Here on SS the difference seems to be one is a crime [/b] that people applaud(and BTW...I understand the Austin brawl was a 2 on 1 situation) and the other is part of a War, where our enemy is chopping prisoners heads clean off, yet the beating of a prisoner, who may or may not have initiated the violence, is considered outrageous.
Rock--would you like to know the FACTS behind the Austin incident? Because what you're presenting is a very distorted version of the facts.
FACTS:
Two guys (Ayres and Cosmo) were on the sidewalk minding their own business when two couples walked up. One of the guys pushed Ayres face. Ayres said something, then the dude ran over to fight him. In SELF-DEFENSE, Ayres kicked his ass. Or punched him in the dick, depending on who you ask.
The first guy's friend came over to join in, at which point he was struck by Cosmo. Not a 2 on 1 situation, as you state. Nor did A & C initiate violence. And it doesn't sound the least bit like a crime to me.
Oh, and it was two DJs--no rappers involved at all.
Here on SS the difference seems to be one is a crime [/b] that people applaud(and BTW...I understand the Austin brawl was a 2 on 1 situation) and the other is part of a War, where our enemy is chopping prisoners heads clean off, yet the beating of a prisoner, who may or may not have initiated the violence, is considered outrageous.
Rock--would you like to know the FACTS behind the Austin incident? Because what you're presenting is a very distorted version of the facts.
FACTS:
Two guys (Ayres and Cosmo) were on the sidewalk minding their own business when two couples walked up. One of the guys pushed Ayres face. Ayres said something, then the dude ran over to fight him. In SELF-DEFENSE, Ayres kicked his ass. Or punched him in the dick, depending on who you ask.
The first guy's friend came over to join in, at which point he was struck by Cosmo. Not a 2 on 1 situation, as you state. Nor did A & C initiate violence. And it doesn't sound the least bit like a crime to me.
Oh, and it was two DJs--no rappers involved at all.
Was there a crime committed??
Did the people here ask to see the video of someone getting beat??
Was there some bragging going on about beating someone regardless of who started it??
Those were my main contentions....
however,
Since the video was never posted, and the story was never told as above I could only assume what happened....if it was as you state above then my assumptions/details were incorrect. And I apologize if I misrepresented what happened and insulted someone while doing so.
A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees ??? some as young as 10 ??? are also being subjected to rape and torture Aug. 2004 By Neil Mackay
It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. ???The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,??? he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. ???Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door ??? and I saw [the soldier???s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.??? Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped ???the little kid???.
In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: ???[I saw] two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and [a US soldier] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young.???
It???s not certain exactly how many children are being held by coalition forces in Iraq, but a Sunday Herald investigation suggests there are up to 107. Their names are not known, nor is where they are being kept, how long they will be held or what has happened to them during their detention.
Proof of the widespread arrest and detention of children in Iraq by US and UK forces is contained in an internal Unicef report written in June. The report has ??? surprisingly ??? not been made public. A key section on child protection, headed ???Children in Conflict with the Law or with Coalition Forces???, reads: ???In July and August 2003, several meetings were conducted with CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) ??? and Ministry of Justice to address issues related to juvenile justice and the situation of children detained by the coalition forces ??? Unicef is working through a variety of channels to try and learn more about conditions for children who are imprisoned or detained, and to ensure that their rights are respected.???
Another section reads: ???Information on the number, age, gender and conditions of incarceration is limited. In Basra and Karbala children arrested for alleged activities targeting the occupying forces are reported to be routinely transferred to an internee facility in Um Qasr. The categorisation of these children as ???internees??? is worrying since it implies indefinite holding without contact with family, expectation of trial or due process.???
The report also states: ???A detention centre for children was established in Baghdad, where according to ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) a significant number of children were detained. Unicef was informed that the coalition forces were planning to transfer all children in adult facilities to this ???specialised??? child detention centre. In July 2003, Unicef requested a visit to the centre but access was denied. Poor security in the area of the detention centre has prevented visits by independent observers like the ICRC since last December.
???The perceived unjust detention of Iraqi males, including youths, for suspected activities against the occupying forces has become one of the leading causes for the mounting frustration among Iraqi youths and the potential for radicalisation of this population group.???
Journalists in Germany have also been investigating the detention and abuse of children in Iraq. One reporter, Thomas Reutter of the TV programme Report Mainz, interviewed a US army sergeant called Samuel Provance, who is banned from speaking about his six months stationed in Abu Ghraib but told Reutter of how one 16-year-old Iraqi boy was arrested.
???He was terribly afraid,??? Provance said. ???He had the skinniest arms I???ve ever seen. He was trembling all over. His wrists were so thin we couldn???t even put handcuffs on him. Right when I saw him for the first time, and took him for interrogation, I felt sorry for him.
???The interrogation specialists poured water over him and put him into a car. Then they drove with him through the night, and at that time it was very, very cold. Then they smeared him with mud and showed him to his father, who was also in custody. They had tried out other interrogation methods on him, but he wasn???t to be brought to talk. The interrogation specialists told me, after the father had seen his son in this state, his heart broke. He wept and promised to tell them everything they wanted to know.???
An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children???s wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.
???I saw a camp for children there,??? he said. ???Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp.??? Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. ???She was beaten,??? said al-Baz. ???I heard her call out, ???They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.??????
He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily ??? this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child???s father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.
Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army. British soldiers tend to arrest children in towns like Basra, which are under UK control, then hand the youngsters over to the Americans who interrogate them and detain them.
Between January and May this year the Red Cross registered a total of 107 juveniles in detention during 19 visits to six coalition prisons. The aid organisation???s Rana Sidani said they had no complete information about the ages of those detained, or how they had been treated. The deteriorating security situation has prevented the Red Cross visiting all detention centres.
Amnesty International is outraged by the detention of children. It is aware of ???numerous human rights violations against Iraqi juveniles, including detentions, torture and ill-treatment, and killings???. Amnesty has interviewed former detainees who say they???ve seen boys as young as 10 in Abu Ghraib.
The organisation???s leaders have called on the coalition governments to give concrete information on how old the children are, how many are detained, why and where they are being held, and in what circumstances they are being detained. They also want to know if the children have been tortured.
Alistair Hodgett, media director of Amnesty International USA, said the coalition forces needed to be ???transparent??? about their policy of child detentions, adding: ???Secrecy is one thing that rings alarm bells.??? Amnesty was given brief access to one jail in Mosul, he said, but has been repeatedly turned away from all others. He pointed out that even countries ???which don???t have good records???, such as Libya, gave Amnesty access to prisons. ???Denying access just fuels the rumour mill,??? he said.
Hodgett added that British and US troops should not be detaining any Iraqis ??? let alone children ??? following the recent handover of power. ???They should all be held by Iraqi authorities,??? he said. ???When the coalition handed over Saddam they should have handed over the other 3000
detainees.???
The British Ministry of Defence confirmed UK forces had handed over prisoners to US troops, but a spokes man said he did not know the ages of any detainees given to the Americans.
The MoD also admitted it was currently holding one prisoner aged under 18 at Shaibah prison near Um Qasr. Since the invasion Britain has detained, and later released, 65 under-18s. The MoD claimed the ICRC had access to British jails and detainee lists.
High-placed officials in the Pentagon and Centcom told the Sunday Herald that children as young as 14 were being held by US forces. ???We do have juveniles detained,??? a source said. ???They have been detained as they are deemed to be a threat or because they have acted against the coalition or Iraqis.???
Officially, the Pentagon says it is holding ???around 60 juvenile detainees primarily aged 16 and 17???, although when it was pointed out that the Red Cross estimate is substantially higher, a source admitted ???numbers may have gone up, we might have detained more kids???.
Officials would not comment about children under the age of 16 being held prisoner. Sources said: ??????It???s a real challenge ascertaining their ages. Unlike the UK or the US, they don???t have IDs or birth certificates.??? The Sunday Herald has been told, however, that at least five children aged under 16 are being kept at Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca.
A highly placed source in the Pentagon said: ???We have done investigations into accusations of juveniles being abused and raped and can???t find anything that resembles that.???
The Pentagon???s official policy is to segregate juvenile prisoners from the rest of the prison population, and allow young inmates to join family members also being detained. ???Our main concern is that they are not abused or harassed by older detainees. We know they need special treatment,??? an official said.
Pentagon sources said they were unaware how long child prisoners were kept in jail but said their cases were reviewed every 90 days. The last review was early last month. The sources confirmed the children had been questioned and interrogated when initially detained, but could not say whether this was ???an adult-style interrogation???.
The Norwegian government, which is part of the ???coalition of the willing???, has already said it will tell the US that the alleged torture of children is intolerable. Odd Jostein S??ter, parliamentary secretary at the Norwegian prime minister???s office, said: ???Such assaults are unacceptable. It is against international laws and it is also unacceptable from a moral point of view. This is why we react strongly ??? We are addressing this in a very severe and direct way and present concrete demands. This is damaging the struggle for democracy and human rights in Iraq.???
In Denmark, which is also in the coalition, Save the Children called on its government to tell the occupying forces to order the immediate release of child detainees. Neals Hurdal, head of the Danish Save the Children, said the y had heard rumours of children in Basra being maltreated in custody since May.
Human Rights Watch (HRW) said it was ???extremely disturbed??? that the coalition was holding children for long periods in jails notorious for torture. HRW also criticised the policy of categorising children as ???security detainees???, saying this did not give carte blanche for them to be held indefinitely. HRW said if there was evidence the children had committed crimes then they should be tried in Iraqi courts, otherwise they should be returned to their families.
Unicef is ???profoundly disturbed??? by reports of children being abused in coalition jails. Alexandra Yuster, Unicef???s senior adviser on child detention, said that under international law children should be detained only as a last resort and only then for the shortest possible time.
They should have access to lawyers and their families, be kept safe, healthy, educated, well-fed and not be subjected to any form of mental or physical punishment, she added. Unicef is now ???desperately??? trying to get more information on the fate of the children currently detained in coalition jails.
A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees ??? some as young as 10 ??? are also being subjected to rape and torture Aug. 2004 By Neil Mackay
It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. ???The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,??? he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. ???Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door ??? and I saw [the soldier???s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.??? Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped ???the little kid???.
In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: ???[I saw] two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and [a US soldier] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young.???
It???s not certain exactly how many children are being held by coalition forces in Iraq, but a Sunday Herald investigation suggests there are up to 107. Their names are not known, nor is where they are being kept, how long they will be held or what has happened to them during their detention.
Proof of the widespread arrest and detention of children in Iraq by US and UK forces is contained in an internal Unicef report written in June. The report has ??? surprisingly ??? not been made public. A key section on child protection, headed ???Children in Conflict with the Law or with Coalition Forces???, reads: ???In July and August 2003, several meetings were conducted with CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) ??? and Ministry of Justice to address issues related to juvenile justice and the situation of children detained by the coalition forces ??? Unicef is working through a variety of channels to try and learn more about conditions for children who are imprisoned or detained, and to ensure that their rights are respected.???
Another section reads: ???Information on the number, age, gender and conditions of incarceration is limited. In Basra and Karbala children arrested for alleged activities targeting the occupying forces are reported to be routinely transferred to an internee facility in Um Qasr. The categorisation of these children as ???internees??? is worrying since it implies indefinite holding without contact with family, expectation of trial or due process.???
The report also states: ???A detention centre for children was established in Baghdad, where according to ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) a significant number of children were detained. Unicef was informed that the coalition forces were planning to transfer all children in adult facilities to this ???specialised??? child detention centre. In July 2003, Unicef requested a visit to the centre but access was denied. Poor security in the area of the detention centre has prevented visits by independent observers like the ICRC since last December.
???The perceived unjust detention of Iraqi males, including youths, for suspected activities against the occupying forces has become one of the leading causes for the mounting frustration among Iraqi youths and the potential for radicalisation of this population group.???
Journalists in Germany have also been investigating the detention and abuse of children in Iraq. One reporter, Thomas Reutter of the TV programme Report Mainz, interviewed a US army sergeant called Samuel Provance, who is banned from speaking about his six months stationed in Abu Ghraib but told Reutter of how one 16-year-old Iraqi boy was arrested.
???He was terribly afraid,??? Provance said. ???He had the skinniest arms I???ve ever seen. He was trembling all over. His wrists were so thin we couldn???t even put handcuffs on him. Right when I saw him for the first time, and took him for interrogation, I felt sorry for him.
???The interrogation specialists poured water over him and put him into a car. Then they drove with him through the night, and at that time it was very, very cold. Then they smeared him with mud and showed him to his father, who was also in custody. They had tried out other interrogation methods on him, but he wasn???t to be brought to talk. The interrogation specialists told me, after the father had seen his son in this state, his heart broke. He wept and promised to tell them everything they wanted to know.???
An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children???s wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.
???I saw a camp for children there,??? he said. ???Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp.??? Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. ???She was beaten,??? said al-Baz. ???I heard her call out, ???They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.??????
He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily ??? this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child???s father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.
Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army. British soldiers tend to arrest children in towns like Basra, which are under UK control, then hand the youngsters over to the Americans who interrogate them and detain them.
Between January and May this year the Red Cross registered a total of 107 juveniles in detention during 19 visits to six coalition prisons. The aid organisation???s Rana Sidani said they had no complete information about the ages of those detained, or how they had been treated. The deteriorating security situation has prevented the Red Cross visiting all detention centres.
Amnesty International is outraged by the detention of children. It is aware of ???numerous human rights violations against Iraqi juveniles, including detentions, torture and ill-treatment, and killings???. Amnesty has interviewed former detainees who say they???ve seen boys as young as 10 in Abu Ghraib.
The organisation???s leaders have called on the coalition governments to give concrete information on how old the children are, how many are detained, why and where they are being held, and in what circumstances they are being detained. They also want to know if the children have been tortured.
Alistair Hodgett, media director of Amnesty International USA, said the coalition forces needed to be ???transparent??? about their policy of child detentions, adding: ???Secrecy is one thing that rings alarm bells.??? Amnesty was given brief access to one jail in Mosul, he said, but has been repeatedly turned away from all others. He pointed out that even countries ???which don???t have good records???, such as Libya, gave Amnesty access to prisons. ???Denying access just fuels the rumour mill,??? he said.
Hodgett added that British and US troops should not be detaining any Iraqis ??? let alone children ??? following the recent handover of power. ???They should all be held by Iraqi authorities,??? he said. ???When the coalition handed over Saddam they should have handed over th
e other 3000 detainees.???
The British Ministry of Defence confirmed UK forces had handed over prisoners to US troops, but a spokes man said he did not know the ages of any detainees given to the Americans.
The MoD also admitted it was currently holding one prisoner aged under 18 at Shaibah prison near Um Qasr. Since the invasion Britain has detained, and later released, 65 under-18s. The MoD claimed the ICRC had access to British jails and detainee lists.
High-placed officials in the Pentagon and Centcom told the Sunday Herald that children as young as 14 were being held by US forces. ???We do have juveniles detained,??? a source said. ???They have been detained as they are deemed to be a threat or because they have acted against the coalition or Iraqis.???
Officially, the Pentagon says it is holding ???around 60 juvenile detainees primarily aged 16 and 17???, although when it was pointed out that the Red Cross estimate is substantially higher, a source admitted ???numbers may have gone up, we might have detained more kids???.
Officials would not comment about children under the age of 16 being held prisoner. Sources said: ??????It???s a real challenge ascertaining their ages. Unlike the UK or the US, they don???t have IDs or birth certificates.??? The Sunday Herald has been told, however, that at least five children aged under 16 are being kept at Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca.
A highly placed source in the Pentagon said: ???We have done investigations into accusations of juveniles being abused and raped and can???t find anything that resembles that.???
The Pentagon???s official policy is to segregate juvenile prisoners from the rest of the prison population, and allow young inmates to join family members also being detained. ???Our main concern is that they are not abused or harassed by older detainees. We know they need special treatment,??? an official said.
Pentagon sources said they were unaware how long child prisoners were kept in jail but said their cases were reviewed every 90 days. The last review was early last month. The sources confirmed the children had been questioned and interrogated when initially detained, but could not say whether this was ???an adult-style interrogation???.
The Norwegian government, which is part of the ???coalition of the willing???, has already said it will tell the US that the alleged torture of children is intolerable. Odd Jostein S??ter, parliamentary secretary at the Norwegian prime minister???s office, said: ???Such assaults are unacceptable. It is against international laws and it is also unacceptable from a moral point of view. This is why we react strongly ??? We are addressing this in a very severe and direct way and present concrete demands. This is damaging the struggle for democracy and human rights in Iraq.???
In Denmark, which is also in the coalition, Save the Children called on its government to tell the occupying forces to order the immediate release of child detainees. Neals Hurdal, head of the Danish Save the Children, said the y had heard rumours of children in Basra being maltreated in custody since May.
Human Rights Watch (HRW) said it was ???extremely disturbed??? that the coalition was holding children for long periods in jails notorious for torture. HRW also criticised the policy of categorising children as ???security detainees???, saying this did not give carte blanche for them to be held indefinitely. HRW said if there was evidence the children had committed crimes then they should be tried in Iraqi courts, otherwise they should be returned to their families.
Unicef is ???profoundly disturbed??? by reports of children being abused in coalition jails. Alexandra Yuster, Unicef???s senior adviser on child detention, said that under international law children should be detained only as a last resort and only then for the shortest possible time.
They should have access to lawyers and their families, be kept safe, healthy, educated, well-fed and not be subjected to any form of mental or physical punishment, she added. Unicef is now ???desperately??? trying to get more information on the fate of the children currently detained in coalition jails.
If a U.S. soldier raped a child or an adult prisoner they should be killed on the spot.
I also don't think children under 16 should be in prison.
That being said, I don't believe everything I read.
That being said, I don't believe everything I read.
And you shouldn't. I don't know anything about that other than it's a news source from Scotland. I didn't have time to investigate their credentials as I found that article while searching for that OReilly pic.
BUT, I'm sure there is some truth to that. What level? Who knows, but if the video that started this thread is any indication, I'm sure something like that is indeed going on.
There is no justification for beating someone you already have subdued and in custody. Yes I can understand the pressure of the situation, but that is not justification.
If a prisoner acts violently, throws urine and feces at the guards, starts fires in their cell, spits AIDS infected saliva, etc., they are gonna get beat or put in solitary(which some will tell you is worse)
Don't you realize that this happens in U.S. prisons on a daily basis.
If a prisoner doesn't follow the rules and behave in the manner that the prison requires/demands I'm all for beating the crap out of them....and if they do it again, beat them again....eventually they will behave or die.
Why is it that the only ones that should be held accountable for their actions are the ones on the side of the law??
We give these war prisoners 3 meals a day, a Koran and a clean cell and they chop our citizens heads off.
Why don't we ask everyone of these prisoners...."Do you want to be treated the way America treats you or do you want to be treated the way American prisoners are treated by your side". They will BEG for beatings and dog collars.
Sure beating prisoners is wrong....sure it sucks....but get real people, this is a WAR and we're dealing with an opponent who won't follow ANY rules.
Who here is going to partcipate in a fight where you have to follow strict rules and your opponent can do anything they want???
1. Obviously if the person is spitting, throwing feces etc., they are not SUBDUED. Please refer to my favorite SS term: R.I.F.
2. In regards to that video, it is PLAIN to see that any possible violent situation that had happened to warrant those in handcuffs and being beaten was over, and those (I hope) that were responsible are contained. At that point, its off to our clean 3-meal-a-day prison. Where does getting a healthy beating while in custody fit in?
3. The whole idea of beating ideas into people has proven over and over and over to NOT work. If it did work then why are some of the most socially inept people in society growing up being beaten as children not the leaders of today? Going into a prison situation is a different matter, and would require a whole seperate thread to go into the intricacies involved within in the prison systems and even further looking at the rampant problems with in our prison-industrial-complex. lets keep it to the Video at hand.
4. I don't think anyone is condoning the violence that landed the people in handcuffs. However again, the people doing the arresting SHOULD or NEED to be above the petty retribution that was caught on camera. If a guy steals a car is caught and handcuffed and then beaten and all of it is caught on tape, the cop that beat the criminal in custody will face consequences.
One of the problems with your stance is that you are not accounting for human behavior. If you give one guy a pass for beating a kid in custody for throwing rocks, then the next guy might assume well once I have them in custody I can beat em if I want. As sad as that is to think, it will and does happen.
And again it is not that I don't understand why this happened, because I do. Its more that I expect more from a country who's goal over there is "Liberty, democracy, and a free Iraq"... if you believe that.
If a U.S. soldier raped a child or an adult prisoner they should be killed on the spot.
Rock, can you give us a list of crimes you believe should carry the death-penalty-without-a-trial? You seem to have a wide swath in passing out this sentence.
If a U.S. soldier raped a child or an adult prisoner they should be killed on the spot.
Rock, can you give us a list of crimes you believe should carry the death-penalty-without-a-trial? You seem to have a wide swath in passing out this sentence.
Child rape Child molestation Murder Rape under certain circumstances
If it's on video and there is no question of guilt......instant execution
[1. Obviously if the person is spitting, throwing feces etc., they are not SUBDUED. Please refer to my favorite SS term: R.I.F.
2. In regards to that video, it is PLAIN to see that any possible violent situation that had happened to warrant those in handcuffs and being beaten was over, and those (I hope) that were responsible are contained. At that point, its off to our clean 3-meal-a-day prison. Where does getting a healthy beating while in custody fit in?
3. The whole idea of beating ideas into people has proven over and over and over to NOT work. If it did work then why are some of the most socially inept people in society growing up being beaten as children not the leaders of today? Going into a prison situation is a different matter, and would require a whole seperate thread to go into the intricacies involved within in the prison systems and even further looking at the rampant problems with in our prison-industrial-complex. lets keep it to the Video at hand.
4. I don't think anyone is condoning the violence that landed the people in handcuffs. However again, the people doing the arresting SHOULD or NEED to be above the petty retribution that was caught on camera. If a guy steals a car is caught and handcuffed and then beaten and all of it is caught on tape, the cop that beat the criminal in custody will face consequences.
One of the problems with your stance is that you are not accounting for human behavior. If you give one guy a pass for beating a kid in custody for throwing rocks, then the next guy might assume well once I have them in custody I can beat em if I want. As sad as that is to think, it will and does happen.
And again it is not that I don't understand why this happened, because I do. Its more that I expect more from a country who's goal over there is Liberty, democracy, and a free Iraq... if you believe that.
1 & 2)...there is a thin line between the time when someone is about to be subdued, in the process of being subdued and actually subdued. None of us knows what happened the hours/minutes/seconds before this video began and I'm not going to make believe I do...they may have deserved the beating, they may not have. Just judging the video on it's own without knowing what went on prior is wrong. Just as it was wrong for me to assume I knew what happened at the Austin incident just based on statements like " The way Ayers beat the piss out of that jackass and then with Cosmo running full stride to jump in..."
3) I don't think you can beat any intellectual ideas into people....but it works pretty well as discipline to those who deserve it....just ask Ayers & Cosmo.
4) These are NOT civilians with civil rights....they are enemy combatants in a WAR. People seem to forget what a WAR is....or they think that we are now more civil and educated than then those who fought WARS for the last 2,000 years. We're not....human nature is the same in 2006 as it was in 1006....no matter how intellectual and civil you think we are/should be.
I am considering human behavior....and my stance is that human nature is to fight fire with fire......and the folks who are cutting off heads are HUMANS too.
So you would say your stance on matters of criminal justice lean more towards those of radical Islamist nations than traditional Western cultures?
Ummm....since the only folks who I suggested be killed were American soldiers I'd say no. (If a U.S. soldier raped a child or an adult prisoner they should be killed on the spot.)
This country, for one reason or another, has become a cespool of child abusers, molesters and rapists. A day doesn't go by when we don't hear about these types of atrocities.
And what many of you may not realize is that these crimes are part of a perverted Pyramid Scheme. If there were 100 child molesters in 1960, and they each molested 100 kids, and 10 years later 50 of those 100 kids molest 100 more the numbers become mind boggling over a 50 year period.
I don't want to live with this type of scum....in my opinion they give up the right to live when they perform such acts, whether it be a Catholic, Jew or Muslim. I'm more concerned with stopping these people than anything that goes on in Islamic nations.
So, when you continuously refer to WAR in all-caps within these posts, what exactly are you refering to? The conflict in Iraq, or the broader, undefined "WAR on terrorism?"
So, when you continuously refer to WAR in all-caps within these posts, what exactly are you refering to? The conflict in Iraq, or the broader, undefined "WAR on terrorism?"
I'm not gonna sit here and be grilled by you over every word I use and in what context it's being used. If you can't figure out where I stand on the issue by now I'm not gonna be able to help.
Please stop this post. I was disgusted by the video so I posted it, not realizing a can of worms would open. If you say stuff, base it in fact, not in the "truthiness" it contains. Look at the graph, violent crime is down, the COVERAGE and media attention to detail of said violent crimes due to the glut of news organizations, outlets and channels has gone up.
I'm not gonna sit here and be grilled by you over every word I use and in what context it's being used. If you can't figure out where I stand on the issue by now I'm not gonna be able to help.
I'm not gonna sit here and be grilled by you over every word I use and in what context it's being used. If you can't figure out where I stand on the issue by now I'm not gonna be able to help.
What a fucking cop out.
The people being beat in the video were prisoners of WAR...what politically correct term would you like to call them??
I'm wary of enterting into this debate because a lot of it seems pretty senseless, but I'd like to point out a couple things.
The British are working in Southern Iraq in Shiite areas. They are not fighting Sunni insurgents on a daily basis. The British do not go on counterinsurgency operations. They do not get shot at regularly. They do not face IED bombs. There have been over 2300 American soldiers killed since the invasion compared to only 103 Brits. Many of those British troops were killed during the Shiite uprising of M. Sadr a while ago. What the British are facing is an increasingly restless Shiite population that wants to exert their political power, but that is highly fractured amongst various religious leaders. This is a very different situation than the one facing American troops in central Iraq where the Sunnis live. Not only that but British troops have extensive training in civilian-military relations. This is part of standard British military training because of Northern Ireland. The British have been commended for their general ability to get along with the Iraqis in their areas as compared to American troops that have no training in dealing with civilian populations until very very recently.
As has been already stated, the British soldiers beat these kids after a demonstration by Shiites where rocks were thrown at British troops in 2004. Since then there has been an official investigation of the incident and the English Ministry of Defense condemned the beatings in an official statement. The British government and military don't seem to take the stance that this is all part of war.
From what I've read, the kids were NOT prisoners of war. They were not insurgents captured firing on British troops or planting bombs. They were kids arrested during a series of Shiite protests in 2004.
Please stop this post. I was disgusted by the video so I posted it, not realizing a can of worms would open. If you say stuff, base it in fact, not in the "truthiness" it contains. Look at the graph, violent crime is down, the COVERAGE and media attention to detail of said violent crimes due to the glut of news organizations, outlets and channels has gone up.
I think you posted it thinking that everyone would be just as disgusted as you and there would be a big "Don't these soldiers suck" party. There are two sides to every story.....even a two year old story. Now that it hasn't accomplished what you thought/hoped it would you want it to end??
As far as violent crime being down, do you think people are just behaving better, our economy is so good folks no longer need to commit crimes, or the Police State is effective??
Don't you agree that the advent of personal video recorders has changed and will continue to change how wars will be fought. And what was done and accepted as part of fighting a war in the past is now scrutinized by the masses and condemned due to seeing it first hand??
I didn't post this for commiseration. I posted this for a healthy discussion of what is going on in Iraq. A lot of the discussion here has been rooted in misinformation, gut reaction and political leanings.
Is this what I envision my grandfather doing to a Japanese "POW" (even though these kids[/b] are not POWs) during WWII? No.
This is abuse of authority. They took dudes behind a wall before they started beating them down. Would they do that outside the wall? Probably not. What bothers me about the video is taking kids somewhere else to beat them, the soccer hooligan cheering them on, and the beating they received after being taken into custody.[/b] No one should act like this, not the military, the police, nobody. You beat dudes to take them into custody? Fine. Beat them after apprehended? No.
I keep hearing that song by Melvin Van Peebles, This is America, isn't it?
Violent crime is down possibly due to: -Technology -Police technique in apprehension of criminals -Education offering more opportunities for individuals to better themselves -Police allowed more leeway via the Patriot Act to search with less probable cause than previously required.
I didn't post this for commiseration. I posted this for a healthy discussion of what is going on in Iraq. A lot of the discussion here has been rooted in misinformation, gut reaction and political leanings.
Is this what I envision my grandfather doing to a Japanese "POW" (even though these kids[/b] are not POWs) during WWII? No.
This is abuse of authority. They took dudes behind a wall before they started beating them down. Would they do that outside the wall? Probably not. What bothers me about the video is taking kids somewhere else to beat them, the soccer hooligan cheering them on, and the beating they received after being taken into custody.[/b] No one should act like this, not the miliatry, police, vigilantes, nobody. You beat dudes to take them into custody? Fine. Beat them after apprehended? No.
I keep hearing that song by Melvin Van Peebles, This is America, isn't it?
Violent crime is down possibly due to: -Technology -Police technique in apprehension of criminals -Education offering more opportunities for individuals to better themselves
Comments
Rock--would you like to know the FACTS behind the Austin incident? Because what you're presenting is a very distorted version of the facts.
FACTS:
Two guys (Ayres and Cosmo) were on the sidewalk minding their own business when two couples walked up. One of the guys pushed Ayres face. Ayres said something, then the dude ran over to fight him. In SELF-DEFENSE, Ayres kicked his ass. Or punched him in the dick, depending on who you ask.
The first guy's friend came over to join in, at which point he was struck by Cosmo. Not a 2 on 1 situation, as you state. Nor did A & C initiate violence. And it doesn't sound the least bit like a crime to me.
Oh, and it was two DJs--no rappers involved at all.
Was there a crime committed??
Did the people here ask to see the video of someone getting beat??
Was there some bragging going on about beating someone regardless of who started it??
Those were my main contentions....
however,
Since the video was never posted, and the story was never told as above I could only assume what happened....if it was as you state above then my assumptions/details were incorrect. And I apologize if I misrepresented what happened and insulted someone while doing so.
Rush Limbaugh Lite.......even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I need crack, You got crack???
Here's some reading for you:
Iraq's Child Prisoners[/b]
A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees ??? some as young as 10 ??? are also being subjected to rape and torture
Aug. 2004
By Neil Mackay
It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. ???The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,??? he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. ???Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door ??? and I saw [the soldier???s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.??? Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped ???the little kid???.
In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: ???[I saw] two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and [a US soldier] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young.???
It???s not certain exactly how many children are being held by coalition forces in Iraq, but a Sunday Herald investigation suggests there are up to 107. Their names are not known, nor is where they are being kept, how long they will be held or what has happened to them during their detention.
Proof of the widespread arrest and detention of children in Iraq by US and UK forces is contained in an internal Unicef report written in June. The report has ??? surprisingly ??? not been made public. A key section on child protection, headed ???Children in Conflict with the Law or with Coalition Forces???, reads: ???In July and August 2003, several meetings were conducted with CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) ??? and Ministry of Justice to address issues related to juvenile justice and the situation of children detained by the coalition forces ??? Unicef is working through a variety of channels to try and learn more about conditions for children who are imprisoned or detained, and to ensure that their rights are respected.???
Another section reads: ???Information on the number, age, gender and conditions of incarceration is limited. In Basra and Karbala children arrested for alleged activities targeting the occupying forces are reported to be routinely transferred to an internee facility in Um Qasr. The categorisation of these children as ???internees??? is worrying since it implies indefinite holding without contact with family, expectation of trial or due process.???
The report also states: ???A detention centre for children was established in Baghdad, where according to ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) a significant number of children were detained. Unicef was informed that the coalition forces were planning to transfer all children in adult facilities to this ???specialised??? child detention centre. In July 2003, Unicef requested a visit to the centre but access was denied. Poor security in the area of the detention centre has prevented visits by independent observers like the ICRC since last December.
???The perceived unjust detention of Iraqi males, including youths, for suspected activities against the occupying forces has become one of the leading causes for the mounting frustration among Iraqi youths and the potential for radicalisation of this population group.???
Journalists in Germany have also been investigating the detention and abuse of children in Iraq. One reporter, Thomas Reutter of the TV programme Report Mainz, interviewed a US army sergeant called Samuel Provance, who is banned from speaking about his six months stationed in Abu Ghraib but told Reutter of how one 16-year-old Iraqi boy was arrested.
???He was terribly afraid,??? Provance said. ???He had the skinniest arms I???ve ever seen. He was trembling all over. His wrists were so thin we couldn???t even put handcuffs on him. Right when I saw him for the first time, and took him for interrogation, I felt sorry for him.
???The interrogation specialists poured water over him and put him into a car. Then they drove with him through the night, and at that time it was very, very cold. Then they smeared him with mud and showed him to his father, who was also in custody. They had tried out other interrogation methods on him, but he wasn???t to be brought to talk. The interrogation specialists told me, after the father had seen his son in this state, his heart broke. He wept and promised to tell them everything they wanted to know.???
An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children???s wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.
???I saw a camp for children there,??? he said. ???Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp.??? Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. ???She was beaten,??? said al-Baz. ???I heard her call out, ???They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.??????
He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily ??? this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child???s father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.
Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army. British soldiers tend to arrest children in towns like Basra, which are under UK control, then hand the youngsters over to the Americans who interrogate them and detain them.
Between January and May this year the Red Cross registered a total of 107 juveniles in detention during 19 visits to six coalition prisons. The aid organisation???s Rana Sidani said they had no complete information about the ages of those detained, or how they had been treated. The deteriorating security situation has prevented the Red Cross visiting all detention centres.
Amnesty International is outraged by the detention of children. It is aware of ???numerous human rights violations against Iraqi juveniles, including detentions, torture and ill-treatment, and killings???. Amnesty has interviewed former detainees who say they???ve seen boys as young as 10 in Abu Ghraib.
The organisation???s leaders have called on the coalition governments to give concrete information on how old the children are, how many are detained, why and where they are being held, and in what circumstances they are being detained. They also want to know if the children have been tortured.
Alistair Hodgett, media director of Amnesty International USA, said the coalition forces needed to be ???transparent??? about their policy of child detentions, adding: ???Secrecy is one thing that rings alarm bells.??? Amnesty was given brief access to one jail in Mosul, he said, but has been repeatedly turned away from all others. He pointed out that even countries ???which don???t have good records???, such as Libya, gave Amnesty access to prisons. ???Denying access just fuels the rumour mill,??? he said.
Hodgett added that British and US troops should not be detaining any Iraqis ??? let alone children ??? following the recent handover of power. ???They should all be held by Iraqi authorities,??? he said. ???When the coalition handed over Saddam they should have handed over the other 3000 detainees.???
The British Ministry of Defence confirmed UK forces had handed over prisoners to US troops, but a spokes man said he did not know the ages of any detainees given to the Americans.
The MoD also admitted it was currently holding one prisoner aged under 18 at Shaibah prison near Um Qasr. Since the invasion Britain has detained, and later released, 65 under-18s. The MoD claimed the ICRC had access to British jails and detainee lists.
High-placed officials in the Pentagon and Centcom told the Sunday Herald that children as young as 14 were being held by US forces. ???We do have juveniles detained,??? a source said. ???They have been detained as they are deemed to be a threat or because they have acted against the coalition or Iraqis.???
Officially, the Pentagon says it is holding ???around 60 juvenile detainees primarily aged 16 and 17???, although when it was pointed out that the Red Cross estimate is substantially higher, a source admitted ???numbers may have gone up, we might have detained more kids???.
Officials would not comment about children under the age of 16 being held prisoner. Sources said: ??????It???s a real challenge ascertaining their ages. Unlike the UK or the US, they don???t have IDs or birth certificates.??? The Sunday Herald has been told, however, that at least five children aged under 16 are being kept at Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca.
A highly placed source in the Pentagon said: ???We have done investigations into accusations of juveniles being abused and raped and can???t find anything that resembles that.???
The Pentagon???s official policy is to segregate juvenile prisoners from the rest of the prison population, and allow young inmates to join family members also being detained. ???Our main concern is that they are not abused or harassed by older detainees. We know they need special treatment,??? an official said.
Pentagon sources said they were unaware how long child prisoners were kept in jail but said their cases were reviewed every 90 days. The last review was early last month. The sources confirmed the children had been questioned and interrogated when initially detained, but could not say whether this was ???an adult-style interrogation???.
The Norwegian government, which is part of the ???coalition of the willing???, has already said it will tell the US that the alleged torture of children is intolerable. Odd Jostein S??ter, parliamentary secretary at the Norwegian prime minister???s office, said: ???Such assaults are unacceptable. It is against international laws and it is also unacceptable from a moral point of view. This is why we react strongly ??? We are addressing this in a very severe and direct way and present concrete demands. This is damaging the struggle for democracy and human rights in Iraq.???
In Denmark, which is also in the coalition, Save the Children called on its government to tell the occupying forces to order the immediate release of child detainees. Neals Hurdal, head of the Danish Save the Children, said the y had heard rumours of children in Basra being maltreated in custody since May.
Human Rights Watch (HRW) said it was ???extremely disturbed??? that the coalition was holding children for long periods in jails notorious for torture. HRW also criticised the policy of categorising children as ???security detainees???, saying this did not give carte blanche for them to be held indefinitely. HRW said if there was evidence the children had committed crimes then they should be tried in Iraqi courts, otherwise they should be returned to their families.
Unicef is ???profoundly disturbed??? by reports of children being abused in coalition jails. Alexandra Yuster, Unicef???s senior adviser on child detention, said that under international law children should be detained only as a last resort and only then for the shortest possible time.
They should have access to lawyers and their families, be kept safe, healthy, educated, well-fed and not be subjected to any form of mental or physical punishment, she added. Unicef is now ???desperately??? trying to get more information on the fate of the children currently detained in coalition jails.
This is not a constructive post. You want more talk about records? Start it. You don't like political discussions? Avoid them.
If a U.S. soldier raped a child or an adult prisoner they should be killed on the spot.
I also don't think children under 16 should be in prison.
That being said, I don't believe everything I read.
And you shouldn't. I don't know anything about that other than it's a news source from Scotland. I didn't have time to investigate their credentials as I found that article while searching for that OReilly pic.
BUT, I'm sure there is some truth to that. What level? Who knows, but if the video that started this thread is any indication, I'm sure something like that is indeed going on.
1. Obviously if the person is spitting, throwing feces etc., they are not SUBDUED. Please refer to my favorite SS term: R.I.F.
2. In regards to that video, it is PLAIN to see that any possible violent situation that had happened to warrant those in handcuffs and being beaten was over, and those (I hope) that were responsible are contained. At that point, its off to our clean 3-meal-a-day prison. Where does getting a healthy beating while in custody fit in?
3. The whole idea of beating ideas into people has proven over and over and over to NOT work. If it did work then why are some of the most socially inept people in society growing up being beaten as children not the leaders of today? Going into a prison situation is a different matter, and would require a whole seperate thread to go into the intricacies involved within in the prison systems and even further looking at the rampant problems with in our prison-industrial-complex. lets keep it to the Video at hand.
4. I don't think anyone is condoning the violence that landed the people in handcuffs. However again, the people doing the arresting SHOULD or NEED to be above the petty retribution that was caught on camera. If a guy steals a car is caught and handcuffed and then beaten and all of it is caught on tape, the cop that beat the criminal in custody will face consequences.
One of the problems with your stance is that you are not accounting for human behavior. If you give one guy a pass for beating a kid in custody for throwing rocks, then the next guy might assume well once I have them in custody I can beat em if I want. As sad as that is to think, it will and does happen.
And again it is not that I don't understand why this happened, because I do. Its more that I expect more from a country who's goal over there is "Liberty, democracy, and a free Iraq"... if you believe that.
Rock, can you give us a list of crimes you believe should
carry the death-penalty-without-a-trial? You seem to have a wide
swath in passing out this sentence.
Is it safe to say that violence against those that can't defend themselves is wrong?
Child rape
Child molestation
Murder
Rape under certain circumstances
If it's on video and there is no question of guilt......instant execution
justice lean more towards those of radical Islamist
nations than traditional Western cultures?
1 & 2)...there is a thin line between the time when someone is about to be subdued, in the process of being subdued and actually subdued. None of us knows what happened the hours/minutes/seconds before this video began and I'm not going to make believe I do...they may have deserved the beating, they may not have. Just judging the video on it's own without knowing what went on prior is wrong. Just as it was wrong for me to assume I knew what happened at the Austin incident just based on statements like " The way Ayers beat the piss out of that jackass and then with Cosmo running full stride to jump in..."
3) I don't think you can beat any intellectual ideas into people....but it works pretty well as discipline to those who deserve it....just ask Ayers & Cosmo.
4) These are NOT civilians with civil rights....they are enemy combatants in a WAR. People seem to forget what a WAR is....or they think that we are now more civil and educated than then those who fought WARS for the last 2,000 years. We're not....human nature is the same in 2006 as it was in 1006....no matter how intellectual and civil you think we are/should be.
I am considering human behavior....and my stance is that human nature is to fight fire with fire......and the folks who are cutting off heads are HUMANS too.
Ummm....since the only folks who I suggested be killed were American soldiers I'd say no. (If a U.S. soldier raped a child or an adult prisoner they should be killed on the spot.)
This country, for one reason or another, has become a cespool of child abusers, molesters and rapists. A day doesn't go by when we don't hear about these types of atrocities.
And what many of you may not realize is that these crimes are part of a perverted Pyramid Scheme. If there were 100 child molesters in 1960, and they each molested 100 kids, and 10 years later 50 of those 100 kids molest 100 more the numbers become mind boggling over a 50 year period.
I don't want to live with this type of scum....in my opinion they give up the right to live when they perform such acts, whether it be a Catholic, Jew or Muslim. I'm more concerned with stopping these people than anything that goes on in Islamic nations.
And then there's the murder epidemic......
posts, what exactly are you refering to? The conflict in Iraq, or the
broader, undefined "WAR on terrorism?"
You figure it out
I'm not gonna sit here and be grilled by you over every word I use and in what context it's being used. If you can't figure out where I stand on the issue by now I'm not gonna be able to help.
Please stop this post. I was disgusted by the video so I posted it, not realizing a can of worms would open. If you say stuff, base it in fact, not in the "truthiness" it contains. Look at the graph, violent crime is down, the COVERAGE and media attention to detail of said violent crimes due to the glut of news organizations, outlets and channels has gone up.
What a fucking cop out.
The people being beat in the video were prisoners of WAR...what politically correct term would you like to call them??
The British are working in Southern Iraq in Shiite areas. They are not fighting Sunni insurgents on a daily basis. The British do not go on counterinsurgency operations. They do not get shot at regularly. They do not face IED bombs. There have been over 2300 American soldiers killed since the invasion compared to only 103 Brits. Many of those British troops were killed during the Shiite uprising of M. Sadr a while ago. What the British are facing is an increasingly restless Shiite population that wants to exert their political power, but that is highly fractured amongst various religious leaders. This is a very different situation than the one facing American troops in central Iraq where the Sunnis live. Not only that but British troops have extensive training in civilian-military relations. This is part of standard British military training because of Northern Ireland. The British have been commended for their general ability to get along with the Iraqis in their areas as compared to American troops that have no training in dealing with civilian populations until very very recently.
As has been already stated, the British soldiers beat these kids after a demonstration by Shiites where rocks were thrown at British troops in 2004. Since then there has been an official investigation of the incident and the English Ministry of Defense condemned the beatings in an official statement. The British government and military don't seem to take the stance that this is all part of war.
I think you posted it thinking that everyone would be just as disgusted as you and there would be a big "Don't these soldiers suck" party. There are two sides to every story.....even a two year old story. Now that it hasn't accomplished what you thought/hoped it would you want it to end??
As far as violent crime being down, do you think people are just behaving better, our economy is so good folks no longer need to commit crimes, or the Police State is effective??
Is this what I envision my grandfather doing to a Japanese "POW" (even though these kids[/b] are not POWs) during WWII? No.
This is abuse of authority. They took dudes behind a wall before they started beating them down. Would they do that outside the wall? Probably not. What bothers me about the video is taking kids somewhere else to beat them, the soccer hooligan cheering them on, and the beating they received after being taken into custody.[/b] No one should act like this, not the military, the police, nobody. You beat dudes to take them into custody? Fine. Beat them after apprehended? No.
I keep hearing that song by Melvin Van Peebles, This is America, isn't it?
Violent crime is down possibly due to:
-Technology
-Police technique in apprehension of criminals
-Education offering more opportunities for individuals to better themselves
-Police allowed more leeway via the Patriot Act to search with less probable cause than previously required.
Understood