I never stated that all polls are meaningless...to the contrary, I'm a scientist and know if done correctly they can be accurate and meaningful.....and scientific.
The specific one you cited is bullshit.....seeking out and polling 240 like minded people out of 2.8 million means less than nothing when used to represent a large percentage of an entire state.
But it wasn't a pol of the entire state, just the Republicans in that state. If you examine the poll in that light your numbers change quite a bit and bring the percentages in line with polls you'd respect.
Mississippi is 35-40% black and for some odd reason (I have no idea what it could be, do you?) not a whole lot of them are Republicans.
I'm saying you're calling that poll bullshit not because of methodology but because it doesn't support your "all regions are the same" ideology. I'm still waiting for you to offer data in support of that position, but I think if you could do that you would have done it already.
I know you can't even begin to address the "10% of white Alabamans voting for Obama" fact because there's just no possible way to spin it to conform with your "all regions are the same" theme. No possible way.
Unless they thought the name "Obama" was somehow an insult directed at Alabama. Yeah, maybe it was something like that. Like it was code for Zero-bama.
What no one has done in this thread is defend racism, slavery or the Confederate flag.
What they have done is defend the Confederacy, succession and "states rights". Plus Harvey did defend the flag.
To me that's like saying, It's too bad all those Jews were killed, but National Socialism cleaned up the streets and got the trains running on time, plus it was really about pride not racism.
The things that I can do to honestly and sincerely address the effects of slavery are unfortunately limited to being colorblind when hiring associates and treating everyone equally after I do.....teaching my children about every kind of racism and hoping that their actions and ideals moving forward works toward a society that judges people only by their actions. I've been involved in my community but not necessarily on a racial black/white level....I've worked with and coached 100's of kids of all walks of life and tried to make their life a little better and them better people.....hopefully I've reached at least a couple.
Rock that's more than most of us do, and it is all most of us can do.
Try to live right, teach others and be an example.
And it is not always easy.
The other things we can do is recognize and denounce injustice when we see it.
In the present, and in the past.
When we discount injustice or deny it's existence, we are doing less than we can.
I gotta agree with dan because when i see a confederate flag , I get why my friends who are Jewish get upset when they see a nazi flag. For example, a lot of my jewish friends don't even buy Ford, Mercedes, or Audio because of their Nazi connections. Now I am not saying that I will never bank with Chase, Citibank, Wachovia (now wells fargo) because of their history with slavery and the profits that they amassed over the years from slavery, but I am just saying a confederate flag represents the VERY painful past of this country's involvement in slavery! No amount of revisionist history will change that! I don't care if someone rocks a confederate flag is not outwardly racist..to me, that person has serious issues that need to be addressed!
I gotta agree with dan because when i see a confederate flag , I get why my friends who are Jewish get upset when they see a nazi flag. For example, a lot of my jewish friends don't even buy Ford, Mercedes, or Audio because of their Nazi connections. Now I am not saying that I will never bank with Chase, Citibank, Wachovia (now wells fargo) because of their history with slavery and the profits that they amassed over the years from slavery, but I am just saying a confederate flag represents the VERY painful past of this country's involvement in slavery! No amount of revisionist history will change that! I don't care if someone rocks a confederate flag is not outwardly racist..to me, that person has serious issues that need to be addressed!
To many people who quite simply don't know the history, the rebel flag means nothing more than Lynyrd Skynyrd and/or The Dukes Of Hazard....you can call them ignorant and try to educate them, but assuming they have serious issues and/or are racists is a pretty big leap.
When I see some moron wearing a Charles Manson t-shirt I shake my head and think he's an idiot, but to assume he's a murderer or supports murder is a stretch.
Some dude that flys the Confederate Flag and has a White Power tattoo...HE has serious issues that need to be addressed.
The kid playing with his model of the General Lee car from the Dukes Of Hazard....not so much.
Rock would u say the same thing about a person sporting a nazi flag?? the thing is that in experiences people who rock a confederate flag 9 times out of ten have always have had ill feelings towards people of color.
Rock would u say the same thing about a person sporting a nazi flag?? the thing is that in experiences people who rock a confederate flag 9 times out of ten have always have had ill feelings towards people of color.
The Nazi flag has never been used as a symbol for a prime time TV Show or a mainstream rock band(to my knowledge).
BUT
The swastika is used by Hindus, Buddhists and even American Indians as a decorative symbol and certianly when seen in that context it does not(or should not) raise the ire of Jews.
When the Confedrate Army used the Rebel Flag is stood for a very specific, racist stance.
When the Dukes of Hazard or Lynyrd Skynyrd used it, it didn't.
Do you believe either the band or TV show promoted, supported or stood for racism?
I grew up in a primarily Jewish neighborhood and when I was about 12 I wore something that was called a "Surfers Cross". One of my friends father's scolded me and told me it was a symbol of the Nazi Army.....I never wore it again out of respect(and not wanting to be scolded) but it had no ill intent on my part, nor on the part of the 1,000's of other kids who wore them.
I just think things should be put into perspective before condemning people for what they probably don't know, or support based on a flag or symbol that has carried multiple meanings.
Look, you lose any credibility on the Southern flag when it is pointed out that it stands for slavery and oppression. I'm sorry if this hurts people, but you know... You made that bed when you ENSLAVED people.
Look, you lose any credibility on the Southern flag when it is pointed out that it stands for slavery and oppression. I'm sorry if this hurts people, but you know... You made that bed when you ENSLAVED people.
Quit with the justifications.
So seriously....the 18 year old kid who bought a Skynyrd t-shirt in 1977 at a concert or bought a General Lee toy car is a racist.
And that my wearing the "Surfer's Cross" which also held an evil meaning to some people makes me guilty too?
We as educated adults who are considerate and sensitive to what this flag means know that flying it or wearing it sends a negative message.
Are you saying these kids did know better or SHOULD have known better??
Or that anyone with a southern rock t-shirt with a rebel flag on it is truly a racist?
No I don't believe you had any ill intent when you or some child wears something like that, but adults should know better. As you said, this 2011...people cannot keep claiming ignorance. Yes, I do believe a TV show such as the Dukes of Hazard had a lot underlining racist themes especially around the fact they had a confederate flag as a main part of the show. Can you imagine a show where they had a Nazi flag on their car? No, I don't think you would! Jewish people would rightfully be protesting and angry. Therefore, people should be surprised if black folks do. To the "innocent" public, that show seemed like harmless fun but many black folks didn't find that shit funny at all!
For an adult in 2011 to not know how a nazi Flag or a confederate flag represents such pain and hurt for people is beyond belief. I, like you want to help heal the wounds of the past. However, we cannot do that until folks of color in this country fully express their anger and pain in that lets us exhale! I mean that flag and the civil war represents to black folks a time when our freedom was at stake and there were many who wanted us to continue to be slaves. If people out there can understand and agree that the Nazi Flag represents an evil stain on the human race then they should be able to understand and agree why the confederate flag does as well!
Good point noting that the nazi flag and nazi swastikas are verboten and the confederate flag is not.
Why?
I think the answer is racism.
People offended by the nazi flag had the voice and influence to keep it's use out of mainstream media.
People offended by the Confederate flag, not so much.
Not that we couldn't get toy German soldiers growing up with swastikas. And let's not forget Hogan's Heroes.
I think right minded people, like Rock, and Zilla and HC should decry the use of the Confederate flag, not make excuses.
I'm not saying that YOU are a racist... but, I AM saying that the person who buys that shirt has to understand that other people may label them as such, and the "meaning" of that flag isn't really up for interpretation- and you can blame Jeff Davis, Bill Lee and some other assholes for that. And, no amount of "but, I like this band," is going to make up for, "but, that band's logo represents racism, murder, and opression, so lose the shirt."
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
It's obviously not good enough that the Union was restored and that slavery was abolished when the Civil War was actually about making sure noone ever flies that danged Rebel flag again.
No I don't believe you had any ill intent when you or some child wears something like that, but adults should know better. As you said, this 2011...people cannot keep claiming ignorance. Yes, I do believe a TV show such as the Dukes of Hazard had a lot underlining racist themes especially around the fact they had a confederate flag as a main part of the show. Can you imagine a show where they had a Nazi flag on their car? No, I don't think you would! Jewish people would rightfully be protesting and angry. Therefore, people should be surprised if black folks do. To the "innocent" public, that show seemed like harmless fun but many black folks didn't find that shit funny at all!
For an adult in 2011 to not know how a nazi Flag or a confederate flag represents such pain and hurt for people is beyond belief. I, like you want to help heal the wounds of the past. However, we cannot do that until folks of color in this country fully express their anger and pain in that lets us exhale! I mean that flag and the civil war represents to black folks a time when our freedom was at stake and there were many who wanted us to continue to be slaves. If people out there can understand and agree that the Nazi Flag represents an evil stain on the human race then they should be able to understand and agree why the confederate flag does as well!
Amir....thanks for that note...I have honestly never heard the perspective that the Dukes Of Hazard offended black people. I don't believe white people enjoyed it because it had a symbol that stood for racism but I could be wrong about that too. I was never a fan of the show, simply because I thought it sucked.
I was and am a fan of Lynyrd Skynyrd's music even though they used the Confederate flag as a logo. If that makes me guilty of a degree of racism I guess that's an issue I'll have to deal with. I'd like to think that the music in my ears does not effect the integrity I try to uphold.
By no means am I defending anyone who knows what the Rebel Flag stands for and still displays it proudly....they are scumbags..
It just seems that there are a lot of people who need to be better educated rather than ridiculed.
I gotta agree with dan because when i see a confederate flag , I get why my friends who are Jewish get upset when they see a nazi flag. For example, a lot of my jewish friends don't even buy Ford, Mercedes, or Audio because of their Nazi connections. Now I am not saying that I will never bank with Chase, Citibank, Wachovia (now wells fargo) because of their history with slavery and the profits that they amassed over the years from slavery, but I am just saying a confederate flag represents the VERY painful past of this country's involvement in slavery! No amount of revisionist history will change that! I don't care if someone rocks a confederate flag is not outwardly racist..to me, that person has serious issues that need to be addressed!
To many people who quite simply don't know the history, the rebel flag means nothing more than Lynyrd Skynyrd and/or The Dukes Of Hazard....you can call them ignorant and try to educate them, but assuming they have serious issues and/or are racists is a pretty big leap.
When I see some moron wearing a Charles Manson t-shirt I shake my head and think he's an idiot, but to assume he's a murderer or supports murder is a stretch.
Some dude that flys the Confederate Flag and has a White Power tattoo...HE has serious issues that need to be addressed.
The kid playing with his model of the General Lee car from the Dukes Of Hazard....not so much.
True. Hardcore racists somehow managed to "rehabilitate" the battle flag in the 50s and 60s, and now it appears "normal" to their kids and grandkids.
It's still a symbol of the very worst sort of racism to anyone with an education or any sort of informed sensibility, but there just aren't enough people like that.
Look, you lose any credibility on the Southern flag when it is pointed out that it stands for slavery and oppression. I'm sorry if this hurts people, but you know... You made that bed when you ENSLAVED people.
Quit with the justifications.
So seriously....the 18 year old kid who bought a Skynyrd t-shirt in 1977 at a concert or bought a General Lee toy car is a racist.
And that my wearing the "Surfer's Cross" which also held an evil meaning to some people makes me guilty too?
We as educated adults who are considerate and sensitive to what this flag means know that flying it or wearing it sends a negative message.
Are you saying these kids did know better or SHOULD have known better??
Or that anyone with a southern rock t-shirt with a rebel flag on it is truly a racist?
You stopped wearing the Surfer's Cross once the association was pointed out to you.
Once the kid buying the Skynyrd flag shirt finds out what he's wearing, he should consider doing the same thing.
Skynyrd's use of that symbol always bothered me because I don't believe for a minute that they and their management didn't know EXACTLY what they were doing by using it. They were a great band but that was a terrible choice.
It's obviously not good enough that the Union was restored and that slavery was abolished when the Civil War was actually about making sure noone ever flies that danged Rebel flag again.
Fly it all you want. Just don't expect people to applaud you for it.
I also support your right to take pictures of your own dumps and post them on the internet, but I wouldn't applaud that, either, and it would be a significantly less disgusting action.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Ok, ya'll. Must have missed that movement trying to get the US flag taken down from state capitals due to it being a well accepted symbol of slavery, Jim Crow and racism. Could ya'll post a link to that story?
Sure it is. It signifies beating your beloved slaveowners and the Nazis, and letting untold millions of immigrants in to have a great life. Including my parents.
Who did the Confederates beat other than helpless slaves? I'll leave out the endless rapes. I know you don't even want to think about such things while you're eulogizing the Land Of Cotton.
So one flag has a mixed history. True. But the Confederate flag doesn't. It's unadulterated worthlessness that no decent person can defend.
I keep seeing Dixie fans talk about all the other wonderful things it supposedly represents but they never seem to spell out just what those things are. I guess that because it's bullshit.
Seriously, you're coughing up balls of shit in this thread like a cat with obstructed bowels.
I've lived in the North for almost half my life and in the South for the other half...there are racist fucks in both places and stereotyping the South as primarily racist in 2011 is as offensive as any other stereotype....I've never met a person who owned slaves nor have I ever met anyone who longs for the 'good ol days" of slavery, that they couldn't have possibly experienced in the first place.
Comments
But it wasn't a pol of the entire state, just the Republicans in that state. If you examine the poll in that light your numbers change quite a bit and bring the percentages in line with polls you'd respect.
Mississippi is 35-40% black and for some odd reason (I have no idea what it could be, do you?) not a whole lot of them are Republicans.
I'm saying you're calling that poll bullshit not because of methodology but because it doesn't support your "all regions are the same" ideology. I'm still waiting for you to offer data in support of that position, but I think if you could do that you would have done it already.
I know you can't even begin to address the "10% of white Alabamans voting for Obama" fact because there's just no possible way to spin it to conform with your "all regions are the same" theme. No possible way.
Unless they thought the name "Obama" was somehow an insult directed at Alabama. Yeah, maybe it was something like that. Like it was code for Zero-bama.
That must be it.
What they have done is defend the Confederacy, succession and "states rights". Plus Harvey did defend the flag.
To me that's like saying, It's too bad all those Jews were killed, but National Socialism cleaned up the streets and got the trains running on time, plus it was really about pride not racism.
This made me stop calling people racist until they, you know, actually did something that was racist.
Rock that's more than most of us do, and it is all most of us can do.
Try to live right, teach others and be an example.
And it is not always easy.
The other things we can do is recognize and denounce injustice when we see it.
In the present, and in the past.
When we discount injustice or deny it's existence, we are doing less than we can.
This made me stop calling people anti-semetic until they, you know, actually did something that was anti-semitic.
No.
Are you suggesting Bo & Luke Duke weren't racists?
And Disney!
Sorry Herm.
To many people who quite simply don't know the history, the rebel flag means nothing more than Lynyrd Skynyrd and/or The Dukes Of Hazard....you can call them ignorant and try to educate them, but assuming they have serious issues and/or are racists is a pretty big leap.
When I see some moron wearing a Charles Manson t-shirt I shake my head and think he's an idiot, but to assume he's a murderer or supports murder is a stretch.
Some dude that flys the Confederate Flag and has a White Power tattoo...HE has serious issues that need to be addressed.
The kid playing with his model of the General Lee car from the Dukes Of Hazard....not so much.
The Nazi flag has never been used as a symbol for a prime time TV Show or a mainstream rock band(to my knowledge).
BUT
The swastika is used by Hindus, Buddhists and even American Indians as a decorative symbol and certianly when seen in that context it does not(or should not) raise the ire of Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
When the Confedrate Army used the Rebel Flag is stood for a very specific, racist stance.
When the Dukes of Hazard or Lynyrd Skynyrd used it, it didn't.
Do you believe either the band or TV show promoted, supported or stood for racism?
I grew up in a primarily Jewish neighborhood and when I was about 12 I wore something that was called a "Surfers Cross". One of my friends father's scolded me and told me it was a symbol of the Nazi Army.....I never wore it again out of respect(and not wanting to be scolded) but it had no ill intent on my part, nor on the part of the 1,000's of other kids who wore them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfer's_cross
I just think things should be put into perspective before condemning people for what they probably don't know, or support based on a flag or symbol that has carried multiple meanings.
Quit with the justifications.
No need to call me out. Twice!
So seriously....the 18 year old kid who bought a Skynyrd t-shirt in 1977 at a concert or bought a General Lee toy car is a racist.
And that my wearing the "Surfer's Cross" which also held an evil meaning to some people makes me guilty too?
We as educated adults who are considerate and sensitive to what this flag means know that flying it or wearing it sends a negative message.
Are you saying these kids did know better or SHOULD have known better??
Or that anyone with a southern rock t-shirt with a rebel flag on it is truly a racist?
For an adult in 2011 to not know how a nazi Flag or a confederate flag represents such pain and hurt for people is beyond belief. I, like you want to help heal the wounds of the past. However, we cannot do that until folks of color in this country fully express their anger and pain in that lets us exhale! I mean that flag and the civil war represents to black folks a time when our freedom was at stake and there were many who wanted us to continue to be slaves. If people out there can understand and agree that the Nazi Flag represents an evil stain on the human race then they should be able to understand and agree why the confederate flag does as well!
Why?
I think the answer is racism.
People offended by the nazi flag had the voice and influence to keep it's use out of mainstream media.
People offended by the Confederate flag, not so much.
Not that we couldn't get toy German soldiers growing up with swastikas. And let's not forget Hogan's Heroes.
I think right minded people, like Rock, and Zilla and HC should decry the use of the Confederate flag, not make excuses.
On the other hand, I support this guy's [down the block from me] right to fly it.
http://www.kval.com/news/local/118185359.html
Amir....thanks for that note...I have honestly never heard the perspective that the Dukes Of Hazard offended black people. I don't believe white people enjoyed it because it had a symbol that stood for racism but I could be wrong about that too. I was never a fan of the show, simply because I thought it sucked.
I was and am a fan of Lynyrd Skynyrd's music even though they used the Confederate flag as a logo. If that makes me guilty of a degree of racism I guess that's an issue I'll have to deal with. I'd like to think that the music in my ears does not effect the integrity I try to uphold.
By no means am I defending anyone who knows what the Rebel Flag stands for and still displays it proudly....they are scumbags..
It just seems that there are a lot of people who need to be better educated rather than ridiculed.
Were there any black folks on the show?
All I remember was the show being filled with characters who were portrayed as dumbass hillbillies.
And Daisy Dukes.
True. Hardcore racists somehow managed to "rehabilitate" the battle flag in the 50s and 60s, and now it appears "normal" to their kids and grandkids.
It's still a symbol of the very worst sort of racism to anyone with an education or any sort of informed sensibility, but there just aren't enough people like that.
You stopped wearing the Surfer's Cross once the association was pointed out to you.
Once the kid buying the Skynyrd flag shirt finds out what he's wearing, he should consider doing the same thing.
Skynyrd's use of that symbol always bothered me because I don't believe for a minute that they and their management didn't know EXACTLY what they were doing by using it. They were a great band but that was a terrible choice.
Fly it all you want. Just don't expect people to applaud you for it.
I also support your right to take pictures of your own dumps and post them on the internet, but I wouldn't applaud that, either, and it would be a significantly less disgusting action.
Ok, ya'll. Must have missed that movement trying to get the US flag taken down from state capitals due to it being a well accepted symbol of slavery, Jim Crow and racism. Could ya'll post a link to that story?
Thanks, ya'll.
Sure it is. It signifies beating your beloved slaveowners and the Nazis, and letting untold millions of immigrants in to have a great life. Including my parents.
Who did the Confederates beat other than helpless slaves? I'll leave out the endless rapes. I know you don't even want to think about such things while you're eulogizing the Land Of Cotton.
So one flag has a mixed history. True. But the Confederate flag doesn't. It's unadulterated worthlessness that no decent person can defend.
I keep seeing Dixie fans talk about all the other wonderful things it supposedly represents but they never seem to spell out just what those things are. I guess that because it's bullshit.
Seriously, you're coughing up balls of shit in this thread like a cat with obstructed bowels.
Look away, look away, look away.
:face_melt:
how old are you?