true. I feel faintly suprised anyone finds the video shocking in the least. the violence is fairly mild - no worse than a pub brawl in a small town, and no-one is having their head chopped off - and its being done by british soldiers in a war zone. its hardly the worst thing soldiers have ever done, they do much more horrible shit than that for kicks every day. Didi anyone see the British army hazing video or pics? They were doing the same to their own recruits, who were also naked and bound up with tape, then forced to fight each, while senior men in drag and army boots kicked them in, in one case until the guy was unconscious from being kicked in the mouth. so why the surprised when a few poor kids get a kicking? Its not very nice, and it shouldn't happen, but its what the british army do often tend to do.
Have to agree with you there mate and with what you were saying earlier. I have travelled extensively around europe and find nowhere as mindlessley and indiscriminately violent as the UK. We may have a minor "gun" problem but we definately have a major "Shit kicked out of you for looking at me funny" issue...
My issue is that "if" the people detained were throwing rocks, they should be DETAINED and charged with whatever crime is appropriate (if there is one). however once they are DETAINED and in custody, there is no need for the beating. This is as bad as any in-custody police brutality. At this stage, the military is in a primarily policing role, and should have been trained for this. Which goes into my second issue with the footage, that the military personell involved SHOULD BE TRAINED better.
Yeh yeh, I don't know what they are going through, hwoever I have had plenty of friends that have been over and come back and never did that shit. A few witnessed some horrendous shit, and even stopped some bad situations (that could have escalated), wo why are these guys getting a pass from anyone?
And the diffference between the Austin fight and the footage is that these are trained professionals in the video and in the case of the austin thread it was punch vs. punch, not rocks vs. handcuffs, armor, and batons.
If we are going into these situations with a high and mighty attitude then it's all the more important that we hold ourselves above petty and weak situations like this.
cosign with whoever said "This is why we will never "win" this war."
in the case of the austin thread it was punch vs. punch, not rocks vs. handcuffs, armor, and batons.
Baloney....even though I haven't seen the specific Austin street fight video, I've been witness to plenty of street fights with people getting seriously hurt, being kicked in the head with steel tip boots, heads being slammed on cars or concrete, etc.. I'm betting just about everyone here has seen a fight in their neighborhood that was as bad as, if not worse than the UK video. And I wouldn't think any of those neighborhood or local bar fights were taking place because of a WAR!!!
Personally I'm more outraged by the folks who chop prisoners heads off and then post it on the Internet, not to be shamed, but to brag!!!
in the case of the austin thread it was punch vs. punch, not rocks vs. handcuffs, armor, and batons.
Baloney....even though I haven't seen the specific Austin street fight video, I've been witness to plenty of street fights with people getting seriously hurt, being kicked in the head with steel tip boots, heads being slammed on cars or concrete, etc.. I'm betting just about everyone here has seen a fight in their neighborhood that was as bad as, if not worse than the UK video. And I wouldn't think any of those neighborhood or local bar fights were taking place because of a WAR!!!
Personally I'm more outraged by the folks who chop prisoners heads off and then post it on the Internet, not to be shamed, but to brag!!!
Dude there is a serious[/b] difference between two citizens getting into a brawl and soldiers beating the crap out of someone they have in custody.
in the case of the austin thread it was punch vs. punch, not rocks vs. handcuffs, armor, and batons.
Baloney....even though I haven't seen the specific Austin street fight video, I've been witness to plenty of street fights with people getting seriously hurt, being kicked in the head with steel tip boots, heads being slammed on cars or concrete, etc.. I'm betting just about everyone here has seen a fight in their neighborhood that was as bad as, if not worse than the UK video. And I wouldn't think any of those neighborhood or local bar fights were taking place because of a WAR!!!
Personally I'm more outraged by the folks who chop prisoners heads off and then post it on the Internet, not to be shamed, but to brag!!!
Dude there is a serious[/b] difference between two citizens getting into a brawl and soldiers beating the crap out of someone they have in custody.
Here on SS the difference seems to be one is a crime [/b] that people applaud(and BTW...I understand the Austin brawl was a 2 on 1 situation) and the other is part of a War, where our enemy is chopping prisoners heads clean off, yet the beating of a prisoner, who may or may not have initiated the violence, is considered outrageous.
Did you guys get that the sadist who cheers his comrades is in fact a senior sergeant? The beating doesn't suprise me so much but the fact that they are cheered by a superior is pretty telling. Plus that general got caught because he showed the footage to family and friends at home for laughs... I think the footage is from 2 years ago.
I just wanted to clarify the sharia law Afghanistan situation as it was discussed in my CentralAsian politics class today
The crime of conversion was into one of the interpretations of Sharia law that is still accepted in Afghanistan
Afghanistan has ratified many treaties and declarations in line with Human Rights even its constitution specidfies freedom of religion. However this is a case of conflicting laws.
The fact is the judiciary in afg has some more conservative memebers on in its panel that are advocating for the law to be followed through. Karzai (pres of afg)is probably against this crazy sentencing (we are still awaiting the results..so is karzai) but cannot intervene because he must leave the judiciary independent and autonomous.
They are trying to work out a solution (declare the guy was insane) and waiting out the decision before seeing what they can do
ok im out
as far the soldiers. You are trained to deal with civil frustration and these actions do nothing to help out your situation strategically..morally they should be the bigger man..picking on people 4/1 and cheerleading is never a goodlook. If you say we are blanketing the protesters because of our leftist tendencies how are you guys protecting these soldiers. and especially why? He was right to kick him in the nuts.. come on.
What they did was wrong only if they exceeded the rules of engagement applied to the situation. Its easy to say they are wrong when its not your ass being rained upon with rocks.
What they did was wrong only if they exceeded the rules of engagement applied to the situation. Its easy to say they are wrong when its not your ass being rained upon with rocks.
Im sure they did cross those rules of engagement. Its not an easy situation for them but they did not act correctly. Furthermore this was a tactical error on their part as they contributed indirectly to further enfuriating the population.
rained upon with rocks...houses being bombed parents being shot up
in the case of the austin thread it was punch vs. punch, not rocks vs. handcuffs, armor, and batons.
Baloney....even though I haven't seen the specific Austin street fight video, I've been witness to plenty of street fights with people getting seriously hurt, being kicked in the head with steel tip boots, heads being slammed on cars or concrete, etc.. I'm betting just about everyone here has seen a fight in their neighborhood that was as bad as, if not worse than the UK video. And I wouldn't think any of those neighborhood or local bar fights were taking place because of a WAR!!!
Personally I'm more outraged by the folks who chop prisoners heads off and then post it on the Internet, not to be shamed, but to brag!!!
Dude there is a serious[/b] difference between two citizens getting into a brawl and soldiers beating the crap out of someone they have in custody.
Here on SS the difference seems to be one is a crime [/b] that people applaud(and BTW...I understand the Austin brawl was a 2 on 1 situation) and the other is part of a War, where our enemy is chopping prisoners heads clean off, yet the beating of a prisoner, who may or may not have initiated the violence, is considered outrageous.
Rock Just because our enemies are insane, doesn't give us a pass to act like assholes. Ours is supposed to be the side of freedom, democracy and sanity. One does not demonstrate these values by fucking up prisoners, and then using the lunacy of our enemies as a mitigating factor.
I justify these actions by my understanding that sometimes people react violently to violent situations. Especially when you consider that their life is on the line everyday...
Like I said earlier its easy to sit comfortably on your ass and criticise...
I justify these actions by my understanding that sometimes people react violently to violent situations. Especially when you consider that their life is on the line everyday...
Like I said earlier its easy to sit comfortably on your ass and criticise...
explain not justify
and the officers that condemned their actions are sitting on their ass as well
sometimes people react violently to violent situations. and its wrong
shit is reversible to infinite... people react violently to violent situations=riots
You want sickening? Here's sickening. But its okay because America is run by corporations. Im sure the NYT can find some phony source to refute it.
Insurgent doctor killed dozens of wounded soldiers By Patrick Cockburn in Kirkuk Published: 23 March 2006
When policemen, soldiers and officials in Kirkuk who were injured in insurgent attacks arrived in the emergency room of the hospital, they hoped their chances of surviving had gone up as doctors tended their wounds.
In fact, many of the wounded were almost certain to die because one of the doctors at the Republic Hospital was a member of an insurgent cell. Pretending to treat the injured men, he killed 43 of them by secretly administering lethal injections, a police inquiry has revealed.
"He was called Dr Louay and when the terrorists had failed to kill a policeman or a soldier he would finish them off," Colonel Yadgar Shukir Abdullah Jaff, a senior Kirkuk police chief, told The Independent. "He gave them a high dosage of a medicine which increased their bleeding so they died from loss of blood."
You want sickening? Here's sickening. But its okay because America is run by corporations. Im sure the NYT can find some phony source to refute it.
Insurgent doctor killed dozens of wounded soldiers By Patrick Cockburn in Kirkuk Published: 23 March 2006
When policemen, soldiers and officials in Kirkuk who were injured in insurgent attacks arrived in the emergency room of the hospital, they hoped their chances of surviving had gone up as doctors tended their wounds.
In fact, many of the wounded were almost certain to die because one of the doctors at the Republic Hospital was a member of an insurgent cell. Pretending to treat the injured men, he killed 43 of them by secretly administering lethal injections, a police inquiry has revealed.
"He was called Dr Louay and when the terrorists had failed to kill a policeman or a soldier he would finish them off," Colonel Yadgar Shukir Abdullah Jaff, a senior Kirkuk police chief, told The Independent. "He gave them a high dosage of a medicine which increased their bleeding so they died from loss of blood."
You want sickening? Here's sickening. But its okay because America is run by corporations. Im sure the NYT can find some phony source to refute it.
Insurgent doctor killed dozens of wounded soldiers By Patrick Cockburn in Kirkuk Published: 23 March 2006
When policemen, soldiers and officials in Kirkuk who were injured in insurgent attacks arrived in the emergency room of the hospital, they hoped their chances of surviving had gone up as doctors tended their wounds.
In fact, many of the wounded were almost certain to die because one of the doctors at the Republic Hospital was a member of an insurgent cell. Pretending to treat the injured men, he killed 43 of them by secretly administering lethal injections, a police inquiry has revealed.
"He was called Dr Louay and when the terrorists had failed to kill a policeman or a soldier he would finish them off," Colonel Yadgar Shukir Abdullah Jaff, a senior Kirkuk police chief, told The Independent. "He gave them a high dosage of a medicine which increased their bleeding so they died from loss of blood."
I'd figure the NYT, as part of the 100 percent absolutely, positively hate-the-president, root-for-the-terrorists, aid-and-comfort-to-the-enemies liberal media would want to run stories like this to further its terrorist-coddling agenda. How confusing.
All snarkiness aside, that story is disturbing and sickening.
There is no justification for beating someone you already have subdued and in custody. Yes I can understand the pressure of the situation, but that is not justification.
You want sickening? Here's sickening. But its okay because America is run by corporations. Im sure the NYT can find some phony source to refute it.
Insurgent doctor killed dozens of wounded soldiers By Patrick Cockburn in Kirkuk Published: 23 March 2006
When policemen, soldiers and officials in Kirkuk who were injured in insurgent attacks arrived in the emergency room of the hospital, they hoped their chances of surviving had gone up as doctors tended their wounds.
In fact, many of the wounded were almost certain to die because one of the doctors at the Republic Hospital was a member of an insurgent cell. Pretending to treat the injured men, he killed 43 of them by secretly administering lethal injections, a police inquiry has revealed.
"He was called Dr Louay and when the terrorists had failed to kill a policeman or a soldier he would finish them off," Colonel Yadgar Shukir Abdullah Jaff, a senior Kirkuk police chief, told The Independent. "He gave them a high dosage of a medicine which increased their bleeding so they died from loss of blood."
So you are saying that while we are facing sickos like this we should abandon manner of restraint.
The problem here is that we are on the wrong side of this conflict in Iraq. We invaded a country unprovoked. Wake up. Guerilla warfare can never be won by violent means, only political solutions will ultimately settle this conflict. The insurgency will be put down by Iraqis in a (long--eg.g seven year) civil war at the end of which the country will be divided up amongst the winners.
The Israelis had to swallow this bitter pill in Palestine. The occupied territories cannot be kept militarily forever because the cost is too high. They are fully aware that a two state solution is the ONLY end game strategy. Even Sharon was working to make Palestine a reality through force (building the wall). Ask yourself why we haven't (and won't in a million years) invaded N Korea or Iran. Why? cause there is no winning strategy politically. There is no one to install to get things working our way (just like in Iraq).
Afgahnistan is another good case in point. Warlords control most the country, which we accept in payment for their willingness to keep our enemies under control. You John Wayne talking dudes need to get over the school yard bully fantasy and get with some realness about geo-politics.
There is no justification for beating someone you already have subdued and in custody. Yes I can understand the pressure of the situation, but that is not justification.
If a prisoner acts violently, throws urine and feces at the guards, starts fires in their cell, spits AIDS infected saliva, etc., they are gonna get beat or put in solitary(which some will tell you is worse)
Don't you realize that this happens in U.S. prisons on a daily basis.
If a prisoner doesn't follow the rules and behave in the manner that the prison requires/demands I'm all for beating the crap out of them....and if they do it again, beat them again....eventually they will behave or die.
Why is it that the only ones that should be held accountable for their actions are the ones on the side of the law??
We give these war prisoners 3 meals a day, a Koran and a clean cell and they chop our citizens heads off.
Why don't we ask everyone of these prisoners...."Do you want to be treated the way America treats you or do you want to be treated the way American prisoners are treated by your side". They will BEG for beatings and dog collars.
Sure beating prisoners is wrong....sure it sucks....but get real people, this is a WAR and we're dealing with an opponent who won't follow ANY rules.
Who here is going to partcipate in a fight where you have to follow strict rules and your opponent can do anything they want???
Comments
Have to agree with you there mate and with what you were saying earlier.
I have travelled extensively around europe and find nowhere as mindlessley and indiscriminately violent as the UK.
We may have a minor "gun" problem but we definately have a major "Shit kicked out of you for looking at me funny" issue...
Yeh yeh, I don't know what they are going through, hwoever I have had plenty of friends that have been over and come back and never did that shit. A few witnessed some horrendous shit, and even stopped some bad situations (that could have escalated), wo why are these guys getting a pass from anyone?
And the diffference between the Austin fight and the footage is that these are trained professionals in the video and in the case of the austin thread it was punch vs. punch, not rocks vs. handcuffs, armor, and batons.
If we are going into these situations with a high and mighty attitude then it's all the more important that we hold ourselves above petty and weak situations like this.
cosign with whoever said "This is why we will never "win" this war."
Baloney....even though I haven't seen the specific Austin street fight video, I've been witness to plenty of street fights with people getting seriously hurt, being kicked in the head with steel tip boots, heads being slammed on cars or concrete, etc.. I'm betting just about everyone here has seen a fight in their neighborhood that was as bad as, if not worse than the UK video. And I wouldn't think any of those neighborhood or local bar fights were taking place because of a WAR!!!
Personally I'm more outraged by the folks who chop prisoners heads off and then post it on the Internet, not to be shamed, but to brag!!!
Dude there is a serious[/b] difference between two citizens getting into a brawl and soldiers beating the crap out of someone they have in custody.
Here on SS the difference seems to be one is a crime [/b] that people applaud(and BTW...I understand the Austin brawl was a 2 on 1 situation) and the other is part of a War, where our enemy is chopping prisoners heads clean off, yet the beating of a prisoner, who may or may not have initiated the violence, is considered outrageous.
The crime of conversion was into one of the interpretations of Sharia law that is still accepted in Afghanistan
Afghanistan has ratified many treaties and declarations in line with Human Rights even its constitution specidfies freedom of religion. However this is a case of conflicting laws.
The fact is the judiciary in afg has some more conservative memebers on in its panel that are advocating for the law to be followed through. Karzai (pres of afg)is probably against this crazy sentencing (we are still awaiting the results..so is karzai) but cannot intervene because he must leave the judiciary independent and autonomous.
They are trying to work out a solution (declare the guy was insane) and waiting out the decision before seeing what they can do
ok im out
as far the soldiers. You are trained to deal with civil frustration and these actions do nothing to help out your situation strategically..morally they should be the bigger man..picking on people 4/1 and cheerleading is never a goodlook. If you say we are blanketing the protesters because of our leftist tendencies how are you guys protecting these soldiers. and especially why? He was right to kick him in the nuts.. come on.
And lock him up? Didn't the Russians use to do that? Anyone that didn't go with the flow.. Declare insane and stick them somewhere...
In total agreement with you here...
Not lock him up but declare the trial void. He was insane when commiting the act.
It was super random for this guy to get arrested in the first place (he was allegedly carrying a bible
Not defending anyone here guys
Just get your perception straight. Unfair comparison with no relevant use in this debate.
Video meant to be released to have a lasting/horrifying effect vs secret video leaked to inform population (dont nitpick my description)
I dont understand..you may aprove or not on the war but why left vs right attitude
What the soldiers did was wrong: NO DENYING it.
"Well did you see the SS in WW2 how did they treat prisoner hun!"
What they did was wrong only if they exceeded the rules of engagement applied to the situation.
Its easy to say they are wrong when its not your ass being rained upon with rocks.
Im sure they did cross those rules of engagement. Its not an easy situation for them but they did not act correctly. Furthermore this was a tactical error on their part as they contributed indirectly to further enfuriating the population.
rained upon with rocks...houses being bombed parents being shot up
Its easy to say...
Rock
Just because our enemies are insane, doesn't give us a pass to act like assholes. Ours is supposed to be the side of freedom, democracy and sanity. One does not demonstrate these values by fucking up prisoners, and then using the lunacy of our enemies as a mitigating factor.
Are you sure ? I think you are assuming this fact.
Possibly, but they have been repremeded for their actions so...
Whatever isolated incident. I still wonder how you justify these actions..clearly not self defense. simply a beatdown..
I justify these actions by my understanding that sometimes people react violently to violent situations.
Especially when you consider that their life is on the line everyday...
Like I said earlier its easy to sit comfortably on your ass and criticise...
explain not justify
and the officers that condemned their actions are sitting on their ass as well
sometimes people react violently to violent situations. and its wrong
shit is reversible to infinite...
people react violently to violent situations=riots
lets call it quits
Touche
Insurgent doctor killed dozens of wounded soldiers
By Patrick Cockburn in Kirkuk
Published: 23 March 2006
When policemen, soldiers and officials in Kirkuk who were injured in insurgent attacks arrived in the emergency room of the hospital, they hoped their chances of surviving had gone up as doctors tended their wounds.
In fact, many of the wounded were almost certain to die because one of the doctors at the Republic Hospital was a member of an insurgent cell. Pretending to treat the injured men, he killed 43 of them by secretly administering lethal injections, a police inquiry has revealed.
"He was called Dr Louay and when the terrorists had failed to kill a policeman or a soldier he would finish them off," Colonel Yadgar Shukir Abdullah Jaff, a senior Kirkuk police chief, told The Independent. "He gave them a high dosage of a medicine which increased their bleeding so they died from loss of blood."
This can't be true....I never heard it on NPR
I'd figure the NYT, as part of the 100 percent absolutely, positively hate-the-president, root-for-the-terrorists, aid-and-comfort-to-the-enemies liberal media would want to run stories like this to further its terrorist-coddling agenda. How confusing.
All snarkiness aside, that story is disturbing and sickening.
So you are saying that while we are facing sickos like this we should abandon manner of restraint.
The problem here is that we are on the wrong side of this conflict in Iraq. We invaded a country unprovoked. Wake up. Guerilla warfare can never be won by violent means, only political solutions will ultimately settle this conflict. The insurgency will be put down by Iraqis in a (long--eg.g seven year) civil war at the end of which the country will be divided up amongst the winners.
The Israelis had to swallow this bitter pill in Palestine. The occupied territories cannot be kept militarily forever because the cost is too high. They are fully aware that a two state solution is the ONLY end game strategy. Even Sharon was working to make Palestine a reality through force (building the wall). Ask yourself why we haven't (and won't in a million years) invaded N Korea or Iran. Why? cause there is no winning strategy politically. There is no one to install to get things working our way (just like in Iraq).
Afgahnistan is another good case in point. Warlords control most the country, which we accept in payment for their willingness to keep our enemies under control. You John Wayne talking dudes need to get over the school yard bully fantasy and get with some realness about geo-politics.
If a prisoner acts violently, throws urine and feces at the guards, starts fires in their cell, spits AIDS infected saliva, etc., they are gonna get beat or put in solitary(which some will tell you is worse)
Don't you realize that this happens in U.S. prisons on a daily basis.
If a prisoner doesn't follow the rules and behave in the manner that the prison requires/demands I'm all for beating the crap out of them....and if they do it again, beat them again....eventually they will behave or die.
Why is it that the only ones that should be held accountable for their actions are the ones on the side of the law??
We give these war prisoners 3 meals a day, a Koran and a clean cell and they chop our citizens heads off.
Why don't we ask everyone of these prisoners...."Do you want to be treated the way America treats you or do you want to be treated the way American prisoners are treated by your side". They will BEG for beatings and dog collars.
Sure beating prisoners is wrong....sure it sucks....but get real people, this is a WAR and we're dealing with an opponent who won't follow ANY rules.
Who here is going to partcipate in a fight where you have to follow strict rules and your opponent can do anything they want???
Such as??
"We give these war prisoners 3 meals a day, a Koran and a clean cell and they chop our citizens heads off."
Back to the matter AT HAND though... since we don't know what preceded that video, all of this is worthless speculation.