. I think had Ed noted that I was behind the list,
i had no idea it was your list homie...the mag didn't credit it to you...i tried to put together a list but it is too damn difficult....i have more respect for the list after attempting my own...and for the record i never had "beef" with your selections ..we all have our own personal favorites and i applaude you for even attempting to tackle "the monster"
Oliver, Maybe another angle to have gone at this would have been to do an all-non-UBB list; that way you acknowledge UBB's importance as the building blocks of hip hop (while kindly directing the young'uns & neophytes off to discover UBB for themselves) & don't get slammed & screamed on for omitting stuff like "Substitution." You're kind of setting yourself up for a no-win situation having to reduce an all-time list of breaks AND samples down to 30. Break up the categories slightly (Top 30 breaks, Top 30 samples etc.) & you not only get to go a little more indepth, you wind up w/ material for a two or three part series. End result: Mo' chedda from Harris Pub for Odub! Good move w/ "Drag Rap," tho. -Mao
Actually, a UBB + non-UBB list would have been kind of genius. I wish I had thought of that. Yo - you're in the Harris mix, Scratch should hire you over there? I'd pen for you anytime (and I promise I'd try to write my shit better than that Blahzay Blahzay review I did for Ego Trip waaaaaaay back in the day. Ha!)
We'll see how feedback is on this column (and yeah, to answer a previous post, I'm expecting outrage everywhere). Maybe I can convince 'em on another set of lists but at this point, I think it's done and done.
The glaring thing to me is the omission of any Isaac Hayes material(sans 'Blind Alley). No Joy, Walk On By or Walk to Reggios? The last 2 were primarily loops but Joy was a old school staple, so it should have been there.
"Walk On By" was there but missed the cut-off. #31, I swear! (You can apply that to anything else that was left off. I swear, it was #31).
2 years ago no one would of given a shit about "drag rap". I wonder if anybody would of cared if it wasn't on the list or in two years if it'll be deemed "worthy".
2 years ago no one would of given a shit about "drag rap". I wonder if anybody would of cared if it wasn't on the list or in two years if it'll be deemed "worthy".
P.S. Make sure Thes One doesn't see your list of 30 all-time breaks!
Back to the list: Look - I'm sticking by "Drag Rap." I don't even personally like the song that much or bounce for that matter but when a single song gives birth to a whole sub-genre, that's something worth noting.
I kinda like the inclusion of "Drag Rap", just for the fact that I know almost nothing about the song (so I learned a little something from your list... that's got to be a good thing). I vaguely remember it from when it 1st came out, and all I can recall is that I thought it was horrible at that time. The fact that it launched a whole subgenre does make it noteworthy. But let me ask you this, O- is it more deserving of inclusion that Original Concept's "Knowledge Me" / "Can You Feel It", or Bambaataa's "Planet Rock", or the aforementioned "Amen Brother"? Not arguing a point here, I'm just curious what your opinion is on that. I really never knew that "Drag Rap" was so influential.
Phill - it really came down to needing some more contemporary examples. It's no big observation to say that mass sampling has fallen the fuck off since '96 or so...but I didn't want this list to look like, you know, Soulstrutters came up with it since then it'd practically be all Golden Era/Post-New School, UBB + Native Tongues + Pete Rock + Primo shit. (Not that I have anything against this, per se).
What is very, very telling about post-New School sampling is that no one uses the same loop twice if they can help it. It violates, apparently, the DITC Rule Book. When I originally had the lists split, Tom Scott was the dividing factor - I know this is open to much debate, but to me, that was a moment where sampling really became about flipping a signature loop that other producers would then be loathe to touch. To me, "T.R.O.Y." was that moment though, like I said, I'm more than willing to concede that folks could claim Marley or Prince Paul or Large Professor, et. al. had moments like that earlier (the "Symphony" break being an excellent, earlier example, but in that era, people still would sample some shit someone else used. Look at the zillion permutations of "Blind Alley").
I'm rambling but my point was - I really wanted to get some examples in here that were post 98 and I've always been fascinated how Mannie Fresh built bounce around a single 12". To me, that's pretty amazing, just like the role of "Amen Brother" in DnB or the variations of "Impeach the President" that surfaced in the '80s.
So, to make a long story short, "Drag Rap" was a way of nodding to something a little more present as well as throw people a curve ball they wouldn't expect.
Rest assured however, if I'm ever called upon to do something like this again, I will be sure to give Mr. Bliss his due. And probably the Skull Snaps too. It seriously hurt me to leave them off but like I said - hard choices. I really wanted, for example, to have Little Boy Blues Band on there and I know others would be like, "WTF?" but to me, that's a great example of 1) a loop that's been used multiple times (3 and counting) and 2) it's such a hot goddamn loop...and thanks to "The BLack Album," everybody knows it now.
I did feel a little odd leaving off anything Kanye has sampled since he and JB have done the most to bring sampling back but Kanye doesn't really have too many "signature" loops in my book. I mean, there's loops we associate with Kanye, but nothing that has the force of Scott's "Today" or Cocker's "Woman to Woman."
I did feel a little odd leaving off anything Kanye has sampled since he and JB have done the most to bring sampling back but Kanye doesn't really have too many "signature" loops in my book. I mean, there's loops we associate with Kanye, but nothing that has the force of Scott's "Today" or Cocker's "Woman to Woman."
O -
Do you think that this lack of a definin' loop or song that you perceive w/ Kanye and JB is a byproduct of time? As in not havin' the luxury of a historical litmus test to see whether or not the song is built for the ages?
Or is Scott's 'Today' just that immediate such that 'They Reminisce...' had instant classic written all over it, regardless of any contrarian positions?
'Cause out of all of Kanye's beats thus far, personally 'Guess Who's Back?' still sounds as vibrant today as when it was first released... Although I would be hesitant to assign it w/ the unequivocal classic tag, but may be open to revision in a few years or so...
AhThere were a few sonsg I didn't have on my OG list and I was asked to include from my editors. I didn't put on anything I felt really strong should NOT be on there but in my pure, personal list, I wouldn't have kept 'em. They were:
*Shelly Manne: Infinity (great use of a sample, not a great song or even loop on its own)
*Quincy Jones: Summer In the City (not a bad song but not a great song and frankly, who else besides the Pharcyde have really even fucked with this?)
*Mohawks: Champ (awesome song but I don't think of this as essential a sampled song is as others)
Ok - let the debate continue but I'm just asking people for a little civility. If any of you had written this list, I might have respectfully disagreed with you about it but I wouldn't be out there, trying to pull your UBB card.
O-dizzle,
Thanks for the clarity and explanation. I wasn't hating, just bewildered. In regards to the soulstrut list, we should do it and set up a comittee to edit it. I'd love to see the debate that would go on with that one. I'd offer my time to edit.
Just to let you know I wasn't shitting on the article, I was stating if your gonna do a best of all time "BREAKS" list something like Skull Snaps is a no brainer. I'm sure you'll agree. It's great a magazine like this even exists but I wish it was just a bit more solid. Keep on doing what your doin'...........
I did feel a little odd leaving off anything Kanye has sampled since he and JB have done the most to bring sampling back but Kanye doesn't really have too many "signature" loops in my book. I mean, there's loops we associate with Kanye, but nothing that has the force of Scott's "Today" or Cocker's "Woman to Woman."
O -
Do you think that this lack of a definin' loop or song that you perceive w/ Kanye and JB is a byproduct of time? As in not havin' the luxury of a historical litmus test to see whether or not the song is built for the ages?
Or is Scott's 'Today' just that immediate such that 'They Reminisce...' had instant classic written all over it, regardless of any contrarian positions?
'Cause out of all of Kanye's beats thus far, personally 'Guess Who's Back?' still sounds as vibrant today as when it was first released... Although I would be hesitant to assign it w/ the unequivocal classic tag, but may be open to revision in a few years or so...
I definitely think it's partly a lack of historical hindsight but that said, I don't know if something like the sample for "Guess Who's Back" will ever enter into the canon...if only because that was another example of a so-so sample being turned into an amazing song, rather than holding its own.
My personal choice for a Kanye loop would be Tom Brock's "Nothing Can Stop Me From Loving You" - such a sublime song (with Barry White production to boot!) and I can't hear it without thinking, "Girls, Girls, Girls."
By the way - I know ya'll weren't hating on me (just my work, ha!) so there's no need to apologize. I ain't madatcha.
My personal choice for a Just Blaze[/b] loop would be Tom Brock's "Nothing Can Stop Me From Loving You" - such a sublime song (with Barry White production to boot!) and I can't hear it without thinking, "Girls, Girls, Girls."
This I would concur w/ - see above for revision - I've been guilty of makin' the same mistake (and for some reason, usually associate it w/ Kanye by instinct instead of Just) and havin' it pointed out... All good...
I just recorded the break part - the rest of the record is that cartoon shit.
Okay, I recognize this instantly (please excuse me, I know very little about bounce music). But you mean to tell me that bounce as a genre was built off of this??? Man, I am really getting intrigued over this sh*t now. Is it a thing where countless bounce records used this exact sample, or they just programmed the beats to sound similar to this? I guess I just can't imagine a sample like this being used more than a few times before people get tired of it (I know, I know... "Mardi Gras" was sampled many times in traditional Hip Hop records, but it's not like traditional Hip Hop was built off of just "Mardi Gras", ya know?).
Are there any online history's of bounce music out there? I need an edumacation on this sh*t.
Cool, thanks. I see I probably have never even heard real bounce music before, judging from dude's list. But I'm still trying to understand- do all real bounce records sample that "triggerman" beat? I think I would go insane up in a club hearing that same plink plunking sound all night long. I'm probably just not getting it right... I think I really need a copy of that comp "the greatest rap hits from downsouth new orleans" so that I can further my bounce music studies.
But I'm still trying to understand- do all real bounce records sample that "triggerman" beat? I think I would go insane up in a club hearing that same plink plunking sound all night long. I'm probably just not getting it right... I think I really need a copy of that comp "the greatest rap hits from downsouth new orleans" so that I can further my bounce music studies.
You have more patience than me my friend. I couldn't do it. It's like hearing and feeling the repetitive oompa-loompa ranchera/tejano beats bumpin out of a mexican's pickup truck. No thank you sir.
Oddly enough, the "riddims" used over and over again in dancehall and reggae don't bother me. Plus, this mexican likes electro...not that those beats aren't similar/repetitive
I just recorded the break part - the rest of the record is that cartoon shit.
Okay, I recognize this instantly (please excuse me, I know very little about bounce music). But you mean to tell me that bounce as a genre was built off of this??? Man, I am really getting intrigued over this sh*t now. Is it a thing where countless bounce records used this exact sample, or they just programmed the beats to sound similar to this? I guess I just can't imagine a sample like this being used more than a few times before people get tired of it (I know, I know... "Mardi Gras" was sampled many times in traditional Hip Hop records, but it's not like traditional Hip Hop was built off of just "Mardi Gras", ya know?).
Are there any online history's of bounce music out there? I need an edumacation on this sh*t.
And for what it's worth, Phill, when I was doing a magazine assignment in the late 90s & got to meet the Beats by the Pound dudes they tried to explain bounce to me by playing tapes of live jams where cats are shouting out their wards over "Drag Rap" for like the whole jam, on some old school park jam shit where you rock Cerrone or Knock Em Out Sugar Ray for half an hour. I still don't know shit about bounce but that little example & the reverential way they talked about that one record kind of made me understand the importance of that beat in the development of the local scene.
Yo - you're in the Harris mix, Scratch should hire you over there? I'd pen for you anytime (and I promise I'd try to write my shit better than that Blahzay Blahzay review I did for Ego Trip waaaaaaay back in the day. Ha!)
The flattery is appreciated, O, but as O'Shea once said, I ain't tha one. Harris is good to me; I don't need to screw things up by trying to run one of their magazines.
And for what it's worth, Phill, when I was doing a magazine assignment in the late 90s & got to meet the Beats by the Pound dudes they tried to explain bounce to me by playing tapes of live jams where cats are shouting out their wards over "Drag Rap" for like the whole jam, on some old school park jam shit where you rock Cerrone or Knock Em Out Sugar Ray for half an hour. I still don't know shit about bounce but that little example & the reverential way they talked about that one record kind of made me understand the importance of that beat in the development of the local scene.
But I guess this is what I'm not understanding- at an old school hip hop jam they might rock one beat for 10 minutes or whatever, but then they'd move on to another completely different beat. And from that one on to another, and another and so on. To me, that was the whole beauty of hip hop (hate to say "was", but I guess it's a past tense thing now)... all these different sounding beats from all these different genres brought together to create a whole new genre. The idea of just rocking to one beat all night long seems very boring to me. I know it's nothing new... go go is pretty much the same thing, as I guess is house and a lot of other forms of dance music. But still... the exact same beat all night??? Does a bounce deejay do some clever shit on the turntables to give it some kind of variation or add his own flavor to it??? I guess if you're up in the club high on embalming fluid and trying to get some pussy it doesn't even matter in the long run.
And for what it's worth, Phill, when I was doing a magazine assignment in the late 90s & got to meet the Beats by the Pound dudes they tried to explain bounce to me by playing tapes of live jams where cats are shouting out their wards over "Drag Rap" for like the whole jam, on some old school park jam shit where you rock Cerrone or Knock Em Out Sugar Ray for half an hour. I still don't know shit about bounce but that little example & the reverential way they talked about that one record kind of made me understand the importance of that beat in the development of the local scene.
But I guess this is what I'm not understanding- at an old school hip hop jam they might rock one beat for 10 minutes or whatever, but then they'd move on to another completely different beat. And from that one on to another, and another and so on. To me, that was the whole beauty of hip hop (hate to say "was", but I guess it's a past tense thing now)... all these different sounding beats from all these different genres brought together to create a whole new genre. The idea of just rocking to one beat all night long seems very boring to me. I know it's nothing new... go go is pretty much the same thing, as I guess is house and a lot of other forms of dance music. But still... the exact same beat all night??? Does a bounce deejay do some clever shit on the turntables to give it some kind of variation or add his own flavor to it??? I guess if you're up in the club high on embalming fluid and trying to get some pussy it doesn't even matter in the long run.
Hey, now, let's not oversimplify... bounce actually consists of two beats: "Triggerman" and what people refer to as "the brown beats".
*Quincy Jones: Summer In the City (not a bad song but not a great song and frankly, who else besides the Pharcyde have really even fucked with this?)
Not that I think it shoulda made the list but... A whole shit load of downtempo and d&b artists have fuked with that song. Or is downtempo not hiphop either?
*Quincy Jones: Summer In the City (not a bad song but not a great song and frankly, who else besides the Pharcyde have really even fucked with this?)
Not that I think it shoulda made the list but... A whole shit load of downtempo and d&b artists have fuked with that song. Or is downtempo not hiphop either?
Re: "Amen Brother" - that break more or less has fueled DnB production but in the hip-hop world, it's not remotely as distinguished. A good break but not what I'd call seminal.
And the fact that "Summer in the City" is huge in downtempo only further empowers my argument.
Comments
i had no idea it was your list homie...the mag didn't credit it to you...i tried to put together a list but it is too damn difficult....i have more respect for the list after attempting my own...and for the record i never had "beef" with your selections ..we all have our own personal favorites and i applaude you for even attempting to tackle "the monster"
Actually, a UBB + non-UBB list would have been kind of genius. I wish I had thought of that. Yo - you're in the Harris mix, Scratch should hire you over there? I'd pen for you anytime (and I promise I'd try to write my shit better than that Blahzay Blahzay review I did for Ego Trip waaaaaaay back in the day. Ha!)
We'll see how feedback is on this column (and yeah, to answer a previous post, I'm expecting outrage everywhere). Maybe I can convince 'em on another set of lists but at this point, I think it's done and done.
"Walk On By" was there but missed the cut-off. #31, I swear! (You can apply that to anything else that was left off. I swear, it was #31).
P.S. Make sure Thes One doesn't see your list of 30 all-time breaks!
i disagree. i would have put that on my list in the 90s when Cash Money and them were killing it with Drag Rap (except they call it Trigger Man).
Phill - it really came down to needing some more contemporary examples. It's no big observation to say that mass sampling has fallen the fuck off since '96 or so...but I didn't want this list to look like, you know, Soulstrutters came up with it since then it'd practically be all Golden Era/Post-New School, UBB + Native Tongues + Pete Rock + Primo shit. (Not that I have anything against this, per se).
What is very, very telling about post-New School sampling is that no one uses the same loop twice if they can help it. It violates, apparently, the DITC Rule Book. When I originally had the lists split, Tom Scott was the dividing factor - I know this is open to much debate, but to me, that was a moment where sampling really became about flipping a signature loop that other producers would then be loathe to touch. To me, "T.R.O.Y." was that moment though, like I said, I'm more than willing to concede that folks could claim Marley or Prince Paul or Large Professor, et. al. had moments like that earlier (the "Symphony" break being an excellent, earlier example, but in that era, people still would sample some shit someone else used. Look at the zillion permutations of "Blind Alley").
I'm rambling but my point was - I really wanted to get some examples in here that were post 98 and I've always been fascinated how Mannie Fresh built bounce around a single 12". To me, that's pretty amazing, just like the role of "Amen Brother" in DnB or the variations of "Impeach the President" that surfaced in the '80s.
So, to make a long story short, "Drag Rap" was a way of nodding to something a little more present as well as throw people a curve ball they wouldn't expect.
Rest assured however, if I'm ever called upon to do something like this again, I will be sure to give Mr. Bliss his due. And probably the Skull Snaps too. It seriously hurt me to leave them off but like I said - hard choices. I really wanted, for example, to have Little Boy Blues Band on there and I know others would be like, "WTF?" but to me, that's a great example of 1) a loop that's been used multiple times (3 and counting) and 2) it's such a hot goddamn loop...and thanks to "The BLack Album," everybody knows it now.
I did feel a little odd leaving off anything Kanye has sampled since he and JB have done the most to bring sampling back but Kanye doesn't really have too many "signature" loops in my book. I mean, there's loops we associate with Kanye, but nothing that has the force of Scott's "Today" or Cocker's "Woman to Woman."
Honestly? C'mon maaaaaaaaayne. If so you're an exception. (I mean that in a positive way).
Did That Tina Turner/Spead Love break not make it? Or is that more 31 and up?
Faux is saying that it's a girl fight =
O -
Do you think that this lack of a definin' loop or song that you perceive w/ Kanye and JB is a byproduct of time? As in not havin' the luxury of a historical litmus test to see whether or not the song is built for the ages?
Or is Scott's 'Today' just that immediate such that 'They Reminisce...' had instant classic written all over it, regardless of any contrarian positions?
'Cause out of all of Kanye's beats thus far, personally 'Guess Who's Back?' still sounds as vibrant today as when it was first released... Although I would be hesitant to assign it w/ the unequivocal classic tag, but may be open to revision in a few years or so...
http://djayres.com/MP3/Drag%20Rap%20Instrumental.mp3
I just recorded the break part - the rest of the record is that cartoon shit.
O-dizzle,
Thanks for the clarity and explanation. I wasn't hating, just bewildered. In regards to the soulstrut list, we should do it and set up a comittee to edit it. I'd love to see the debate that would go on with that one. I'd offer my time to edit.
My personal choice for a Kanye loop would be Tom Brock's "Nothing Can Stop Me From Loving You" - such a sublime song (with Barry White production to boot!) and I can't hear it without thinking, "Girls, Girls, Girls."
By the way - I know ya'll weren't hating on me (just my work, ha!) so there's no need to apologize. I ain't madatcha.
This I would concur w/ - see above for revision - I've been guilty of makin' the same mistake (and for some reason, usually associate it w/ Kanye by instinct instead of Just) and havin' it pointed out... All good...
Ay*es - thanks! Haven't heard it in a long, long time - maybe 15/16 years or so...
Okay, I recognize this instantly (please excuse me, I know very little about bounce music). But you mean to tell me that bounce as a genre was built off of this??? Man, I am really getting intrigued over this sh*t now. Is it a thing where countless bounce records used this exact sample, or they just programmed the beats to sound similar to this? I guess I just can't imagine a sample like this being used more than a few times before people get tired of it (I know, I know... "Mardi Gras" was sampled many times in traditional Hip Hop records, but it's not like traditional Hip Hop was built off of just "Mardi Gras", ya know?).
Are there any online history's of bounce music out there? I need an edumacation on this sh*t.
Explain Bounce to me
read specifially the j-dogg and OT posts.
they're a start
Cool, thanks. I see I probably have never even heard real bounce music before, judging from dude's list. But I'm still trying to understand- do all real bounce records sample that "triggerman" beat? I think I would go insane up in a club hearing that same plink plunking sound all night long. I'm probably just not getting it right... I think I really need a copy of that comp "the greatest rap hits from downsouth new orleans" so that I can further my bounce music studies.
You have more patience than me my friend. I couldn't do it. It's like hearing and feeling the repetitive oompa-loompa ranchera/tejano beats bumpin out of a mexican's pickup truck. No thank you sir.
Oddly enough, the "riddims" used over and over again in dancehall and reggae don't bother me. Plus, this mexican likes electro...not that those beats aren't similar/repetitive
And for what it's worth, Phill, when I was doing a magazine assignment in the late 90s & got to meet the Beats by the Pound dudes they tried to explain bounce to me by playing tapes of live jams where cats are shouting out their wards over "Drag Rap" for like the whole jam, on some old school park jam shit where you rock Cerrone or Knock Em Out Sugar Ray for half an hour. I still don't know shit about bounce but that little example & the reverential way they talked about that one record kind of made me understand the importance of that beat in the development of the local scene.
The flattery is appreciated, O, but as O'Shea once said, I ain't tha one. Harris is good to me; I don't need to screw things up by trying to run one of their magazines.
But I guess this is what I'm not understanding- at an old school hip hop jam they might rock one beat for 10 minutes or whatever, but then they'd move on to another completely different beat. And from that one on to another, and another and so on. To me, that was the whole beauty of hip hop (hate to say "was", but I guess it's a past tense thing now)... all these different sounding beats from all these different genres brought together to create a whole new genre. The idea of just rocking to one beat all night long seems very boring to me. I know it's nothing new... go go is pretty much the same thing, as I guess is house and a lot of other forms of dance music. But still... the exact same beat all night??? Does a bounce deejay do some clever shit on the turntables to give it some kind of variation or add his own flavor to it??? I guess if you're up in the club high on embalming fluid and trying to get some pussy it doesn't even matter in the long run.
Hey, now, let's not oversimplify... bounce actually consists of two beats: "Triggerman" and what people refer to as "the brown beats".
The best example of the Triggerman being brought in over
the Brown Beats is the Cheeky Blakk song "Twerk With It".
It's on the Mobo Click compilation track 9 as "Terk With It".
Listen to a snippet here, track 9:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000004CV6/qid=1123168337/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-7277935-1079830?v=glance&s=music
Can anyone identify the origin of the Brown Beats, i.e. the
beat you hear that is not the Triggerman?
Noone down there seems to remember.
Its all realitive man. its all the same drums.
Not that I think it shoulda made the list but... A whole shit load of downtempo and d&b artists have fuked with that song. Or is downtempo not hiphop either?
Re: "Amen Brother" - that break more or less has fueled DnB production but in the hip-hop world, it's not remotely as distinguished. A good break but not what I'd call seminal.
And the fact that "Summer in the City" is huge in downtempo only further empowers my argument.