that krugman editorial up thread is b.s., dude had this asshurt article totally misunderstanding obama's 'praise' of reagan too ... hes got it out for him because he wants someone who's gonna be a 'fighter' or whatever, stupid defeatist 'to the barricades!' nonsense.
I never failed to be impressed by the general level of discourse on Soul Strut when I begin to compare it to other forums. People who comment on places like the NY Times, Huffington Post, Slate - typically considered popular among the intelligensia - commonly have posters who are so dickhead in their attitude, so ignorant in their views, they make even the worst posters here look pretty smart, balanced and insightful by comparison.
btw New Mexico started counting provisionals, it was originally a 1,092 vote difference. I was just there, only saw Barack ads on TV but they were kind of boring. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iCc92PUVIygkNFF0LiBuVuSFmLXAD8ULA95O0 Democrats prepared Wednesday to examine more than 17,000 provisional ballots that will determine a winner in New Mexico's tightly contested presidential caucus.
Here is the article for people to lazy to follow links: Among Latino and Asian American circles, Super Tuesday brought a sense of giddiness. Thanks to the central importance of California to the primary elections, here was a chance to not just be heard, but to be recognized as a voting bloc right up there with the privileged masses of Iowa or New Hampshire. Boy, did they make some noise.
Email Print Comment In California, while Obama took a plurality of white voters (including white males) and the overwhelming majority of African American voters, Hillary won the popular vote by 8 points. So how did Hillary make her 10% margin of victory? A big part of the answer was in the Latino and Asian American votes. A CNN exit poll last night indicated that Latinos in California went for Hillary by a 2-1 margin, and Asian Americans went for her 3-1. Democratic polls showed Hillary winning Latinos by 3-1.
Soon we'll be hearing a number of crackpot theories as to why this was so. Are Latinos and Asian Americans in fact slightly more conservative on immigration issues than everyone previously thought? Ridiculous. Are Latinos and Asian Americans unwilling to bring themselves to vote for a Black man? Get out of here with that.[/b]
The reason Hillary won is because the Latino and Asian American votes remain emergent, not yet insurgent.
Emergent voting blocs respond to leaders in their community. If the candidate wins the leader, she wins her followers. Insurgent voting blocs instead respond to calls for change, and may focus more on single issues or agendas. If a candidate stakes out a good position, she captures the community. Hillary played the politics of emergence.
Early, she locked down important leaders in the Latino and Asian American communities. In Los Angeles, that meant securing Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa's support, and the predominantly Latino unions that have supported him. She also landed the support of Fabian Nunez and Dolores Huerta. In San Francisco, that meant seizing on Mayor Gavin Newsom's popularity amongst Asian Americans. She also captured a who's who of Asian American elected officials starting with Controller John Chiang and moving on down. Just as important, Hillary's campaign locked up a huge number of the leading Latino and Asian American party operatives--the people who actually deliver the voters.
All of them--from Villaraigosa to the Asian American precinct captain--were responding to what might be called aspirational politics. The individuals become proxies for the community. You hear them say in their campaigns, "When I win, you win." Clinton's main advantage is that she has the access to power and the party structures that deliver promises to officials and operatives. Obama doesn't. Emergent politics favors individuals seeking power. Think of it this way: Hillary, the woman candidate, is bringing Latino and Asian American leaders into the old-boy's network.
These leaders, in turn, deliver votes via their community's structures of power: business groups, labor unions, voter groups, community organizations. Those groups tend to deliver an older voter who is already "in the game", who can directly benefit from the opening of the old-boy's network. "Experience" really is a cover for "access".
Latinos and Asian Americans in California are overwhelmingly Democratic, and will likely remain so for a very long time because of Reep immigration demagoguery. But they also tend to be more mainstream and conservative. Remember that, to the great embarrassment of many Asian Americans, it was the influential Chinese American Democratic Club in San Francisco that sponsored anti-affirmative attacks on the prestigious Lowell High School. It's also possible Obama's call for change is received differently even among dissatisfied immigrants. Who better understands the disruption and dislocation that change can bring?
And finally, one should never underestimate the ability of Democratic party operatives to screw up a good thing. Although Obama is from Hawai'i, has Asian family members, and is beloved there, his largely white campaign staff blew it big time early in the campaign last year. After circulating an anti-outsourcing memo to the media that called Hillary "the Democrat from Punjab", Obama was forced to apologize and distance himself from his staff. The episode barely rippled outside of the community, barely inside of the community, to be fair. But it had a number of Asian American political insiders and campaign donors bolting for Hillary's camp.
Emergent groups are highly sensitive to perceived snubs. The so-called 80-20 Initiative, an effort led by former Delaware lieutenant governor S.B. Woo (a Democrat) to unite 80% of the Asian American electorate "defeat Obama", began when Obama staffers answered a yes-no questionnaire with a "well, yes but..." on a question asking whether he'd promote affirmative action for Asian Americans. Hillary's campaign, with ample access to Latino and Asian American leaders, never made any of these mistakes.
So Hillary won by old party-style top-down appeals to Latinos and Asian Americans. Dems shouldn't rest thinking that this strategy will hold for long. Younger Latino and Asian American voters were energized by Obama, and formed a visible and crucial part of his GOTV ground troops. They had an impact. Roberto Lovato notes that Obama was able to bring down Hillary's overall 4-1 advantage among Latino voters to a 3-2 advantage by Super Tuesday. It could be argued that Obama's bottom-up machinery hasn't yet taken full advantage of the pent-up energy amongst young Brown and Yellow voters.
When that power is unleashed, it will be unpredictable. The 1.5 generation, young Latino and Asian Americans from the ages of 16-40 who were born elsewhere but raised multilingual and multicultural in the U.S., represents a massive demographic bulge in those communities only beginning to feel itself. Before long, they will turn their communities' emergent vote into an insurgent vote. And then the country will really discover not just the necessity of the Latino and Asian American vote, but what it is that they really want.
I hope this brings an end to the Asians/Latinos hate Blacks that has been so popular here.
Or he could choose a Black or a Woman to contrast with the Dems. Elizabeth Dole, that excongressman from Oklahoma?
You may have hit on an interesting strategey. Will McCain run with this guy?
He's not Southern, but he is certainly a water-bearer for the GOP platform, and is high on the likability scale. As a former Lt Gov he is not likely seen as an 'insider'. May be too moderate for the Southern Evangelical wing.
Or he could choose a Black or a Woman to contrast with the Dems. Elizabeth Dole, that excongressman from Oklahoma?
You may have hit on an interesting strategey. Will McCain run with this guy?
He's not Southern, but he is certainly a water-bearer for the GOP platform, and is high on the likability scale. As a former Lt Gov he is not likely seen as an 'insider'. May be too moderate for the Southern Evangelical wing.
My Baltimore relatives will be mad at you when they find out you don't consider Maryland the South.
Or he could choose a Black or a Woman to contrast with the Dems. Elizabeth Dole, that excongressman from Oklahoma?
You may have hit on an interesting strategey. Will McCain run with this guy?
He's not Southern, but he is certainly a water-bearer for the GOP platform, and is high on the likability scale. As a former Lt Gov he is not likely seen as an 'insider'. May be too moderate for the Southern Evangelical wing.
My Baltimore relatives will be mad at you when they find out you don't consider Maryland the South.
Yeah, I think MD cuts both ways on that! Hey, more reason for McCain to put him on the ticket!
Why am I giving the GOP good ideas? I hate myself.
"January 14, 2008 -- PRESIDENTIAL hopeful Barack Obama claims to run a clean campaign, but someone in his camp took a swipe at Hillary Clinton through the candidate's theme song. As Obama and his wife, Michelle, strolled triumphantly into his victory party in Des Moines, Iowa, on Jan. 3, Jay-Z's "99 Problems" was blaring. In it, Jay raps, "I got 99 problems, but a bitch ain't one."
Some listeners took it as a not-so-sly reference to Hillary."
She has many more years of experience. She is battle tested.
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
Its interesting the vote was so skewed within these groups, but Cali won't really be in play in the general election anyway right?
really she's not a bad choice (hatt me now).
Policy wise, I agree, but strategically, as I said in the other thread to crickets
If the Dems, for once, have a young, dynamic, engaging, pretty damn inspiring candidate, and pass him over for the hated, detached, establishment candidate thats been waiting in line the longest, they'll probably get what they deserve.
She has many more years of experience. She is battle tested.
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
actually if you count the years of elected office each has served, Obama may actually be ahead.
but it's quite frankly foolish to totally discount Hillary's 8 years (living) in the White House, not to mention her time in the Arkansas governor's mansion.
I don't really think Jeff is discarding the race issue, as much as he's saying that it does not explain Hilary's win. Obama clearly faces White, Latino and Asian voters who will not vote for him because he is a black man. But the fact that more white men voted for him than for Hilary, and yet Hilary trounced him in the Latino and Asian vote shows that there is something left to be explained.
You could argue that the racism he faces is greater in Latino and Asian communities, or that white men who won't vote for a black president vote republican anyways, or that white men are more biased against a woman president than the Latino or Asian communities, but I find it hard to fathom an argument where anti-black racism is more prevalent with minorities than with the white establishment.
Regardless, I don't think there's really no good way to get a grasp on racial/gender biases here - there are a lot of people who might say they're okay with a Black man or a woman in office, because it's politically correct, but when they get to the polls and actually vote, you never really know if there is racism/sexism involved in their decision - and it may be subconcious, in which case they don't know either.
She has many more years of experience. She is battle tested.
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
yeah, basically. There's the "myth" of Hillary's 35 years of experience. 35 years goes all the way back to when she was in law school and includes her time at wal-mart and her time as first lady when she had no security clearance and didn't even have a clear cut agenda like Nancy Reagan's, "just say no" initiative. All we got was some alleged African proverb that the right wingnuts again equate to socialism, "it takes a village, blah blah blah..."
Just because you can tell me where the bathroom is in the white house, doesn't mean you have experience there.
She has many more years of experience. She is battle tested.
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
actually if you count the years of elected office each has served, Obama may actually be ahead.
but it's quite frankly foolish to totally discount Hillary's 8 years (living) in the White House, not to mention her time in the Arkansas governor's mansion.
It's foolish to COUNT those years. What was she doing? With no security clearance and a failed initiative, she was reduced to flying around the world as a spokesperson for American goodwill. Basically, she was Mrs. Universe for 8 years.
She has many more years of experience. She is battle tested.
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
yeah, basically. There's the "myth" of Hillary's 35 years of experience. 35 years goes all the way back to when she was in law school and includes her time at wal-mart and her time as first lady when she had no security clearance and didn't even have a clear cut agenda like Nancy Reagan's, "just say no" initiative. All we got was some alleged African proverb that the right wingnuts again equate to socialism, "it takes a village, blah blah blah..."
Just because you can tell me where the bathroom is in the white house, doesn't mean you have experience there.
i gotta call you out - you stole this from a bill o'reilly monologue
She has many more years of experience. She is battle tested.
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
yeah, basically. There's the "myth" of Hillary's 35 years of experience. 35 years goes all the way back to when she was in law school and includes her time at wal-mart and her time as first lady when she had no security clearance and didn't even have a clear cut agenda like Nancy Reagan's, "just say no" initiative. All we got was some alleged African proverb that the right wingnuts again equate to socialism, "it takes a village, blah blah blah..."
Just because you can tell me where the bathroom is in the white house, doesn't mean you have experience there.
i gotta call you out - you stole this from a bill o'reilly monologue
Dude, I don't watch no falafel! That's just the truth.
She has many more years of experience. She is battle tested.
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
actually if you count the years of elected office each has served, Obama may actually be ahead.
but it's quite frankly foolish to totally discount Hillary's 8 years (living) in the White House, not to mention her time in the Arkansas governor's mansion.
It's foolish to COUNT those years. What was she doing? With no security clearance and a failed initiative, she was reduced to flying around the world as a spokesperson for American goodwill. Basically, she was Mrs. Universe for 8 years.
Smile and wave for the camera....
dude I don't equate her years in elected office with her years as first lady. but like I said to "totally discount" them doesn't make sense either.
schitt if her years in the White House were totally insignificant, then how do you explain the tremendous hate she engendered among conservatives during those years?
She has many more years of experience. She is battle tested.
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
actually if you count the years of elected office each has served, Obama may actually be ahead.
but it's quite frankly foolish to totally discount Hillary's 8 years (living) in the White House, not to mention her time in the Arkansas governor's mansion.
It's foolish to COUNT those years. What was she doing? With no security clearance and a failed initiative, she was reduced to flying around the world as a spokesperson for American goodwill. Basically, she was Mrs. Universe for 8 years.
Smile and wave for the camera....
dude I don't equate her years in elected office with her years as first lady. but like I said to "totally discount" them doesn't make sense either.
schitt if her years in the White House were totally insignificant, then how do you explain the tremendous hate she engendered among conservatives during those years?
1. Hate by association 2. sexism 3. the appearance of shady business dealings before Bill got elected 4. evangelicals pissed for her standing by Bill through adultery (contradictory to their own teachings) 5. most importantly... the perception of the Clintons as socialists.
They never bring up any of her "accomplishments" as a reason to hate her. If you know of an example, I'd like to hear it.
Comments
good luck getting mandates passed, kvh
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/06/politics/main3799059.shtml
(AP) Hillary Rodham Clinton loaned her campaign $5 million late last month as Barack Obama outraised and outspent her in the Democratic presidential race
http://thepage.time.com/2008/02/06/page-exclusive-some-clinton-senior-staff-working-without-pay/
I never failed to be impressed by the general level of discourse on Soul Strut when I begin to compare it to other forums. People who comment on places like the NY Times, Huffington Post, Slate - typically considered popular among the intelligensia - commonly have posters who are so dickhead in their attitude, so ignorant in their views, they make even the worst posters here look pretty smart, balanced and insightful by comparison.
What is wrong with the interwebs?
it's a series of tubes. that's the problem.
Great article. Jeff hit it right on the nail there.
To rep my small personal experience, the college-age Asian voters I've talked to play the experience card very consistently as well.
btw New Mexico started counting provisionals, it was originally a 1,092 vote difference. I was just there, only saw Barack ads on TV but they were kind of boring.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iCc92PUVIygkNFF0LiBuVuSFmLXAD8ULA95O0
Democrats prepared Wednesday to examine more than 17,000 provisional ballots that will determine a winner in New Mexico's tightly contested presidential caucus.
Here is the article for people to lazy to follow links:
Among Latino and Asian American circles, Super Tuesday brought a sense of giddiness. Thanks to the central importance of California to the primary elections, here was a chance to not just be heard, but to be recognized as a voting bloc right up there with the privileged masses of Iowa or New Hampshire. Boy, did they make some noise.
Email
Print
Comment
In California, while Obama took a plurality of white voters (including white males) and the overwhelming majority of African American voters, Hillary won the popular vote by 8 points. So how did Hillary make her 10% margin of victory? A big part of the answer was in the Latino and Asian American votes. A CNN exit poll last night indicated that Latinos in California went for Hillary by a 2-1 margin, and Asian Americans went for her 3-1. Democratic polls showed Hillary winning Latinos by 3-1.
Soon we'll be hearing a number of crackpot theories as to why this was so. Are Latinos and Asian Americans in fact slightly more conservative on immigration issues than everyone previously thought? Ridiculous. Are Latinos and Asian Americans unwilling to bring themselves to vote for a Black man? Get out of here with that.[/b]
The reason Hillary won is because the Latino and Asian American votes remain emergent, not yet insurgent.
Emergent voting blocs respond to leaders in their community. If the candidate wins the leader, she wins her followers. Insurgent voting blocs instead respond to calls for change, and may focus more on single issues or agendas. If a candidate stakes out a good position, she captures the community. Hillary played the politics of emergence.
Early, she locked down important leaders in the Latino and Asian American communities. In Los Angeles, that meant securing Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa's support, and the predominantly Latino unions that have supported him. She also landed the support of Fabian Nunez and Dolores Huerta. In San Francisco, that meant seizing on Mayor Gavin Newsom's popularity amongst Asian Americans. She also captured a who's who of Asian American elected officials starting with Controller John Chiang and moving on down. Just as important, Hillary's campaign locked up a huge number of the leading Latino and Asian American party operatives--the people who actually deliver the voters.
All of them--from Villaraigosa to the Asian American precinct captain--were responding to what might be called aspirational politics. The individuals become proxies for the community. You hear them say in their campaigns, "When I win, you win." Clinton's main advantage is that she has the access to power and the party structures that deliver promises to officials and operatives. Obama doesn't. Emergent politics favors individuals seeking power. Think of it this way: Hillary, the woman candidate, is bringing Latino and Asian American leaders into the old-boy's network.
These leaders, in turn, deliver votes via their community's structures of power: business groups, labor unions, voter groups, community organizations. Those groups tend to deliver an older voter who is already "in the game", who can directly benefit from the opening of the old-boy's network. "Experience" really is a cover for "access".
Latinos and Asian Americans in California are overwhelmingly Democratic, and will likely remain so for a very long time because of Reep immigration demagoguery. But they also tend to be more mainstream and conservative. Remember that, to the great embarrassment of many Asian Americans, it was the influential Chinese American Democratic Club in San Francisco that sponsored anti-affirmative attacks on the prestigious Lowell High School. It's also possible Obama's call for change is received differently even among dissatisfied immigrants. Who better understands the disruption and dislocation that change can bring?
And finally, one should never underestimate the ability of Democratic party operatives to screw up a good thing. Although Obama is from Hawai'i, has Asian family members, and is beloved there, his largely white campaign staff blew it big time early in the campaign last year. After circulating an anti-outsourcing memo to the media that called Hillary "the Democrat from Punjab", Obama was forced to apologize and distance himself from his staff. The episode barely rippled outside of the community, barely inside of the community, to be fair. But it had a number of Asian American political insiders and campaign donors bolting for Hillary's camp.
Emergent groups are highly sensitive to perceived snubs. The so-called 80-20 Initiative, an effort led by former Delaware lieutenant governor S.B. Woo (a Democrat) to unite 80% of the Asian American electorate "defeat Obama", began when Obama staffers answered a yes-no questionnaire with a "well, yes but..." on a question asking whether he'd promote affirmative action for Asian Americans. Hillary's campaign, with ample access to Latino and Asian American leaders, never made any of these mistakes.
So Hillary won by old party-style top-down appeals to Latinos and Asian Americans. Dems shouldn't rest thinking that this strategy will hold for long. Younger Latino and Asian American voters were energized by Obama, and formed a visible and crucial part of his GOTV ground troops. They had an impact. Roberto Lovato notes that Obama was able to bring down Hillary's overall 4-1 advantage among Latino voters to a 3-2 advantage by Super Tuesday. It could be argued that Obama's bottom-up machinery hasn't yet taken full advantage of the pent-up energy amongst young Brown and Yellow voters.
When that power is unleashed, it will be unpredictable. The 1.5 generation, young Latino and Asian Americans from the ages of 16-40 who were born elsewhere but raised multilingual and multicultural in the U.S., represents a massive demographic bulge in those communities only beginning to feel itself. Before long, they will turn their communities' emergent vote into an insurgent vote. And then the country will really discover not just the necessity of the Latino and Asian American vote, but what it is that they really want.
I hope this brings an end to the Asians/Latinos hate Blacks that has been so popular here.
You may have hit on an interesting strategey. Will McCain run with this guy?
He's not Southern, but he is certainly a water-bearer for the GOP platform, and is high on the likability scale. As a former Lt Gov he is not likely seen as an 'insider'. May be too moderate for the Southern Evangelical wing.
My Baltimore relatives will be mad at you when they find out you don't consider Maryland the South.
Yeah, I think MD cuts both ways on that! Hey, more reason for McCain to put him on the ticket!
Why am I giving the GOP good ideas? I hate myself.
bye bye!
Romney To Quit Presidential Race
after all:
really she's not a bad choice (hatt me now).
there's no reason to be ashamed of your community for voting for her.
I hear what you're saying - I think the issue has more to do with the disproportionate support leaning towards one candidate vs. another.
I think pinning all of it on race is overstating things. I think removing racism from the possible equation is understating it.
Like JP, I thought Jeff brings some good ideas into the convo but the way he brushes the possibility of racism being a factor is frankly surprising.
http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/prin...rock_142152.htm
"January 14, 2008 -- PRESIDENTIAL hopeful Barack Obama claims to run a clean campaign, but someone in his camp took a swipe at Hillary Clinton through the candidate's theme song.
As Obama and his wife, Michelle, strolled triumphantly into his victory party in Des Moines, Iowa, on Jan. 3, Jay-Z's "99 Problems" was blaring. In it, Jay raps, "I got 99 problems, but a bitch ain't one."
Some listeners took it as a not-so-sly reference to Hillary."
Isn't the only elected office she's held the one she's holding now as opposed to Obama's 8 years in the State Congress prior to holding the seats he's holding now?
Policy wise, I agree, but strategically, as I said in the other thread to crickets
actually if you count the years of elected office each has served, Obama may actually be ahead.
but it's quite frankly foolish to totally discount Hillary's 8 years (living) in the White House, not to mention her time in the Arkansas governor's mansion.
You could argue that the racism he faces is greater in Latino and Asian communities, or that white men who won't vote for a black president vote republican anyways, or that white men are more biased against a woman president than the Latino or Asian communities, but I find it hard to fathom an argument where anti-black racism is more prevalent with minorities than with the white establishment.
Regardless, I don't think there's really no good way to get a grasp on racial/gender biases here - there are a lot of people who might say they're okay with a Black man or a woman in office, because it's politically correct, but when they get to the polls and actually vote, you never really know if there is racism/sexism involved in their decision - and it may be subconcious, in which case they don't know either.
yeah, basically. There's the "myth" of Hillary's 35 years of experience. 35 years goes all the way back to when she was in law school and includes her time at wal-mart and her time as first lady when she had no security clearance and didn't even have a clear cut agenda like Nancy Reagan's, "just say no" initiative. All we got was some alleged African proverb that the right wingnuts again equate to socialism, "it takes a village, blah blah blah..."
Just because you can tell me where the bathroom is in the white house, doesn't mean you have experience there.
It's foolish to COUNT those years. What was she doing? With no security clearance and a failed initiative, she was reduced to flying around the world as a spokesperson for American goodwill. Basically, she was Mrs. Universe for 8 years.
Smile and wave for the camera....
i gotta call you out - you stole this from a bill o'reilly monologue
Dude, I don't watch no falafel! That's just the truth.
dude I don't equate her years in elected office with her years as first lady. but like I said to "totally discount" them doesn't make sense either.
schitt if her years in the White House were totally insignificant, then how do you explain the tremendous hate she engendered among conservatives during those years?
When I asked her why she said....
"If she's too weak to stand up to Bill's cheating and kick him to the curb how the heck is she gonna stand up to our enemies".
Not saying I agree but it was an interesting female perspective.
1. Hate by association
2. sexism
3. the appearance of shady business dealings before Bill got elected
4. evangelicals pissed for her standing by Bill through adultery (contradictory to their own teachings)
5. most importantly... the perception of the Clintons as socialists.
They never bring up any of her "accomplishments" as a reason to hate her. If you know of an example, I'd like to hear it.
of course they don't.