People are punished every day for reaching this "breaking point." Are you denying that these soliers committed a crime? Are you saying that they were morally right in kicking the shit out of someone smaller than them?
People are punished every day for reaching this "breaking point." Are you denying that these soliers committed a crime? Are you saying that they were morally right in kicking the shit out of someone smaller than them?
Did they commit a crime ? I don't think so, considering the posibility that these people could have been armed or violent I think it is justified force. Were they morally right ? I don't know, but in that situation i would probably respond in a similar manner...
I would not overreact in that situation, because i wouldn't ever occupy someones country and put myself in the situation in the first place.
While you may not agree with the reasons they are there, you should be gratefull that some people are prepared to put their lives on the line by joining the military,thus protecting your freedoms and interests. I suspect those that decry the military actions in Afghanistan/Iraq etc would be the first to critisise the government if they failed to take any action at all and another atrocity like 9/11 occured...
well considering the soldiers in iraq are there under false pretenses I think the people who's country has been ruined by this have more of a right to fit back than the occupying forces
I can remember getting beat the fuck up when I threw an egg at a dudes car when I was 14. That said... The dude talking should get his ass beaten down. He sounds really messed and it worries me that people like him are over there.
Soldiers are pretty much pissed on by most people. Be it if they do some evil shit to something brave or upstanding. Take today...
They had that rescue mission and saved those 3 hostages. There was four, but they found the one dude tortured and shot multiple times in the head and dumped in a trash heap. The christian agency that they worked for made no mention of or thanks to the forces involved, but instead took a shot at them.
Did I mention, I really hope that dude talking gets his?
I would not overreact in that situation, because i wouldn't ever occupy someones country and put myself in the situation in the first place.
While you may not agree with the reasons they are there, you should be gratefull that some people are prepared to put their lives on the line by joining the military,thus protecting your freedoms and interests. I suspect those that decry the military actions in Afghanistan/Iraq etc would be the first to critisise the government if they failed to take any action at all and another atrocity like 9/11 occured...
Listen dude. I know exactly what the soldiers go through every day, which is why I have advocated from day one that they not be in that situation. You repeat the standard line about people "putting their lives on the line", but they, more than anyone should be pissed off that they are doing so because of a bunch of office-bound "intellects" pushed their agenda through the White House and into this cluster-fuck we call the Iraq war. I hear all the time about the responsibility these men and women have undertaken used as an excuse for illegal behavior (much like you hear about cops stateside). They took an oath, and their jobs require a certain standard of conduct. I'd like to think that the vast majority of soldiers (and cops) stand by that oath and act accordingly. Excusing their behavior when they participate in bullshit like we saw in that video diminishes their status and whatever moral authority they had to start with. I also think you'll find that a lot of people (myself included) that find fault with Iraq think that the invasion of Afghanistan (in pursuit of Al Quaeda) was justified, yet has also gone horribly wrong.
Read what the US corporate media were saying about Iraq in the early days. They're still talking about how to achieve success when even a retard can see that it's an irreversible catastrophe for all concerned except Halliburton and the arms manufacturers. Pity the nation that believes its own bullshit.
''The US is a giant with the head of an infant.''
Media Advisory
"The Final Word Is Hooray!" Remembering the Iraq War's Pollyanna pundits
3/15/06
Weeks after the invasion of Iraq began, Fox News Channel host Brit Hume delivered a scathing speech critiquing the media's supposedly pessimistic assessment of the Iraq War.
"The majority of the American media who were in a position to comment upon the progress of the war in the early going, and even after that, got it wrong," Hume complained in the April 2003 speech ( Richmond Times Dispatch, 4/25/04). "They didn't get it just a little wrong. They got it completely wrong."
Hume was perhaps correct--but almost entirely in the opposite sense. Days or weeks into the war, commentators and reporters made premature declarations of victory, offered predictions about lasting political effects and called on the critics of the war to apologize. Three years later, the Iraq War grinds on at the cost of at least tens of thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars.
Around the same time as Hume's speech, syndicated columnist Cal Thomas declared (4/16/03): "All of the printed and voiced prophecies should be saved in an archive. When these false prophets again appear, they can be reminded of the error of their previous ways and at least be offered an opportunity to recant and repent. Otherwise, they will return to us in another situation where their expertise will be acknowledged, or taken for granted, but their credibility will be lacking."
Gathered here are some of the most notable media comments from the early days of the Iraq War.
Declaring Victory
"Iraq Is All but Won; Now What?" (Los Angeles Times headline, 4/10/03)
"Now that the combat phase of the war in Iraq is officially over, what begins is a debate throughout the entire U.S. government over America's unrivaled power and how best to use it." (CBS reporter Joie Chen, 5/4/03)
"Congress returns to Washington this week to a world very different from the one members left two weeks ago. The war in Iraq is essentially over and domestic issues are regaining attention." (NPR's Bob Edwards, 4/28/03)
"Tommy Franks and the coalition forces have demonstrated the old axiom that boldness on the battlefield produces swift and relatively bloodless victory. The three-week swing through Iraq has utterly shattered skeptics' complaints." (Fox News Channel's Tony Snow, 4/13/03)
"The only people who think this wasn't a victory are Upper Westside liberals, and a few people here in Washington." (Charles Krauthammer, Inside Washington, WUSA-TV, 4/19/03)
"We had controversial wars that divided the country. This war united the country and brought the military back." (Newsweek's Howard Fineman--MSNBC, 5/7/03)
"We're all neo-cons now." (MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 4/9/03)
"The war was the hard part. The hard part was putting together a coalition, getting 300,000 troops over there and all their equipment and winning. And it gets easier. I mean, setting up a democracy is hard, but it is not as hard as winning a war." (Fox News Channel's Fred Barnes, 4/10/03)
"Oh, it was breathtaking. I mean I was almost starting to think that we had become inured to everything that we'd seen of this war over the past three weeks; all this sort of saturation. And finally, when we saw that it was such a just true, genuine expression. It was reminiscent, I think, of the fall of the Berlin Wall. And just sort of that pure emotional expression, not choreographed, not stage-managed, the way so many things these days seem to be. Really breathtaking." (Washington Post reporter Ceci Connolly, appearing on Fox News Channel on 4/9/03, discussing the pulling down of a Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad, an event later revealed to have been a U.S. military PSYOPS operation--Los Angeles Times, 7/3/04)
Mission Accomplished?
"The war winds down, politics heats up.... Picture perfect. Part Spider-Man, part Tom Cruise, part Ronald Reagan. The president seizes the moment on an aircraft carrier in the Pacific." ( PBS's Gwen Ifill, 5/2/03, on George W. Bush's "Mission Accomplished" speech)
"We're proud of our president. Americans love having a guy as president, a guy who has a little swagger, who's physical, who's not a complicated guy like Clinton or even like Dukakis or Mondale, all those guys, McGovern. They want a guy who's president. Women like a guy who's president. Check it out. The women like this war. I think we like having a hero as our president. It's simple. We're not like the Brits." (MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 5/1/03)
"He looked like an alternatively commander in chief, rock star, movie star, and one of the guys." ( CNN's Lou Dobbs, on Bush's 'Mission Accomplished' speech, 5/1/03)
Neutralizing the Opposition
"Why don't the damn Democrats give the president his day? He won today. He did well today." (MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 4/9/03)
"What's he going to talk about a year from now, the fact that the war went too well and it's over? I mean, don't these things sort of lose their--Isn't there a fresh date on some of these debate points?" (MSNBC's Chris Matthews, speaking about Howard Dean--4/9/03)
"If image is everything, how can the Democratic presidential hopefuls compete with a president fresh from a war victory?" (CNN's Judy Woodruff, 5/5/03)
"It is amazing how thorough the victory in Iraq really was in the broadest context..... And the silence, I think, is that it's clear that nobody can do anything about it. There isn't anybody who can stop him. The Democrats can't oppose--cannot oppose him politically." (Washington Post reporter Jeff Birnbaum-- Fox News Channel, 5/2/03)
Nagging the "Naysayers"
"Now that the war in Iraq is all but over, should the people in Hollywood who opposed the president admit they were wrong?" ( Fox News Channel's Alan Colmes, 4/25/03)
"I doubt that the journalists at the New York Times and NPR or at ABC or at CNN are going to ever admit just how wrong their negative pronouncements were over the past four weeks." (MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 4/9/03)
"I'm waiting to hear the words 'I was wrong' from some of the world's most elite journalists, politicians and Hollywood types.... I just wonder, who's going to be the first elitist to show the character to say: 'Hey, America, guess what? I was wrong'? Maybe the White House will get an apology, first, from the New York Times' Maureen Dowd. Now, Ms. Dowd mocked the morality of this war....
"Do you all remember Scott Ritter, you know, the former chief U.N. weapons inspector who played chief stooge for Saddam Hussein? Well, Mr. Ritter actually told a French radio network that -- quote, 'The United States is going to leave Baghdad with its tail between its legs, defeated.' Sorry, Scott. I think you've been chasing the wrong tail, again.
"Maybe disgraced commentators and politicians alike, like Daschle, Jimmy Carter, Dennis Kucinich, and all those others, will step forward tonight and show the content of their character by simply admitting what we know already: that their wartime predictions were arrogant, they were misguided and they were dead wrong. Maybe, just maybe, these self-anointed critics will learn from their mistakes. But I doubt it. After all, we don't call them 'elitists' for nothing." (MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 4/10/03)
"Over the next couple of weeks when we find the chemical weapons this guy was amassing, the fact that this war was attacked by the left and so the right was so vindicated, I think, really means that the left is going to have to hang its head for three or four more years." (Fox News Channel's Dick Morris, 4/9/03)
"This has been a tough war for commentators on the American left. To hope for defeat meant cheering for Saddam Hussein. To hope for victory meant cheering for President Bush. The toppling of Mr. Hussein, or at least a statue of him, has made their arguments even harder to defend. Liberal writers for ideologically driven magazines like The Nation and for less overtly political ones like The New Yorker did not predict a defeat, but the terrible consequences many warned of have not happened. Now liberal commentators must address the victory at hand and confront an ascendant conservative juggernaut that asserts United States might can set the world right." (New York Times reporter David Carr, 4/16/03)
"Well, the hot story of the week is victory.... The Tommy Franks-Don Rumsfeld battle plan, war plan, worked brilliantly, a three-week war with mercifully few American deaths or Iraqi civilian deaths.... There is a lot of work yet to do, but all the naysayers have been humiliated so far.... The final word on this is, hooray." (Fox News Channel's Morton Kondracke, 4/12/03)
"Some journalists, in my judgment, just can't stand success, especially a few liberal columnists and newspapers and a few Arab reporters." (CNN's Lou Dobbs, 4/14/03)
"Sean Penn is at it again. The Hollywood star takes out a full-page ad out in the New York Times bashing George Bush. Apparently he still hasn't figured out we won the war." (MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 5/30/03)
Cakewalk?
"This will be no war -- there will be a fairly brief and ruthless military intervention.... The president will give an order. [The attack] will be rapid, accurate and dazzling.... It will be greeted by the majority of the Iraqi people as an emancipation. And I say, bring it on." (Christopher Hitchens, in a 1/28/03 debate-- cited in the Observer, 3/30/03)
"I will bet you the best dinner in the gaslight district of San Diego that military action will not last more than a week. Are you willing to take that wager?" (Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 1/29/03)
"It won't take weeks. You know that, professor. Our military machine will crush Iraq in a matter of days and there's no question that it will." (Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 2/10/03)
"There's no way. There's absolutely no way. They may bomb for a matter of weeks, try to soften them up as they did in Afghanistan. But once the United States and Britain unleash, it's maybe hours. They're going to fold like that." (Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 2/10/03)
"He [Saddam Hussein] actually thought that he could stop us and win the debate worldwide. But he didn't--he didn't bargain on a two- or three week war. I actually thought it would be less than two weeks." (NBC reporter Fred Francis, Chris Matthews Show, 4/13/03)
Weapons of Mass Destruction
NPR's Mara Liasson: Where there was a debate about whether or not Iraq had these weapons of mass destruction and whether we can find it...
Brit Hume: No, there wasn't. Nobody seriously argued that he didn't have them beforehand. Nobody. (Fox News Channel, April 6, 2003)
"Speaking to the U.N. Security Council last week, Secretary of State Colin Powell made so strong a case that Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein is in material breach of U.N. resolutions that only the duped, the dumb and the desperate could ignore it." (Cal Thomas, syndicated column, 2/12/03)
"Saddam could decide to take Baghdad with him. One Arab intelligence officer interviewed by Newsweek spoke of 'the green mushroom' over Baghdad--the modern-day caliph bidding a grotesque bio-chem farewell to the land of the living alongside thousands of his subjects as well as his enemies. Saddam wants to be remembered. He has the means and the demonic imagination. It is up to U.S. armed forces to stop him before he can achieve notoriety for all time." (Newsweek, 3/17/03)
"Chris, more than anything else, real vindication for the administration. One, credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Two, you know what? There were a lot of terrorists here, really bad guys. I saw them." (MSNBC reporter Bob Arnot, 4/9/03)
"Even in the flush of triumph, doubts will be raised. Where are the supplies of germs and poison gas and plans for nukes to justify pre-emption? (Freed scientists will lead us to caches no inspectors could find.) What about remaining danger from Baathist torturers and war criminals forming pockets of resistance and plotting vengeance? (Their death wish is our command.)" (New York Times' William Safire, 4/10/03)
You are British? So, ur part of that whole "fucking brutal savages" deal? I'm not taking the piss with you. I'm just asking... Cause I live in one of the most suppositively tolerable nations of the world, and some savage shit goes on here to. It's everywhere. No county has it more on lock than anyone else.
All countries on this planet have/had shitty and suspect things going on.
But the Brits usually invented it. Fact! PS I am one.
Invented what? I'm pretty much sure you can come up with anything and it was done way before the brits came around. Unless your talking about soccer hooliganism.
Canadian army in Somalia roasted Somalis as torture by holding them hands and feet over open fires. It happens everywhere. It is inexcusable, especially since it is in essence not combat, it is "The Police" aspect of the "new" Army role in Iraq. After being detained, prisoners, rioters, whatever should not be whomped because you're still angry with them. It's not a good way to win hearts and minds in Iraq.
I have to agree with francis, this paticular bit of footage is so close to what i have seen in the streets on a saturday night and at football matches on too regular a basis. it usualy comes along with the same voice over as people always shout egg ons when it kicks off similar to this guy reveling in the violence.
Its fucking sick shit, I dont care if you are at war, anyone that has this kind disregard for people are Amoeba.
Canadian army in Somalia roasted Somalis as torture by holding them hands and feet over open fires. It happens everywhere. It is inexcusable, especially since it is in essence not combat, it is "The Police" aspect of the "new" Army role in Iraq. After being detained, prisoners, rioters, whatever should not be whomped because you're still angry with them. It's not a good way to win hearts and minds in Iraq.
This is one of the things I was thinking. Be it how the Canadian government has treated Natives, to the Chinese... To many other examples in our history.
Also.. to how the brits act around town??? Shit.. That shit happens everywhere...
When I grew up in our nations capital (Which is the most boring place on the planet) I saw shit happen on the streets of Hull that I saw when I lived in England... Drunks or hooliganism or people acting like fucking savages is everywhere..........
Some kids got involved in a riot and got a beatdown for their troubles. Its no big deal.
This footage does not contain the earlier bit that was shown on the UK news of the soilders being stoned outside of the compound. You can't throw rocks at people then cry when they hit you back...
Uh.. isn't that kind of like saying that if someone resists arrest the cop should be able to beat him down to a bloody pulp or until he's satisfied that the guy got what was coming to him?
You are British? So, ur part of that whole "fucking brutal savages" deal? I'm not taking the piss with you. I'm just asking... Cause I live in one of the most suppositively tolerable nations of the world, and some savage shit goes on here to. It's everywhere. No county has it more on lock than anyone else.
You don't have to be part of something to observe that its true. I've lived here all my life and I promise you, the brits love scrapping and its usually really fucking nasty, as violence always is. I'm sure loads of brutal stuff goes on where you are too, but the video was not much different to scenes I've witnessed outside nightclubs/ in pubs etc many many times. In my experience people over here really go for it, no quarter given, and in plenty of places if you look wrong they'll fight at the drop of a hat, and try to damage you really seriously when they do it. So the video just looks like the cctv footage that gets shown on TV over here to me, or stuff I've seen outside clubs. Not nice, but they're british soldiers - what does anyone expect? kisses and hugs? THey're poorly educated (a significant %age of the british army are illiterate), brutal, war-brutalized people from one of the most historically and culturally brutal nations on earth, and they're really pissed off about being there, and they're shit scared all day. So, amongst other things, they do what the lumpen english like doing - beating the shit out of people.
I'm not tryin' to argue or disagree with you. I just think that everything you said, you could have put in almost all places. You get the same outcome. There are humans in all countries that have/or are doing/ or will do some fucking horrific things to others.
Anyways.. back on topic... Did they ever find out who the dude talking was? Someone needs to beat his ass.
You are British? So, ur part of that whole "fucking brutal savages" deal? I'm not taking the piss with you. I'm just asking... Cause I live in one of the most suppositively tolerable nations of the world, and some savage shit goes on here to. It's everywhere. No county has it more on lock than anyone else.
You don't have to be part of something to observe that its true. I've lived here all my life and I promise you, the brits love scrapping and its usually really fucking nasty, as violence always is. I'm sure loads of brutal stuff goes on where you are too, but the video was not much different to scenes I've witnessed outside nightclubs/ in pubs etc many many times. In my experience people over here really go for it, no quarter given, and in plenty of places if you look wrong they'll fight at the drop of a hat, and try to damage you really seriously when they do it. So the video just looks like the cctv footage that gets shown on TV over here to me, or stuff I've seen outside clubs. Not nice, but they're british soldiers - what does anyone expect? kisses and hugs? THey're poorly educated (a significant %age of the british army are illiterate), brutal, war-brutalized people from one of the most historically and culturally brutal nations on earth, and they're really pissed off about being there, and they're shit scared all day. So, amongst other things, they do what the lumpen english like doing - beating the shit out of people.
I'm not tryin' to argue or disagree with you. I just think that everything you said, you could have put in almost all places. You get the same outcome. There are humans in all countries that have/or are doing/ or will do some fucking horrific to others.
Anyways.. back on topic... Did they ever find out who the dude talking was? Someone needs to beat his ass.
I think you are missing francis' excellent points. The Brits are generally a savage, unenlightened bunch but walk the earth like pompous assholes who invented freedom. Much like the americans.... Factor in the idea that the victors write the history books and you might start coming to the conclusion the answer is in fact the problem.
I think you are missing francis' excellent points. The Brits are generally a savage, unenlightened bunch but walk the earth like pompous assholes who invented freedom. Much like the americans.... Factor in the idea that the victors write the history books and you might start coming to the conclusion the answer is in fact the problem.
I think you are missing francis' excellent points. The Brits are generally a savage, unenlightened bunch but walk the earth like pompous assholes who invented freedom. Much like the americans.... Factor in the idea that the victors write the history books and you might start coming to the conclusion the answer is in fact the problem.
I think you are missing francis' excellent points. The Brits are generally a savage, unenlightened bunch but walk the earth like pompous assholes who invented freedom. Much like the americans.... Factor in the idea that the victors write the history books and you might start coming to the conclusion the answer is in fact the problem.
9 out of 10 on stupid points.
Exhibit A
and when i write my next history book Im going to let everyone know what a misinformed idiot you are. And I'll write it in English.
Earlier this week folks were extolling the fact that a rapper and his buddy beat the crap out of some guy in Austin. WANTED to see video of it and acted as if this was "cool" and garnered some sort of "Street Cred".
Yet when presented with a beating of prisoners/combatants in a FRIGGIN WAR many of you are disgusted.
War sucks...people get killed and beaten. Who knows what those victims had done before the beatings occurred??
Personally I'd rather no one get beaten [/b] but the above shows once again the amazing Soul Strut Double Standard which I still think we need a graemlin for.
NOW.... You REALLY want to hear about something disgusting and inhumane...
There is a citizen in Afganistan who is on trial and facing the Death Penalty for the simple crime of converting to Christianity. According to Islamic Law the penalty for such a "crime" can be death, but they have said if he converts back to Islam his life will be spared.
How's THAT for being a peaceful and tolerant religion.......If the beatings pissed you off, THIS should piss you off even more!!!
Now I'm gonna sit back and wait for someone to pick out one word or one sentence of the above post and try to show how I'm a right wing war mongerer....have at it folks......I need the entertainment!
You are British? So, ur part of that whole "fucking brutal savages" deal? I'm not taking the piss with you. I'm just asking... Cause I live in one of the most suppositively tolerable nations of the world, and some savage shit goes on here to. It's everywhere. No county has it more on lock than anyone else.
You don't have to be part of something to observe that its true. I've lived here all my life and I promise you, the brits love scrapping and its usually really fucking nasty, as violence always is. I'm sure loads of brutal stuff goes on where you are too, but the video was not much different to scenes I've witnessed outside nightclubs/ in pubs etc many many times. In my experience people over here really go for it, no quarter given, and in plenty of places if you look wrong they'll fight at the drop of a hat, and try to damage you really seriously when they do it. So the video just looks like the cctv footage that gets shown on TV over here to me, or stuff I've seen outside clubs. Not nice, but they're british soldiers - what does anyone expect? kisses and hugs? THey're poorly educated (a significant %age of the british army are illiterate), brutal, war-brutalized people from one of the most historically and culturally brutal nations on earth, and they're really pissed off about being there, and they're shit scared all day. So, amongst other things, they do what the lumpen english like doing - beating the shit out of people.
I'm not tryin' to argue or disagree with you. I just think that everything you said, you could have put in almost all places. You get the same outcome. There are humans in all countries that have/or are doing/ or will do some fucking horrific to others.
Anyways.. back on topic... Did they ever find out who the dude talking was? Someone needs to beat his ass.
I think you are missing francis' excellent points. The Brits are generally a savage, unenlightened bunch but walk the earth like pompous assholes who invented freedom. Much like the americans.... Factor in the idea that the victors write the history books and you might start coming to the conclusion the answer is in fact the problem.
Compared to where tho? And I hope your not differentiating between what countries do in other parts of the world to what they do in their own with any examples.
Chinese? Russian? French?
My point is this. The post was made out to sound like the brits are at the top of being "savages". I'm just stating all countries have their shit. No country is more of a savage or less than another. It's all fucking wrong and bad. That is all...
According to Islamic Law the penalty for such a "crime" can be death, but they have said if he converts back to Islam his life will be spared.
This is not "Islamic Law", this is localized stupidity and not interpreting the Qu'ran correctly. The concept of apostate is in all religions. Islam says an apostate should be ostracized, not killed, which is still
Barbarism in times of war should be a last resort, not a go-to method. People shouldn't be hazed like that, or in Full Metal Jacket to create "comraderie". It's 2006, hopefully society has evolved to a more civilized level than that.
Shooting people out of the necessity of war and enjoying it, exploiting it, going overboard, etc. are two different things. That is what I mean by barbarism.
What would you do if I was throwing stones at you ? Walk away ? Ask me polietly to stop ? ... So why is it any different here ???
I agree with Mao. I strongly condemn the narrator's sadism. However, because I don't know what preceded the beating, I'm unwilling to make a judgement based on the footage beyond affirming my general aversion to violence of any kind.
Comments
Its also very easy to pick fault while sitting on the other side of the world in your comfortable home posting on the internet.
Maybe if you had some slight understanding of what the troops go through on a day to day basis, you might be more sympathetic.
Did they commit a crime ? I don't think so, considering the posibility that these people could have been armed or violent I think it is justified force.
Were they morally right ? I don't know, but in that situation i would probably respond in a similar manner...
I've never gone through army/war training, but I have a feeling that it does not involve extensive lessons in patience and passivity,
That said, I am not defending or advocating the actions of the soldiers, just, as they say, sayin'
While you may not agree with the reasons they are there, you should be gratefull that some people are prepared to put their lives on the line by joining the military,thus protecting your freedoms and interests.
I suspect those that decry the military actions in Afghanistan/Iraq etc would be the first to critisise the government if they failed to take any action at all and another atrocity like 9/11 occured...
Soldiers are pretty much pissed on by most people. Be it if they do some evil shit to something brave or upstanding. Take today...
They had that rescue mission and saved those 3 hostages. There was four, but they found the one dude tortured and shot multiple times in the head and dumped in a trash heap. The christian agency that they worked for made no mention of or thanks to the forces involved, but instead took a shot at them.
Did I mention, I really hope that dude talking gets his?
*sigh*
Listen dude. I know exactly what the soldiers go through every day, which is why I have advocated from day one that they not be in that situation. You repeat the standard line about people "putting their lives on the line", but they, more than anyone should be pissed off that they are doing so because of a bunch of office-bound "intellects" pushed their agenda through the White House and into this cluster-fuck we call the Iraq war.
I hear all the time about the responsibility these men and women have undertaken used as an excuse for illegal behavior (much like you hear about cops stateside). They took an oath, and their jobs require a certain standard of conduct. I'd like to think that the vast majority of soldiers (and cops) stand by that oath and act accordingly. Excusing their behavior when they participate in bullshit like we saw in that video diminishes their status and whatever moral authority they had to start with.
I also think you'll find that a lot of people (myself included) that find fault with Iraq think that the invasion of Afghanistan (in pursuit of Al Quaeda) was justified, yet has also gone horribly wrong.
''The US is a giant with the head of an infant.''
Media Advisory
"The Final Word Is Hooray!"
Remembering the Iraq War's Pollyanna pundits
3/15/06
Weeks after the invasion of Iraq began, Fox News Channel host Brit Hume delivered a scathing speech critiquing the media's supposedly pessimistic assessment of the Iraq War.
"The majority of the American media who were in a position to comment upon the progress of the war in the early going, and even after that, got it wrong," Hume complained in the April 2003 speech ( Richmond Times Dispatch, 4/25/04). "They didn't get it just a little wrong. They got it completely wrong."
Hume was perhaps correct--but almost entirely in the opposite sense. Days or weeks into the war, commentators and reporters made premature declarations of victory, offered predictions about lasting political effects and called on the critics of the war to apologize. Three years later, the Iraq War grinds on at the cost of at least tens of thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars.
Around the same time as Hume's speech, syndicated columnist Cal Thomas declared (4/16/03): "All of the printed and voiced prophecies should be saved in an archive. When these false prophets again appear, they can be reminded of the error of their previous ways and at least be offered an opportunity to recant and repent. Otherwise, they will return to us in another situation where their expertise will be acknowledged, or taken for granted, but their credibility will be lacking."
Gathered here are some of the most notable media comments from the early days of the Iraq War.
Declaring Victory
"Iraq Is All but Won; Now What?"
(Los Angeles Times headline, 4/10/03)
"Now that the combat phase of the war in Iraq is officially over, what begins is a debate throughout the entire U.S. government over America's unrivaled power and how best to use it."
(CBS reporter Joie Chen, 5/4/03)
"Congress returns to Washington this week to a world very different from the one members left two weeks ago. The war in Iraq is essentially over and domestic issues are regaining attention."
(NPR's Bob Edwards, 4/28/03)
"Tommy Franks and the coalition forces have demonstrated the old axiom that boldness on the battlefield produces swift and relatively bloodless victory. The three-week swing through Iraq has utterly shattered skeptics' complaints."
(Fox News Channel's Tony Snow, 4/13/03)
"The only people who think this wasn't a victory are Upper Westside liberals, and a few people here in Washington."
(Charles Krauthammer, Inside Washington, WUSA-TV, 4/19/03)
"We had controversial wars that divided the country. This war united the country and brought the military back."
(Newsweek's Howard Fineman--MSNBC, 5/7/03)
"We're all neo-cons now."
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 4/9/03)
"The war was the hard part. The hard part was putting together a coalition, getting 300,000 troops over there and all their equipment and winning. And it gets easier. I mean, setting up a democracy is hard, but it is not as hard as winning a war."
(Fox News Channel's Fred Barnes, 4/10/03)
"Oh, it was breathtaking. I mean I was almost starting to think that we had become inured to everything that we'd seen of this war over the past three weeks; all this sort of saturation. And finally, when we saw that it was such a just true, genuine expression. It was reminiscent, I think, of the fall of the Berlin Wall. And just sort of that pure emotional expression, not choreographed, not stage-managed, the way so many things these days seem to be. Really breathtaking."
(Washington Post reporter Ceci Connolly, appearing on Fox News Channel on 4/9/03, discussing the pulling down of a Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad, an event later revealed to have been a U.S. military PSYOPS operation--Los Angeles Times, 7/3/04)
Mission Accomplished?
"The war winds down, politics heats up.... Picture perfect. Part Spider-Man, part Tom Cruise, part Ronald Reagan. The president seizes the moment on an aircraft carrier in the Pacific."
( PBS's Gwen Ifill, 5/2/03, on George W. Bush's "Mission Accomplished" speech)
"We're proud of our president. Americans love having a guy as president, a guy who has a little swagger, who's physical, who's not a complicated guy like Clinton or even like Dukakis or Mondale, all those guys, McGovern. They want a guy who's president. Women like a guy who's president. Check it out. The women like this war. I think we like having a hero as our president. It's simple. We're not like the Brits."
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 5/1/03)
"He looked like an alternatively commander in chief, rock star, movie star, and one of the guys."
( CNN's Lou Dobbs, on Bush's 'Mission Accomplished' speech, 5/1/03)
Neutralizing the Opposition
"Why don't the damn Democrats give the president his day? He won today. He did well today."
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 4/9/03)
"What's he going to talk about a year from now, the fact that the war went too well and it's over? I mean, don't these things sort of lose their--Isn't there a fresh date on some of these debate points?"
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, speaking about Howard Dean--4/9/03)
"If image is everything, how can the Democratic presidential hopefuls compete with a president fresh from a war victory?"
(CNN's Judy Woodruff, 5/5/03)
"It is amazing how thorough the victory in Iraq really was in the broadest context..... And the silence, I think, is that it's clear that nobody can do anything about it. There isn't anybody who can stop him. The Democrats can't oppose--cannot oppose him politically."
(Washington Post reporter Jeff Birnbaum-- Fox News Channel, 5/2/03)
Nagging the "Naysayers"
"Now that the war in Iraq is all but over, should the people in Hollywood who opposed the president admit they were wrong?"
( Fox News Channel's Alan Colmes, 4/25/03)
"I doubt that the journalists at the New York Times and NPR or at ABC or at CNN are going to ever admit just how wrong their negative pronouncements were over the past four weeks."
(MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 4/9/03)
"I'm waiting to hear the words 'I was wrong' from some of the world's most elite journalists, politicians and Hollywood types.... I just wonder, who's going to be the first elitist to show the character to say: 'Hey, America, guess what? I was wrong'? Maybe the White House will get an apology, first, from the New York Times' Maureen Dowd. Now, Ms. Dowd mocked the morality of this war....
"Do you all remember Scott Ritter, you know, the former chief U.N. weapons inspector who played chief stooge for Saddam Hussein? Well, Mr. Ritter actually told a French radio network that -- quote, 'The United States is going to leave Baghdad with its tail between its legs, defeated.' Sorry, Scott. I think you've been chasing the wrong tail, again.
"Maybe disgraced commentators and politicians alike, like Daschle, Jimmy Carter, Dennis Kucinich, and all those others, will step forward tonight and show the content of their character by simply admitting what we know already: that their wartime predictions were arrogant, they were misguided and they were dead wrong. Maybe, just maybe, these self-anointed critics will learn from their mistakes. But I doubt it. After all, we don't call them 'elitists' for nothing."
(MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 4/10/03)
"Over the next couple of weeks when we find the chemical weapons this guy was amassing, the fact that this war was attacked by the left and so the right was so vindicated, I think, really means that the left is going to have to hang its head for three or four more years."
(Fox News Channel's Dick Morris, 4/9/03)
"This has been a tough war for commentators on the American left. To hope for defeat meant cheering for Saddam Hussein. To hope for victory meant cheering for President Bush. The toppling of Mr. Hussein, or at least a statue of him, has made their arguments even harder to defend. Liberal writers for ideologically driven magazines like The Nation and for less overtly political ones like The New Yorker did not predict a defeat, but the terrible consequences many warned of have not happened. Now liberal commentators must address the victory at hand and confront an ascendant conservative juggernaut that asserts United States might can set the world right."
(New York Times reporter David Carr, 4/16/03)
"Well, the hot story of the week is victory.... The Tommy Franks-Don Rumsfeld battle plan, war plan, worked brilliantly, a three-week war with mercifully few American deaths or Iraqi civilian deaths.... There is a lot of work yet to do, but all the naysayers have been humiliated so far.... The final word on this is, hooray."
(Fox News Channel's Morton Kondracke, 4/12/03)
"Some journalists, in my judgment, just can't stand success, especially a few liberal columnists and newspapers and a few Arab reporters."
(CNN's Lou Dobbs, 4/14/03)
"Sean Penn is at it again. The Hollywood star takes out a full-page ad out in the New York Times bashing George Bush. Apparently he still hasn't figured out we won the war."
(MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 5/30/03)
Cakewalk?
"This will be no war -- there will be a fairly brief and ruthless military intervention.... The president will give an order. [The attack] will be rapid, accurate and dazzling.... It will be greeted by the majority of the Iraqi people as an emancipation. And I say, bring it on."
(Christopher Hitchens, in a 1/28/03 debate-- cited in the Observer, 3/30/03)
"I will bet you the best dinner in the gaslight district of San Diego that military action will not last more than a week. Are you willing to take that wager?"
(Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 1/29/03)
"It won't take weeks. You know that, professor. Our military machine will crush Iraq in a matter of days and there's no question that it will."
(Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 2/10/03)
"There's no way. There's absolutely no way. They may bomb for a matter of weeks, try to soften them up as they did in Afghanistan. But once the United States and Britain unleash, it's maybe hours. They're going to fold like that."
(Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 2/10/03)
"He [Saddam Hussein] actually thought that he could stop us and win the debate worldwide. But he didn't--he didn't bargain on a two- or three week war. I actually thought it would be less than two weeks."
(NBC reporter Fred Francis, Chris Matthews Show, 4/13/03)
Weapons of Mass Destruction
NPR's Mara Liasson: Where there was a debate about whether or not Iraq had these weapons of mass destruction and whether we can find it...
Brit Hume: No, there wasn't. Nobody seriously argued that he didn't have them beforehand. Nobody.
(Fox News Channel, April 6, 2003)
"Speaking to the U.N. Security Council last week, Secretary of State Colin Powell made so strong a case that Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein is in material breach of U.N. resolutions that only the duped, the dumb and the desperate could ignore it."
(Cal Thomas, syndicated column, 2/12/03)
"Saddam could decide to take Baghdad with him. One Arab intelligence officer interviewed by Newsweek spoke of 'the green mushroom' over Baghdad--the modern-day caliph bidding a grotesque bio-chem farewell to the land of the living alongside thousands of his subjects as well as his enemies. Saddam wants to be remembered. He has the means and the demonic imagination. It is up to U.S. armed forces to stop him before he can achieve notoriety for all time."
(Newsweek, 3/17/03)
"Chris, more than anything else, real vindication for the administration. One, credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Two, you know what? There were a lot of terrorists here, really bad guys. I saw them."
(MSNBC reporter Bob Arnot, 4/9/03)
"Even in the flush of triumph, doubts will be raised. Where are the supplies of germs and poison gas and plans for nukes to justify pre-emption? (Freed scientists will lead us to caches no inspectors could find.) What about remaining danger from Baathist torturers and war criminals forming pockets of resistance and plotting vengeance? (Their death wish is our command.)"
(New York Times' William Safire, 4/10/03)
All countries on this planet have/had shitty and suspect things going on.
But the Brits usually invented it. Fact! PS I am one.
Invented what? I'm pretty much sure you can come up with anything and it was done way before the brits came around. Unless your talking about soccer hooliganism.
Its fucking sick shit, I dont care if you are at war, anyone that has this kind disregard for people are Amoeba.
This is one of the things I was thinking. Be it how the Canadian government has treated Natives, to the Chinese... To many other examples in our history.
Also.. to how the brits act around town??? Shit.. That shit happens everywhere...
When I grew up in our nations capital (Which is the most boring place on the planet) I saw shit happen on the streets of Hull that I saw when I lived in England... Drunks or hooliganism or people acting like fucking savages is everywhere..........
Uh.. isn't that kind of like saying that if someone resists arrest the cop should be able to beat him down to a bloody pulp or until he's satisfied that the guy got what was coming to him?
I'm not tryin' to argue or disagree with you. I just think that everything you said, you could have put in almost all places. You get the same outcome. There are humans in all countries that have/or are doing/ or will do some fucking horrific things to others.
Anyways.. back on topic... Did they ever find out who the dude talking was? Someone needs to beat his ass.
I think you are missing francis' excellent points. The Brits are generally a savage, unenlightened bunch but walk the earth like pompous assholes who invented freedom. Much like the americans.... Factor in the idea that the victors write the history books and you might start coming to the conclusion the answer is in fact the problem.
9 out of 10 on stupid points.
As I wrote earlier, the guy in question was the commander of the soldiers that are shown beating up these kids.
Exhibit A
and when i write my next history book Im going to let everyone know what a misinformed idiot you are. And I'll write it in English.
Earlier this week folks were extolling the fact that a rapper and his buddy beat the crap out of some guy in Austin. WANTED to see video of it and acted as if this was "cool" and garnered some sort of "Street Cred".
Yet when presented with a beating of prisoners/combatants in a FRIGGIN WAR many of you are disgusted.
War sucks...people get killed and beaten. Who knows what those victims had done before the beatings occurred??
Personally I'd rather no one get beaten [/b] but the above shows once again the amazing Soul Strut Double Standard which I still think we need a graemlin for.
NOW.... You REALLY want to hear about something disgusting and inhumane...
There is a citizen in Afganistan who is on trial and facing the Death Penalty for the simple crime of converting to Christianity. According to Islamic Law the penalty for such a "crime" can be death, but they have said if he converts back to Islam his life will be spared.
How's THAT for being a peaceful and tolerant religion.......If the beatings pissed you off, THIS should piss you off even more!!!
Now I'm gonna sit back and wait for someone to pick out one word or one sentence of the above post and try to show how I'm a right wing war mongerer....have at it folks......I need the entertainment!
Compared to where tho? And I hope your not differentiating between what countries do in other parts of the world to what they do in their own with any examples.
Chinese? Russian? French?
My point is this. The post was made out to sound like the brits are at the top of being "savages". I'm just stating all countries have their shit. No country is more of a savage or less than another. It's all fucking wrong and bad. That is all...
This is not "Islamic Law", this is localized stupidity and not interpreting the Qu'ran correctly. The concept of apostate is in all religions. Islam says an apostate should be ostracized, not killed, which is still
Barber-ism in times of war.