I do. Raised in the Ukrainian Catholic Church (http://www.archeparchy.ca/), but I guess you could say that I'm a non-denominational Christian now. Been meaning to go to church more often - don't have much of an excuse, given that there's one just down the street.
...nature is really what should be getting worshiped. humans are definitely a part of that, as are plants, ecosystems, animals and miami heat fans. humans are just part of the universal web of lifeforce...not the central agent of it and no more important than other pieces.
I have to agree with this. So, isn't it ironic that we're shitting all over what gave birth to us and what sustains us.
I have a religious moral dilemma. The catholic part of my family was raised in, and attends the church built by Charles Coughlin. There are a lot of aspects of catholocism that make me squeamish. So I was never too keen to attend weddings, etc. there. But I was also fascinated by the strange rituals and traditions.
Then as I grew and learned the church's history, I got more turned off. To the point where, when invited to my cousins catholic something-or-other (first communion?) a few years ago, I made an excuse not to go, and then felt guilty.
After all, I'm pretty sure none of the more recent generations are aware of the history. Also, should one man from the 30's taint a congregation from today? And, my little cousin is just a little kid who made no choice in the matter. But that place is just BAD vibes to me.
The National Socialist government of Nazi Germany was, in my understanding, explicitly anti-Christian.
The official religion, to the degree there was one, was of Norse gods.
The Nazi's hated the Catholic church. The Vatican saw godless fascism as preferable to godless communism.
The relationship with the Lutheran church was more muted.
You could not possibly be more misinformed.
The Vatican was the first state to sign a treaty with the Reich, and Hitler remained a Catholic in good standing until his death.
There was no "official religion" dealing with "Norse gods." Nazis did want to run a state church but it would have been a Christian one. There's nothing unusual about that - just ask the Anglicans.
Christians have been running away from Hitler ever since he lost the war, but there was, of course, a very different opinion of him among German Christians before that happened. Most of them loved him.
You're all over the place Bob. If Nietzsche's influence is overblown, then so is Martin Luther's. Are we gonna start blaming the Nazi's on occultism, or the Vedas?
Is it theism that is causing the Middle East problems? Examples of peaceful religious co-existence are numerous.
As for Communism, then it is "religion" in the sense of "ideology". Semantics, as far as Im concerned. Can you term liberal democracy a religion, since people ascribe to it in numbers and propagate it as a political absolute?
I'm not the one who brought up genocide. You did that.
And, yeah, I think conflicts between theisms are absolutely related to the problems in the Middle East.
I don't know anyone who is saying liberal democracy is an absolute. The unique thing about theism is that theists see themselves as backed up by an eternal, almighty creature who is the sole arbiter of what is right and wrong. Who is the equivalent in "liberal democracy"?
The point about Luther is that vicious anti-Semitism had a centuries-long history in German culture. Widespread and present among a broad swathe of society. How well known do you think the writings of Nietzsche were? It seems absurd to me to look to Nietzsche instead of a cultural constant of long standing, but I guess that's the thing you have to do when you're compelled to make excuses for religion.
You're all over the place Bob. If Nietzsche's influence is overblown, then so is Martin Luther's.
I don't think one could remotely begin to compare Nietzsche's influence on society / history to that of Martin Luther.
Yeah. It's like comparing Nena and her Luftballons to Beethoven.
I think Nietzsche's concept of Will to Power and the Superman is far more influential as far as Nazi ideology is concerned (master race, creation of the new German etc.) The root of European anti-Semitism is not theism - I just don't see evidence for it. The mere fact that there are plenty of examples of peaceful religious co-existence show that factor outside of religious ideology contribute to religious conflict.
You're all over the place Bob. If Nietzsche's influence is overblown, then so is Martin Luther's.
I don't think one could remotely begin to compare Nietzsche's influence on society / history to that of Martin Luther.
Yeah. It's like comparing Nena and her Luftballons to Beethoven.
I think Nietzsche's concept of Will to Power and the Superman is far more influential as far as Nazi ideology is concerned (master race, creation of the new German etc.) The root of European anti-Semitism is not theism - I just don't see evidence for it. The mere fact that there are plenty of examples of peaceful religious co-existence show that factor outside of religious ideology contribute to religious conflict.
Of course other factors contribute. I never said they didn't.
But the mere fact that you said "factor outside of religious ideology contribute to religious conflict" is an admission that the religious factor is a major element. Which is all that I was claiming.
By the way, if you don't see theistic factors at the root of European anti-Semitism it's only because you don't know that history very well. What else is at the root? Europeans hated kosher cuisine? Come on. I suggested that you read the Luther pamphlet. Here's a link:
You're all over the place Bob. If Nietzsche's influence is overblown, then so is Martin Luther's.
I don't think one could remotely begin to compare Nietzsche's influence on society / history to that of Martin Luther.
Yeah. It's like comparing Nena and her Luftballons to Beethoven.
I think Nietzsche's concept of Will to Power and the Superman is far more influential as far as Nazi ideology is concerned (master race, creation of the new German etc.) The root of European anti-Semitism is not theism - I just don't see evidence for it. The mere fact that there are plenty of examples of peaceful religious co-existence show that factor outside of religious ideology contribute to religious conflict.
Of course other factors contribute. I never said they didn't.
But the mere fact that you said "factor outside of religious ideology contribute to religious conflict" is an admission that the religious factor is a major element. Which is all that I was claiming.
By the way, if you don't see theistic factors at the root of European anti-Semitism it's only because you don't know that history very well. What else is at the root? Europeans hated kosher cuisine? Come on. I suggested that you read the Luther pamphlet. Here's a link:
Maybe a Jewish kid beat him up once. Yeah, religion had nothing to do with it.
You're right, of course religion is a major element. But its the chicken or the egg question - would anti-Semitism spring up in Europe regardless of religion? I think it would. A migration of an entrepreneurial nation into one's homeland causes jealousy and resentment, plus the whole "fear of the other" thing. Would something else be used to justify these already existing feelings? The nature of human beings tells me there would. Either way, I was originally talking about theism as a philosophical concept, more than institutionalized religion, so I definitely don't disagree with your points completely...
You're right, of course religion is a major element. But its the chicken or the egg question - would anti-Semitism spring up in Europe regardless of religion? I think it would. A migration of an entrepreneurial nation into one's homeland causes jealousy and resentment, plus the whole "fear of the other" thing. Would something else be used to justify these already existing feelings? The nature of human beings tells me there would. Either way, I was originally talking about theism as a philosophical concept, more than institutionalized religion, so I definitely don't disagree with your points completely...
Um... "entrepreneurial nation"? Really? You think the Jews just showed up in Germany one day en masse and got all "entrepreneurial" on the Germans, and that's what caused the resentment?
That's just not what happened, and it carries a stench of anti-Semitism all by itself.
I don't think it's possible to separate European anti-Semitism from the dominant Christianity of the region and time. Let's remember that it was only recently that the Catholic Church declared that the Jews were not to blame for killing Jesus. That was the dominant view of Jews among Christians for centuries.
You're right, of course religion is a major element. But its the chicken or the egg question - would anti-Semitism spring up in Europe regardless of religion? I think it would. A migration of an entrepreneurial nation into one's homeland causes jealousy and resentment, plus the whole "fear of the other" thing. Would something else be used to justify these already existing feelings? The nature of human beings tells me there would. Either way, I was originally talking about theism as a philosophical concept, more than institutionalized religion, so I definitely don't disagree with your points completely...
Um... "entrepreneurial nation"? Really? You think the Jews just showed up in Germany one day en masse and got all "entrepreneurial" on the Germans, and that's what caused the resentment?
That's just not what happened, and it carries a stench of anti-Semitism all by itself.
I don't think it's possible to separate European anti-Semitism from the dominant Christianity of the region and time. Let's remember that it was only recently that the Catholic Church declared that the Jews were not to blame for killing Jesus. That was the dominant view of Jews among Christians for centuries.
Well no, they didn't just show up of course. But they did show up, they were different, they were hardworking because they were non-complacent and trying to make a better life for themselves after the exile. Religion was the main ideology of the day. Ideology, just like language, ethnicity and culture binds people into tribes. This was a case of one tribe not liking a newly arrived tribe. To oppress the new tribe, religion was used as a tool. I still don't see how you can point to religion as the ROOT, rather than other socio-economic factors. Why did Muslims in Spain get along with Jews for hundreds of years? Do you think there exists nothing negative about Judaism in the Islamic tradition?
I think organized religion has done probably more damage than anything else in history
Truth
It's not the organized religion itself, but the disorganized views of those who head the religions that lead their flocks astray that cause damage. Leading one group to kill in the name of God or another group to kill those who don't subscribe to their ideologies.
Man it's not even just the murdering I'm talking about though, it's about persecution of ideas, the setting science back 1000 years, and teaching people to be satisfied with cop out answers. If it were up to religions we'f still be cruising the universe on a game board on the back of a turtle or some shit.
Well no, they didn't just show up of course. But they did show up, they were different, they were hardworking because they were non-complacent and trying to make a better life for themselves after the exile. Religion was the main ideology of the day. Ideology, just like language, ethnicity and culture binds people into tribes. This was a case of one tribe not liking a newly arrived tribe. To oppress the new tribe, religion was used as a tool. I still don't see how you can point to religion as the ROOT, rather than other socio-economic factors. Why did Muslims in Spain get along with Jews for hundreds of years? Do you think there exists nothing negative about Judaism in the Islamic tradition?
They were "hardworking" but the Germans weren't? I just don't get what you're saying here.
The old "tribe" didn't like the new tribe based on religious prejudice. No particular other reason.
If you're going to try to use Muslim/Jew cohabitation as a basis for your argument you're going to lose and lose badly. Wow, they got along in Spain 500+ years ago! Awesome!
How have things been going recently?
And yeah, I know there are negatives against Judaism in the Muslim tradition. I'm trying to figure out how you think that counts against my point.
I can't see how it does. Not even a little bit. What are you arguing here? "Yes, there are negative feelings against Judaism in the Muslim tradition, but how can you say that amounts to a conflict between theisms?"
Really? "Hey, dude, yes, water is wet, but that doesn't mean it's MOIST." Really?
They were "hardworking" but the Germans weren't? I just don't get what you're saying here.
I didn't say anything about Germans.
The old "tribe" didn't like the new tribe based on religious prejudice. No particular other reason.
No, Bob. Ive outlines plenty of other reasons
If you're going to try to use Muslim/Jew cohabitation as a basis for your argument you're going to lose and lose badly. Wow, they got along in Spain 500+ years ago! Awesome!
Im using logic here. If there are plenty of examples showing a peaceful co-existence between religions in one state, that means that religion is not a NECESSARY impediment to peace. I dont understand how many times I can re-stress this point
How have things been going recently?
Not great.
And yeah, I know there are negatives against Judaism in the Muslim tradition. I'm trying to figure out how you think that counts against my point.
I can't see how it does. Not even a little bit. What are you arguing here? "Yes, there are negative feelings against Judaism in the Muslim tradition, but how can you say that amounts to a conflict between theisms?"
Really? "Hey, dude, yes, water is wet, but that doesn't mean it's MOIST." Really?
If there are negative feelings towards the theology of Judaism in Islam, but peaceful Jew/Muslim coexistence is a historical fact, that means that conflicts in religious theology do not necessitate social/political conflict. You're saying that the criticism towards Judaism in Christian theology is what caused German anti-semitism. I seriously dont know how you can make that leap.
Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, but the leadership was almost all anti-Christian, theologically speaking. Himmler felt Christianity in its Catholic/Protestant form was for the weak, perhaps influenced by Nietzche's writings. Nazis didn't kill because of God, that is certain. While they courted the support of the Church, they did it for manpower.
You are wrong.
Hitler was a Catholic who continued paying church tax until his death.
As a young man in Austria, Hitler was heavily influenced by the "Christlichsozialen Partei Oestereichs". Even though a strong admirer of Martin Luther, he remained loyal to the Catholic Church for his entire life.
The "Christlichsoziale Partei Oestereichs" had called themselves "Die Antisemiten" until 1893.
The Catholic and Protestant church had laid down the antisemitic groundwork which made the Holocaust possible.
Hitler wrote in a letter to Pope Pius XII about the prosecution of Jews: "Wir setzen fort das Werk der Katholischen Kirche" transl. "We are continuing the work of the catholic church"
The Catholic church collaborated with Nazi Germany. Singular Christians opposed the Nazi regime out of humanitarian principle but as a whole, the church was a collaborator.
If you look back in history however, you will find that the Catholic collaboration with Nazi Germany is only a side note in a long history of genocide and crimes against humanity committed by the Vatican.
The National Socialist government of Nazi Germany was, in my understanding, explicitly anti-Christian.
The official religion, to the degree there was one, was of Norse gods.
The Nazi's hated the Catholic church. The Vatican saw godless fascism as preferable to godless communism.
The relationship with the Lutheran church was more muted.
Also wrong, see my post above and read up on the contract called "Konkordat" signed between Nazi Germany and the Vatican on July 20th of 1933.
And on a more lighter note, you can take those new "Mother Teresa" stamps that I saw them peddling at the USPS office yesterday, lick them and put them far up where god's sun don't shine.
I have no idea whether there is a god or not. But I live by my own moral code that centers around doing right by myself and others, and if there is a god, I think it would be cool with how Im doing my thing.
I think Nietzsche's concept of Will to Power and the Superman is far more influential as far as Nazi ideology is concerned (master race, creation of the new German etc.)
Not to nitpick, but Nietzsche had no concept of a 'superman'. What you are referring to can only be understood as the 'overman' and is completely unrelated to any idea of a master race. Nietzsche spent page after page constructing long drawn out analogies and juxtapositions between 'over' and 'under' toward this end, and translating 'uber' as 'super' renders all of this nonsensical.
Nietzsche himself predicted that his writings, in about 50 years time, would be perverted and used to justify something 'great and terrible' that actually stood for everything he was against. He was correct almost to the year.
He was probably the first influential thinker of the time in Europe to rail against anti-Semitism (The Case Against Wagner) and was an enemy of nationalism. I would also point out that these positions cost him dearly financially and career-wise, as he was well aware they would.
I respect anyone and everyone's religious beliefs as long as when they practice it they don't harm others.
"harm" can be interpreted in various ways.
The freedom of press and free speech has been harmed by crazies killing each others over caricatures of a fairytale figure.
I feel my personal freedom harmed everytime I'm being forced to read a "Jesus Loves You" bumper sticker.
These stickers are the spiritual equivalent to those pervs who secretly masturbate on crowded subway trains and ejaculate onto the clothes of oblivious fellow passengers. I don't want the love of your imaginary magic friend. Everytime someone tells me "God bless you" I feel sullied. Keep that filth to yourself and contained within the privacy of your home.
We went down into the silver mines in Potosi Bolivia a few weeks back, when the miners are above ground they worship god, when they go below they worship the Devil, Tio. The duality of it all was crazy interesting. Every mine has one of these statues.
Comments
I have a religious moral dilemma. The catholic part of my family was raised in, and attends the church built by Charles Coughlin. There are a lot of aspects of catholocism that make me squeamish. So I was never too keen to attend weddings, etc. there. But I was also fascinated by the strange rituals and traditions.
Then as I grew and learned the church's history, I got more turned off. To the point where, when invited to my cousins catholic something-or-other (first communion?) a few years ago, I made an excuse not to go, and then felt guilty.
After all, I'm pretty sure none of the more recent generations are aware of the history. Also, should one man from the 30's taint a congregation from today? And, my little cousin is just a little kid who made no choice in the matter. But that place is just BAD vibes to me.
Funny reading this thread, just watched this last night, was left speechless. Would love to chop it up w krauss.
You could not possibly be more misinformed.
The Vatican was the first state to sign a treaty with the Reich, and Hitler remained a Catholic in good standing until his death.
There was no "official religion" dealing with "Norse gods." Nazis did want to run a state church but it would have been a Christian one. There's nothing unusual about that - just ask the Anglicans.
Christians have been running away from Hitler ever since he lost the war, but there was, of course, a very different opinion of him among German Christians before that happened. Most of them loved him.
I'm not the one who brought up genocide. You did that.
And, yeah, I think conflicts between theisms are absolutely related to the problems in the Middle East.
I don't know anyone who is saying liberal democracy is an absolute. The unique thing about theism is that theists see themselves as backed up by an eternal, almighty creature who is the sole arbiter of what is right and wrong. Who is the equivalent in "liberal democracy"?
The point about Luther is that vicious anti-Semitism had a centuries-long history in German culture. Widespread and present among a broad swathe of society. How well known do you think the writings of Nietzsche were? It seems absurd to me to look to Nietzsche instead of a cultural constant of long standing, but I guess that's the thing you have to do when you're compelled to make excuses for religion.
Yeah. It's like comparing Nena and her Luftballons to Beethoven.
I think Nietzsche's concept of Will to Power and the Superman is far more influential as far as Nazi ideology is concerned (master race, creation of the new German etc.) The root of European anti-Semitism is not theism - I just don't see evidence for it. The mere fact that there are plenty of examples of peaceful religious co-existence show that factor outside of religious ideology contribute to religious conflict.
Of course other factors contribute. I never said they didn't.
But the mere fact that you said "factor outside of religious ideology contribute to religious conflict" is an admission that the religious factor is a major element. Which is all that I was claiming.
By the way, if you don't see theistic factors at the root of European anti-Semitism it's only because you don't know that history very well. What else is at the root? Europeans hated kosher cuisine? Come on. I suggested that you read the Luther pamphlet. Here's a link:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1543_luther_jews.html
Maybe a Jewish kid beat him up once. Yeah, religion had nothing to do with it.
You're right, of course religion is a major element. But its the chicken or the egg question - would anti-Semitism spring up in Europe regardless of religion? I think it would. A migration of an entrepreneurial nation into one's homeland causes jealousy and resentment, plus the whole "fear of the other" thing. Would something else be used to justify these already existing feelings? The nature of human beings tells me there would. Either way, I was originally talking about theism as a philosophical concept, more than institutionalized religion, so I definitely don't disagree with your points completely...
Um... "entrepreneurial nation"? Really? You think the Jews just showed up in Germany one day en masse and got all "entrepreneurial" on the Germans, and that's what caused the resentment?
That's just not what happened, and it carries a stench of anti-Semitism all by itself.
I don't think it's possible to separate European anti-Semitism from the dominant Christianity of the region and time. Let's remember that it was only recently that the Catholic Church declared that the Jews were not to blame for killing Jesus. That was the dominant view of Jews among Christians for centuries.
Well no, they didn't just show up of course. But they did show up, they were different, they were hardworking because they were non-complacent and trying to make a better life for themselves after the exile. Religion was the main ideology of the day. Ideology, just like language, ethnicity and culture binds people into tribes. This was a case of one tribe not liking a newly arrived tribe. To oppress the new tribe, religion was used as a tool. I still don't see how you can point to religion as the ROOT, rather than other socio-economic factors. Why did Muslims in Spain get along with Jews for hundreds of years? Do you think there exists nothing negative about Judaism in the Islamic tradition?
Man it's not even just the murdering I'm talking about though, it's about persecution of ideas, the setting science back 1000 years, and teaching people to be satisfied with cop out answers. If it were up to religions we'f still be cruising the universe on a game board on the back of a turtle or some shit.
They were "hardworking" but the Germans weren't? I just don't get what you're saying here.
The old "tribe" didn't like the new tribe based on religious prejudice. No particular other reason.
If you're going to try to use Muslim/Jew cohabitation as a basis for your argument you're going to lose and lose badly. Wow, they got along in Spain 500+ years ago! Awesome!
How have things been going recently?
And yeah, I know there are negatives against Judaism in the Muslim tradition. I'm trying to figure out how you think that counts against my point.
I can't see how it does. Not even a little bit. What are you arguing here? "Yes, there are negative feelings against Judaism in the Muslim tradition, but how can you say that amounts to a conflict between theisms?"
Really? "Hey, dude, yes, water is wet, but that doesn't mean it's MOIST." Really?
No, Bob. Ive outlines plenty of other reasons
Im using logic here. If there are plenty of examples showing a peaceful co-existence between religions in one state, that means that religion is not a NECESSARY impediment to peace. I dont understand how many times I can re-stress this point
Not great.
If there are negative feelings towards the theology of Judaism in Islam, but peaceful Jew/Muslim coexistence is a historical fact, that means that conflicts in religious theology do not necessitate social/political conflict. You're saying that the criticism towards Judaism in Christian theology is what caused German anti-semitism. I seriously dont know how you can make that leap.
You are wrong.
Hitler was a Catholic who continued paying church tax until his death.
As a young man in Austria, Hitler was heavily influenced by the "Christlichsozialen Partei Oestereichs". Even though a strong admirer of Martin Luther, he remained loyal to the Catholic Church for his entire life.
The "Christlichsoziale Partei Oestereichs" had called themselves "Die Antisemiten" until 1893.
The Catholic and Protestant church had laid down the antisemitic groundwork which made the Holocaust possible.
Hitler wrote in a letter to Pope Pius XII about the prosecution of Jews: "Wir setzen fort das Werk der Katholischen Kirche" transl. "We are continuing the work of the catholic church"
The Catholic church collaborated with Nazi Germany. Singular Christians opposed the Nazi regime out of humanitarian principle but as a whole, the church was a collaborator.
If you look back in history however, you will find that the Catholic collaboration with Nazi Germany is only a side note in a long history of genocide and crimes against humanity committed by the Vatican.
Also wrong, see my post above and read up on the contract called "Konkordat" signed between Nazi Germany and the Vatican on July 20th of 1933.
I do not believe in God or Allah.
I do not consider myslef a spiritual person either; I believe in the power of everyday, earth-dwelling people.
Not to nitpick, but Nietzsche had no concept of a 'superman'. What you are referring to can only be understood as the 'overman' and is completely unrelated to any idea of a master race. Nietzsche spent page after page constructing long drawn out analogies and juxtapositions between 'over' and 'under' toward this end, and translating 'uber' as 'super' renders all of this nonsensical.
Nietzsche himself predicted that his writings, in about 50 years time, would be perverted and used to justify something 'great and terrible' that actually stood for everything he was against. He was correct almost to the year.
He was probably the first influential thinker of the time in Europe to rail against anti-Semitism (The Case Against Wagner) and was an enemy of nationalism. I would also point out that these positions cost him dearly financially and career-wise, as he was well aware they would.
Back to Godchat...
"harm" can be interpreted in various ways.
The freedom of press and free speech has been harmed by crazies killing each others over caricatures of a fairytale figure.
I feel my personal freedom harmed everytime I'm being forced to read a "Jesus Loves You" bumper sticker.
These stickers are the spiritual equivalent to those pervs who secretly masturbate on crowded subway trains and ejaculate onto the clothes of oblivious fellow passengers. I don't want the love of your imaginary magic friend. Everytime someone tells me "God bless you" I feel sullied. Keep that filth to yourself and contained within the privacy of your home.