My "defense" of right wing rhetoric is based solely on the fact that the 1st amendment guarentees the right for that rhetoric to exsist.
That rationale is akin to saying you can yell fire in a crowded theatre thanks to the 1st amendment. Responsibility > rhetoric.
Moreover, no one is saying this rhetoric can't "exist". I think it's more the issue that public rhetoric comes with some level of public accountability.
I think this is the most succinct point made yet. Setting the media aside for a second, to my knowledge all of the politicians who used "gun imagery" during their campaigns, lost those elections. Sarah Palin, Sharon Angle, and the gentleman who ran against Congresswoman Giffords have all been rejected by the electorate. That's the way it's supposed to work in our country.
I'm feeling like this thread is losing coherency (again) because it's like...six of us trying to respond a single dude. I'm not suggesting Gonzo is trolling at all but I think our energies might find more productive use by avoiding more tit-for-tat-ing.
When exactly does the right to free speech give way to right to not fill the airwaves with harmful propaganda?
More at 11.
Just so I don't misunderstand you here, are you saying free speech should be limited?
It already is. Come on. How green are you?
Would you be allowed to run propaganda campaigns against an ethnic minority like they did in Nazi Germany. No of coarse not.
BUT WHAT ABOUT MY RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH!!!!
Would you be allowed to call Obama, or any other person of color, a black bastard on national tv? No of coarse not.
BUT WHAT ABOUT MY RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH!!!
Please be serious.
All of those things you just menioned happen on a daily basis. For the most part, they don't get mainstream coverage, and even if they did, most citizens would immediatley reject them.
I'm feeling like this thread is losing coherency (again) because it's like...six of us trying to respond a single dude. I'm not suggesting Gonzo is trolling at all but I think our energies might find more productive use by avoiding more tit-for-tat-ing.
Yeah. It's kinda my fault for pushing this discussion in the direction it's taken, but I feel strongly about 1st amendment issues. I take it for granted that we are all outraged over this autrocity, especially the lose of a 9 yr old child.
I felt this same way after 9/11. I was sure the government would clamp down on Free Speech, and I'm afraid it might happen now. Does this mean I'm afflicted by some sort of Alex Jones-esqe paranoia? Maybe, but there is a precident for government playing fast and loose with it's powers during a time of crisis.
Please be serious. All of those things you just menioned happen on a daily basis. For the most part, they don't get mainstream coverage, and even if they did, most citizens would immediatley reject them.
Please be serious. All of those things you just menioned happen on a daily basis. For the most part, they don't get mainstream coverage, and even if they did, most citizens would immediatley reject them.
Wait until the State of the Union address in a few weeks. GOP is (rightfully) shook and I can see the rumored splinters in their party becoming more pronounced as more moderate Republicans try to avoid any association with the far wing.
In each of Obama's SOTU addresses a Republican has chosen to act like an asshole right there in the chamber. (Joe Wilson, then Alito.) I can't recall this happening with a Democrat and a Republican president in my lifetime.
Will it happen a third time? It's not like there's any shortage of wigged-out candidates.
If you want specific examples, look at the symmetry between the "birthers" vs. the "truthers." Both camps base their beleifs on a lack of hard evidence. In response to your claim that there is no equivelant to right wing talk radio: ok. Maybe not on the radio. But what of ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, Media Matters, Daily Kos, Paul Krugman, Al Franken, Bill Mahr, and the entire entertainment industry? Are you saying anti Bush and anto conservative sentiments wern't given ample airtime by any of these outlets and individuals?
That's what you come back with?
Are you kidding?
Talk about a lack of hard evidence!
And, um, "the entire entertainment industry"? That fuckin' Carrot Top, man, what a bombthrower!
Nobody here, or any where else I know of, is talking about taking away first amendment rights.
Every one here (including you and Despero) agrees that what happened was a tragedy.
We all agree that Palin and Beck have a right to say what they want.
Most of us agree that the political tone is toxic.
Lets show a little respect for Herm, Tucson and the dead and wounded.
Please be serious. All of those things you just menioned happen on a daily basis. For the most part, they don't get mainstream coverage, and even if they did, most citizens would immediatley reject them.
Wait, what?
Now you are just trolling.
Um, ok?
Care to elaborate?
No, not really. You don't seem to have any kind of coherent point any more, apart from your admitted paranoia regarding free speech. You just seem to enjoy being a contrarian.
You make sweeping statements* presented as fact, that appear to be completely baseless. When asked back them up you just repeat the same thing or change the subject.
*not only in the context of the subject matter but also regarding the thread discussion in general.
If you want specific examples, look at the symmetry between the "birthers" vs. the "truthers." Both camps base their beleifs on a lack of hard evidence. In response to your claim that there is no equivelant to right wing talk radio: ok. Maybe not on the radio. But what of ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, Media Matters, Daily Kos, Paul Krugman, Al Franken, Bill Mahr, and the entire entertainment industry? Are you saying anti Bush and anto conservative sentiments wern't given ample airtime by any of these outlets and individuals?
That's what you come back with?
Are you kidding?
Talk about a lack of hard evidence!
And, um, "the entire entertainment industry"? That fuckin' Carrot Top, man, what a bombthrower!
I really don't want to argue with you anymore, but are you saying that there weren't several celbrities bashing the administration every chance they got, and they didn't exert any influence on our society.
MOVE THE FUCK ON PEOPLE. I'm looking at Bob, Okem and Gonzo right now.
Now...as for this...
BobDesperado said:
mannybolone said:
Wait until the State of the Union address in a few weeks. GOP is (rightfully) shook and I can see the rumored splinters in their party becoming more pronounced as more moderate Republicans try to avoid any association with the far wing.
In each of Obama's SOTU addresses a Republican has chosen to act like an asshole right there in the chamber. (Joe Wilson, then Alito.) I can't recall this happening with a Democrat and a Republican president in my lifetime.
Will it happen a third time? It's not like there's any shortage of wigged-out candidates.
Allowing for the fact that "anything can happen," I'd think there's going to be very tight discipline within the ranks for people to STFU and just let Obama do his thing. There's nothing to be gained - right now - for going all maverick-y.
I really don't want to argue with you anymore, but are you saying that there weren't several celbrities bashing the administration every chance they got, and they didn't exert any influence on our society.
The discussion wasn't about "bias" or "influence" or even "bashing." It was about violent imagery and extreme speech.
Other than that, I think I'm just going to let the beached jellyfish of your "argument" lay there and rot.
Please be serious. All of those things you just menioned happen on a daily basis. For the most part, they don't get mainstream coverage, and even if they did, most citizens would immediatley reject them.
Wait, what?
Now you are just trolling.
Um, ok?
Care to elaborate?
No, not really. You don't seem to have any kind of coherent point any more, apart from your admitted paranoia regarding free speech. You just seem to enjoy being a contrarian.
You make sweeping statements* presented as fact, that appear to be completely baseless. When asked back them up you just repeat the same thing or change the subject.
*not only in the context of the subject matter but also regarding the thread discussion in general.
Ok. You took issue with a point I made; I just wanted you to clarify it a bit.
I'll concede (as I already have) the point that my Free Speech worries might be premature, but I think I've stuck pretty close to my main point that this Loughner kid doesn't appear to be influenced by right wing motivations, extremist or otherwise. Fighting about who tosses out the more inflamatory rhetoric was an unfortunate tangent. I'm not going to take the time to search for equivlant rhetoric from as much as 10 years ago. I assume we're all old enough and smart enought to remember the climate back then. The only point I've made that I feel might've been off the reservation was assuming that many of you here would describe yourselves as liberal, and that maybe some of you can't or won't get past your own biases to see the "equivalency" of the rhetoric now and then.
Wait until the State of the Union address in a few weeks. GOP is (rightfully) shook and I can see the rumored splinters in their party becoming more pronounced as more moderate Republicans try to avoid any association with the far wing.
In each of Obama's SOTU addresses a Republican has chosen to act like an asshole right there in the chamber. (Joe Wilson, then Alito.) I can't recall this happening with a Democrat and a Republican president in my lifetime.
Will it happen a third time? It's not like there's any shortage of wigged-out candidates.
Allowing for the fact that "anything can happen," I'd think there's going to be very tight discipline within the ranks for people to STFU and just let Obama do his thing. There's nothing to be gained - right now - for going all maverick-y.
Are you sure? Joe Wilson's fundraising went through the roof even though he got slammed generally for his shitfit.
Are you sure? Joe Wilson's fundraising went through the roof even though he got slammed generally for his shitfit. .
Again, allowing for the possibility that anything can happen, I still think the political calculus on this is for people to STFU.
Think about the news cycles between now and the SOTU address - there will be more on the shooter, more on the recovery of the congresswoman, god-knows-how-much on the debate of how political rhetoric is impacting social relations, etc. etc.
None of this - politically - works to GOP advantages. There's little room to spin this in their favor; the best they can hope for is for it to blow over (or for something else to push this out of the conversation. That will, of course, eventually happen. But within the next two weeks? Unlikely.
So sure, some GOP congress-person could go for self and figure on "firing up the base" or whatever by acting the fool but given that this is a new congress, given than Boehner has a rep for being a no nonsense guy and given that the GOP is trying to shore up power with the middle and not alienate folks, I don't think this particular SOTU is going to get marred by interruptions.
The Republican Party counts most of the legal gun owners in our country as members. Therefore it should be no surprise that these are the folks that promote, endorse and actually go out and shoot guns......legally.
I don't own a gun.....never will....However, I've shot just about every kind of gun there is including fully automatic and semi-automatic weapons.....ironically, I only did so when a friend from the Netherlands was visiting and stated that he didn't want to see some crappy Football or Basketball game, he just wanted to shoot guns.....it was fun.....but I'll never do it again.
If there was a way to collect and destroy every single gun on the planet I'd be the first one to support it.....in reality that can't happen and I don't know of any way to get all guns out of the hands of those who will use them for harm....even with literally millions of legal and responsible gun owners in our country it only takes one nut to give them all a black eye.
Guns are illegal to own in Mexico........how's that working out.
Looking to place blame on the Tucson incident is a difficult one beyond the shooter himself....I have seen people point towards politics, drugs, gun laws, Satan worship, mental health authorities and media propaganda. While I bet a case could be made for each one by someone passionate enough about the topics, I can't get beyond blaming the shooter.
This won't be the last terrible mass killing we see in America.....we'll still see 25 people murdered on the streets of Chicago on any given week and other senseless murders motivated by a wide variety things and each and every one of them are as heinous and sad as what happened this weekend.
Blame can be found everywhere.....crappy childhood......poverty.....crappy parents......inadequate schools......drugs.......childhood abuse.......hate.......and apparently even words.
We can help fix this....but the very first step is with each and every individual, not with politicians, laws or reductions in personal freedoms.
Raise your kids right......spend time with them.......give them love and help them reach their dreams....communicate with them, if they have problems get them help.....this is what WE can do now....it won't solve it all but it will go a long way and we don't need a new law or support of a political party to do so.....just do it.
Or we can just point fingers away from the people who are actually responsible and never solve a damn thing, just widen the chasm that divides Americans......aren't you all tired of pointing fingers??
date="1294715953"]given than Boehner has a rep for being a no nonsense guy and given that the GOP is trying to shore up power with the middle and not alienate folks, I don't think this particular SOTU is going to get marred by interruptions.
Agreed.
Boehner is on the front lines trying to tamp down rhetoric and foster good relations across party lines.
Also, every Rep* is shook. They all want to feel safe shaking hands in their district, and right now they don't.
*Edit: by Rep I mean Congressional Representative, not Republican.
given than Boehner has a rep for being a no nonsense guy and given that the GOP is trying to shore up power with the middle and not alienate folks, I don't think this particular SOTU is going to get marred by interruptions.
Agreed.
Boehner is on the front lines trying to tamp down rhetoric and foster good relations across party lines.
Also, every Rep is shook. They all want to feel safe shaking hands in their district, and right now they don't.
That's some real shit right there.
Related: I was surprised at the fact that no sitting congressperson has been killed since Jonestown...we're talking over 30 years ago. Maybe that says something for the actual STABILITY of our society though I think it says more about how politicians are insulated from the violence that affects normal citizens
given than Boehner has a rep for being a no nonsense guy and given that the GOP is trying to shore up power with the middle and not alienate folks, I don't think this particular SOTU is going to get marred by interruptions.
Agreed.
Boehner is on the front lines trying to tamp down rhetoric and foster good relations across party lines.
Also, every Rep is shook. They all want to feel safe shaking hands in their district, and right now they don't.
That's some real shit right there.
Related: I was surprised at the fact that no sitting congressperson has been killed since Jonestown...we're talking over 30 years ago. Maybe that says something for the actual STABILITY of our society though I think it says more about how politicians are insulated from the violence that affects normal citizens
I don't think they are that insulated. Some walk to lunch around Capitol Hill. Some take Metro and AmTrak. They all shake hands in public.
On the other hand, the average income in the HoR is something like $900,000*, so they aint just like you and me.
The Republican Party counts most of the legal gun owners in our country as members. Therefore it should be no surprise that these are the folks that promote, endorse and actually go out and shoot guns......legally.
I don't own a gun.....never will....However, I've shot just about every kind of gun there is including fully automatic and semi-automatic weapons.....ironically, I only did so when a friend from the Netherlands was visiting and stated that he didn't want to see some crappy Football or Basketball game, he just wanted to shoot guns.....it was fun.....but I'll never do it again.
If there was a way to collect and destroy every single gun on the planet I'd be the first one to support it.....in reality that can't happen and I don't know of any way to get all guns out of the hands of those who will use them for harm....even with literally millions of legal and responsible gun owners in our country it only takes one nut to give them all a black eye.
Guns are illegal to own in Mexico........how's that working out.
Looking to place blame on the Tucson incident is a difficult one beyond the shooter himself....I have seen people point towards politics, drugs, gun laws, Satan worship, mental health authorities and media propaganda. While I bet a case could be made for each one by someone passionate enough about the topics, I can't get beyond blaming the shooter.
This won't be the last terrible mass killing we see in America.....we'll still see 25 people murdered on the streets of Chicago on any given week and other senseless murders motivated by a wide variety things and each and every one of them are as heinous and sad as what happened this weekend.
Blame can be found everywhere.....crappy childhood......poverty.....crappy parents......inadequate schools......drugs.......childhood abuse.......hate.......and apparently even words.
We can help fix this....but the very first step is with each and every individual, not with politicians, laws or reductions in personal freedoms.
Raise your kids right......spend time with them.......give them love and help them reach their dreams....communicate with them, if they have problems get them help.....this is what WE can do now....it won't solve it all but it will go a long way and we don't need a new law or support of a political party to do so.....just do it.
Or we can just point fingers away from the people who are actually responsible and never solve a damn thing, just widen the chasm that divides Americans......aren't you all tired of pointing fingers??
Comments
Would you be allowed to run propaganda campaigns against an ethnic minority like they did in Nazi Germany. No of coarse not.
BUT WHAT ABOUT MY RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH!!!!
Would you be allowed to call Obama, or any other person of color, a black bastard on national tv? No of coarse not.
BUT WHAT ABOUT MY RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH!!!
Not to mention McCarthyism. Where was their right to free speech?
I think this is the most succinct point made yet. Setting the media aside for a second, to my knowledge all of the politicians who used "gun imagery" during their campaigns, lost those elections. Sarah Palin, Sharon Angle, and the gentleman who ran against Congresswoman Giffords have all been rejected by the electorate. That's the way it's supposed to work in our country.
Please be serious.
All of those things you just menioned happen on a daily basis. For the most part, they don't get mainstream coverage, and even if they did, most citizens would immediatley reject them.
Oh, and I'm not green at all. I'm more of a tannish beige sort of color.
you sound white
Extreme left or extreme right, it' is difficult for me to listen to someone's argument when they get very passionate.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/01/lets-get-this-straight.html
I said "should be". I'm fairly certain it won't be, but it's all I'm going to add to that discussion.
Yeah. It's kinda my fault for pushing this discussion in the direction it's taken, but I feel strongly about 1st amendment issues. I take it for granted that we are all outraged over this autrocity, especially the lose of a 9 yr old child.
I felt this same way after 9/11. I was sure the government would clamp down on Free Speech, and I'm afraid it might happen now. Does this mean I'm afflicted by some sort of Alex Jones-esqe paranoia? Maybe, but there is a precident for government playing fast and loose with it's powers during a time of crisis.
Now you are just trolling.
Um, ok?
Care to elaborate?
Comments are worth scanning - someone posted a "lefty list" in response but it's sort of telling how weak the "counter" evidence is.
Not related but also worth reading, especially in light of what's being said in this thread: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/loughner-lovelle-mixon-and-our-quest-for-narratives/69261/
I thought Julianne did a really good job of discussing the desire for narrative and the challenges that come with it.
In each of Obama's SOTU addresses a Republican has chosen to act like an asshole right there in the chamber. (Joe Wilson, then Alito.) I can't recall this happening with a Democrat and a Republican president in my lifetime.
Will it happen a third time? It's not like there's any shortage of wigged-out candidates.
That's what you come back with?
Are you kidding?
Talk about a lack of hard evidence!
And, um, "the entire entertainment industry"? That fuckin' Carrot Top, man, what a bombthrower!
You know it won't be, because, like, some leftists laughed when that Iraqi threw his shoes at Bush. Or something.
Nobody here, or any where else I know of, is talking about taking away first amendment rights.
Every one here (including you and Despero) agrees that what happened was a tragedy.
We all agree that Palin and Beck have a right to say what they want.
Most of us agree that the political tone is toxic.
Lets show a little respect for Herm, Tucson and the dead and wounded.
You make sweeping statements* presented as fact, that appear to be completely baseless. When asked back them up you just repeat the same thing or change the subject.
*not only in the context of the subject matter but also regarding the thread discussion in general.
I really don't want to argue with you anymore, but are you saying that there weren't several celbrities bashing the administration every chance they got, and they didn't exert any influence on our society.
"You're an idiot"
"No, I'm not"
Repeat ad nauseum.
MOVE THE FUCK ON PEOPLE. I'm looking at Bob, Okem and Gonzo right now.
Now...as for this...
Allowing for the fact that "anything can happen," I'd think there's going to be very tight discipline within the ranks for people to STFU and just let Obama do his thing. There's nothing to be gained - right now - for going all maverick-y.
The discussion wasn't about "bias" or "influence" or even "bashing." It was about violent imagery and extreme speech.
Other than that, I think I'm just going to let the beached jellyfish of your "argument" lay there and rot.
Ok. You took issue with a point I made; I just wanted you to clarify it a bit.
I'll concede (as I already have) the point that my Free Speech worries might be premature, but I think I've stuck pretty close to my main point that this Loughner kid doesn't appear to be influenced by right wing motivations, extremist or otherwise. Fighting about who tosses out the more inflamatory rhetoric was an unfortunate tangent. I'm not going to take the time to search for equivlant rhetoric from as much as 10 years ago. I assume we're all old enough and smart enought to remember the climate back then. The only point I've made that I feel might've been off the reservation was assuming that many of you here would describe yourselves as liberal, and that maybe some of you can't or won't get past your own biases to see the "equivalency" of the rhetoric now and then.
Are you sure? Joe Wilson's fundraising went through the roof even though he got slammed generally for his shitfit.
I'm predicting Ben Quayle moons Obama.
Fair enough.
Again, allowing for the possibility that anything can happen, I still think the political calculus on this is for people to STFU.
Think about the news cycles between now and the SOTU address - there will be more on the shooter, more on the recovery of the congresswoman, god-knows-how-much on the debate of how political rhetoric is impacting social relations, etc. etc.
None of this - politically - works to GOP advantages. There's little room to spin this in their favor; the best they can hope for is for it to blow over (or for something else to push this out of the conversation. That will, of course, eventually happen. But within the next two weeks? Unlikely.
So sure, some GOP congress-person could go for self and figure on "firing up the base" or whatever by acting the fool but given that this is a new congress, given than Boehner has a rep for being a no nonsense guy and given that the GOP is trying to shore up power with the middle and not alienate folks, I don't think this particular SOTU is going to get marred by interruptions.
The Republican Party counts most of the legal gun owners in our country as members. Therefore it should be no surprise that these are the folks that promote, endorse and actually go out and shoot guns......legally.
I don't own a gun.....never will....However, I've shot just about every kind of gun there is including fully automatic and semi-automatic weapons.....ironically, I only did so when a friend from the Netherlands was visiting and stated that he didn't want to see some crappy Football or Basketball game, he just wanted to shoot guns.....it was fun.....but I'll never do it again.
If there was a way to collect and destroy every single gun on the planet I'd be the first one to support it.....in reality that can't happen and I don't know of any way to get all guns out of the hands of those who will use them for harm....even with literally millions of legal and responsible gun owners in our country it only takes one nut to give them all a black eye.
Guns are illegal to own in Mexico........how's that working out.
Looking to place blame on the Tucson incident is a difficult one beyond the shooter himself....I have seen people point towards politics, drugs, gun laws, Satan worship, mental health authorities and media propaganda. While I bet a case could be made for each one by someone passionate enough about the topics, I can't get beyond blaming the shooter.
This won't be the last terrible mass killing we see in America.....we'll still see 25 people murdered on the streets of Chicago on any given week and other senseless murders motivated by a wide variety things and each and every one of them are as heinous and sad as what happened this weekend.
Blame can be found everywhere.....crappy childhood......poverty.....crappy parents......inadequate schools......drugs.......childhood abuse.......hate.......and apparently even words.
We can help fix this....but the very first step is with each and every individual, not with politicians, laws or reductions in personal freedoms.
Raise your kids right......spend time with them.......give them love and help them reach their dreams....communicate with them, if they have problems get them help.....this is what WE can do now....it won't solve it all but it will go a long way and we don't need a new law or support of a political party to do so.....just do it.
Or we can just point fingers away from the people who are actually responsible and never solve a damn thing, just widen the chasm that divides Americans......aren't you all tired of pointing fingers??
Agreed.
Boehner is on the front lines trying to tamp down rhetoric and foster good relations across party lines.
Also, every Rep* is shook. They all want to feel safe shaking hands in their district, and right now they don't.
*Edit: by Rep I mean Congressional Representative, not Republican.
That's some real shit right there.
Related: I was surprised at the fact that no sitting congressperson has been killed since Jonestown...we're talking over 30 years ago. Maybe that says something for the actual STABILITY of our society though I think it says more about how politicians are insulated from the violence that affects normal citizens
I don't think they are that insulated. Some walk to lunch around Capitol Hill. Some take Metro and AmTrak. They all shake hands in public.
On the other hand, the average income in the HoR is something like $900,000*, so they aint just like you and me.
*Much higher in the Senate.