knowledge of labor history knows how absurd and wrong you are.

    "Overtime? What an absurd notion, Thurston! The next thing you know the peasants will want lunch breaks!"

    Haha. Some of these fast food joints stayed open during the strike by closing the dining room and selling through the drive-thru. These places probably still turned a profit for the day. There was no leverage in this walk-out. Striking is not going to work in this case.

    We have to choose our battles, but if it means anything, I've been boycotting fast food for ages now. That's about the most I can do, legally, to fight fast food. That, and try to raise awareness through the Slow Food movement. If this makes me passively pro-Big Business, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    You won't see me out there with a picket sign, though. Those fools are wasting their damn time! I only accepted $11/hour because I was there to learn, and I was willing to make a sacrifice at that time. I wasn't bitter, so I didn't try to form a union. I have gotten progressively better jobs over the years, though. Yay me!

  • waxjunky said:
    We have to choose our battles, but if it means anything, I've been boycotting fast food for ages now. That's about the most I can do, legally, to fight fast food. That, and try to raise awareness through the Slow Food movement. If this makes me passively pro-Big Business, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    You won't see me out there with a picket sign, though. Those fools are wasting their damn time! I only accepted $11/hour because I was there to learn, and I was willing to make a sacrifice at that time. I wasn't bitter, so I didn't try to form a union. I have gotten progressively better jobs over the years, though. Yay me!

    And the stupid fools who sacrificed in the past and protested so you could get overtime pay were fools!

    Fuck them! Yay you!

    You wouldn't give up shit to make life better for anyone else!

    Jeezus, you're a real prizewinning go-getter.

    You don't know shit about the many, many people who sacrificed and ended up making your life better before you were even born, and you don't give a shit.

    People like you deserve to get fucked over by The Man every day of your lives. You're a Fake Rebel. The only reason you're against fast food is because you work in slow food. Yee hah, Che.

  • waxjunkywaxjunky 1,850 Posts
    Jean-ClaudeBanDamned said:
    waxjunky said:
    We have to choose our battles, but if it means anything, I've been boycotting fast food for ages now. That's about the most I can do, legally, to fight fast food. That, and try to raise awareness through the Slow Food movement. If this makes me passively pro-Big Business, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    You won't see me out there with a picket sign, though. Those fools are wasting their damn time! I only accepted $11/hour because I was there to learn, and I was willing to make a sacrifice at that time. I wasn't bitter, so I didn't try to form a union. I have gotten progressively better jobs over the years, though. Yay me!

    And the stupid fools who sacrificed in the past and protested so you could get overtime pay were fools!

    Fuck them! Yay you!

    You wouldn't give up shit to make life better for anyone else!

    Jeezus, you're a real prizewinning go-getter.

    You don't know shit about the many, many people who sacrificed and ended up making your life better before you were even born, and you don't give a shit.

    People like you deserve to get fucked over by The Man every day of your lives. You're a Fake Rebel. The only reason you're against fast food is because you work in slow food. Yee hah, Che.

    Heh. You fuck over these people every time you order a Big Mac, fatty! Now that I have the last word, I'm putting you on ignore, right.....






    Now!

  • waxjunky said:
    Heh. You fuck over these people every time you order a Big Mac, fatty! Now that I have the last word, I'm putting you on ignore, right.....

    Now!

    I've never had a Big Mac, chuckles.

    Keep on ignoring reality, though. Ignorance is your only real skill.

  • Jean-ClaudeBanDamned said:
    waxjunky said:
    We have to choose our battles, but if it means anything, I've been boycotting fast food for ages now. That's about the most I can do, legally, to fight fast food. That, and try to raise awareness through the Slow Food movement. If this makes me passively pro-Big Business, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    You won't see me out there with a picket sign, though. Those fools are wasting their damn time! I only accepted $11/hour because I was there to learn, and I was willing to make a sacrifice at that time. I wasn't bitter, so I didn't try to form a union. I have gotten progressively better jobs over the years, though. Yay me!

    And the stupid fools who sacrificed in the past and protested so you could get overtime pay were fools!

    Fuck them! Yay you!

    You wouldn't give up shit to make life better for anyone else!

    Jeezus, you're a real prizewinning go-getter.

    You don't know shit about the many, many people who sacrificed and ended up making your life better before you were even born, and you don't give a shit.

    People like you deserve to get fucked over by The Man every day of your lives. You're a Fake Rebel. The only reason you're against fast food is because you work in slow food. Yee hah, Che.

    yeah, people wanting fair overtime pay and striving against excessively long hours, a fucking hundred years ago, is the same thing as fast food workers wanting $15 an hour.

    wow.

  • walter_chron said:
    Jean-ClaudeBanDamned said:
    waxjunky said:
    We have to choose our battles, but if it means anything, I've been boycotting fast food for ages now. That's about the most I can do, legally, to fight fast food. That, and try to raise awareness through the Slow Food movement. If this makes me passively pro-Big Business, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    You won't see me out there with a picket sign, though. Those fools are wasting their damn time! I only accepted $11/hour because I was there to learn, and I was willing to make a sacrifice at that time. I wasn't bitter, so I didn't try to form a union. I have gotten progressively better jobs over the years, though. Yay me!

    And the stupid fools who sacrificed in the past and protested so you could get overtime pay were fools!

    Fuck them! Yay you!

    You wouldn't give up shit to make life better for anyone else!

    Jeezus, you're a real prizewinning go-getter.

    You don't know shit about the many, many people who sacrificed and ended up making your life better before you were even born, and you don't give a shit.

    People like you deserve to get fucked over by The Man every day of your lives. You're a Fake Rebel. The only reason you're against fast food is because you work in slow food. Yee hah, Che.

    yeah, people wanting fair overtime pay and striving against excessively long hours, a fucking hundred years ago, is the same thing as fast food workers wanting $15 an hour.

    wow.

    What's truly wow is that there are people who are ignorant enough to think that all of this happened a hundred years ago.

    Note to Texan dumbass: We Just Had The Fiftieth Anniversary Of The March On Washington This Week.

    Guess what was one of the major issues of that march, Texan dumbass.

    It was the minimum wage.

    I know you're a Texan dumbass and you're too stupid to get complex issues, like most Texan dumbasses, but this is an ongoing issue.

    Idiot.

    Jeezus.

    One day you'll wake up and realize you were a moron. Or you won't. Either way, you're a moron.

    Texas - Where A Hundred Years And Fifty Years Are The Same Because When You Use Yer Fingers To Count Hey You Get Tired N Stuff

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    The one sure fire way to know when you've won a debate is when your opponent resorts to personal insults.

    My mother didn't own a pair of shoes until she was 5 years old when she couldn't go to school without them. Her father dropped out of school at age 10 to pick tobacco for $0.10 an hour. Never made anything close to Minimum Wage in his life. He went blind in his thirties and lived to 98 without accepting a penny from the government which he considered a handout. My mother cleaned other peoples homes until she was almost 60 to make ends meet. The thought of a New England lawyer trying to school me on the plight of the poor is fucking laughable.

    When I got out of Community College (which I couldn't get a student loan for) I took a job sweeping floors for Minimum Wage. The current job I have now started out at $0.25 above minimum wage. In the spirit of the great Bill Hicks "I know what it's like to be poor, that's why I have a (good) job"

    So forgive me if I have no compassion for unskilled workers who think they are entitled to be placed on second base just because they made it to first.

    And maybe you can go argue with those folks who depend on the cheap fast food that feeds their family for fearing a Big Mac is only going to go up a measly dollar. Call them morons.

    Feel free to insult my family now too, I expect it and can certainly deal with it.

    Go ahead and have the last word.....I won't put you on ignore, but I won't engage you on this topic any longer...we'll just let the jury that are the readers here decide who they agree with.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    All I know is that this:

    Robot Serves Up 360 Hamburgers Per Hour

    combined with this:

    McDonald???s and its franchisees hired 62,000 people in the U.S. after receiving more than one million applications

    does not bode well for $15/hr.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    http://mises.ca/posts/blog/the-minimum-wage-myth-that-wont-die/


    The Minimum Wage Myth that Won???t Die


    Thursday, August 29th, 2013 by Logan Albright posted in Capitalism, Economics.


    The economic theory behind why minimum wage hikes are not good for prosperity is so simple and has been repeated so many times, it???s almost not worth addressing anymore. Yet every year, some ill-informed politician comes out loudly proclaiming that higher wages mandated by the government will help the poor and reduce income inequality, so apparently we have to keep going down this road until it sinks in.

    The latest offender is Senator Barbara Boxer, who is shooting her mouth off with ignorant claims that a $10 an hour minimum wage is just the thing to help the plight of the working poor. This is wrong on so many levels that it???s hard to know where to begin. Let???s start with an obvious truth that is all too often forgotten in discussions about labor regulations: labor is a product. The worker is the producer, and the employer is the customer. When you hire someone to cut your hair or paint your house, you think of yourself as the customer, but this intuition tends to break down in office or service sector jobs. If you work as a cashier for McDonald???s, the hungry people who come in and order burgers from you are not your customers. McDonald???s itself is your customer, and your time is the product they are buying from you, just like people buy burgers from them.

    Boxer claims that a mandated increase in the price of your labor will benefit you, the seller. If that is true, than a mandated increase in the price of hamburgers should benefit McDonald???s, the seller, right? But there is nothing to stop McDonald???s from raising their prices. If $10 an hour is a good price for labor, why do they not charge $10 for a hamburger? The answer should be clear. At $10 a burger, McDonald???s would have many, many fewer customers. Even if every food product on the market fell under the same requirement so that customers couldn???t substitute to another eatery, people would still eat less in general, and McDonald???s would lose money. An arbitrary hike in the price of a product does not benefit sellers, it drives away buyers. Labor is no different than any other product in this regard.

    When we think of labor as a product in this way, discarding abstract and meaningless notions of what is a ???fair??? wage, it becomes quite easy to see why high minimum wages do not benefit the poor. The price of labor rises, and so people buy less of it. Unemployment rises, and people with jobs find themselves either laid off or forced to work fewer hours in order to reduce costs. Since there will be fewer jobs available at the new minimum wage, production will decrease across the entire economy. Lower production levels mean that consumers must compete more aggressively for available goods by bidding up prices. So even though the workers lucky enough to keep their jobs may see an increase in pay, their dollars will not stretch as far as before.

    According to Boxer, ???There???s one word we always have to focus on and that???s ???fairness???.??? Leaving aside what a stupid thing that is to say, let???s take her at her word and focus on fairness. Is it fair to the man working for $8 an hour to be put out of work, because the government rules this productive contract illegal? Is it fair to young, uneducated workers trying to gain experience to be forbidden from competing across the only dimension they are able? Is it fair to mandate higher wages for a few, privileged workers while the same legislation throws many others into joblessness? Is it fair to saddle businesses with higher costs in a weak economy with an already draconian regulatory environment?

    Maybe I need to buy a new dictionary, but none of these things seems to me to fit the definition of fairness. To me, fairness is allowing individuals to freely contract with one another, negotiating a mutually agreeable price. Fairness is treating everybody equally, not offering preferential treatment to protected classes or union members. It is bad enough that politicians know next to nothing about economics, but when they try to justify their destructive policies with misguided appeals to fairness that necessitate a near total redefinition of the term, it makes one wonder what hope there can be for the future.

    Logan Albright is a writer and economist in Washington, DC.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,873 Posts
    PatrickCrazy said:

    lol

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    I know I was being anti-American with that but I gotta send you guys a shoutout sometimes too

  • Jean-ClaudeBanDamned said:
    walter_chron said:
    Jean-ClaudeBanDamned said:
    waxjunky said:
    We have to choose our battles, but if it means anything, I've been boycotting fast food for ages now. That's about the most I can do, legally, to fight fast food. That, and try to raise awareness through the Slow Food movement. If this makes me passively pro-Big Business, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    You won't see me out there with a picket sign, though. Those fools are wasting their damn time! I only accepted $11/hour because I was there to learn, and I was willing to make a sacrifice at that time. I wasn't bitter, so I didn't try to form a union. I have gotten progressively better jobs over the years, though. Yay me!

    And the stupid fools who sacrificed in the past and protested so you could get overtime pay were fools!

    Fuck them! Yay you!

    You wouldn't give up shit to make life better for anyone else!

    Jeezus, you're a real prizewinning go-getter.

    You don't know shit about the many, many people who sacrificed and ended up making your life better before you were even born, and you don't give a shit.

    People like you deserve to get fucked over by The Man every day of your lives. You're a Fake Rebel. The only reason you're against fast food is because you work in slow food. Yee hah, Che.

    yeah, people wanting fair overtime pay and striving against excessively long hours, a fucking hundred years ago, is the same thing as fast food workers wanting $15 an hour.

    wow.

    What's truly wow is that there are people who are ignorant enough to think that all of this happened a hundred years ago.

    Note to Texan dumbass: We Just Had The Fiftieth Anniversary Of The March On Washington This Week.

    Guess what was one of the major issues of that march, Texan dumbass.

    It was the minimum wage.

    I know you're a Texan dumbass and you're too stupid to get complex issues, like most Texan dumbasses, but this is an ongoing issue.

    Idiot.

    Jeezus.

    One day you'll wake up and realize you were a moron. Or you won't. Either way, you're a moron.

    Texas - Where A Hundred Years And Fifty Years Are The Same Because When You Use Yer Fingers To Count Hey You Get Tired N Stuff

    lol

    I'm not from Texas.

    The March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom has nothing do do with this discussion and you know it.

    I didn't even mention minimum wage! What, people weren't fighting for workers rights a hundred years ago? Weren't labor unions formed in like the late 1800's? The fair labor standards act was in 1937...

    whatever, man. You're clearly just talking out your ass at this point. Have fun arguing with yourself....

    #ignore

  • And I NEVER even post in political threads, and even enjoy your commentary in some of them, but just had to call you out on this one. You're full of shit, and, I also wanted to point out that it's the argry, venomous self-righteous liberals like yourself that fuck it up for the rest of us. peace!

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,873 Posts
    PatrickCrazy said:
    I know I was being anti-American with that but I gotta send you guys a shoutout sometimes too

    I wasn't lol on the country of origin. But because the site is crap.

  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    My .02:

    First, everybody scoffing at the ffw request for $15/hr and think it is absurd, I hope I never have to be on your team to negotiate anything, because you obviously suck at it. As my father said, "you cant sell up". Meaning, you start at a high, idealized figure. If they are asking for 15, then if it does start a serious discussion among ff executives, then perhaps the compromise ends up at 10/11. They couldnt ask for 10 and hope they can negotiate that price higher. If they asked for a more reasonable price , like 10 an hour, they would end up with a compromised rate of 8 an hour, a raise of only a few cents.

    Secondly, as I have read hundreds of comments on my local news boards, the consensus opinions on the 15/hr question (the majority of opinions seems to be "hell no") seem to stem from 3 reasons...the number one reason appears to be akin of "they forgot to give me an extra ranch sauce, so fuck them", followed by "they work in fast food, therefore, they are too stupid to work anywhere else"(ironic that opinions like these seemed to be written in 2nd grade English by self described "educated" people...but I digress) and then the anecdotal and sentimental, "I-have-a-better-work- ethic than everybody who works in fast food nowadays because I flipped burgers in high school for $2/ an hour and I didn't complain." It is very amazing that so many 16-year olds in the 60s and 70s were able to work, go to school, pay rent, have health insurance, and raise a family on 2 an hour...oh, wait. What I am saying is that all of the above reasons against a higher minimum wage are complete bullshit. Even "scholarly" essays against raising the minimum wage are devoid of actual facts and figures and with a word substitution, could be an essay defending slavery. Again, the arguments against it are complete bullshit...they are based in gut-feelings and a mis -informed worldview.

    third, I believe if you decide to play the game and decide you want to work 40 hours a week for someone, that you deserve not to live in poverty. Whatever you do.. flip burgers, shine shoes, dig ditches, whatever.. you deserve to be able to pay rent, eat and go see a doctor. Period.

    Bonus beat...I find it hilarious and sad that the same people who say "pay them whatever you want to, it is YOUR business, you are a "job creator", you should have the say in what you pay them" are the same people who piss and moan about the existence of food stamps and how they don't want their tax dollars going to them. So you are against people working to feed themselves and against them getting gov't help to feed themselves... uhh, ok.

    I wont even get started on the "they should go to college crowd". It takes a special kind of stupid to think you can throw tuition, books, fees and extra babysitting into the ffw's budget when rent and food cannot be covered by the minimum wage.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,873 Posts
    The_Hook_Up said:
    My .02:

    First, everybody scoffing at the ffw request for $15/hr and think it is absurd, I hope I never have to be on your team to negotiate anything, because you obviously suck at it. As my father said, "you cant sell up". Meaning, you start at a high, idealized figure. If they are asking for 15, then if it does start a serious discussion among ff executives, then perhaps the compromise ends up at 10/11. They couldnt ask for 10 and hope they can negotiate that price higher. If they asked for a more reasonable price , like 10 an hour, they would end up with a compromised rate of 8 an hour, a raise of only a few cents.

    Secondly, as I have read hundreds of comments on my local news boards, the consensus opinions on the 15/hr question (the majority of opinions seems to be "hell no") seem to stem from 3 reasons...the number one reason appears to be akin of "they forgot to give me an extra ranch sauce, so fuck them", followed by "they work in fast food, therefore, they are too stupid to work anywhere else"(ironic that opinions like these seemed to be written in 2nd grade English by self described "educated" people...but I digress) and then the anecdotal and sentimental, "I-have-a-better-work- ethic than everybody who works in fast food nowadays because I flipped burgers in high school for $2/ an hour and I didn't complain." It is very amazing that so many 16-year olds in the 60s and 70s were able to work, go to school, pay rent, have health insurance, and raise a family on 2 an hour...oh, wait. What I am saying is that all of the above reasons against a higher minimum wage are complete bullshit. Even "scholarly" essays against raising the minimum wage are devoid of actual facts and figures and with a word substitution, could be an essay defending slavery. Again, the arguments against it are complete bullshit...they are based in gut-feelings and a mis -informed worldview.

    third, I believe if you decide to play the game and decide you want to work 40 hours a week for someone, that you deserve not to live in poverty. Whatever you do.. flip burgers, shine shoes, dig ditches, whatever.. you deserve to be able to pay rent, eat and go see a doctor. Period.

    Bonus beat...I find it hilarious and sad that the same people who say "pay them whatever you want to, it is YOUR business, you are a "job creator", you should have the say in what you pay them" are the same people who piss and moan about the existence of food stamps and how they don't want their tax dollars going to them. So you are against people working to feed themselves and against them getting gov't help to feed themselves... uhh, ok.

    I wont even get started on the "they should go to college crowd". It takes a special kind of stupid to think you can throw tuition, books, fees and extra babysitting into the ffw's budget when rent and food cannot be covered by the minimum wage.

    Didn't you get the memo?

    http://lifewise.canoe.ca/Living/Parenting/2013/08/22/21067291.html

    "But it's what's not considered in the report that's raising a lot of eyebrows: daycare, for example, which the report says many parents don't need."


    On a side note. I was sitting in a lecture the other day. This student was making the argument that people flipping burgers don't deserve paid vacation time. Based on the argument that anyone can flip burgers blah blah blah. I was shaking my head and the dude sitting next to me say "Nobody listens to that guy. His family owns 5 Mickey D's and he drives a Porsche".

    I really just think it comes down to people think there needs to be slaves in this world. They may not come out and say that. But subconsciously...

  • BeatChemistBeatChemist 1,465 Posts
    DOR said:

    On a side note. I was sitting in a lecture a the other day. This student was making the argument that people flipping burgers don't deserve paid vacation time. Based on the argument that anyone can flip burgers blah blah blah. I was shaking my head and the dude sitting next to me say "Nobody listens to that guy. His family owns 5 Mickey D's and he drives a Porsche".

    I really just think it comes down to people think there needs to be slaves in this world. They may not come out and say that. But subconsciously...

    I think it's this, combined with the influence capitalism and advertising. Th standard of living that everyone aspires to and lusts after cannot be supported by the majority of the jobs available. Everyone wants to make $100k+ a year and live the life they see in popular culture. But somebody has to mop floors and collect tokens and clean sewers, etc etc. Hell, you might as well add "teach our children, save people and property from fires, care for people when they are ill," to the list of shitty jobs that won't buy you the good life. Cuz teachers, fire fighters, and nurses are making peanuts. And I think that's where things are super fucked. Jobs that are essential to the well functioning of society should allow the person doing them to live a full and prosperous life. But maybe I'm just naive and an idealist.

    The costs of having soooo much of the population struggling and feeling helpless in their lives FAR outweigh the "burden" that this would put on the profits of the business owners and corporations it would affect.

    EDIT - and I'm not saying 15 is the magic number or anything like that. But this conversation about the income gap needs to happen on a large scale, so I'm in favour of any kind of movement that furthers it.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,518 Posts
    The_Hook_Up said:
    My .02:

    First, everybody scoffing at the ffw request for $15/hr and think it is absurd, I hope I never have to be on your team to negotiate anything, because you obviously suck at it. As my father said, "you cant sell up". Meaning, you start at a high, idealized figure. If they are asking for 15, then if it does start a serious discussion among ff executives, then perhaps the compromise ends up at 10/11. They couldnt ask for 10 and hope they can negotiate that price higher. If they asked for a more reasonable price , like 10 an hour, they would end up with a compromised rate of 8 an hour, a raise of only a few cents.

    Secondly, as I have read hundreds of comments on my local news boards, the consensus opinions on the 15/hr question (the majority of opinions seems to be "hell no") seem to stem from 3 reasons...the number one reason appears to be akin of "they forgot to give me an extra ranch sauce, so fuck them", followed by "they work in fast food, therefore, they are too stupid to work anywhere else"(ironic that opinions like these seemed to be written in 2nd grade English by self described "educated" people...but I digress) and then the anecdotal and sentimental, "I-have-a-better-work- ethic than everybody who works in fast food nowadays because I flipped burgers in high school for $2/ an hour and I didn't complain." It is very amazing that so many 16-year olds in the 60s and 70s were able to work, go to school, pay rent, have health insurance, and raise a family on 2 an hour...oh, wait. What I am saying is that all of the above reasons against a higher minimum wage are complete bullshit. Even "scholarly" essays against raising the minimum wage are devoid of actual facts and figures and with a word substitution, could be an essay defending slavery. Again, the arguments against it are complete bullshit...they are based in gut-feelings and a mis -informed worldview.

    third, I believe if you decide to play the game and decide you want to work 40 hours a week for someone, that you deserve not to live in poverty. Whatever you do.. flip burgers, shine shoes, dig ditches, whatever.. you deserve to be able to pay rent, eat and go see a doctor. Period.

    Bonus beat...I find it hilarious and sad that the same people who say "pay them whatever you want to, it is YOUR business, you are a "job creator", you should have the say in what you pay them" are the same people who piss and moan about the existence of food stamps and how they don't want their tax dollars going to them. So you are against people working to feed themselves and against them getting gov't help to feed themselves... uhh, ok.

    I wont even get started on the "they should go to college crowd". It takes a special kind of stupid to think you can throw tuition, books, fees and extra babysitting into the ffw's budget when rent and food cannot be covered by the minimum wage.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,518 Posts






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