Muslim, quite observant I guess, keep the 5 daily prayers.. I believe in a transcendent, genderless, eternal Force, Higher Power, Allah, God, Jehovah or whatever else has been the name that we call Him/Her/It.
I dont subscribe to the "organized religion is evil" notion. For a majority of religious people, religion is a framework of their world - their actions, their politics, their morality, their possessions, their eating etc. Certain aspects, will have to be "organized". In order to worship in a communal way, for example,organization is necessary - building a temple/church/mosque, administrating to its care, holding meeting etc. Sometimes this organization gives birth to unjust practices, which comes with the territory of people holding power. This is the case with companies, governments and anything else that is "organized". The only sure bet on not having these problems is viewing religion as only individual prayer/meditation. Which, for most religious people, is a small part of what religion means to them.
As far as science - I believe in science, because I cannot not believe. It is empirical. However, I also believe in the metaphysical - revelations, prophets, mystical experiences etc - which are not empirically based because they cannot be by design. I also think that all religious theologies are fundamentally similar. Including non-"theistic" religions, such as Buddhism or certain branches of Hinduism.
i was raised by an atheist sociology professor and my dad, who is a "devout atheist"
i got respect for anyone's moral code and means of understanding the world in which we live...as long as it isnt inflicting harm and pestilence on others. i got little patience for people who have "the answer" and who are forcing their enlightenment on others. but ive met and worked with more people than i can count who are strengthened to get through struggles and motivated to do good by their faith. so they should keep doing what works for them.
when i traveled around the country for a couple years, a bunch of things aligned in my head and heart (and soul?) to make me feel that nature is really what should be getting worshiped. humans are definitely a part of that, as are plants, ecosystems, animals and miami heat fans. humans are just part of the universal web of lifeforce...not the central agent of it and no more important than other pieces. nature can be understood by science, but never fully explained. it pulses in everything around us...it just is. in death, we become a different facet of it (like rotting compost) that regenerates life by feeding maggots, bacteria etc. and working its way back up the food chain. No shame in that. why would you want to embalm yourself with formaldehyde and keep yourself from becoming nourishment for the life around you?
i find it a little presumptuous to think that we as humans can explain creation and the motivations of the forces that created everything. we are inconsequential specs in this reality, but on the same token, we are a unified part with the universal fabric of natural life.
I have been watching religious youtubes.
Found a few I want to put up, but it is this irreligious one that made the cut.
I hope I don't offend anyone, but George Carlin is a funking genius.
Greatest of all time. I remember my pastor referencing Carlin in one of his sermons and some of the people in the congregation were like, "WHO?!" I was up in the soundboard area cracking up like crazy.
To me, an Atheist who claims they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no "God" is just as ignorant as the Christian/Muslim/Etc. who claim indisputably that there is a "God".
They may believe they're right, but in both cases it is a form of Faith, not facts.
I guess by classification I'd be an Agnostic, but I will always leave the window open that I may learn something one way or the other right down to my final breath.
I don't know a single atheist of the "would not accept actual evidence" camp. I also don't know of any who are attempting to ban gay marriage because their imaginary friend tells them it's bad, or who are trying to push pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" in public schools.
I'd like some examples of the terrible things atheists are supposed to be doing (in the name of atheism) to our society that match up with the innumerable cases of horrific shit being done by theists (in the name of their various sky fairies).
I'm thinking that most God believing people would say that denying the being that created them would be at the top of an atheists offenses.
BobDesperado said:
Rockadelic said:
To me, an Atheist who claims they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no "God" is just as ignorant as the Christian/Muslim/Etc. who claim indisputably that there is a "God".
They may believe they're right, but in both cases it is a form of Faith, not facts.
I guess by classification I'd be an Agnostic, but I will always leave the window open that I may learn something one way or the other right down to my final breath.
I don't know a single atheist of the "would not accept actual evidence" camp. I also don't know of any who are attempting to ban gay marriage because their imaginary friend tells them it's bad, or who are trying to push pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" in public schools.
I'd like some examples of the terrible things atheists are supposed to be doing (in the name of atheism) to our society that match up with the innumerable cases of horrific shit being done by theists (in the name of their various sky fairies).
I'm thinking that most God believing people's minds they would say that denying the being that created them would be at the top of an atheists offenses.
Fuck, I guess we should be stoned or burned at the stake for that supposed "offense," which has no impact on you or your beliefs whatsoever.
I disagree with you, though. Most believers I know aren't stupid enough or insecure enough in their faith to be offended by my lack of belief.
To me, an Atheist who claims they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no "God" is just as ignorant as the Christian/Muslim/Etc. who claim indisputably that there is a "God".
They may believe they're right, but in both cases it is a form of Faith, not facts.
I guess by classification I'd be an Agnostic, but I will always leave the window open that I may learn something one way or the other right down to my final breath.
I don't know a single atheist of the "would not accept actual evidence" camp. I also don't know of any who are attempting to ban gay marriage because their imaginary friend tells them it's bad, or who are trying to push pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" in public schools.
I'd like some examples of the terrible things atheists are supposed to be doing (in the name of atheism) to our society that match up with the innumerable cases of horrific shit being done by theists (in the name of their various sky fairies).
Not in our society. The twentieth century is a century of atheist-led massacres and oppression exemplified by the Soviets and various clones. Now, Im sure the answer is - no, its not atheism that's responsible. And I would say that's true, as there are plenty of more obvious social, economic and political factors. However, I wish that this courtesy would also be extended to theism.
I'm thinking that most God believing people's minds they would say that denying the being that created them would be at the top of an atheists offenses.
Fuck, I guess we should be stoned or burned at the stake for that supposed "offense," which has no impact on you or your beliefs whatsoever.
I disagree with you, though. Most believers I know aren't stupid enough or insecure enough in their faith to be offended by my lack of belief.
Classic overactive response, Bob. You never fail at that. My comment wasn't a shot at you it was an observation of what the general fundamentalist Christians and the like see atheists as. It is called an objective analysis.
To me, an Atheist who claims they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no "God" is just as ignorant as the Christian/Muslim/Etc. who claim indisputably that there is a "God".
They may believe they're right, but in both cases it is a form of Faith, not facts.
I guess by classification I'd be an Agnostic, but I will always leave the window open that I may learn something one way or the other right down to my final breath.
I don't know a single atheist of the "would not accept actual evidence" camp. I also don't know of any who are attempting to ban gay marriage because their imaginary friend tells them it's bad, or who are trying to push pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" in public schools.
I'd like some examples of the terrible things atheists are supposed to be doing (in the name of atheism) to our society that match up with the innumerable cases of horrific shit being done by theists (in the name of their various sky fairies).
You seem to be answering my post but I didn't claim anyone, atheist or believer, had done terrible things to anyone.
To me, an Atheist who claims they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no "God" is just as ignorant as the Christian/Muslim/Etc. who claim indisputably that there is a "God".
They may believe they're right, but in both cases it is a form of Faith, not facts.
I guess by classification I'd be an Agnostic, but I will always leave the window open that I may learn something one way or the other right down to my final breath.
I don't know a single atheist of the "would not accept actual evidence" camp. I also don't know of any who are attempting to ban gay marriage because their imaginary friend tells them it's bad, or who are trying to push pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" in public schools.
I'd like some examples of the terrible things atheists are supposed to be doing (in the name of atheism) to our society that match up with the innumerable cases of horrific shit being done by theists (in the name of their various sky fairies).
Not in our society. The twentieth century is a century of atheist-led massacres and oppression exemplified by the Soviets and various clones. Now, Im sure the answer is - no, its not atheism that's responsible. And I would say that's true, as there are plenty of more obvious social, economic and political factors. However, I wish that this courtesy would also be extended to theism.
Wow. That's especially funny. Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, not an atheistic one. The Turks who ran the Armenian Genocide were Muslims, were they not?
Russian Communism was a religion unto itself as far as I'm concerned, with atheism as a sidelight, not the main feature. Stalin (like Mao) made himself a godlike figure while promising the peasants a future paradise. Communism of that sort was a parody of religion. Not "you'll have pie in the sky when you die," but "your kids will have pie after the Glorious Revolution succeeds. But for now, no pie."
I'm talking about OUR society, right here, right now. Where Big Bad Atheists like Hitchens and Dawkins and Harris seem to be mostly guilty of saying mean things about religion. How terrible of them.
I'm thinking that most God believing people's minds they would say that denying the being that created them would be at the top of an atheists offenses.
Fuck, I guess we should be stoned or burned at the stake for that supposed "offense," which has no impact on you or your beliefs whatsoever.
I disagree with you, though. Most believers I know aren't stupid enough or insecure enough in their faith to be offended by my lack of belief.
Classic overactive response, Bob. You never fail at that. My comment wasn't a shot at you it was an observation of what the general fundamentalist Christians and the like see atheists as. It is called an objective analysis.
If you're attempting an "analysis" it might be a good idea to use more than one sentence.
It's not my fault you didn't say what you think you meant to say.
By the way, you said "most God believing people's minds." You in no way limited it to "general fundamentalist Christians and the like," who are just not a majority of "God believing people's." Classic dodge on your part. You never fail at that.
Objective analysis my divine hindquarters. (And if you don't get that reference, it's also not my fault.)
To me, an Atheist who claims they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no "God" is just as ignorant as the Christian/Muslim/Etc. who claim indisputably that there is a "God".
They may believe they're right, but in both cases it is a form of Faith, not facts.
I guess by classification I'd be an Agnostic, but I will always leave the window open that I may learn something one way or the other right down to my final breath.
I don't know a single atheist of the "would not accept actual evidence" camp. I also don't know of any who are attempting to ban gay marriage because their imaginary friend tells them it's bad, or who are trying to push pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" in public schools.
I'd like some examples of the terrible things atheists are supposed to be doing (in the name of atheism) to our society that match up with the innumerable cases of horrific shit being done by theists (in the name of their various sky fairies).
You seem to be answering my post but I didn't claim anyone, atheist or believer, had done terrible things to anyone.
I know. I guess we just measure ignorance in different ways.
To me, an Atheist who claims they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no "God" is just as ignorant as the Christian/Muslim/Etc. who claim indisputably that there is a "God".
They may believe they're right, but in both cases it is a form of Faith, not facts.
I guess by classification I'd be an Agnostic, but I will always leave the window open that I may learn something one way or the other right down to my final breath.
I don't know a single atheist of the "would not accept actual evidence" camp. I also don't know of any who are attempting to ban gay marriage because their imaginary friend tells them it's bad, or who are trying to push pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" in public schools.
I'd like some examples of the terrible things atheists are supposed to be doing (in the name of atheism) to our society that match up with the innumerable cases of horrific shit being done by theists (in the name of their various sky fairies).
Not in our society. The twentieth century is a century of atheist-led massacres and oppression exemplified by the Soviets and various clones. Now, Im sure the answer is - no, its not atheism that's responsible. And I would say that's true, as there are plenty of more obvious social, economic and political factors. However, I wish that this courtesy would also be extended to theism.
Wow. That's especially funny. Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, not an atheistic one. The Turks who ran the Armenian Genocide were Muslims, were they not?
Russian Communism was a religion unto itself as far as I'm concerned, with atheism as a sidelight, not the main feature. Stalin (like Mao) made himself a godlike figure while promising the peasants a future paradise. Communism of that sort was a parody of religion. Not "you'll have pie in the sky when you die," but "your kids will have pie after the Glorious Revolution succeeds. But for now, no pie."
I'm talking about OUR society, right here, right now. Where Big Bad Atheists like Hitchens and Dawkins and Harris seem to be mostly guilty of saying mean things about religion. How terrible of them.
Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, but the leadership was almost all anti-Christian, theologically speaking. Himmler felt Christianity in its Catholic/Protestant form was for the weak, perhaps influenced by Nietzche's writings. Nazis didn't kill because of God, that is certain. While they courted the support of the Church, they did it for manpower.
The Armenian Genocide was orchestrated by an extreme nationalist forces, who would later morph into the Young Turks - a secularist movement. They certainly didn't belong to the traditional religious class.
Your talk of communism being theistic is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, there was cult of personality and such, but belief in an omnipotent Creator God was virtually non-existent, which is what theism is defined as.
The point stands - theism, a belief in a higher power, is not at the root of the problems that are being ascribed to it.
Way to run instead of discussing the issues. You never fail at that. Objective analysis and all that.
Sometimes I think it's unfair when atheists accuse theists of smugness, but this is not one of those times. My initial response to you was entirely justified.
Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, but the leadership was almost all anti-Christian, theologically speaking. Himmler felt Christianity in its Catholic/Protestant form was for the weak, perhaps influenced by Nietzche's writings. Nazis didn't kill because of God, that is certain. While they courted the support of the Church, they did it for manpower.
The Armenian Genocide was orchestrated by an extreme nationalist forces, who would later morph into the Young Turks - a secularist movement. They certainly didn't belong to the traditional religious class.
Your talk of communism being theistic is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, there was cult of personality and such, but belief in an omnipotent Creator God was virtually non-existent, which is what theism is defined as.
The point stands - theism, a belief in a higher power, is not at the root of the problems that are being ascribed to it.
The Nietzsche influence on Nazi Germany was overblown. If you read "Mein Kampf" you'll find plenty of positive references to Jesus and Christianity, and if you read Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies" you'll find what looks like a blueprint for the early days of the Holocaust.
Killing off the Jews is inextricably linked to a long and ugly history of German anti-Semitism and I don't see how anyone can rationally deny that. I also don't see how anyone can fail to see the link between theism and the endless troubles in the Middle East, but maybe that's just me.
The problem may not be theism in and of itself, but when two groups of theists who have different conceptions of the sky fairy and what it wants have to coexist, problems seem to arise as often as not.
And I didn't say Communism was theistic. But it is (at least in the Stalin/Mao versions) a state religion. They even purged heretics. It's not like I'm the first person to make this argument.
The National Socialist government of Nazi Germany was, in my understanding, explicitly anti-Christian.
The official religion, to the degree there was one, was of Norse gods.
The Nazi's hated the Catholic church. The Vatican saw godless fascism as preferable to godless communism.
The relationship with the Lutheran church was more muted.
Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, but the leadership was almost all anti-Christian, theologically speaking. Himmler felt Christianity in its Catholic/Protestant form was for the weak, perhaps influenced by Nietzche's writings. Nazis didn't kill because of God, that is certain. While they courted the support of the Church, they did it for manpower.
The Armenian Genocide was orchestrated by an extreme nationalist forces, who would later morph into the Young Turks - a secularist movement. They certainly didn't belong to the traditional religious class.
Your talk of communism being theistic is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, there was cult of personality and such, but belief in an omnipotent Creator God was virtually non-existent, which is what theism is defined as.
The point stands - theism, a belief in a higher power, is not at the root of the problems that are being ascribed to it.
The Nietzsche influence on Nazi Germany was overblown. If you read "Mein Kampf" you'll find plenty of positive references to Jesus and Christianity, and if you read Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies" you'll find what looks like a blueprint for the early days of the Holocaust.
Killing off the Jews is inextricably linked to a long and ugly history of German anti-Semitism and I don't see how anyone can rationally deny that. I also don't see how anyone can fail to see the link between theism and the endless troubles in the Middle East, but maybe that's just me.
The problem may not be theism in and of itself, but when two groups of theists who have different conceptions of the sky fairy and what it wants have to coexist, problems seem to arise as often as not.
And I didn't say Communism was theistic. But it is (at least in the Stalin/Mao versions) a state religion. They even purged heretics. It's not like I'm the first person to make this argument.
You're all over the place Bob. If Nietzsche's influence is overblown, then so is Martin Luther's. Are we gonna start blaming the Nazi's on occultism, or the Vedas?
Is it theism that is causing the Middle East problems? Examples of peaceful religious co-existence are numerous.
As for Communism, then it is "religion" in the sense of "ideology". Semantics, as far as Im concerned. Can you term liberal democracy a religion, since people ascribe to it in numbers and propagate it as a political absolute?
I hope our bickering here doesn't stop people from sharing their religious views in this thread.
It's this same kind of bickering that happens amongst Christians of various denominations as well as the bickering amongst the Abrahamic faiths that I'm sure has turned off many people from the idea of subscribing to religion. I love to build with believers and non-believers because I feel as though I grow in faith the more my faith is challenged.
Comments
I dont subscribe to the "organized religion is evil" notion. For a majority of religious people, religion is a framework of their world - their actions, their politics, their morality, their possessions, their eating etc. Certain aspects, will have to be "organized". In order to worship in a communal way, for example,organization is necessary - building a temple/church/mosque, administrating to its care, holding meeting etc. Sometimes this organization gives birth to unjust practices, which comes with the territory of people holding power. This is the case with companies, governments and anything else that is "organized". The only sure bet on not having these problems is viewing religion as only individual prayer/meditation. Which, for most religious people, is a small part of what religion means to them.
As far as science - I believe in science, because I cannot not believe. It is empirical. However, I also believe in the metaphysical - revelations, prophets, mystical experiences etc - which are not empirically based because they cannot be by design. I also think that all religious theologies are fundamentally similar. Including non-"theistic" religions, such as Buddhism or certain branches of Hinduism.
Found a few I want to put up, but it is this irreligious one that made the cut.
I hope I don't offend anyone, but George Carlin is a funking genius.
i was raised by an atheist sociology professor and my dad, who is a "devout atheist"
i got respect for anyone's moral code and means of understanding the world in which we live...as long as it isnt inflicting harm and pestilence on others. i got little patience for people who have "the answer" and who are forcing their enlightenment on others. but ive met and worked with more people than i can count who are strengthened to get through struggles and motivated to do good by their faith. so they should keep doing what works for them.
when i traveled around the country for a couple years, a bunch of things aligned in my head and heart (and soul?) to make me feel that nature is really what should be getting worshiped. humans are definitely a part of that, as are plants, ecosystems, animals and miami heat fans. humans are just part of the universal web of lifeforce...not the central agent of it and no more important than other pieces. nature can be understood by science, but never fully explained. it pulses in everything around us...it just is. in death, we become a different facet of it (like rotting compost) that regenerates life by feeding maggots, bacteria etc. and working its way back up the food chain. No shame in that. why would you want to embalm yourself with formaldehyde and keep yourself from becoming nourishment for the life around you?
i find it a little presumptuous to think that we as humans can explain creation and the motivations of the forces that created everything. we are inconsequential specs in this reality, but on the same token, we are a unified part with the universal fabric of natural life.
Greatest of all time. I remember my pastor referencing Carlin in one of his sermons and some of the people in the congregation were like, "WHO?!" I was up in the soundboard area cracking up like crazy.
Just think how much land is used for graveyards. It's mind blowing!
You just reminded me of this.
I don't know a single atheist of the "would not accept actual evidence" camp. I also don't know of any who are attempting to ban gay marriage because their imaginary friend tells them it's bad, or who are trying to push pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" in public schools.
I'd like some examples of the terrible things atheists are supposed to be doing (in the name of atheism) to our society that match up with the innumerable cases of horrific shit being done by theists (in the name of their various sky fairies).
I like graveyards. Not a fan of formaldehyde, though.
Fuck, I guess we should be stoned or burned at the stake for that supposed "offense," which has no impact on you or your beliefs whatsoever.
I disagree with you, though. Most believers I know aren't stupid enough or insecure enough in their faith to be offended by my lack of belief.
Not in our society. The twentieth century is a century of atheist-led massacres and oppression exemplified by the Soviets and various clones. Now, Im sure the answer is - no, its not atheism that's responsible. And I would say that's true, as there are plenty of more obvious social, economic and political factors. However, I wish that this courtesy would also be extended to theism.
Classic overactive response, Bob. You never fail at that. My comment wasn't a shot at you it was an observation of what the general fundamentalist Christians and the like see atheists as. It is called an objective analysis.
You seem to be answering my post but I didn't claim anyone, atheist or believer, had done terrible things to anyone.
Wow. That's especially funny. Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, not an atheistic one. The Turks who ran the Armenian Genocide were Muslims, were they not?
Russian Communism was a religion unto itself as far as I'm concerned, with atheism as a sidelight, not the main feature. Stalin (like Mao) made himself a godlike figure while promising the peasants a future paradise. Communism of that sort was a parody of religion. Not "you'll have pie in the sky when you die," but "your kids will have pie after the Glorious Revolution succeeds. But for now, no pie."
I'm talking about OUR society, right here, right now. Where Big Bad Atheists like Hitchens and Dawkins and Harris seem to be mostly guilty of saying mean things about religion. How terrible of them.
If you're attempting an "analysis" it might be a good idea to use more than one sentence.
It's not my fault you didn't say what you think you meant to say.
By the way, you said "most God believing people's minds." You in no way limited it to "general fundamentalist Christians and the like," who are just not a majority of "God believing people's." Classic dodge on your part. You never fail at that.
Objective analysis my divine hindquarters. (And if you don't get that reference, it's also not my fault.)
I know. I guess we just measure ignorance in different ways.
Nazi Germany was a Christian nation, but the leadership was almost all anti-Christian, theologically speaking. Himmler felt Christianity in its Catholic/Protestant form was for the weak, perhaps influenced by Nietzche's writings. Nazis didn't kill because of God, that is certain. While they courted the support of the Church, they did it for manpower.
The Armenian Genocide was orchestrated by an extreme nationalist forces, who would later morph into the Young Turks - a secularist movement. They certainly didn't belong to the traditional religious class.
Your talk of communism being theistic is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, there was cult of personality and such, but belief in an omnipotent Creator God was virtually non-existent, which is what theism is defined as.
The point stands - theism, a belief in a higher power, is not at the root of the problems that are being ascribed to it.
Way to run instead of discussing the issues. You never fail at that. Objective analysis and all that.
Sometimes I think it's unfair when atheists accuse theists of smugness, but this is not one of those times. My initial response to you was entirely justified.
The Nietzsche influence on Nazi Germany was overblown. If you read "Mein Kampf" you'll find plenty of positive references to Jesus and Christianity, and if you read Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies" you'll find what looks like a blueprint for the early days of the Holocaust.
Killing off the Jews is inextricably linked to a long and ugly history of German anti-Semitism and I don't see how anyone can rationally deny that. I also don't see how anyone can fail to see the link between theism and the endless troubles in the Middle East, but maybe that's just me.
The problem may not be theism in and of itself, but when two groups of theists who have different conceptions of the sky fairy and what it wants have to coexist, problems seem to arise as often as not.
And I didn't say Communism was theistic. But it is (at least in the Stalin/Mao versions) a state religion. They even purged heretics. It's not like I'm the first person to make this argument.
Way to turn the other cheek and be all Jesus-y, brother.
And didn't Jesus ride an ass into Jerusalem? Yee-hah! What's wrong with asses?
The official religion, to the degree there was one, was of Norse gods.
The Nazi's hated the Catholic church. The Vatican saw godless fascism as preferable to godless communism.
The relationship with the Lutheran church was more muted.
You're all over the place Bob. If Nietzsche's influence is overblown, then so is Martin Luther's. Are we gonna start blaming the Nazi's on occultism, or the Vedas?
Is it theism that is causing the Middle East problems? Examples of peaceful religious co-existence are numerous.
As for Communism, then it is "religion" in the sense of "ideology". Semantics, as far as Im concerned. Can you term liberal democracy a religion, since people ascribe to it in numbers and propagate it as a political absolute?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany#Nazi_Attitudes_towards_Christianity
It's this same kind of bickering that happens amongst Christians of various denominations as well as the bickering amongst the Abrahamic faiths that I'm sure has turned off many people from the idea of subscribing to religion. I love to build with believers and non-believers because I feel as though I grow in faith the more my faith is challenged.