Yes, I will have my friend tell his relatives in South Carolina that they shouldn't celebrate twice a year their Confederate heritage because a website says that their family stories and photographs are merely lies. Thank you, Yankee, for once again setting us straight on our own history.
PS - as for your previous comment neither was the civil war about fighting racism. Many in the north and west were anti-slavery but still racist against blacks. I don't doubt that you will try to twist this around somehow.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Of course, the war was about slavery. That's not all it was about though. Just like the Confederate flag wasn't only about slavery. But I suppose these subtleties are far too much for y'all's mob mentality to process.
You mean like your previous assertion that it was about state's rights, which was actually only about states' rights to hold slaves?
Also for your comment about the U.S. government and Indian wars, might I remind you that there were at least a dozen if not more Indian wars fought by southern colonists and southern states against the Indians.
Just from the U.S. independence to pre-Civil War period
Chickamauga Wars fought in TN, KY, VA, NC, SC, GA
Creek War in AL
Seminole Wars in FL
Cherokee War in TX
To name a few
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Whatever keeps y'all emotionally and irrationally slamming the South at the same time that you play apologist to the North and the US at large engaging in the exact same or worse transgressions, cool. Be that.
Since it appears that the conversation between Rock, Bon, Harvey, Bob and I is going nowhere,
b/w
pcmr said:
One person's critique or counter-argument should not automatically label them as one camp or another and especially not be considered a pre-emptive blueprint for the rest of their argumentation.
Actually I think this conversation has been pretty good....lots of opinions being shared and in a fairly civilized way.
If by "going nowhere" you mean I haven't agreed that the Civil War was 100% about Slavery and nothing else, or that not everyone wearing a Skynyrd T-Shirt or watchin the Dukes Of Hazzard is an outright bigoted racist, these are minutae in comparison to the fact that I agree with you on the very basic premises being discussed here.
If you want the discussion to "go somewhere" with me, post any specific post or sentence I've posted here and let's discuss how and why it is wrong. Not what you think, imagine or have extrapolated in your own secret mind garden what I "REALLY" mean based on your assumptions that have led you to throw me into the same box as Harvey, or anyone else here.
Yes, I will have my friend tell his relatives in South Carolina that they shouldn't celebrate twice a year their Confederate heritage because a website says that their family stories and photographs are merely lies. Thank you, Yankee, for once again setting us straight on our own history.
I didn't say their stories were lies. But dropping some anecdote about black Confederate soldiers as though it were a common occurrence calls for a response.
By the way, when your friend's relatives celebrate their Confederate heritage do they also look back fondly on their women being raped and kids being sold? Highly unlikely.
And by the way, "Yankee" is one of the very last things I would ever call myself, so fuck that word. I don't recall calling you a "cracker," so keep your ignorant slurs to yourself.
Yes, I will have my friend tell his relatives in South Carolina that they shouldn't celebrate twice a year their Confederate heritage because a website says that their family stories and photographs are merely lies. Thank you, Yankee, for once again setting us straight on our own history.
You don't even know your own history, so you should be thanking people in this thread.
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its conerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." --Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, commenting on the the Declaration of Independence's equality guarantee.
Is this the heritage ya''ll and ya'lls friends celebrate, Billybob?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Bon Vivant said:
HarveyCanal said:
BobDesperado said:
LaserWolf said:
I say we quit engaging Harvey before he tells us how much happier people were when they were slaves.
Yeah. They just sang about Jesus and drank wine all day.
And I can't let his silliness about black soldiers fighting for the Confederacy go unanswered, because it's asinine.
Yes, I will have my friend tell his relatives in South Carolina that they shouldn't celebrate twice a year their Confederate heritage because a website says that their family stories and photographs are merely lies. Thank you, Yankee, for once again setting us straight on our own history.
You don't even know your own history, so you should be thanking people in this thread.
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its conerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." --Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, commenting on the the Declaration of Independence's equality guarantee.
Is this the heritage ya''ll and ya'lls friends celebrate, Billybob?
Such a thing has been outlawed/corrected for ~150 years now...so obviously no, asshole.
You don't even know your own history, so you should be thanking people in this thread.
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its conerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." --Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, commenting on the the Declaration of Independence's equality guarantee.
Is this the heritage ya''ll and ya'lls friends celebrate, Billybob?
Such a thing has been outlawed/corrected for ~150 years now...so obviously no, asshole.
So what exactly are ya'll and ya'lls friends celebrating if ya'll ain't celebrating the "foundations" and "cornerstones" and "great truths" of the Confederacy? The music? Ya'll sit around and talk about Confederate raers?
You can call me an asshole all ya'll want. The fact is you've been apololgizing for, justifying and relativising Confederate slavery this whole thread. That makes you the asshole, not me.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Look, y'all want to pigeonhole people as celebrating slavery when they are instead celebrating culture and independence...yes, black people who celebrate their Confederate relatives as war heroes are of course celebrating slavery, what else? *eye roll*...then geaux right ahead. I'm done with this thread though.
I don't have anything against the South. I don't even care about the Confederate flag.
Your comments however show an ignorance about what exactly was involved with the civil war. You stated that the Civil War was about states' rights and other issues besides slavery, but all of those issues revolved around slavery.
States rights was about the right of the southern states to own slaves. Western expansion was about the right of the south to spread slavery to the new states. Northern industry vs southern agriculture was about slave labor, northern politicians vs southern ones was about maintaining slave rights against what they feared was growing abolitionism and anti-slavery feelings amongst the north, etc.
Saying that the north and government wasn't anti-racist is a red herring. Saying that the U.S. government and flag were killing Indians is irrelevant to the issue, and ignores the fact that the south, like ALL the U.S. states had Indian removal policies and fought wars to kick out the natives.
It's like you're proud of the South, and that's all that matters.
Wasn't it the other way around? With the United States government choosing to intefere with the longstanding laws of states that made up its Union?
That was actually the whole shebang in a nutshell...states rights versus federal mandates.
And as I've mentioned on this site before, Dixie and its flag represented far more than just an endorsement of slavery.
you should have been able to tell because the amount of "y'all"s in his poasts
the real revelation in this thread is that, not only has Harvey never been out of the United States, he's also never been in "The North" - talk about provincial
the real revelation in this thread is that, not only has Harvey never been out of the United States, he's also never been in "The North" - talk about provincial
How is that even possible? I've been to all but two Southern states.
The way I understand it.... The slave owners in the south obviously needed free labor to support their way of life. Cotton and shit produced on that scale wouldn't of been very profitable if you had to pay the millions of people who plowed, planted and picked it. The poor of the south would of been poor regardless if slavery was legal, so the actual soldiers of the civil war were fighting for all kinds of shit besides the right for slave owners to remain slave owners. They happened to live in the geographic area where the Union was shooting people and lighting shit on fire. The south was being singled out for their way of life. "Didn't we just fight the British over the same shit 90-odd years ago?" may have been a thought in a southerner's head at the time. Indeed a culture war...the government was trying to take away the south's right to pursue their way of life.
the south's way of life (agrarian, independent) wasn't the awful thing...it was the means they used to achieve this way of life, slavery: the destruction of humans, families, spirits, thoughts. An immoral, sinister, barbaric and loathsome means on a gargantuan scale. It needed to be stopped. The union stopped it by the way the best way they knew how at the time: they shot guns at it and set shit on fire. They won, and slavery was outlawed. The south lost...the confederate flag rendered as a symbol of losers.
The south somehow managed to eek out their way of life with new names for slavery such as sharecropping, Jim Crow, the Klan, etc.
Fortunately this culture of hate based on the legacy of slavery is slowly but surely shrinking with each dead redneck. I am not naive to think new rednecks aren't being spawned, but less so I imagine.
I was in west central Arkansas today...very deep in redneck territory...towns with only a few hundred people in them, 95% white and I only saw 3 confederate flags. This is VERY different from what I saw 25 years ago in the same area of the country. Even though one may consider just one confederate flag as being too many, attitudes are changing.
what I want to try to say is that while the civil war more than likely meant different things to different Southerners at the time and now in the present...no look back at it in a romantic sense, or a look back admiring the independent spirit, the culture or whatever can supersede the gravity of slavery. Slavery is the big pile of bloody turds on the cake at the "celebrating the confederacy" party. (keep in mind using the term "slavery" to describe what was happening in the south at that time is actually too kind of a word. Southern slavery was a system of dehumanization on a scale that was so horrific that another word should really be invented for it).
While you can still have love for the era/culture for many great reasons, the totality of slavery simply crushes those reasons. No amount of killer Allen Collins and Gary Rossington guitar solos is ever gonna change that. The south lost the civil war and the rednecks that hold on to the legacy with a white knuckle grip are losers celebrating losers. The good things about the south are represented in music, food, literature and the good people of the south, this is the reason I live here...the bad things are represented by the confederacy.
Southern pride isnt necessarily a bad thing becasue of the triumphs of culture it gave the world.
Southern pride has no need for the confederate flag as it ultimately the flag of slavery regardless of a smattering of admirable qualities.
PS. No person has any right to tell someone who is descended from slaves that their interpretation of the confederate flag is "wrong" or "misunderstood". My 2 cents.
Thanks hook. I think that is mostly right and insightful.
While the soldiers of the South were undeniable shooting at those who were shooting at them, the first shoots went from the South to the North.
Sherman's March (also known as setting shit on fire) was a horrible bloody destructive attack on a civilians that could no longer defend themselves.
The military reasoning for such an unforgivable tactic was that unless the Confederacy was utterly defeated they would not accept surrender and take to the hills and continue with guerrilla warfare.
Not unlike the rational behind dropping the atomic bomb (twice) on Japan.
I think your point, that even poor whites, who didn't own slaves, benefited from the slavery is a good one. And rarely acknowledged.
While I suppose all wars are about independence, beyond the slavery issue, independence was not really the issue. But then, after the war, with reconstruction, there is no doubt that Southerners, especially white southerners, felt their independence was being threatened, as they were basically under federal rule.
Sherman's March (also known as setting shit on fire) was a horrible bloody destructive attack on a civilians that could no longer defend themselves.
The military reasoning for such an unforgivable tactic was that unless the Confederacy was utterly defeated they would not accept surrender and take to the hills and continue with guerrilla warfare.
Not unlike the rational behind dropping the atomic bomb (twice) on Japan.
Sherman's personal regiment during the March was composed of Southerners who were loyal to the Union. There were a whole lot more of them than there were of Harvey's super happy joy joy black Confederates.
The "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is not supported by historians. There was massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops but civilian casualties were low.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Soulhawk said:
skel said:
OK the Californian has retired hurt
Texas, the dude is repping Texas( this week)
you should have been able to tell because the amount of "y'all"s in his poasts
the real revelation in this thread is that, not only has Harvey never been out of the United States, he's also never been in "The North" - talk about provincial
Love how all you ever do on this site is troll.
I've been to Panama about a half dozen times or so, Jamaica once, Mexico a few times. Farthest North I've been is Newport News, Virginia...and then I lived in Eugene, Oregon for a year as well. I've lived in Texas 19 years now. Just so you can correct your sychophantic scorecard.
great thread...and even with a handful of folks butting heads, its important to have these discussions.
hookups comments had me nodding my head. also ive been really surprised throughout the 11 threads that he was the first person to mention jim crow and segregation. sure, slavery was deaded in the 1860s, but the same tune kept marching on for the next HUNDRED years and similar conditions and grinding poverty and inadequate access to resources are still there from what i have read, heard and SEEN.
ive been in every southern state, most several times, often for weeks or months and there definitely is a different feel to race relations, racism then up north (this is coming from my northern white male perspective, of course). but i was always struck with how often southern white folks bring up race, black people,and race relations down south....when there were no black people in the room. I cant even count the times that i was taken into confidence by store owners, obviously because i was white, who would basically start on some "im not racist but..." pronouncement. Race relations seem to weigh heavily on the mind of people down there.
and i have to remind evreyone what possumtom said about MMassachusettes. id corroborate that with a big middle finger to most of Pennsylvania which can be highly prejudiced. there are many neighborhoods in philly that up until very recently prided themselves on beating up any black kid that tried walking through. racism is evreywhere. but that is no excuse at all to defend southern states rights,the confederate flag and what both of them obviously represent.
Comments
Yes, I will have my friend tell his relatives in South Carolina that they shouldn't celebrate twice a year their Confederate heritage because a website says that their family stories and photographs are merely lies. Thank you, Yankee, for once again setting us straight on our own history.
Also for your comment about the U.S. government and Indian wars, might I remind you that there were at least a dozen if not more Indian wars fought by southern colonists and southern states against the Indians.
Just from the U.S. independence to pre-Civil War period
Chickamauga Wars fought in TN, KY, VA, NC, SC, GA
Creek War in AL
Seminole Wars in FL
Cherokee War in TX
To name a few
b/w
Actually I think this conversation has been pretty good....lots of opinions being shared and in a fairly civilized way.
If by "going nowhere" you mean I haven't agreed that the Civil War was 100% about Slavery and nothing else, or that not everyone wearing a Skynyrd T-Shirt or watchin the Dukes Of Hazzard is an outright bigoted racist, these are minutae in comparison to the fact that I agree with you on the very basic premises being discussed here.
If you want the discussion to "go somewhere" with me, post any specific post or sentence I've posted here and let's discuss how and why it is wrong. Not what you think, imagine or have extrapolated in your own secret mind garden what I "REALLY" mean based on your assumptions that have led you to throw me into the same box as Harvey, or anyone else here.
I didn't say their stories were lies. But dropping some anecdote about black Confederate soldiers as though it were a common occurrence calls for a response.
By the way, when your friend's relatives celebrate their Confederate heritage do they also look back fondly on their women being raped and kids being sold? Highly unlikely.
And by the way, "Yankee" is one of the very last things I would ever call myself, so fuck that word. I don't recall calling you a "cracker," so keep your ignorant slurs to yourself.
You don't even know your own history, so you should be thanking people in this thread.
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its conerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." --Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, commenting on the the Declaration of Independence's equality guarantee.
Is this the heritage ya''ll and ya'lls friends celebrate, Billybob?
Such a thing has been outlawed/corrected for ~150 years now...so obviously no, asshole.
So what exactly are ya'll and ya'lls friends celebrating if ya'll ain't celebrating the "foundations" and "cornerstones" and "great truths" of the Confederacy? The music? Ya'll sit around and talk about Confederate raers?
You can call me an asshole all ya'll want. The fact is you've been apololgizing for, justifying and relativising Confederate slavery this whole thread. That makes you the asshole, not me.
I don't have anything against the South. I don't even care about the Confederate flag.
Your comments however show an ignorance about what exactly was involved with the civil war. You stated that the Civil War was about states' rights and other issues besides slavery, but all of those issues revolved around slavery.
States rights was about the right of the southern states to own slaves. Western expansion was about the right of the south to spread slavery to the new states. Northern industry vs southern agriculture was about slave labor, northern politicians vs southern ones was about maintaining slave rights against what they feared was growing abolitionism and anti-slavery feelings amongst the north, etc.
Saying that the north and government wasn't anti-racist is a red herring. Saying that the U.S. government and flag were killing Indians is irrelevant to the issue, and ignores the fact that the south, like ALL the U.S. states had Indian removal policies and fought wars to kick out the natives.
It's like you're proud of the South, and that's all that matters.
Let's recap who's remains in the fight
Vivant dude, Motown, Desperation Bob, possibly Rock
My money is on Bob for the last word
This is so thrilling, can't wait.
I think it's the main reason that half of the people post here.
Texas, the dude is repping Texas( this week)
you should have been able to tell because the amount of "y'all"s in his poasts
the real revelation in this thread is that, not only has Harvey never been out of the United States, he's also never been in "The North" - talk about provincial
That's not a bad theory if i think back at the past five years of race rel or misogynist :five_pager:
How is that even possible? I've been to all but two Southern states.
the south's way of life (agrarian, independent) wasn't the awful thing...it was the means they used to achieve this way of life, slavery: the destruction of humans, families, spirits, thoughts. An immoral, sinister, barbaric and loathsome means on a gargantuan scale. It needed to be stopped. The union stopped it by the way the best way they knew how at the time: they shot guns at it and set shit on fire. They won, and slavery was outlawed. The south lost...the confederate flag rendered as a symbol of losers.
The south somehow managed to eek out their way of life with new names for slavery such as sharecropping, Jim Crow, the Klan, etc.
Fortunately this culture of hate based on the legacy of slavery is slowly but surely shrinking with each dead redneck. I am not naive to think new rednecks aren't being spawned, but less so I imagine.
I was in west central Arkansas today...very deep in redneck territory...towns with only a few hundred people in them, 95% white and I only saw 3 confederate flags. This is VERY different from what I saw 25 years ago in the same area of the country. Even though one may consider just one confederate flag as being too many, attitudes are changing.
what I want to try to say is that while the civil war more than likely meant different things to different Southerners at the time and now in the present...no look back at it in a romantic sense, or a look back admiring the independent spirit, the culture or whatever can supersede the gravity of slavery. Slavery is the big pile of bloody turds on the cake at the "celebrating the confederacy" party. (keep in mind using the term "slavery" to describe what was happening in the south at that time is actually too kind of a word. Southern slavery was a system of dehumanization on a scale that was so horrific that another word should really be invented for it).
While you can still have love for the era/culture for many great reasons, the totality of slavery simply crushes those reasons. No amount of killer Allen Collins and Gary Rossington guitar solos is ever gonna change that. The south lost the civil war and the rednecks that hold on to the legacy with a white knuckle grip are losers celebrating losers. The good things about the south are represented in music, food, literature and the good people of the south, this is the reason I live here...the bad things are represented by the confederacy.
Southern pride isnt necessarily a bad thing becasue of the triumphs of culture it gave the world.
Southern pride has no need for the confederate flag as it ultimately the flag of slavery regardless of a smattering of admirable qualities.
PS. No person has any right to tell someone who is descended from slaves that their interpretation of the confederate flag is "wrong" or "misunderstood". My 2 cents.
The rednecks 100 years ago ran the Plantation.
The rednecks I see today run the Meth Lab.
While the soldiers of the South were undeniable shooting at those who were shooting at them, the first shoots went from the South to the North.
Sherman's March (also known as setting shit on fire) was a horrible bloody destructive attack on a civilians that could no longer defend themselves.
The military reasoning for such an unforgivable tactic was that unless the Confederacy was utterly defeated they would not accept surrender and take to the hills and continue with guerrilla warfare.
Not unlike the rational behind dropping the atomic bomb (twice) on Japan.
I think your point, that even poor whites, who didn't own slaves, benefited from the slavery is a good one. And rarely acknowledged.
While I suppose all wars are about independence, beyond the slavery issue, independence was not really the issue. But then, after the war, with reconstruction, there is no doubt that Southerners, especially white southerners, felt their independence was being threatened, as they were basically under federal rule.
Sherman's personal regiment during the March was composed of Southerners who were loyal to the Union. There were a whole lot more of them than there were of Harvey's super happy joy joy black Confederates.
The "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is not supported by historians. There was massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops but civilian casualties were low.
Love how all you ever do on this site is troll.
I've been to Panama about a half dozen times or so, Jamaica once, Mexico a few times. Farthest North I've been is Newport News, Virginia...and then I lived in Eugene, Oregon for a year as well. I've lived in Texas 19 years now. Just so you can correct your sychophantic scorecard.
Also...great post, Hook_Up.
btw, you may want to look up sycophantic in the dictionary
hookups comments had me nodding my head. also ive been really surprised throughout the 11 threads that he was the first person to mention jim crow and segregation. sure, slavery was deaded in the 1860s, but the same tune kept marching on for the next HUNDRED years and similar conditions and grinding poverty and inadequate access to resources are still there from what i have read, heard and SEEN.
ive been in every southern state, most several times, often for weeks or months and there definitely is a different feel to race relations, racism then up north (this is coming from my northern white male perspective, of course). but i was always struck with how often southern white folks bring up race, black people,and race relations down south....when there were no black people in the room. I cant even count the times that i was taken into confidence by store owners, obviously because i was white, who would basically start on some "im not racist but..." pronouncement. Race relations seem to weigh heavily on the mind of people down there.
and i have to remind evreyone what possumtom said about MMassachusettes. id corroborate that with a big middle finger to most of Pennsylvania which can be highly prejudiced. there are many neighborhoods in philly that up until very recently prided themselves on beating up any black kid that tried walking through. racism is evreywhere. but that is no excuse at all to defend southern states rights,the confederate flag and what both of them obviously represent.