The whole idea of 'serious lyricists' didn't exist in early days, thats a development that came later.
THAT'S SOME BULLSHIT.
Back in the days cats knew who were the cream of the crop in certain crews. U never used "lyricist". Cats knew if one was an exceptional MC.
Nah I'm not disagreeing with this, the values changed though. People aren't talking about which MC is the livest on stage in the park now. Then there wasn't this divide between 'serious lyricists' and party raps. "serious lyrcist" =/ "exceptional MC"
I donno theres really no point in my arguing at this pt, you guys don't think missy is 'serious' enough for you to consider her a good party rapper and yr obv enjoying baiting me more than discussing it so
I'd say Missy is a good vocalist who works in hip hop idiom.
To say she's an 'Emcee' or a 'Rapper' is to put her in a place where she's judged by the same criteria as Kane, E-40, whatever. She simply hasn't crafted her shit within that lineage, using that criteria, to judge her by it would be unfit, unflattering.
Also, just glossing over early hip hop history you should know cats were well aware of who was innovating lyrically, cats were keeping score as shit got more complex lyrically.
a) 'serious lyricism' of the primative early 80s rap style
or
b) party rap that wasn't meant to be particularly serious real talk?
I go w/ b
I was not alive when that record was released, so i couldn't say for certain how the lyrics resonated with the hip hop listners of the era.
but i do know that you are quoting the intro/chorus of the song. that's like saying is "one love one love one love" serious lyricism?
OK to be fair its not like the verses in the song aren't equally 'silly' (and i dont mean silly as pejorative).
I tend to view the idea that rapping styles are one big progression to more and more 'serious' and 'progressive' styles w/ a little bit of suspicion. Not that rapping hasn't changed a LOT since the early days, i just think treating it as a single stream of progress cheats the complex web of styles and approaches that are going on and implies some sort of 'true direction' that is more a matter of what the listener values than whats actually happened in the music.
sometimes you take this anti-rockist thing a little too far. this "missy elliott is a good rapper" hissy fit is one such occasion.
to me 'take this anti-rockist thing a little too far' = saying things like missy records were only good because of timbo's WEIRD CRAZY SPACED OUT PROGRESSIVE BEATS. Its the Timbo rock critic fetish x100000 RADIOHEAD MEETS JAMES BROWN-ish. How about Missy's early albums were good because they had good party rapping and banging tracks.
I'll take missy's rapping over the group home any day. Speaking of giving all the credit to the dude pulling the strings.
Not sure; i'm just madd that all her records seem to have turned into 80s rehashes or some shit. Plaese leave that nonsense to boring indie rock bands. Cybotron, "Apache," ok we get it,
Not sure; i'm just madd that all her records seem to have turned into 80s rehashes or some shit. Plaese leave that nonsense to boring indie rock bands. Cybotron, "Apache," ok we get it,
Nah,Dogs. She has her bangers that will withstand the test of time.
Is That Your Chick - featuring Jay-Z & Memphis Bleek is shakatak.
My take on Missy is that she's sort of like a cross between Lil Jon at his best and LL Cool J at his worst. On the one hand, she knows how to build on the energy of an instrumental track. She is good at making her vocals a part of the track itself (with the help of Pro Tools, of course), rather than just rapping on top of tracks. That's the kind of dynamic that makes for great party music, almost more in the disco mold than hip-hop (think: 48 tracks of hand claps, whistles, "wooops", call-and-response, heavy repetition, etc.). On the other hand, on the LL Cool J-at-his-worst side, she has a tendency to go after warmed-over, cliche, or straight up laughable lines with such overconfident gusto that it's kind of icky (think: "lost six inches in my waist 4 ya" or "before you come over I need to shave my chocha" alongside Cool J's "uh, my head is like a shark's fin". Anyway, that's how she comes across for me at least. In the end, the formula works more than not, but I find that, outside of the club, none of her lyrics have ever impressed upon me that she is someone I can and should relate to.
I've never though Missy to be that great of a rapper. I've always though she was successful because she was non-threatening and that women could relate to her weight issues. She's always been more of a personality to me than an emcee. When I used to manage the girl's dorms, girls who hated rap always got down to Missy, particularly those with body-issue stuff & low self esteem. These kinds of broads never bumped Lil' Kim.
I've never thought[/b] J5, Pigeon John, Atmosphere, Eyedea, Talib Kweli, etc.[/b] to be that great of rap groups[/b]. I've always thought[/b] they were[/b] successful because they were[/b] non-threatening. They've[/b] always been more lame[/b] to me than emcees[/b]. When I used to live in Berkeley[/b], boys[/b] who hated rap always got down to J5, Pigeon John, Atmosphere, Eyedea, Talib Kweli, etc.[/b], particularly those with body-issue stuff & low self esteem. These kinds of boys[/b] never bumped UGK[/b].
I've never thought[/b] J5, Pigeon John, Atmosphere, Eyedea, Talib Kweli, etc.[/b] to be that great of rap groups[/b]. I've always thought[/b] they were[/b] successful because they were[/b] non-threatening. They've[/b] always been more lame[/b] to me than emcees[/b]. When I used to live in Berkeley[/b], boys[/b] who hated rap always got down to J5, Pigeon John, Atmosphere, Eyedea, Talib Kweli, etc.[/b], particularly those with body-issue stuff & low self esteem. These kinds of boys[/b] never bumped UGK[/b].
Perhaps there should be a "Body Issue Rap" graemlin?
In seriousness, though, if young women that don't fit conventionally narrow standards of beauty find Missy's music empowering, I don't know why that would be a bad thing.
Comments
Where is the gawd Phill?
This flurry of posts should be like catnip to him.
:LilFlipGameOverGraemlin:
I was not alive when that record was released, so i couldn't say for certain how the lyrics resonated with the hip hop listners of the era.
but i do know that you are quoting the intro/chorus of the song. that's like saying is "one love one love one love" serious lyricism?
I'd say Missy is a good vocalist who works in hip hop idiom.
To say she's an 'Emcee' or a 'Rapper' is to put her in a place where she's judged by the same criteria as Kane, E-40, whatever. She simply hasn't crafted her shit within that lineage, using that criteria, to judge her by it would be unfit, unflattering.
Also, just glossing over early hip hop history you should know cats were well aware of who was innovating lyrically, cats were keeping score as shit got more complex lyrically.
OK to be fair its not like the verses in the song aren't equally 'silly' (and i dont mean silly as pejorative).
I tend to view the idea that rapping styles are one big progression to more and more 'serious' and 'progressive' styles w/ a little bit of suspicion. Not that rapping hasn't changed a LOT since the early days, i just think treating it as a single stream of progress cheats the complex web of styles and approaches that are going on and implies some sort of 'true direction' that is more a matter of what the listener values than whats actually happened in the music.
she's a good rapper, she did millenial party raps like few others before or since
fuck this 'she's just an entertainer' bs
(her last couple albums = largely trash obv)
to me 'take this anti-rockist thing a little too far' = saying things like missy records were only good because of timbo's WEIRD CRAZY SPACED OUT PROGRESSIVE BEATS. Its the Timbo rock critic fetish x100000 RADIOHEAD MEETS JAMES BROWN-ish. How about Missy's early albums were good because they had good party rapping and banging tracks.
I'll take missy's rapping over the group home any day. Speaking of giving all the credit to the dude pulling the strings.
Not sure; i'm just madd that all her records seem to have turned into 80s rehashes or some shit. Plaese leave that nonsense to boring indie rock bands. Cybotron, "Apache," ok we get it,
Nah,Dogs. She has her bangers that will withstand the test of time.
Is That Your Chick - featuring Jay-Z & Memphis Bleek is shakatak.
C'mon now.
So what are you saying?
Deej is not the virile young aspiring music journalist he has presented himself as, but is instead an overweight college-age girl?
An interesting theory...
Someone PLAESE turn this into a graemlin of Kim saying "TRUUUUUUE."
I know deej seen her in the video...
Perhaps there should be a "Body Issue Rap" graemlin?
In seriousness, though, if young women that don't fit conventionally narrow standards of beauty find Missy's music empowering, I don't know why that would be a bad thing.