and Harvey, you seem to be really digging your heels in to defend this shit. its really perplexing to me though how you can take this stand and at the same time be the bastion of defense of southern hiphop. i am far from an expert, but i have never seen a confederate flag in any of the dirty south videos you have posted over the years. would you really rock one when doing your interviews and PR work? why not?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
tripledouble said:
and Harvey, you seem to be really digging your heels in to defend this shit. its really perplexing to me though how you can take this stand and at the same time be the bastion of defense of southern hiphop. i am far from an expert, but i have never seen a confederate flag in any of the dirty south videos you have posted over the years. would you really rock one when doing your interviews and PR work? why not?
Naw, I haven't/wouldn't rock one. Some dudes within Texas rap circles certainly do though. I mean, I can't tell y'all enough that there is meaning to it aside from fringe rednecks who actually want slavery to be reinstated. But y'all obviously don't want to hear any of that in favor of sticking to the base knee-jerk reaction to it. But to really answer your question, if you look on my Texas Rapps blog...I've got the Texas state flag on there. And if we're taking it there, the Texas flag basically represents the murdering and suppression of Mexicans. But aside from that, just like y'all do for the American flag and I do for the Rebel flag, I don't get so bogged down by the negative aspects of it to the point of wanting to get rid of it for any purpose, just because it once stood for something far more sinister and evil. Some people definitely stay aggro down here in relation to the Rebel flag. But for most of us, it's really not that big a deal and whether it's been coopted or backed with revisionist views of history or whatever, feelings aren't being hurt the way some of y'all portray them to be. Free some undeserving people from prison, provide better educational options, curb discrimination when it comes to hiring, etc. Those are the things that people want. A flag burning does noone any real good.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Not saying the Texas flag is as explicitly reprehensible as the Rebel flag, but if dudes on here wanted to, they could easily make the same sort of case for the Texas flag needing to be abandoned. Yet still, this is how we roll...
i don think the main issue at hand here is the flag. i think it would be much more important to speak on the state of southern political leadership...haley barbours,joe wilsons etc.
personally, i cant bring myself to fly the american flag either, too much has been done in its name that im not exactly proud of. but to too many people, the southern flag is a representation of slavery and racism(and i can understand your cries of hypocrisy, because the u.s. flag has blood on it too). so if thats a battle you want to take up...thats all you. it doesnt seem worth it to me. i wouldnt even defend the american flag...in a discussion,i would note some positive things that it represents to people and than for the most part agree with them.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Well, that's probably what I should have done...lol.
man, its a matter of symbolism. sadly, i bet the majority of americans wouldnt even know that that was the flag of texas. but the confederate flag has very powerful symbolic connotations, whether you like it or not. and sure, its different things to different people, but to a hell of a lot of people it speaks to generations of real brutal oppression. if you want to be the crusader for redefinition of what the flag means, go ahead. its extremely thin ice, like the white kid dropping n bombs and falling back on "no, you see the word 'ni**er' just means an ignorant person". ok fine, say that shit all you want, but youre still an asshole and you wont catch that word out of my lips.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
tripledouble said:
man, its a matter of symbolism. sadly, i bet the majority of americans wouldnt even know that that was the flag of texas. but the confederate flag has very powerful symbolic connotations, whether you like it or not. and sure, its different things to different people, but to a hell of a lot of people it speaks to generations of real brutal oppression. if you want to be the crusader for redefinition of what the flag means, go ahead. its extremely thin ice, like the white kid dropping n bombs and falling back on "no, you see the word 'ni**er' just means an ignorant person". ok fine, say that shit all you want, but youre still an asshole and you wont catch that word out of my lips.
Maybe I stand alone on the Strut...but that's far from the case in real life. And I'm not considering a single racist as part of that consideration. Then again, I've never even flown a Rebel flag once in my life...so obviously people are taking my stance on here a little too literally. It's a discussion, leave room for perspectives that don't necessarily match your own. Or don't...no skin offa my teeth really.
Sherman's March (also known as setting shit on fire) was a horrible bloody destructive attack on a civilians that could no longer defend themselves.
The military reasoning for such an unforgivable tactic was that unless the Confederacy was utterly defeated they would not accept surrender and take to the hills and continue with guerrilla warfare.
Not unlike the rational behind dropping the atomic bomb (twice) on Japan.
Sherman's personal regiment during the March was composed of Southerners who were loyal to the Union. There were a whole lot more of them than there were of Harvey's super happy joy joy black Confederates.
The "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is not supported by historians. There was massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops but civilian casualties were low.
Claiming that "massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops" [and burning of towns and private homes] is not a "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is like saying the Confederate flag does not represent the Confederacy and slavery. IMO.
Not saying the Texas flag is as explicitly reprehensible as the Rebel flag, but if dudes on here wanted to, they could easily make the same sort of case for the Texas flag needing to be abandoned. Yet still, this is how we roll...
Sherman's March (also known as setting shit on fire) was a horrible bloody destructive attack on a civilians that could no longer defend themselves.
The military reasoning for such an unforgivable tactic was that unless the Confederacy was utterly defeated they would not accept surrender and take to the hills and continue with guerrilla warfare.
Not unlike the rational behind dropping the atomic bomb (twice) on Japan.
Sherman's personal regiment during the March was composed of Southerners who were loyal to the Union. There were a whole lot more of them than there were of Harvey's super happy joy joy black Confederates.
The "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is not supported by historians. There was massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops but civilian casualties were low.
Claiming that "massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops" [and burning of towns and private homes] is not a "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is like saying the Confederate flag does not represent the Confederacy and slavery. IMO.
The Union didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize that year??
It's a discussion, leave room for perspectives that don't necessarily match your own. Or don't...no skin offa my teeth really.
^^This^^
And I just want to make sure I'm clear on one thing.....
The Hook-Up probably made the most thoughtful / insightful post in this thread and I don't think anyone would disagree with his closing statement which I pasted below....
The_Hook_Up said:
PS. No person has any right to tell someone who is descended from slaves that their interpretation of the confederate flag is "wrong" or "misunderstood". My 2 cents.
And that would mean that we would NOT tell the gentleman in the video below that he was "wrong" or "misundertood"
[/
But if a white man like Harvey was to actually AGREE with the gentleman above who's viewpoint we're supposed to respect, we jump all over his ass and tell him he's wrong.
Last night I remembered when I was a slave in Egypt.
I, and my people, remember our years in bondage once a year.
That we were once slaves shapes who we are today.
For some reason, many think decedents of American slaves should forget about the past, because all that was over 150 years ago.
"This year we are slaves, next year may we all be free."
It's a discussion, leave room for perspectives that don't necessarily match your own. Or don't...no skin offa my teeth really.
^^This^^
And I just want to make sure I'm clear on one thing.....
The Hook-Up probably made the most thoughtful / insightful post in this thread and I don't think anyone would disagree with his closing statement which I pasted below....
The_Hook_Up said:
PS. No person has any right to tell someone who is descended from slaves that their interpretation of the confederate flag is "wrong" or "misunderstood". My 2 cents.
And that would mean that we would NOT tell the gentleman in the video below that he was "wrong" or "misundertood"
[/
But if a white man like Harvey was to actually AGREE with the gentleman above who's viewpoint we're supposed to respect, we jump all over his ass and tell him he's wrong.
Correct??
oh boy...this is on some "why can black people drop the n word but i cant"
if youre going by hookup's quote...i dont think Harvey fits into the demographic that was referred to.
that guy can wave the confederate flag and rebel uniforms all he wants, but even before he opens his mouth im sure his actions mean a hell of a lot of different things to different people and its going to piss some people off. if thats his agenda, ok. im sure there are other avenues to promote southern heritage that dont involve pressing buttons. but maybe im going to get a response that most people down south, black and white, embrace the flag and uniform and i just dont understand cause its a southern thing. whats the difference between being a strong supporter of germany's industrial development and national pride in the 30s?
and personally, i dont really care who people descended from if they are shooting dumb shit out their mouths or acts questionably. clarence thomas being a case in point, (not necessarily refering to the guy in the video).
Sherman's March (also known as setting shit on fire) was a horrible bloody destructive attack on a civilians that could no longer defend themselves.
The military reasoning for such an unforgivable tactic was that unless the Confederacy was utterly defeated they would not accept surrender and take to the hills and continue with guerrilla warfare.
Not unlike the rational behind dropping the atomic bomb (twice) on Japan.
Sherman's personal regiment during the March was composed of Southerners who were loyal to the Union. There were a whole lot more of them than there were of Harvey's super happy joy joy black Confederates.
The "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is not supported by historians. There was massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops but civilian casualties were low.
Claiming that "massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops" [and burning of towns and private homes] is not a "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is like saying the Confederate flag does not represent the Confederacy and slavery. IMO.
Crops and infrastructure don't get "bloody." It's an important distinction, IMO. You made it sound like the goal was to kill a lot of civilians, but that wasn't the goal and it didn't happen.
oh boy...this is on some "why can black people drop the n word but i cant"
I can see the slight similarity.....I thought it came across more like we can respect an opinion but it's wrong to agree with it.
If you watched the video, do you respect that man's opinion??
There's a vast gulf between respecting someone's right to hold an opinion and respecting the opinion. I watched the video and I think he's nuts. It reminds me of Hunter Thompson talking about a black member of George Wallace's entourage during the 1972 campaign. There are oddities in all walks of life.
" if God wills that [the war] continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether."
A black man going to Klan rallys and kissing white women has to count as one of the nuttiest pieces of performance art I've ever heard of. Truly next level.
from my perspective, the most trenchant facts of the Civil War are not that it turned "brother against brother," or that it produced a plethora of great military minds, or even that it produced arguably our greatest leaders. In sum the most trenchant facts, for me, as always, emanate from this:
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
this:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth...
And this:
You cannot make soldiers of slaves, or slaves of soldiers. The day you make a soldier of them is the beginning of the end of the Revolution. And if slaves seem good soldiers, then our whole theory of slavery is wrong.
It's really simple for me. One group of Americans attempted to raise a country on property in Negroes. Another group of Americans, many of them Negroes themselves, stopped them.
Kid Rock article from some blog. I saw the news in this mornings paper.
Upon reading Billboard's report that crappy rap-country mish-masher Kid Rock received a Great Expectations Award from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People on Sunday, our first reaction was, WTF? People still listen to Kid Rock? Our second thought was, WTF? How has Kid Rock advanced anything other than the general suckiness of music?
But then we thought, maybe the award has to do with that sophisticated study of biracial dating Kid Rock penned in the '90s. It was titled "Black Chick, White Guy," and detailed how Kid Rock saved a "black chick, with a real white accent" from a "dope dealin' n**ger" only to find out she was just a "slut."
Or maybe it has to do with the Midwesterner's expert understanding of race relations in the South and the symbolism attached to the confederate flag, which he proudly flies at performances and in videos.
As he told Guardian UK in 2008: "Sure, it's definitely got some scars, but I've never had an issue with it. To me, it just represents pride in Southern rock 'n' roll music, plus it just looks cool." Apparently, citizens of 1860s America were listening to Lynyrd Skynyrd and other rock 'n' roll music that didn't exist until the 1950s, and not the sound of gunfire and tears.
But Kid Rock has a better theory for why he was given this award, which he articulated in a totally not awkward acceptance speech: "I love America, I love Detroit, and I love black people!" Maybe next year Donald Trump will be given an award for declaring a "great relationship with the blacks"?
Comments
Naw, I haven't/wouldn't rock one. Some dudes within Texas rap circles certainly do though. I mean, I can't tell y'all enough that there is meaning to it aside from fringe rednecks who actually want slavery to be reinstated. But y'all obviously don't want to hear any of that in favor of sticking to the base knee-jerk reaction to it. But to really answer your question, if you look on my Texas Rapps blog...I've got the Texas state flag on there. And if we're taking it there, the Texas flag basically represents the murdering and suppression of Mexicans. But aside from that, just like y'all do for the American flag and I do for the Rebel flag, I don't get so bogged down by the negative aspects of it to the point of wanting to get rid of it for any purpose, just because it once stood for something far more sinister and evil. Some people definitely stay aggro down here in relation to the Rebel flag. But for most of us, it's really not that big a deal and whether it's been coopted or backed with revisionist views of history or whatever, feelings aren't being hurt the way some of y'all portray them to be. Free some undeserving people from prison, provide better educational options, curb discrimination when it comes to hiring, etc. Those are the things that people want. A flag burning does noone any real good.
personally, i cant bring myself to fly the american flag either, too much has been done in its name that im not exactly proud of. but to too many people, the southern flag is a representation of slavery and racism(and i can understand your cries of hypocrisy, because the u.s. flag has blood on it too). so if thats a battle you want to take up...thats all you. it doesnt seem worth it to me. i wouldnt even defend the american flag...in a discussion,i would note some positive things that it represents to people and than for the most part agree with them.
Maybe I stand alone on the Strut...but that's far from the case in real life. And I'm not considering a single racist as part of that consideration. Then again, I've never even flown a Rebel flag once in my life...so obviously people are taking my stance on here a little too literally. It's a discussion, leave room for perspectives that don't necessarily match your own. Or don't...no skin offa my teeth really.
Claiming that "massive destruction of infrastructure and seizure of crops" [and burning of towns and private homes] is not a "horrible bloody destructive attack on civilians" is like saying the Confederate flag does not represent the Confederacy and slavery. IMO.
Good point.
The Union didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize that year??
^^This^^
And I just want to make sure I'm clear on one thing.....
The Hook-Up probably made the most thoughtful / insightful post in this thread and I don't think anyone would disagree with his closing statement which I pasted below....
And that would mean that we would NOT tell the gentleman in the video below that he was "wrong" or "misundertood"
But if a white man like Harvey was to actually AGREE with the gentleman above who's viewpoint we're supposed to respect, we jump all over his ass and tell him he's wrong.
Correct??
I, and my people, remember our years in bondage once a year.
That we were once slaves shapes who we are today.
For some reason, many think decedents of American slaves should forget about the past, because all that was over 150 years ago.
"This year we are slaves, next year may we all be free."
Gut Yontiff
oh boy...this is on some "why can black people drop the n word but i cant"
if youre going by hookup's quote...i dont think Harvey fits into the demographic that was referred to.
that guy can wave the confederate flag and rebel uniforms all he wants, but even before he opens his mouth im sure his actions mean a hell of a lot of different things to different people and its going to piss some people off. if thats his agenda, ok. im sure there are other avenues to promote southern heritage that dont involve pressing buttons. but maybe im going to get a response that most people down south, black and white, embrace the flag and uniform and i just dont understand cause its a southern thing. whats the difference between being a strong supporter of germany's industrial development and national pride in the 30s?
and personally, i dont really care who people descended from if they are shooting dumb shit out their mouths or acts questionably. clarence thomas being a case in point, (not necessarily refering to the guy in the video).
I can see the slight similarity.....I thought it came across more like we can respect an opinion but it's wrong to agree with it.
If you watched the video, do you respect that man's opinion??
Crops and infrastructure don't get "bloody." It's an important distinction, IMO. You made it sound like the goal was to kill a lot of civilians, but that wasn't the goal and it didn't happen.
There's a vast gulf between respecting someone's right to hold an opinion and respecting the opinion. I watched the video and I think he's nuts. It reminds me of Hunter Thompson talking about a black member of George Wallace's entourage during the 1972 campaign. There are oddities in all walks of life.
Abe Lincoln
I am far more interested in whether Rock thinks this guy is a nut. What do you think about what he is saying?
No, I'm not going to call him a nut.
He seems genuinely passionate about his stance and has spent more time and effort behind it than certainly I have.
I don't see his opinion harming others or promoting anything that hurts society so I'll just respect his opinion even if I don't agree with it.
He's a nut:
http://jeffwinbush.com/2010/06/01/h-k-edgerton-is-one-happy-house-negro/
And he neglects to mention that he's the former head of the Asheville NAACP because they kicked him out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._K._Edgerton
And yes, he thinks slaves had it mighty fine:
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2000/summer/confederates-in-black
The math sure does add up to nut.
"Fiendin??? on some of that White stank!"
Advanced calculus.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/04/the-civil-war-isnt-tragic/237888/
Upon reading Billboard's report that crappy rap-country mish-masher Kid Rock received a Great Expectations Award from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People on Sunday, our first reaction was, WTF? People still listen to Kid Rock? Our second thought was, WTF? How has Kid Rock advanced anything other than the general suckiness of music?
But then we thought, maybe the award has to do with that sophisticated study of biracial dating Kid Rock penned in the '90s. It was titled "Black Chick, White Guy," and detailed how Kid Rock saved a "black chick, with a real white accent" from a "dope dealin' n**ger" only to find out she was just a "slut."
Or maybe it has to do with the Midwesterner's expert understanding of race relations in the South and the symbolism attached to the confederate flag, which he proudly flies at performances and in videos.
As he told Guardian UK in 2008: "Sure, it's definitely got some scars, but I've never had an issue with it. To me, it just represents pride in Southern rock 'n' roll music, plus it just looks cool." Apparently, citizens of 1860s America were listening to Lynyrd Skynyrd and other rock 'n' roll music that didn't exist until the 1950s, and not the sound of gunfire and tears.
But Kid Rock has a better theory for why he was given this award, which he articulated in a totally not awkward acceptance speech: "I love America, I love Detroit, and I love black people!" Maybe next year Donald Trump will be given an award for declaring a "great relationship with the blacks"?
http://www.nola.com/celebrities/index.ssf/2011/05/kid_rock_accepts_naacp_great_e.html