Are people really that mad about a Kanye album getting a 10 rating in Pitchfork that they'll go on a "fuck all y'all no-taste-havin' muthafuckas" rampage against anyone who has a good word for it? Or indeed will start a thread slamming the entire concept of music criticism as, one presumes, an outraged over-reaction to that one review? Because it seems to me that this is what's really at the root of the debate here - dudes getting mad that people happen to like something they don't, specifically Kanye. To which I can only say, if you're gonna act like a good review for a Kanye West album is a personal affront to your entire values system, then your sense of perspective might need recalibrating.
The past week has been an interesting case study in just how little criticism matters.
Kanye's universally acclaimed album sells ~515K its first week while Nicki Minaj's album, which has been just as widely derided, sells 375K.
Very few members of the buying public care what critics have to say anymore, if they ever did.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
faux_rillz said:
DocMcCoy said:
Are people really that mad about a Kanye album getting a 10 rating in Pitchfork that they'll go on a "fuck all y'all no-taste-havin' muthafuckas" rampage against anyone who has a good word for it? Or indeed will start a thread slamming the entire concept of music criticism as, one presumes, an outraged over-reaction to that one review? Because it seems to me that this is what's really at the root of the debate here - dudes getting mad that people happen to like something they don't, specifically Kanye. To which I can only say, if you're gonna act like a good review for a Kanye West album is a personal affront to your entire values system, then your sense of perspective might need recalibrating.
The past week has been an interesting case study in just how little criticism matters.
Kanye's universally acclaimed album sells ~515K its first week while Nicki Minaj's album, which has been just as widely derided, sells 375K.
Very few members of the buying public care what critics have to say anymore, if they ever did.
I'd go as far to suggest that, if all those review-the-reviews pieces on the Kanye album are any measure, there's now an argument to be made that what the critics have to say only really matters to other critics.
Personally, I firmly believe that the whole star-rating/marks-out-of-ten/how-many-mics model has ruined music criticism. When I read a review, I want to know what the writer thinks of the record. I couldn't give a fuck about what mark he or she gives it - I'll leave that for the people too lazy to read, and who want to be told that something's good or bad without having to figure it out for themselves. No matter what a writer has to say about a record, ultimately all that matters nowadays is how it measures according to whatever ratings system is used by the outlet they're writing for. And amongst the few instances anyone seriously gives a fuck about that is where an inordinately high rating runs counter to the received wisdom about a performer's artistic worth, i.e, how can a Kanye West album possibly deserve etc., etc.
Are people really that mad about a Kanye album getting a 10 rating in Pitchfork that they'll go on a "fuck all y'all no-taste-havin' muthafuckas" rampage against anyone who has a good word for it? Or indeed will start a thread slamming the entire concept of music criticism as, one presumes, an outraged over-reaction to that one review? Because it seems to me that this is what's really at the root of the debate here - dudes getting mad that people happen to like something they don't, specifically Kanye. To which I can only say, if you're gonna act like a good review for a Kanye West album is a personal affront to your entire values system, then your sense of perspective might need recalibrating.
The past week has been an interesting case study in just how little criticism matters.
Kanye's universally acclaimed album sells ~515K its first week while Nicki Minaj's album, which has been just as widely derided, sells 375K.
Very few members of the buying public care what critics have to say anymore, if they ever did.
the majority of the buying public isn't even aware that music is reviewed/critiqued anymore.
IMO, record reviews became irrelevant the second people could sample a whole record instantly before purchase.
Indeed, it seems music crit is now ivory tower. Probably not a bad thing. Let the people decide.
That being said, I'm a little sad there are no winter olympics this year, as I'm sure there would have been some rodeo ass ice skating routines to this "rap" album.
20 pages!! Epic
The thraed that shreds
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
4YearGraduate said:
IMO, record reviews became irrelevant the second people could sample a whole record instantly before purchase.
This.
Sadly, that wasn't all that became irrelevant - I bet many marketing and promotions departments are no longer so busy now that much of their work can be done (or undone) with a well-placed leak. I'm waiting for the first instance of an act being dropped because their record leaked, and enough influential people thought it sucked for the label to get cold feet and cut their losses. It ain't beyond the realms of possibility.
But yeah, a 20 page thread on a new record is no bad thing, even when folks are sharply divided on the merits, if any, of that record.
there's now an argument to be made that what the critics have to say only really matters to other critics.
Ha, I don't disagree but that's not anything new. Not remotely.
I don't know how many times i can say this but: reviews don't sell albums.
I don't know at what point they ever really did, at least, not in a direct fashion. People who believe this (*cough cough* indie rappers with attitude problems) fail to see the bigger picture. What (partially) sells records is COVERAGE of which reviews play a part, but hardly the only one.
Nicky Minaj has gotten a shit load of coverage. The fact that a small portion of that coverage might have been "negative" reviews (that's not true, btw. The album has actually gotten quantitatively high marks) isn't likely to do much against a tide of just general attention that's putting an artist out there. I've been reading/seeing covearge on Minaj for well over a year. I didn't have to read a single review to know that her album was likely going to do very well (though even I wouldn't have predicted 300K+)
The reason why there's a misconception around this is that, sometimes, reviews are the ONLY coverage that some releases ever receive. In those cases, sure, the power of a review can amplify a positive or negative effect on album sales. If someone struggling, indie singer/songwriter gets a positive review on NPR vs. nothing at all, that may help her sell more albums that she might have otherwise. But that's giving undue power to criticism in the absence of any other media presence.
Personally, I firmly believe that the whole star-rating/marks-out-of-ten/how-many-mics model has ruined music criticism
Meh. I think you're actually missing something here. A consumer-centric model didn't ruin music criticism. It ruined the dialogue amongst consumers because, as you point out, the debate shifts from "what did the reviewer have to say about the album?" to "oh shit, The Source/PItchfork gave that 5 mics/10.0? What the fuck?"
That's got very little to do with the state of music criticism. That has to do with CONSUMERS fixating on a model that they themselves demand. (Trust me on this - one of the most common things that readers bitch about is along the lines of, "I don't give a fuck if this album does or does not capture the mythology of a lost America, all I want to know is if it's any good or not.") And so publications give them ratings as a consumer guide. But then they fixate on the ratings.
Pretty much, and to add, this thread has done more to promote the Kanye album then probably ten traditional reviews. In fact, I think there are actually four posts contained within this thread where people say "dammit I had to buy this record because of this thread"
Divided dialogue is the new review, and people have to hear it to conversate. No longer do we need a print reviewer using classic descriptives such as "nasal/baritone flow" ( 90's rap review related) or "aggressive" or whathaveyou.
Puts traditional PR firms in kind of a bind, unless, of course you plant people to initiate the dialogue.
The game is obscure
@O
Have there been any proven instances of Shill criticism? for instance, I'm sure that this Kanye review has doubled the pitchfork pageview and thus increased serious ad revenue? Not pointing the finger, but financially making outrageous claiims that turn pageviews (whether for better or for worse) is good web 2.0
the majority of the buying public isn't even aware that music is reviewed/critiqued anymore.
Naw, I tihnk that's completely backwards. I think the public is inundated with reviews/critiques all the time except now they don't have to go to the back of Rolling Stone, they get it in their twitter feed. Our society is far far far more inundated with reviews than we ever have been. What's changed is the medium, not the messages.
@ Thes: Publications regularly get pressure from advertisers (read: record labels) to say good things about their releases. But they also get pressure to run stories and basically, just give their artists whatever kind of coverage is possible.
But "proven instances"? I mean, what you'd need is some smoking gun memo where someone's saying, "yo, let's just give Kanye's album a 10.0 so we can cake off the added page views." COULD it happen? Sure. Does it happen? Perhaps. But I suspect not very often. Look: payola is far far far more efficient and direct. Trying to game the system through deliberately being controversial and driving up page views works for gossip sites. I really doubt most online music sites would bother to go to those lengths. I mean, is there a site out there known for its "outrageous" opinions? I can't really think of one. Pitchfork is probably the target of many people's animus but that's because they hate what PF represents, not necessarily what it actually writes day to day.
And on that note: Pitchfork might have driven up their page count with that 10.0 review but it's Kanye that's driving the interest, not the review. If they gave a Joanna Newsom CD a 10.0, you think their page count would double off of that? Doubtful.
No longer do we need a print reviewer using classic descriptives such as "nasal/baritone flow" ( 90's rap review related) or "aggressive" or whathaveyou.
CRISP SNARES.
(I'm sure I used some variation on that at least a dozen times during my URB tenure)
BTW, is there a rapper who actually is both nasal AND baritone? Maybe Biggie?
Nicky Minaj has gotten a shit load of coverage. The fact that a small portion of that coverage might have been "negative" reviews (that's not true, btw. The album has actually gotten quantitatively high marks) isn't likely to do much against a tide of just general attention that's putting an artist out there. I've been reading/seeing covearge on Minaj for well over a year.
Really? From whom?
I haven't seen a single positive review of that record.
Nicky Minaj has gotten a shit load of coverage. The fact that a small portion of that coverage might have been "negative" reviews (that's not true, btw. The album has actually gotten quantitatively high marks) isn't likely to do much against a tide of just general attention that's putting an artist out there. I've been reading/seeing covearge on Minaj for well over a year.
Really? From whom?
I haven't seen a single positive review of that record.
the majority of the buying public isn't even aware that music is reviewed/critiqued anymore.
Naw, I tihnk that's completely backwards. I think the public is inundated with reviews/critiques all the time except now they don't have to go to the back of Rolling Stone, they get it in their twitter feed. Our society is far far far more inundated with reviews than we ever have been. What's changed is the medium, not the messages.
i think we are confusing reviews and opinions. i am more speaking to the review/critique in the traditional form. the 300k+ people that bought Nikki's record are not aware that Rolling Stone continues to review records, nor would they ever care what that review says. obviously they will continue to care what a friend or celebrity thinks on twitter, but that is FAR from a review/critique.
b/w
i thought your MBDTF review was well thought out and articulated, i still care!
This thread is starting to read like a writing exercise. How many words can you tease out of the conceit "BUT PEOPLE UNDER THE STAIRS WORK REALLY HARD ON THEIR MUSIC TOO" without actually saying "BUT PEOPLE UNDER THE STAIRS WORK REALLY HARD ON THEIR MUSIC TOO"?
If the only new rap you listen to is the rap made by your friends then you're probably not qualified to speak on the subject.
nicki minaj got disk of the week in my local culture weekly
and they never let hiphop get the main spot on that page
except when its pitchforkingly trendy
i don't hatt the album i dont love it
i like spelunk's rant and doc's rebutal
the figure skating routine thing is the best thing in this thread
and props for the pre-emptive title way back when
Finally decided to give this a listen after all of the hype and the Pitchfork 10. I must admit, this is a pretty impressive album, and I HATE Kanye. If he weren't such a tool, I might be able to enjoy his music more.
Finally decided to give this a listen after all of the hype and the Pitchfork 10. I must admit, this is a pretty impressive album, and I HATE Kanye. If he weren't such a tool, I might be able to enjoy his music more.
How does his attitude alter what you hear? The samples sound different? What filters the exp?
Finally decided to give this a listen after all of the hype and the Pitchfork 10. I must admit, this is a pretty impressive album, and I HATE Kanye. If he weren't such a tool, I might be able to enjoy his music more.
How does his attitude alter what you hear? The samples sound different? What filters the exp?
I think attitude and public persona has a lot to do with your overall likeability, at least for me. It's the same for actors, athletes, musicians ??? if you're a tool and treat people like shit then that will to some degree affect how your work is perceived. It doesn't change whether or not it's good or not ??? I admitted that Kanye's album was really good. But the fact that I don't particularly respect him as a person makes it hard for me to be a fan and enjoy his music like a fan typically would.
I guess a close correlation would be Lebron and the shit he pulled in the off season. I actually really liked him as a player and person when he was on the Cavs, but I think what he did in the off season was pretty disrespectful and honestly fucked up to Cleveland and Cavs fans. Now, not much of a fan.
Comments
The past week has been an interesting case study in just how little criticism matters.
Kanye's universally acclaimed album sells ~515K its first week while Nicki Minaj's album, which has been just as widely derided, sells 375K.
Very few members of the buying public care what critics have to say anymore, if they ever did.
I'd go as far to suggest that, if all those review-the-reviews pieces on the Kanye album are any measure, there's now an argument to be made that what the critics have to say only really matters to other critics.
Personally, I firmly believe that the whole star-rating/marks-out-of-ten/how-many-mics model has ruined music criticism. When I read a review, I want to know what the writer thinks of the record. I couldn't give a fuck about what mark he or she gives it - I'll leave that for the people too lazy to read, and who want to be told that something's good or bad without having to figure it out for themselves. No matter what a writer has to say about a record, ultimately all that matters nowadays is how it measures according to whatever ratings system is used by the outlet they're writing for. And amongst the few instances anyone seriously gives a fuck about that is where an inordinately high rating runs counter to the received wisdom about a performer's artistic worth, i.e, how can a Kanye West album possibly deserve etc., etc.
the majority of the buying public isn't even aware that music is reviewed/critiqued anymore.
Indeed, it seems music crit is now ivory tower. Probably not a bad thing. Let the people decide.
That being said, I'm a little sad there are no winter olympics this year, as I'm sure there would have been some rodeo ass ice skating routines to this "rap" album.
20 pages!! Epic
The thraed that shreds
This.
Sadly, that wasn't all that became irrelevant - I bet many marketing and promotions departments are no longer so busy now that much of their work can be done (or undone) with a well-placed leak. I'm waiting for the first instance of an act being dropped because their record leaked, and enough influential people thought it sucked for the label to get cold feet and cut their losses. It ain't beyond the realms of possibility.
But yeah, a 20 page thread on a new record is no bad thing, even when folks are sharply divided on the merits, if any, of that record.
Ha, I don't disagree but that's not anything new. Not remotely.
I don't know how many times i can say this but: reviews don't sell albums.
I don't know at what point they ever really did, at least, not in a direct fashion. People who believe this (*cough cough* indie rappers with attitude problems) fail to see the bigger picture. What (partially) sells records is COVERAGE of which reviews play a part, but hardly the only one.
Nicky Minaj has gotten a shit load of coverage. The fact that a small portion of that coverage might have been "negative" reviews (that's not true, btw. The album has actually gotten quantitatively high marks) isn't likely to do much against a tide of just general attention that's putting an artist out there. I've been reading/seeing covearge on Minaj for well over a year. I didn't have to read a single review to know that her album was likely going to do very well (though even I wouldn't have predicted 300K+)
The reason why there's a misconception around this is that, sometimes, reviews are the ONLY coverage that some releases ever receive. In those cases, sure, the power of a review can amplify a positive or negative effect on album sales. If someone struggling, indie singer/songwriter gets a positive review on NPR vs. nothing at all, that may help her sell more albums that she might have otherwise. But that's giving undue power to criticism in the absence of any other media presence.
Meh. I think you're actually missing something here. A consumer-centric model didn't ruin music criticism. It ruined the dialogue amongst consumers because, as you point out, the debate shifts from "what did the reviewer have to say about the album?" to "oh shit, The Source/PItchfork gave that 5 mics/10.0? What the fuck?"
That's got very little to do with the state of music criticism. That has to do with CONSUMERS fixating on a model that they themselves demand. (Trust me on this - one of the most common things that readers bitch about is along the lines of, "I don't give a fuck if this album does or does not capture the mythology of a lost America, all I want to know is if it's any good or not.") And so publications give them ratings as a consumer guide. But then they fixate on the ratings.
Pretty much, and to add, this thread has done more to promote the Kanye album then probably ten traditional reviews. In fact, I think there are actually four posts contained within this thread where people say "dammit I had to buy this record because of this thread"
Divided dialogue is the new review, and people have to hear it to conversate. No longer do we need a print reviewer using classic descriptives such as "nasal/baritone flow" ( 90's rap review related) or "aggressive" or whathaveyou.
Puts traditional PR firms in kind of a bind, unless, of course you plant people to initiate the dialogue.
The game is obscure
@O
Have there been any proven instances of Shill criticism? for instance, I'm sure that this Kanye review has doubled the pitchfork pageview and thus increased serious ad revenue? Not pointing the finger, but financially making outrageous claiims that turn pageviews (whether for better or for worse) is good web 2.0
Naw, I tihnk that's completely backwards. I think the public is inundated with reviews/critiques all the time except now they don't have to go to the back of Rolling Stone, they get it in their twitter feed. Our society is far far far more inundated with reviews than we ever have been. What's changed is the medium, not the messages.
But "proven instances"? I mean, what you'd need is some smoking gun memo where someone's saying, "yo, let's just give Kanye's album a 10.0 so we can cake off the added page views." COULD it happen? Sure. Does it happen? Perhaps. But I suspect not very often. Look: payola is far far far more efficient and direct. Trying to game the system through deliberately being controversial and driving up page views works for gossip sites. I really doubt most online music sites would bother to go to those lengths. I mean, is there a site out there known for its "outrageous" opinions? I can't really think of one. Pitchfork is probably the target of many people's animus but that's because they hate what PF represents, not necessarily what it actually writes day to day.
And on that note: Pitchfork might have driven up their page count with that 10.0 review but it's Kanye that's driving the interest, not the review. If they gave a Joanna Newsom CD a 10.0, you think their page count would double off of that? Doubtful.
CRISP SNARES.
(I'm sure I used some variation on that at least a dozen times during my URB tenure)
BTW, is there a rapper who actually is both nasal AND baritone? Maybe Biggie?
Isnt Drake an MC by Soulstrut standards?
Drake matters?
As a Rapper - not ta me.
Doesn't matter. His music is baby food.
Really? From whom?
I haven't seen a single positive review of that record.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2010/11/album-review-nicki-minajs-pink-friday.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/reviews/vd8r
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/reviews/album/69206/236468
And by quantitatively high, I meant that the aggregate score of her album is still on the positive end (though nowhere near Kanye level): http://www.metacritic.com/music/pink-friday/critic-reviews
i think we are confusing reviews and opinions. i am more speaking to the review/critique in the traditional form. the 300k+ people that bought Nikki's record are not aware that Rolling Stone continues to review records, nor would they ever care what that review says. obviously they will continue to care what a friend or celebrity thinks on twitter, but that is FAR from a review/critique.
b/w
i thought your MBDTF review was well thought out and articulated, i still care!
If the only new rap you listen to is the rap made by your friends then you're probably not qualified to speak on the subject.
Unless, of course, your name is Big Sean.
and they never let hiphop get the main spot on that page
except when its pitchforkingly trendy
i don't hatt the album i dont love it
i like spelunk's rant and doc's rebutal
the figure skating routine thing is the best thing in this thread
and props for the pre-emptive title way back when
Listening to Consequence qualifies you to speak on new rap?
SECRET HOUSE PARTY HEADLINE
COME PARTY WITH 1000 KANYE FANS
WE WORK REALLY HARD ON OUR MUSIC
figured I should get some pub out of this thread
rofl
My friends work really hard to capture the essence of Blue period Joni Mitchell, too.
How does his attitude alter what you hear? The samples sound different? What filters the exp?
I think attitude and public persona has a lot to do with your overall likeability, at least for me. It's the same for actors, athletes, musicians ??? if you're a tool and treat people like shit then that will to some degree affect how your work is perceived. It doesn't change whether or not it's good or not ??? I admitted that Kanye's album was really good. But the fact that I don't particularly respect him as a person makes it hard for me to be a fan and enjoy his music like a fan typically would.
I guess a close correlation would be Lebron and the shit he pulled in the off season. I actually really liked him as a player and person when he was on the Cavs, but I think what he did in the off season was pretty disrespectful and honestly fucked up to Cleveland and Cavs fans. Now, not much of a fan.
I dont let any off-court, People Magazine, etc, stuff influence my listening/visual experience.
All my favorite artists have done fucked up things. This is such a tired idea.
Right.
I assume this dude also struggles with listening to James Brown and Miles Davis.