I love that the show has inspired his level of scrutiny and analysis. It's not unprecedented of course - look at all the Lost junkies - but people who thought the show's ending was shite have to at least admit: it's made for pretty amazing dialogue and debate.
I have to admit: I don't disagree with this guy's read of the symbolism in the episode. I never really thought about the "Last Supper" ref but it seems kind of obvious in hindsight. The lingering question for me though is that there might be 1001 things suggesting, "he's about to die" except for the most basic one: we don't see it happen nor is there anything that would lend itself to a direct reading as such: a gun in hand, Members Only guy coming out of the bathroom and walking up to the back of Tony's head, etc. Symbolism is great, it's rich, blah blah blah but if the key question here is: "does Tony die or not?" then I don't think it makes much sense to have that question answered symbolically or even hinted at, as such. All the death symbolism could equally apply to the "death" of the show if you really want to get metaphoric about it.
But hey, I love this debate and I love how unresolved it is.
there might be 1001 things suggesting, "he's about to die" except for the most basic one: we don't see it happen nor is there anything that would lend itself to a direct reading as such: a gun in hand, Members Only guy coming out of the bathroom and walking up to the back of Tony's head, etc. Symbolism is great, it's rich, blah blah blah but if the key question here is: "does Tony die or not?" then I don't think it makes much sense to have that question answered symbolically or even hinted at, as such. All the death symbolism could equally apply to the "death" of the show if you really want to get metaphoric about it.
Why is any of that necessary?
I think the boat scene flashback is as obvious as it gets. I don't disagree with any of the guy's analysis either. Could you really imagine the show ending with Tony (and perhaps AJ) getting bodied in front of Carm? That couldn't be more heavy handed.
Tony died. You must deal. It makes total sense to answer the question of Tony's death symbolically - as you aptly point out, this ending has had everyone freaking for a couple weeks now.
I think the boat scene flashback is as obvious as it gets.
See, to me, it's *obvious* that they showed that scene at the end of the penultimate episode as Tony cradles the AR-10 given to him by Bobby Baccala that the importance of the flashback is Tony reflecting on *Bobby's* death, which just happened.
People act like they showed that flashback during "Made in America". They didn't.
Come on dude this is not a show that deals in single-meaning absolutes. The fact that it was not in the same episode is meaningless; of course Bobby's death triggered the memory.... simultaneously it foreshadows Tony's demise in the finale.
You're wrong. I admire your loyal, puppydog-like faith in Tony's survival though...
I just can't past the fact that it would be completely random. If you follow the show, all the storylines (at least external mob drama to the Soprano family) were wrapped up. So you're left w/ Tony got clipped by some dude we've never seen for some reason we'll never know? That doesn't fit w/ how ANY of the mob drama played out over the prior 84 episodes.
I'm sticking to my theory that the final scene is Chase having fun somewhat at his viewers' expense. Chase said "It's all there." Almost all remaining plotlines and relationships are revisitied and somehow addressed throughout the final episode. The immediate scene preceeding the one at Holsten's is Tony and Junior. How fitting would that have been to end it right there w/ two of the main Soprano family honchos? Instead, you get this fake drama built through a suspensefully shot and edited scene with characters that mean nothing to nobody. The viewer, thinking "there's ten minutes left and surely something is happening here" ramps up all these scenarios attendantly. But there is nothing prior to base it on, just the need to feel like "something big is going to happen at the end here."
We got whacked. The Soprano family, in all their greed and misguidedness, did not deserve a fade to black. THat would equate to a happy ending. Instead your left w/ the paranoia they each will live with for the rest of their lives.
Just my take. LIke Bob Harris, I'm not saying I'm definitely right. That's what I got out of the art.
So you're left w/ Tony got clipped by some dude we've never seen for some reason we'll never know?
I mean he hit the boss of New York, is that a good enough reason for you?
He was given tacit approval by the "acting" boss of NY (as Phil was in hiding). You don't agree that Phil's crew had abandoned him? If not, I don't think you've invested enough importance in the cell-phone convo between Butchie and Phil. That scene was pretty huge. Going back to 6a, Butchie was a thorn in Tony's side that he didn't even know about. Butchie flipped in that scene though. He was on the front lines w/ his ass in the wind and PHil's in hiding giving orders and tawmbout fuckin' w/ Butchie's shit when he gets back. It was a wrap for Phil after that. To me it's more plausible to believe that Butchie was good on his word from the sit-down than to think he/his crew would go back on that word, with no on-screen reference or mention whatsoever.
So you're left w/ Tony got clipped by some dude we've never seen for some reason we'll never know?
I mean he hit the boss of New York, is that a good enough reason for you?
He was given tacit approval by the "acting" boss of NY (as Phil was in hiding). You don't agree that Phil's crew had abandoned him? If not, I don't think you've invested enough importance in the cell-phone convo between Butchie and Phil. That scene was pretty huge. Going back to 6a, Butchie was a thorn in Tony's side that he didn't even know about. Butchie flipped in that scene though. He was on the front lines w/ his ass in the wind and PHil's in hiding giving orders and tawmbout fuckin' w/ Butchie's shit when he gets back. It was a wrap for Phil after that. To me it's more plausible to believe that Butchie was good on his word from the sit-down than to think he/his crew would go back on that word, with no on-screen reference or mention whatsoever.
OK, I hear you. But still... I mean it's not like the man has no enemies.
I have no investment in wanting Tony to live. But the scene we're all debating just doesn't play out right to me that we're supposed to arrive at the conclusion that Tony dies. It doesn't matter of there are 1001 hints about it. It doesn't wash - nothing in the scene FEELS right to arrive at that conclusion. And obviously, that's subjective and operates on faith EXCEPT for the simple point that: we don't see Tony die nor is there anything even vaguely explicit to indicate this. I'm not grasping at straws to arrive at that conclusion - doing a English PhD level reading of the episode is grasping. I'm simply going on what's in front of the audience.
I'll say this much, part of the reason why I want to believe that Tony doesn't die is because if the only way Chase could impart this is through the method he took...well, that's kind of lame. And maybe I want to believe that the show ends stronger the way I think it ends rather than thinking, "oh, Tony got got!"
To me, all this death symbolism - which I accept and think is quite fascinating - is about the end of the show. Obviously, the blank out at the end is a tearing down of the 4th wall. If that's the case, then why wouldn't all this gesturing towards "endings" be reflective of the show itself rather than the literal death of Tony? I mean, if Tony is meant to die, why not do something more than having Members Only guy walk into a bathroom (and not just that, but disregarded by Tony as a non-threat)?
Anyways, we can go in circles on this forever. And again, I love that quality of it.
Completely mutual JP. THat article got me jazzed and I dig that ep if for no other reason than the mindfuckery. Even prior to the diner scene everything was addressed pretty well. It almost doesn't matter if he lives or dies.
How about Tony *did* die and we get a 2+ hour movie w/ Paulie Walnuts as the Boss!
I miss this shit already though bros. Mormons...surfers...Kiwis....whatever the fuck the Meadowlands is.....none of that shit is filling the void. At least the last Entourage ep was pretty damn killer.
I'm hoping Entourage can manage to pull it together... I thought this was the last season, then all of a sudden they pop out a new one? The season that just ended (prior to this past Sunday's ep) was piss poor. I don't have much faith considering that the new plot is still FUCKING MEDELLIN. Jesus Christ.
Oliver I'm just not buying it - "whack the audience"? That seems like such a pussy way to go out. The one thing that I agree with the Hot 97 crowd on is that something needed to happen. And I believe the ending was exactly what they wanted, only that it was too damn smart for them to figure it out. As for whether he lived or died there is just too much symbolism to the uninitiated, naked eye pointing towards death. Each layer that's pulled back through analysis reveals yet more of the same symbolism.
I miss this shit already though bros. Mormons...surfers...Kiwis....whatever the fuck the Meadowlands is.....none of that shit is filling the void. At least the the Wire has one more season coming up[/b] .
seriously though my Sundays right now are even more depressing than they were in high school.
He was given tacit approval by the "acting" boss of NY (as Phil was in hiding). You don't agree that Phil's crew had abandoned him? If not, I don't think you've invested enough importance in the cell-phone convo between Butchie and Phil. That scene was pretty huge. Going back to 6a, Butchie was a thorn in Tony's side that he didn't even know about. Butchie flipped in that scene though. He was on the front lines w/ his ass in the wind and PHil's in hiding giving orders and tawmbout fuckin' w/ Butchie's shit when he gets back. It was a wrap for Phil after that. To me it's more plausible to believe that Butchie was good on his word from the sit-down than to think he/his crew would go back on that word, with no on-screen reference or mention whatsoever.
I think the boat scene flashback is as obvious as it gets.
See, to me, it's *obvious* that they showed that scene at the end of the penultimate episode as Tony cradles the AR-10 given to him by Bobby Baccala that the importance of the flashback is Tony reflecting on *Bobby's* death, which just happened.
^^^ exactly. Bobby dies, so they flashback to a scene about Bobby and Tony talking about death. I don't see what it has to do with Tony dying (or not).
I think the boat scene flashback is as obvious as it gets.
See, to me, it's *obvious* that they showed that scene at the end of the penultimate episode as Tony cradles the AR-10 given to him by Bobby Baccala that the importance of the flashback is Tony reflecting on *Bobby's* death, which just happened.
^^^ exactly. Bobby dies, so they flashback to a scene about Bobby and Tony talking about death. I don't see what it has to do with Tony dying (or not).
Uh, because it EXACTLY mirrors the way the show ends???
Ever hear of foreshadowing?
Bobby dies... Tony flashes back... Chase uses the opportunity to add another hint as to what really happens in the finale.
Almost allabout 10% of the [/b] remaining plotlines and relationships are revisitied and somehow addressed throughout the final episode.
Please rootless. I'm talking serious plotlines that mean something. Not Russians and dead strippers and peyote trips and shit.
Janice. Meadow. AJ. CArm. Paulie. The Parisis. NY. Junior. What else do you feel was missed? I'm not buying it.
dude read my previous posts. I am the LAST guy to pine over Pine Barons.
there are MANY loose ends.
and while I agree that most MAJOR remaining plotlines and relationships are revisitied, they were almost all given a pretty pathetic treatment.
Meadow? Oh great, going to law school. OK.
AJ? GTFOHWTBS. Useless character for 7 yrs. All the sudden Tony shows him some tough love like his father showed him (oh the symbolism!) and he gets a job and girlfriend. Great.
Janice: same nagging bitch.
Carmella: trucking along as the loyal wife, continuing to get played/placed in danger by her husband.
Phil: they hated each other so Tony kills him. wow my dome is blown.
the ONLY major plotline that was SOMEWHAT resolved in an INTERESTING way was Dr. Melfie.
(Listen you KNOW how much I love/loved the show. I am just saying, let's not give Chase undue credit. As great as the last episode was or wasn't, the fact remains that he didn't really *resolve* anything in any interesing way.)
That's the whole point of 6a and 6b and really the whole series in general: motherfuckers *don't* change.
AJ was never important for him or his acting. He's important cos he's Tony's son and how important that is for a Italian-American, mob-running male. He turned into Lil' Carmine. I think that's pretty interesting.
Same w/ Meadow. How lofty were her goals and ideals at one point? Tony was emotionally crushed when she told him why she really wanted to be a lawyer. That's not important? Go back and watch the first ep of 6b and note the scene where Tony returns from his brief stint in jail and how Meadow reacts. That's a life poisoned by Tony, basically. And he knows it.
I don't see how anyone could be disappointed in the whole Phil storyline. As mentioned prior, shit ran over 3 seasons. *He* couldn't change, lost his crew's faith behind that and it wasn't prudent in the 2007 business climate. It's not like the old days for these guys. He had to go and I think his death scene wsa one of the best ever on the show.
Y'all not gonna get yr boy on this Sopranos shit. Time has been invested.
So Tony and Butchie parlay, Tony has Phil hit, and he rides off peacefully into the sunset with fam in tow? That's the shit I'm NOT buying.
But that's the intent of the cut, IMO. LIke I said...they are NOT riding off into the sunset. They will always have their livelihood threatened by a co-worker's kid who got pinched for slangin X. They will always be morally bankrupt. "Made in America". Isn't it great? But there will always be a rat. Yes, there will always be the threat of impending death due to the criminal life. It is this sense of paranoia I feel the final scene conveyed.
I don't know what's "NOT to buy". It was pretty darn clear that Butchie knew what Tony would do to Phil and no repercussions would be forthcoming. He wouldn't give up Phil's location (which he didn't know anyway..."Are you close?"), even at the prodding of Lil' Carmine...but he said to Tony "Do what you gotta do.". This was a scene between the top guys involved. What's not to believe?
Y'all not gonna get yr boy on this Sopranos shit. Time has been invested.
hahaha all good mayne. that's the prollem with these threads; sometimes people feel like folls are out to "get" them when relaly they're just expressing their contrary opinions.
I love/loved the show. I spent countless hours watching the episodes but prolly spent 10 times as long thinking about them. I will reminisce about this series for decades to come. shit was deep and I'm sad it's gone.
Y'all not gonna get yr boy on this Sopranos shit. Time has been invested.
hahaha all good mayne. that's the prollem with these threads; sometimes people feel like folls are out to "get" them when relaly they're just expressing their contrary opinions.
I love/loved the show. I spent countless hours watching the episodes but prolly spent 10 times as long thinking about them. I will reminisce about this series for decades to come. shit was deep and I'm sad it's gone.
Naw man I know yr not trying to "get" me. I'm more referring to attention to the most minute of detail and also as you mentioned, time spent in reflection long after. Shit. We still talk about that episode during smoke breaks over here at the job.
Something that was mentioned the other day....when was the last good Italian mafioso film? Casion I guess. Time for someone to step up on that scene.
Comments
I love that the show has inspired his level of scrutiny and analysis. It's not unprecedented of course - look at all the Lost junkies - but people who thought the show's ending was shite have to at least admit: it's made for pretty amazing dialogue and debate.
I have to admit: I don't disagree with this guy's read of the symbolism in the episode. I never really thought about the "Last Supper" ref but it seems kind of obvious in hindsight. The lingering question for me though is that there might be 1001 things suggesting, "he's about to die" except for the most basic one: we don't see it happen nor is there anything that would lend itself to a direct reading as such: a gun in hand, Members Only guy coming out of the bathroom and walking up to the back of Tony's head, etc. Symbolism is great, it's rich, blah blah blah but if the key question here is: "does Tony die or not?" then I don't think it makes much sense to have that question answered symbolically or even hinted at, as such. All the death symbolism could equally apply to the "death" of the show if you really want to get metaphoric about it.
But hey, I love this debate and I love how unresolved it is.
Why is any of that necessary?
I think the boat scene flashback is as obvious as it gets. I don't disagree with any of the guy's analysis either. Could you really imagine the show ending with Tony (and perhaps AJ) getting bodied in front of Carm? That couldn't be more heavy handed.
Tony died. You must deal. It makes total sense to answer the question of Tony's death symbolically - as you aptly point out, this ending has had everyone freaking for a couple weeks now.
I dig that article but I still don't think so.
Yer grasping straws, dude! STRAWS!
See, to me, it's *obvious* that they showed that scene at the end of the penultimate episode as Tony cradles the AR-10 given to him by Bobby Baccala that the importance of the flashback is Tony reflecting on *Bobby's* death, which just happened.
People act like they showed that flashback during "Made in America". They didn't.
You're wrong. I admire your loyal, puppydog-like faith in Tony's survival though...
I just can't past the fact that it would be completely random. If you follow the show, all the storylines (at least external mob drama to the Soprano family) were wrapped up. So you're left w/ Tony got clipped by some dude we've never seen for some reason we'll never know? That doesn't fit w/ how ANY of the mob drama played out over the prior 84 episodes.
I'm sticking to my theory that the final scene is Chase having fun somewhat at his viewers' expense. Chase said "It's all there." Almost all remaining plotlines and relationships are revisitied and somehow addressed throughout the final episode. The immediate scene preceeding the one at Holsten's is Tony and Junior. How fitting would that have been to end it right there w/ two of the main Soprano family honchos? Instead, you get this fake drama built through a suspensefully shot and edited scene with characters that mean nothing to nobody. The viewer, thinking "there's ten minutes left and surely something is happening here" ramps up all these scenarios attendantly. But there is nothing prior to base it on, just the need to feel like "something big is going to happen at the end here."
We got whacked. The Soprano family, in all their greed and misguidedness, did not deserve a fade to black. THat would equate to a happy ending. Instead your left w/ the paranoia they each will live with for the rest of their lives.
Just my take. LIke Bob Harris, I'm not saying I'm definitely right. That's what I got out of the art.
Chill, B.
I mean he hit the boss of New York, is that a good enough reason for you?
He was given tacit approval by the "acting" boss of NY (as Phil was in hiding). You don't agree that Phil's crew had abandoned him? If not, I don't think you've invested enough importance in the cell-phone convo between Butchie and Phil. That scene was pretty huge. Going back to 6a, Butchie was a thorn in Tony's side that he didn't even know about. Butchie flipped in that scene though. He was on the front lines w/ his ass in the wind and PHil's in hiding giving orders and tawmbout fuckin' w/ Butchie's shit when he gets back. It was a wrap for Phil after that. To me it's more plausible to believe that Butchie was good on his word from the sit-down than to think he/his crew would go back on that word, with no on-screen reference or mention whatsoever.
OK, I hear you. But still... I mean it's not like the man has no enemies.
I LOVE YOU B****
I have no investment in wanting Tony to live. But the scene we're all debating just doesn't play out right to me that we're supposed to arrive at the conclusion that Tony dies. It doesn't matter of there are 1001 hints about it. It doesn't wash - nothing in the scene FEELS right to arrive at that conclusion. And obviously, that's subjective and operates on faith EXCEPT for the simple point that: we don't see Tony die nor is there anything even vaguely explicit to indicate this. I'm not grasping at straws to arrive at that conclusion - doing a English PhD level reading of the episode is grasping. I'm simply going on what's in front of the audience.
I'll say this much, part of the reason why I want to believe that Tony doesn't die is because if the only way Chase could impart this is through the method he took...well, that's kind of lame. And maybe I want to believe that the show ends stronger the way I think it ends rather than thinking, "oh, Tony got got!"
To me, all this death symbolism - which I accept and think is quite fascinating - is about the end of the show. Obviously, the blank out at the end is a tearing down of the 4th wall. If that's the case, then why wouldn't all this gesturing towards "endings" be reflective of the show itself rather than the literal death of Tony? I mean, if Tony is meant to die, why not do something more than having Members Only guy walk into a bathroom (and not just that, but disregarded by Tony as a non-threat)?
Anyways, we can go in circles on this forever. And again, I love that quality of it.
How about Tony *did* die and we get a 2+ hour movie w/ Paulie Walnuts as the Boss!
I miss this shit already though bros. Mormons...surfers...Kiwis....whatever the fuck the Meadowlands is.....none of that shit is filling the void. At least the last Entourage ep was pretty damn killer.
that show is the WORST. the last episode was particularly lame.
john from cincinnati has potential.
big love gives me the creeps and puts me in a weird mood.
i want to like the flying concords but i don't.
when does curb your enthusiasm start???!!!!!????
Oliver I'm just not buying it - "whack the audience"? That seems like such a pussy way to go out. The one thing that I agree with the Hot 97 crowd on is that something needed to happen. And I believe the ending was exactly what they wanted, only that it was too damn smart for them to figure it out. As for whether he lived or died there is just too much symbolism to the uninitiated, naked eye pointing towards death. Each layer that's pulled back through analysis reveals yet more of the same symbolism.
Tony is dead!
seriously though my Sundays right now are even more depressing than they were in high school.
^^^ this is the correct analysis.
^^^ exactly. Bobby dies, so they flashback to a scene about Bobby and Tony talking about death. I don't see what it has to do with Tony dying (or not).
Uh, because it EXACTLY mirrors the way the show ends???
Ever hear of foreshadowing?
Bobby dies... Tony flashes back... Chase uses the opportunity to add another hint as to what really happens in the finale.
Please rootless. I'm talking serious plotlines that mean something. Not Russians and dead strippers and peyote trips and shit.
Janice. Meadow. AJ. CArm. Paulie. The Parisis. NY. Junior. What else do you feel was missed? I'm not buying it.
You crazy mang. Anytime they have Billy Walsh that shit is a hoot. The WORST? Far from it.
dude read my previous posts. I am the LAST guy to pine over Pine Barons.
there are MANY loose ends.
and while I agree that most MAJOR remaining plotlines and relationships are revisitied, they were almost all given a pretty pathetic treatment.
Meadow? Oh great, going to law school. OK.
AJ? GTFOHWTBS. Useless character for 7 yrs. All the sudden Tony shows him some tough love like his father showed him (oh the symbolism!) and he gets a job and girlfriend. Great.
Janice: same nagging bitch.
Carmella: trucking along as the loyal wife, continuing to get played/placed in danger by her husband.
Phil: they hated each other so Tony kills him. wow my dome is blown.
the ONLY major plotline that was SOMEWHAT resolved in an INTERESTING way was Dr. Melfie.
(Listen you KNOW how much I love/loved the show. I am just saying, let's not give Chase undue credit. As great as the last episode was or wasn't, the fact remains that he didn't really *resolve* anything in any interesing way.)
AJ was never important for him or his acting. He's important cos he's Tony's son and how important that is for a Italian-American, mob-running male. He turned into Lil' Carmine. I think that's pretty interesting.
Same w/ Meadow. How lofty were her goals and ideals at one point? Tony was emotionally crushed when she told him why she really wanted to be a lawyer. That's not important? Go back and watch the first ep of 6b and note the scene where Tony returns from his brief stint in jail and how Meadow reacts. That's a life poisoned by Tony, basically. And he knows it.
I don't see how anyone could be disappointed in the whole Phil storyline. As mentioned prior, shit ran over 3 seasons. *He* couldn't change, lost his crew's faith behind that and it wasn't prudent in the 2007 business climate. It's not like the old days for these guys. He had to go and I think his death scene wsa one of the best ever on the show.
Y'all not gonna get yr boy on this Sopranos shit. Time has been invested.
But that's the intent of the cut, IMO. LIke I said...they are NOT riding off into the sunset. They will always have their livelihood threatened by a co-worker's kid who got pinched for slangin X. They will always be morally bankrupt. "Made in America". Isn't it great? But there will always be a rat. Yes, there will always be the threat of impending death due to the criminal life. It is this sense of paranoia I feel the final scene conveyed.
I don't know what's "NOT to buy". It was pretty darn clear that Butchie knew what Tony would do to Phil and no repercussions would be forthcoming. He wouldn't give up Phil's location (which he didn't know anyway..."Are you close?"), even at the prodding of Lil' Carmine...but he said to Tony "Do what you gotta do.". This was a scene between the top guys involved. What's not to believe?
hahaha all good mayne. that's the prollem with these threads; sometimes people feel like folls are out to "get" them when relaly they're just expressing their contrary opinions.
I love/loved the show. I spent countless hours watching the episodes but prolly spent 10 times as long thinking about them. I will reminisce about this series for decades to come. shit was deep and I'm sad it's gone.
Naw man I know yr not trying to "get" me. I'm more referring to attention to the most minute of detail and also as you mentioned, time spent in reflection long after. Shit. We still talk about that episode during smoke breaks over here at the job.
Something that was mentioned the other day....when was the last good Italian mafioso film? Casion I guess. Time for someone to step up on that scene.