I'm not going to try and go through and cherry pick. The entire outlook is one of a person who sees people, foremost, as black or white and in my opinion that's the definition of racism.
I'm not going to try and go through and cherry pick. The entire outlook is one of a person who sees people, foremost, as black or white and in my opinion that's the definition of racism.
The entire outlook is one of a person who sees people, foremost, as black or white and in my opinion that's the definition of racism.
Really? I am surprised!
Is it that they see them as black or white or that they attribute characteristics to whiteness or blackness?
Ignoring someone's race is negating their identity. We're no better off.
When I say "see them as black or white" I don't mean see with their eyes, or recognize that a person is black or white. I mean you view them through a lens that attributes characteristics.
The entire outlook is one of a person who sees people, foremost, as black or white and in my opinion that's the definition of racism.
Really? I am surprised!
Is it that they see them as black or white or that they attribute characteristics to whiteness or blackness?
Ignoring someone's race is negating their identity. We're no better off.
I really don't see the difference. When I say "see them as black or white" I don't mean see with their eyes, or recognize that a person is black or white. I mean you view them through a lens that attributes characteristics.
The entire outlook is one of a person who sees people, foremost, as black or white and in my opinion that's the definition of racism.
Really? I am surprised!
Is it that they see them as black or white or that they attribute characteristics to whiteness or blackness?
Ignoring someone's race is negating their identity. We're no better off.
When I say "see them as black or white" I don't mean see with their eyes, or recognize that a person is black or white. I mean you view them through a lens that attributes characteristics.
No Bassie. I don't think I did. I pointed out the same inconsistency in the argument that people who opposed the mosque at WTC were racist because they attributed the acts of terrorists with all of islam. But the people who supported it were not racist even though they attributed all the acts of violence against muslims to anyone who disagreed with them.
Really. Because this kind of sounds like you are calling me a racist. And, no offense, but if you're not up to the converation than you probably shouldn't say things like that and then cop out on any real conversation.
look i know that michelle is facing sexism as well. i am just saying that black women like michelle bring certain experiences to the table other women have not necessarily experienced. yes, many black women (especially dark skin women) look up to michelle because she is a strong black woman whose husband is the leader of the free world. it doesn't get any more important for them than that. frankly, I not sure any of ya'll can understand unless there are some strutters who are black women on here that can chime in. i keep saying dark skin black women because they have had to endure much more abusive types of racism than other women.
saba i don't expect you to do anything else but yell michelle is a racist. for you to say, i don't care about ones struggles or achievements is disrespectful. honestly, what i was trying to do is highlight a convo i had between some college friends and I who were mostly black women over this issue. believe me, there are a lot of black women out there who are very upset at what they are seeing in regards to michelle. although, they recognize the sexist nature of the media's coverage of michelle, they also recognize that black women in this country have an extra weight on them and that is their color. as much as people try to side step that issue, it will be something millions of black women have to deal with for a long time. when the media tears down michelle they get upset because some of the same shit said about michelle is something many of them relate to in their everyday lives.
in ending man, i was just trying to provoke discussion on a subject that never really gets talked about on this site: black women. i highlighted this issue via michelle obama cause believe or not many black women do look up to her.
You might choose to give her a pass simply because shes black or because you like Obama or his policies. I don't. I don't care what her background is, or what adversity she may have overcome, or what she's achieved. There is no excuse or explanation for racism.
I think it's pretty clear that when I say "I don't care" it's in the context of these factors somehow being a justification for excusing racism. If it wasn't clear, I apologize. Also, I did not say, nor did I intend to imply that white racism or sexism doesn't exist or that Michelle is not a target of it.
in ending man, i was just trying to provoke discussion on a subject that never really gets talked about on this site: black women. i highlighted this issue via michelle obama cause believe or not many black women do look up to her.
Black women get talked about all the time on this site. Usually by being fetishized and stereotyped by a bunch of predominantly white, male record nerds.
I can sympathize be being Black, but when Obama and Michelle were on the come up, I knew that the heat was going to rise. And when they got into office I expected shit to get even hotter.
My mother was scarred that he would get assassinated while in office because of a Black man winning. And she wasnt the only one who spoke in those drastic terms. For me the bar for hate has been raised so crazy high, that for regular common Racism against them (dark-skinned or "mixed" skinned) is just whatever.
There are times I see Michelle and I start to tear-up because of seeing a Sister in her position.
Gettin shitted on comes with the job. But I know how the media hypes shit up to get folks who dont have the facilities to recognize the bullshit.
an administration that takes every opportunity to wage class warfare against families that would never even consider purchasing an $875 purse.
This wholly unverified prattle is really beneath a man of your intelligence. Ironically, it itself is a form of divisiveness, if not - yes - class warfare.
Additionally, you seem to be impugning upon Americans' very wish lists. Boo, Santa Claus.
It's probably best not to engage anybody who actually uses the phrase "class warfare"
"Class warfare" - "Democratic Budget Proposal," call it whatever you want.
Trickle-down economics is the most effective form of class warfare ever practiced in this country and you think it's great.
I'll never, ever understand why otherwise decent/intelligent people engage Saba in non-record-related threads. by about the 2nd or 3rd NRR post of his that I ever read, I ceased to be surprised by a word he said. and yet there's always all this outrage/anger/indignation directed at him which only makes type more nonsense.
(I get it; he's a good collectro; we like having him around. And were he to actually write anything *interestingly* or *thought-provokingly* right-wing, I could see the interest in engaging him. But that's never what he brings.)
saba, concentrating on how much she spent on a purse is just straight petty dude, but then again these are the same cheap shots that beck and the rest throw. now before you get your panties in a bunch, understand I am NOT equating you with beck.
Really. Because it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing. At least own up to it.
But, as long as we're playing the race card, what if I were to say I didn't like the First Lady because I thought she was a racist? Am I a racist just for entertaining the idea that a black person can be racist? Is anyone here going to challenge the possibility that black people can be just as racist and closed minded as the reddest necked Klansman? I think if you do, you either have a very limited exposure to the black community, are willfully avoiding the truth about human nature, and/or viewing black people not as individuals, but rather as just some group - the "minority." That's still a label rather than appreciating someone as an individual. And in my opinion it's just a destructive regardless of whether you view the group kindly or not. I think we can all agree that there are good people and there are bad people no matter how you want to categorize them.
As for the First Lady. She's written and said some pretty messed-up things that reflect a super-consciousness, almost paranoid, preoccupation with race that reflects the type of thinking I mentioned above. I think she see's a white person as white and then we have to try and make-up for that fact from there. She's said and written things that if the equivalent had been said by a white person, it would be cause for universal condemnation and rightly so. You might choose to give her a pass simply because shes black or because you like Obama or his policies. I don't. I don't care what her background is, or what adversity she may have overcome, or what she's achieved. There is no excuse or explanation for racism. She gets no pass from me and I wouldn't expect anyone to give me a pass if I held the same views in reverese.
Amir is wrong to give you a pass on being as bad as Beck. This garbage is exactly the sort of shit Beck and Limbaugh and so forth have said about Michelle Obama and her supposed hatred of whites. I'm surprised you didn't bring up that fake "Whitey" tape. And I notice you don't bother to back up your mind-reading bullshit with actual examples, because they'd be such weak sauce that anyone reading would immediately see how ridiculous your claims are.
Update: And your big piece of evidence was her SENIOR THESIS?
Wow. That's just incredible. I apologize to Beck for comparing him to you. His material is better.
I'm not sure where Saba was raised, but I live in the city in which Michelle Obama was born and grew up. South Shore Chicago, 1964 is not the sort of environment in which anyone could have grown up without acquiring racial scars. To this day, it is easily one of the most racially divided and divisive cities in the country. Dr. King, as folks will recall, was hit in the head with a brick during a peace march two years after Mrs. Obama was born. After Dr. King's assassination two years following that stain on Chicago, race riots broke out in pockets throughout the city. Only a few months after that, the police riot at the Democratic Convention became the stuff of legend and Al Kooper LP covers. Any of these events may well have been her first memory, and the working-class parents who raised her - her father was a city pump operator that lived and worked with MS - could hardly have escaped the climate, either.
To sweep away these hard years and the previous 400 and foist the wholly false equivalent of "if a black woman said this about whites..." is deplorable, illogical, and does not even pass for a revisionist's view of history. Mrs. Obama is a woman whose not-too-distant ancestors were literally slaves. Her upbringing in a blue-collar household and rise to Princeton and then the White House would and should naturally solidify her as one of the greatest role models in this country's history for African-American women in specific and all women in general. The reality of her status should be obvious to any person of any race.
Mrs. Obama is also entitled to the reality that she has experienced. Do you think that the Princeton of the 1980s (much less now) was some sort of utopia for Black people? Do you think that it was fair of her to relate her feelings of isolation at the time through a frankly-written assessment? I hardly see vitriol among what I have read of her thesis - merely the hard perspective of a woman who had seen and felt first-hand by the age of 21 what most privileged kids had not and will not see in a lifetime. It's a little ironic that Mrs. Obama's life story would seem to at justify the eternal GOP "bootstrap" argument, yet she irks the Right because - at the time, from her 21-year-old perspective - she still had her eyes open enough to see injustice. Is it that Mrs. Obama was too uppity, or not uppity enough?
To others: with all of the above said, some perspective is needed. Mrs. Obama is no more generally targeted than Hillary Clinton, the last Democratic First Lady. Mrs. Clinton was especially savaged by the Right for her leadership roles and strong stances. Michelle Obama is the FLOTUS in a culture that is so politically divisive that even her unassailable stance on obesity - namely, you know, that it's a bad thing - is assailed by fame-hungry media boobs. By comparison, Laura Bush largely escaped the ire of the Left because she failed to register a discernible stance on anything consequential until her husband left office. Then, you know, she was free to expound on her embrace of gay marriage. But since Mrs. Obama has actually raised her voice - however faintly - she has and will see heat. In today's USA, it comes with the role.
I'm not sure where Saba was raised, but I live in the city in which Michelle Obama was born and grew up. South Shore Chicago, 1964 is not the sort of environment in which anyone could have grown up without acquiring racial scars. To this day, it is easily one of the most racially divided and divisive cities in the country. Dr. King, as folks will recall, was hit in the head with a brick during a peace march two years after Mrs. Obama was born. After Dr. King's assassination two years following that stain on Chicago, race riots broke out in pockets throughout the city. Only a few months after that, the police riot at the Democratic Convention became the stuff of legend and Al Kooper LP covers. Any of these events may well have been her first memory, and the working-class parents who raised her - her father was a city pump operator that lived and worked with MS - could hardly have escaped the climate, either.
To sweep away these hard years and the previous 400 and foist the wholly false equivalent of "if a white woman said this about blacks..." is deplorable, illogical, and does not even pass for a revisionist's view of history. Mrs. Obama is a woman whose not-too-distant ancestors were literally slaves. Her upbringing in a blue-collar household and rise to Princeton and then the White House would and should naturally solidify her as one of the greatest role models in this country's history for African-American women in specific and all women in general. The reality of her status should be obvious to any person of any race.
Mrs. Obama is also entitled to the reality that she has experienced. Do you think that the Princeton of the 1980s (much less now) was some sort of utopia for Black people? Do you think that it was fair of her to relate her feelings of isolation at the time through a frankly-written assessment? I hardly see vitriol among what I have read of her thesis - merely the hard perspective of a woman who had seen and felt first-hand by the age of 21 what most privileged kids had not and will not see in a lifetime. It's a little ironic that Mrs. Obama's life story would seem to at justify the eternal GOP "bootstrap" argument, yet she irks the Right because - at the time, from her 21-year-old perspective - she still had her eyes open enough to see injustice. Is it that Mrs. Obama was too uppity, or not uppity enough?
To others: with all of the above said, some perspective is needed. Mrs. Obama is no more generally targeted than Hillary Clinton, the last Democratic First Lady. Mrs. Clinton was especially savaged by the Right for her leadership roles and strong stances. Michelle Obama is the FLOTUS in a culture that is so politically divisive that even her unassailable stance on obesity - namely, you know, that it's a bad thing - is assailed by image-hungry media boobs. By comparison, Laura Bush largely escaped the ire of the Left because she failed to register a discernible stance on anything consequential until her husband left office. Then, you know, she was free to expound on her embrace of gay marriage. But since Mrs. Obama has actually raised her voice - however faintly - she has and will see heat. In today's USA, it comes with the role.
Luck, this was a great post. A couple of points:
Saba seems to think that MO has said things that would bring "universal condemnation" if equivalents were said by whites. Yet he'd obviously vote for Haley Barbour over Obama in 2012, and Barbour's recent remarks about race in Mississippi in the 60s reveal him to be immensely ignorant or deeply racist or both. So much for "universal condemnation," since the remarks won't affect his standing among Republicans at all. The truth is that "it wasn't that bad" is a view that fits comfortably into the Republican mainstream these days when they look at the pre-Civil Rights era. That's been true for decades.
I went to an Ivy League college at roughly the same time MO did. A good number of the black students tended to sit together at mealtimes and there was a nickname that was commonly used (by assholes) for that area - "LA." It stood for "Little Africa." The early 80s weren't as far removed from the 60s as some people think. It was the same time Reagan was winning support by telling stories about "welfare queens driving Cadillacs" and "young bucks buying T-bones with foodstamps."
I realize Saba thinks MO should have reacted to those times by wrapping herself in the flag and going to work in the Reagan administration, but I'm glad she didn't.
I'll never, ever understand why otherwise decent/intelligent people engage Saba in non-record-related threads. by about the 2nd or 3rd NRR post of his that I ever read, I ceased to be surprised by a word he said. and yet there's always all this outrage/anger/indignation directed at him which only makes type more nonsense.
(I get it; he's a good collectro; we like having him around. And were he to actually write anything *interestingly* or *thought-provokingly* right-wing, I could see the interest in engaging him. But that's never what he brings.)
Not for nothing, but then why did you waste your time writing this. Either engage in the conversaton or don't. Why didn't you take this opportunity to say something *interesting* or *thought provoking*. Do you have no opinion other than that you just don't like mine?
Luck. Thank you. I'm going to have to look at this some more and want to give it the response it deserves. I think the second to last paragraph is particularly persuasive and I appreciate you not jumping down my throat. I'm not intending to be offensive, I just try to be logically consistent, maybe that's the problem. Maybe it requires inconsistencies in its application, but to me, inconsistencies based on race or group is racism, or the root of racism. Am I just wrong?
On that point there are two things I have issue with because they don't seem to be consistently applied because a consistent application would be meaningless - you would have to start making allowances for everyone and that becomes identity politics.
luck said:
To sweep away these hard years and the previous 400 and foist the wholly false equivalent of "if a white woman said this about blacks..." is deplorable, illogical, and does not even pass for a revisionist's view of history ...
Mrs. Obama is also entitled to the reality that she has experienced.
Bob - its a straw man argument to say I would obviously support Haley Barbour and to attribute all these ideas to me when I've never expressed any of them.
Comments
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/26/politics/uwire/main3881166.shtml
http://www.slate.com/id/2190589/
I'm not going to try and go through and cherry pick. The entire outlook is one of a person who sees people, foremost, as black or white and in my opinion that's the definition of racism.
Really? I am surprised!
Is it that they see them as black or white or that they attribute characteristics to whiteness or blackness?
Ignoring someone's race is negating their identity. We're no better off.
When I say "see them as black or white" I don't mean see with their eyes, or recognize that a person is black or white. I mean you view them through a lens that attributes characteristics.
And your above this?
you're out of your element saba
But you have done exactly that based on religion.
So thats it JP? This topic is close for conversation? I'm a racist, end of story?
Anyhow. I'm fading. I expect this problem to be solved when I wake up tomorrow morning.
Good Night Soul Strut.
I'm not really up for this conversation, though. It's one of those "if you have to ask..." things.
Really. Because this kind of sounds like you are calling me a racist. And, no offense, but if you're not up to the converation than you probably shouldn't say things like that and then cop out on any real conversation.
saba i don't expect you to do anything else but yell michelle is a racist. for you to say, i don't care about ones struggles or achievements is disrespectful. honestly, what i was trying to do is highlight a convo i had between some college friends and I who were mostly black women over this issue. believe me, there are a lot of black women out there who are very upset at what they are seeing in regards to michelle. although, they recognize the sexist nature of the media's coverage of michelle, they also recognize that black women in this country have an extra weight on them and that is their color. as much as people try to side step that issue, it will be something millions of black women have to deal with for a long time. when the media tears down michelle they get upset because some of the same shit said about michelle is something many of them relate to in their everyday lives.
in ending man, i was just trying to provoke discussion on a subject that never really gets talked about on this site: black women. i highlighted this issue via michelle obama cause believe or not many black women do look up to her.
I think it's pretty clear that when I say "I don't care" it's in the context of these factors somehow being a justification for excusing racism. If it wasn't clear, I apologize. Also, I did not say, nor did I intend to imply that white racism or sexism doesn't exist or that Michelle is not a target of it.
Black women get talked about all the time on this site. Usually by being fetishized and stereotyped by a bunch of predominantly white, male record nerds.
Saba out.
My mother was scarred that he would get assassinated while in office because of a Black man winning. And she wasnt the only one who spoke in those drastic terms. For me the bar for hate has been raised so crazy high, that for regular common Racism against them (dark-skinned or "mixed" skinned) is just whatever.
There are times I see Michelle and I start to tear-up because of seeing a Sister in her position.
Gettin shitted on comes with the job. But I know how the media hypes shit up to get folks who dont have the facilities to recognize the bullshit.
This is really, really not a good idea
Trickle-down economics is the most effective form of class warfare ever practiced in this country and you think it's great.
(I get it; he's a good collectro; we like having him around. And were he to actually write anything *interestingly* or *thought-provokingly* right-wing, I could see the interest in engaging him. But that's never what he brings.)
Amir is wrong to give you a pass on being as bad as Beck. This garbage is exactly the sort of shit Beck and Limbaugh and so forth have said about Michelle Obama and her supposed hatred of whites. I'm surprised you didn't bring up that fake "Whitey" tape. And I notice you don't bother to back up your mind-reading bullshit with actual examples, because they'd be such weak sauce that anyone reading would immediately see how ridiculous your claims are.
Update: And your big piece of evidence was her SENIOR THESIS?
Wow. That's just incredible. I apologize to Beck for comparing him to you. His material is better.
To sweep away these hard years and the previous 400 and foist the wholly false equivalent of "if a black woman said this about whites..." is deplorable, illogical, and does not even pass for a revisionist's view of history. Mrs. Obama is a woman whose not-too-distant ancestors were literally slaves. Her upbringing in a blue-collar household and rise to Princeton and then the White House would and should naturally solidify her as one of the greatest role models in this country's history for African-American women in specific and all women in general. The reality of her status should be obvious to any person of any race.
Mrs. Obama is also entitled to the reality that she has experienced. Do you think that the Princeton of the 1980s (much less now) was some sort of utopia for Black people? Do you think that it was fair of her to relate her feelings of isolation at the time through a frankly-written assessment? I hardly see vitriol among what I have read of her thesis - merely the hard perspective of a woman who had seen and felt first-hand by the age of 21 what most privileged kids had not and will not see in a lifetime. It's a little ironic that Mrs. Obama's life story would seem to at justify the eternal GOP "bootstrap" argument, yet she irks the Right because - at the time, from her 21-year-old perspective - she still had her eyes open enough to see injustice. Is it that Mrs. Obama was too uppity, or not uppity enough?
To others: with all of the above said, some perspective is needed. Mrs. Obama is no more generally targeted than Hillary Clinton, the last Democratic First Lady. Mrs. Clinton was especially savaged by the Right for her leadership roles and strong stances. Michelle Obama is the FLOTUS in a culture that is so politically divisive that even her unassailable stance on obesity - namely, you know, that it's a bad thing - is assailed by fame-hungry media boobs. By comparison, Laura Bush largely escaped the ire of the Left because she failed to register a discernible stance on anything consequential until her husband left office. Then, you know, she was free to expound on her embrace of gay marriage. But since Mrs. Obama has actually raised her voice - however faintly - she has and will see heat. In today's USA, it comes with the role.
Luck, this was a great post. A couple of points:
Saba seems to think that MO has said things that would bring "universal condemnation" if equivalents were said by whites. Yet he'd obviously vote for Haley Barbour over Obama in 2012, and Barbour's recent remarks about race in Mississippi in the 60s reveal him to be immensely ignorant or deeply racist or both. So much for "universal condemnation," since the remarks won't affect his standing among Republicans at all. The truth is that "it wasn't that bad" is a view that fits comfortably into the Republican mainstream these days when they look at the pre-Civil Rights era. That's been true for decades.
I went to an Ivy League college at roughly the same time MO did. A good number of the black students tended to sit together at mealtimes and there was a nickname that was commonly used (by assholes) for that area - "LA." It stood for "Little Africa." The early 80s weren't as far removed from the 60s as some people think. It was the same time Reagan was winning support by telling stories about "welfare queens driving Cadillacs" and "young bucks buying T-bones with foodstamps."
I realize Saba thinks MO should have reacted to those times by wrapping herself in the flag and going to work in the Reagan administration, but I'm glad she didn't.
Not for nothing, but then why did you waste your time writing this. Either engage in the conversaton or don't. Why didn't you take this opportunity to say something *interesting* or *thought provoking*. Do you have no opinion other than that you just don't like mine?
On that point there are two things I have issue with because they don't seem to be consistently applied because a consistent application would be meaningless - you would have to start making allowances for everyone and that becomes identity politics.
Bob - its a straw man argument to say I would obviously support Haley Barbour and to attribute all these ideas to me when I've never expressed any of them.