And then when she responds to this assinine, completely batshit crazy accusation, you accuse her of trying to make this all about her and play the victim.
.
the fact she responds with such a defensive tone and a victim mentality is what is fucked up. If you are Sarah Palin, you offer condolences, condemn the act and then shut the fuck up...going on to lecture people on right and wrong and use terms like Blood Libel is a straight up selfish, bullshit move at this time. Her map and rhetoric are curiously topical at this moment and to think it isnt worth to at least be brought up is ridiculous. She should know this. But she doesnt, because she is a dolt.
Unless you are Jewish and falsely being accused of kidnapping Christian children for ritual blood sacrifice, find another word. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
Sigh.
Already, The National Jewish Democratic Council (NJDC) and J Street are condemning the use of the term. I am sure more are to follow.
And then when she responds to this assinine, completely batshit crazy accusation, you accuse her of trying to make this all about her and play the victim.
.
the fact she responds with such a defensive tone and a victim mentality is what is fucked up. If you are Sarah Palin, you offer condolences, condemn the act and then shut the fuck up...going on to lecture people on right and wrong and use terms like Blood Libel is a straight up selfish, bullshit move at this time. Her map and rhetoric are curiously topical at this moment and to think it isnt worth to at least be brought up is ridiculous. She should know this. But she doesnt, because she is a dolt.
so because someone else brought the points up, they are not valid? I havent read any of those articles...but thanks for the links, good to know I made some lucid, print worthy points. for the record, I have been calling Sarah a dolt since the election.
Getting mental health treatment should be easier than buying a gun.
I believe it is.
Unless by "Getting mental health treatment" you mean free of charge.
I disagree, but that's ok.
Have you ever tried to get mental health treatment?
Has a family member? A friend?
I'm not talking about going to some expensive Park Ave psychoanalyst.
I am talking about getting treatment for a mental disorder.
Unless you are skilled at navigating health care and insurance bureaucracies it is very difficult. And expensive.
On the other hand, in Arizona, you can walk into any Walmart, or numerous other outlets along any stretch of commercial road, and walk out with a semi-automatic weapon and extended clips. No hassles.
here is howie kurtz's take on palin's use of "blood libel". despite what some dude said upthread, howie isn't an ideological partisan cheerleading for any one side.
the talk in political circles has been that Sarah Palin had a rare opportunity in the wake of the Tucson tragedy to reach out beyond her base and recalibrate her image beyond that of a gun-toting mama grizzly.
After all, the strategists said, there was some sympathy for her???beyond the Palin-haters???for being tied to the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords, even if she had erred with her ???reload??? talk and by posting that map with the gun-sight targets last year.
Instead, Palin chose to throw kerosene on the embers of a smoldering national controversy.
???Especially within hours of a tragedy unfolding,??? Palin said in a video on her Facebook page, ???journalists and pundits should not manufacture a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn. That is reprehensible.???
Blood libel, for those who are not familiar, describes a false accusation that minorities???usually Jews???murder children to use their blood in religious rituals, and has been a historical theme in the persecution of the Jewish people.
Had Palin scoured a thesaurus, she could not have come up with a more inflammatory phrase.
As someone who has argued that linking her rhetoric to the hateful violence of Jared Loughner is unfair, I can imagine that the former governor was angry about how liberal detractors dragged her into this story. But after days of silence, she had a chance to speak to the country in a calmer, more inclusive way. She could have said that all of us, including her, needed to avoid excessively harsh or military-style language, without retreating one inch from her strongly held beliefs.
Instead she went the blood libel route.
She added that blame for the shooting of 20 people should rest ???not with all the citizens of a state, not with those who listen to talk radio, not with maps of swing districts used by both sides of the aisle, not with law-abiding citizens who respectfully exercise their First Amendment rights at campaign rallies, not with those who proudly voted in the last election.???
With her defiant video, Palin continued???no, escalated???her war with the press, which plays so well with her strongest supporters (despite a recent thaw in which she actually granted a few interviews to the lamestream media). She continued her us-versus-them approach to political discourse. She punched back at critics rather than trying to fashion a unifying message.
I would say that sounds like the response of someone who wants to stoke her base and further her lucrative career as a culture warrior???not someone who is plotting to run for president.
I was expecting Saba to be one of the first people to post in this thread.
I thought he would post a joke about how funny the whole thing was. As he has done in the past.
I never thought he would pop up days late to defend Sarah Paling. Sarah Palin? Really?
And then when she responds to this assinine, completely batshit crazy accusation, you accuse her of trying to make this all about her and play the victim.
.
the fact she responds with such a defensive tone and a victim mentality is what is fucked up. If you are Sarah Palin, you offer condolences, condemn the act and then shut the fuck up...going on to lecture people on right and wrong and use terms like Blood Libel is a straight up selfish, bullshit move at this time. Her map and rhetoric are curiously topical at this moment and to think it isnt worth to at least be brought up is ridiculous. She should know this. But she doesnt, because she is a dolt.
And then when she responds to this assinine, completely batshit crazy accusation, you accuse her of trying to make this all about her and play the victim.
.
the fact she responds with such a defensive tone and a victim mentality is what is fucked up. If you are Sarah Palin, you offer condolences, condemn the act and then shut the fuck up...going on to lecture people on right and wrong and use terms like Blood Libel is a straight up selfish, bullshit move at this time. Her map and rhetoric are curiously topical at this moment and to think it isnt worth to at least be brought up is ridiculous. She should know this. But she doesnt, because she is a dolt.
Thank you, the_hook_up for that. It was the tone of her response (basically "Im a victim!") that made her out to be the victim. My point was obvious to anyone whose life is not totally scripted by right wing talking points.
I appreciate that you responded to saba since I prefer not to.
It is not as easy as all that. Practical issues such as information, access and price aside, the stigma and shame and 'not-us' attached to mental illness is what stops a lot of people. Unless there is a direct confrontation and a court-ordered assessment happens, I think most people let a lot of behaviour and warning signs slide on by. Also - if we separate the shooting from all his previous behaviour, would we say this is a person who needs help? I may have missed something about his history, but from what I've read, I can't say his friends or family missed any big signs.
How Loughner didn't "fit in" is not really in the same category as how Cho didn't "fit in".
Getting mental health treatment should be easier than buying a gun.
What was preventing him or his parents from getting help?
Was he rejected somewhere?
The main thing that prevented this young man from getting help was folks recognizing his symptoms and getting him evaluated. His first episode seems to have happened in the last year (this is from what has been reported so far, it is possible the signs were there earlier) and as an adult it is much harder to force someone into treatment.
So let us, for the sake of argument, say he gets a diagnosis that he is a paranoid schizophrenic. Most insurance is not going to cover psychiatric care. That's if he has health care. I can tell you, unless the family has deep pockets, the only way he is getting care is from state sponsored mental health.
Most mental health is picked up my local government (usually the state). We as a country have closed down most state facilities for long term hospitalized care and do out patient care. We now have most of our severely mentally ill population living in state assisted living (best possible world) or on the streets (more likely). The rest are in jail when they run afoul of the law. Basically we closed the hospitals and now house a lot these folks in prison where they get almost no care for their mental illness.
All of this doesn't address the general ignorance about mental illness or the stigma attached to it. The parents are reportedly wondering what they did wrong in raising their child. Schizophrenia is genetic. The fact is no amount of parenting can compensate for a complete psychotic break with reality.
He was living with them and they had to have seen his mental state crumble, they either were in denial or did not recognize their son's condition.
The college he attended had plenty of indicators he was in mental distress and they booted him unless he got a mental evaluation. Why they didn't turn him in as per Arizona law and force the issue is beyond me.
Yes.....some folks here know that my business partner had serious mental health issues and I was the one who was charged, by default, to help get him mental health treatment.
Getting treatment wasn't difficult, but neither was buying the gun that he ultimately killed himself with.
To get a gun you have to through FBI clearance etc - what do you have to go through to get mental health treatment?
Where do you get your information?
You don't need to go through any clearance at all to buy a gun in Arizona. All you need is a pulse and a method of payment.
And I'm not sure about the pulse.
Actually he did have an FBI background check, he passed. The check only searches for past criminal behavior that would flag him as ineligible to own a gun. Since he was not diagnosed as mentally ill (and frankly a lot of states don't report their mentally ill to the national list) we are only screening those who have already done bad behavior or are in the mental health system.
To get a gun you have to through FBI clearance etc - what do you have to go through to get mental health treatment?
Where do you get your information?
You don't need to go through any clearance at all to buy a gun in Arizona. All you need is a pulse and a method of payment.
And I'm not sure about the pulse.
Actually he did have an FBI background check, he passed. The check only searches for past criminal behavior that would flag him as ineligible to own a gun. Since he was not diagnosed as mentally ill (and frankly a lot of states don't report their mentally ill to the national list) we are only screening those who have already done bad behavior or are in the mental health system.
How do they do this "background check" if there's no waiting period?
It's not like you just walk up to the counter and order mental health care.
"hmmmm, what do I want, what do I want? I'm feeling a little CRAZY today! Something different... I'll try the mental health care I think. Sauce on the side?"
Didn't he go to one Walmart and get denied because the guy working thought he was acting odd, only to go to another and get what he needed? Is that true?
Yes.....some folks here know that my business partner had serious mental health issues and I was the one who was charged, by default, to help get him mental health treatment.
Getting treatment wasn't difficult, but neither was buying the gun that he ultimately killed himself with.
I'm really sorry for your loss.
I could have been more sensitive in my (earlier) reply.
Comments
I think you hit all the memo's talking points.
"Blood libel" http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/breaking_adl_condemns_sarah_pa.html
check
because she is a dolt. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/137411-clyburn-palin-intellectually-not-to-be-able-to-understand-whats-going-on-here
check
Blood Libel...
Unless you are Jewish and falsely being accused of kidnapping Christian children for ritual blood sacrifice, find another word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
Sigh.
Already, The National Jewish Democratic Council (NJDC) and J Street are condemning the use of the term. I am sure more are to follow.
so because someone else brought the points up, they are not valid? I havent read any of those articles...but thanks for the links, good to know I made some lucid, print worthy points. for the record, I have been calling Sarah a dolt since the election.
This is just the excuse you guys need to let Sarah go back to being that fake frontieresse writing books and cashing checks. I don't get it.
I believe it is.
Unless by "Getting mental health treatment" you mean free of charge.
TELL YOUR MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES TO PULL UP THEIR DAMN BOOTSTRAPS.
USA
USA
USA
USA
Not sure why you are asking. Since I never suggested that.
I disagree, but that's ok.
Have you ever tried to get mental health treatment?
Has a family member? A friend?
I'm not talking about going to some expensive Park Ave psychoanalyst.
I am talking about getting treatment for a mental disorder.
Unless you are skilled at navigating health care and insurance bureaucracies it is very difficult. And expensive.
On the other hand, in Arizona, you can walk into any Walmart, or numerous other outlets along any stretch of commercial road, and walk out with a semi-automatic weapon and extended clips. No hassles.
Quite an interpretation.
b/w
No free guns either.
I thought he would post a joke about how funny the whole thing was. As he has done in the past.
I never thought he would pop up days late to defend Sarah Paling. Sarah Palin? Really?
You clearly did.
You said getting a gun was easier, which implies that there is some kind of obstacle.
To get a gun you have to through FBI clearance etc - what do you have to go through to get mental health treatment?
It seems that Loughner and his parents weren't interested in getting any help, which is unfortunate, but nothing was stopping them.
BTW, I think it is way too easy to buy automatic weapons.
I think it's fair to say that Palin is just as intelligent as Sabadabado.
Thank you, the_hook_up for that. It was the tone of her response (basically "Im a victim!") that made her out to be the victim. My point was obvious to anyone whose life is not totally scripted by right wing talking points.
I appreciate that you responded to saba since I prefer not to.
I said: Getting mental health treatment should be easier than buying a gun.
I still think it should be easier.
I did not say any thing about JLL or his parents.
Where do you get your information?
You don't need to go through any clearance at all to buy a gun in Arizona. All you need is a pulse and a method of payment.
And I'm not sure about the pulse.
How Loughner didn't "fit in" is not really in the same category as how Cho didn't "fit in".
The main thing that prevented this young man from getting help was folks recognizing his symptoms and getting him evaluated. His first episode seems to have happened in the last year (this is from what has been reported so far, it is possible the signs were there earlier) and as an adult it is much harder to force someone into treatment.
So let us, for the sake of argument, say he gets a diagnosis that he is a paranoid schizophrenic. Most insurance is not going to cover psychiatric care. That's if he has health care. I can tell you, unless the family has deep pockets, the only way he is getting care is from state sponsored mental health.
Most mental health is picked up my local government (usually the state). We as a country have closed down most state facilities for long term hospitalized care and do out patient care. We now have most of our severely mentally ill population living in state assisted living (best possible world) or on the streets (more likely). The rest are in jail when they run afoul of the law. Basically we closed the hospitals and now house a lot these folks in prison where they get almost no care for their mental illness.
All of this doesn't address the general ignorance about mental illness or the stigma attached to it. The parents are reportedly wondering what they did wrong in raising their child. Schizophrenia is genetic. The fact is no amount of parenting can compensate for a complete psychotic break with reality.
He was living with them and they had to have seen his mental state crumble, they either were in denial or did not recognize their son's condition.
The college he attended had plenty of indicators he was in mental distress and they booted him unless he got a mental evaluation. Why they didn't turn him in as per Arizona law and force the issue is beyond me.
It is easier - what is your point, then?
Getting treatment wasn't difficult, but neither was buying the gun that he ultimately killed himself with.
Actually he did have an FBI background check, he passed. The check only searches for past criminal behavior that would flag him as ineligible to own a gun. Since he was not diagnosed as mentally ill (and frankly a lot of states don't report their mentally ill to the national list) we are only screening those who have already done bad behavior or are in the mental health system.
It is NOT easier - unless you think you can walk into a storefront in Arizona and buy mental health care with no questions asked.
How do they do this "background check" if there's no waiting period?
b/w
It's not like you just walk up to the counter and order mental health care.
"hmmmm, what do I want, what do I want? I'm feeling a little CRAZY today! Something different... I'll try the mental health care I think. Sauce on the side?"
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0110/Why-Jared-Loughner-was-allowed-to-buy-a-gun
I'm really sorry for your loss.
I could have been more sensitive in my (earlier) reply.
oswalt is killing it with the #palin tags.