When The NBA absorbed the ABA, the league got to see the Rick Barry's and George McGinnis'. Those cats were just as athletic IMO as Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter.
you are seriously comparing the athleticism of rick barry to tmac and vince carter? rick barry would laugh at you.
Dork the NEW BIRD.......GTFOHWTB!! Dork is good, but he doesnt have Bird's all around game.
dirk is 7 feet tall....and not even one of the top 5 players in the nba right now.
When The NBA absorbed the ABA, the league got to see the Rick Barry's and George McGinnis'. Those cats were just as athletic IMO as Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter.
you are seriously comparing the athleticism of rick barry to tmac and vince carter? rick barry would laugh at you.
If you judge an ATHLETE by how High he can Jump or how fantastic his dunks are NO.
What Has Tracy McGrady's 'Athleticism' gotten him? He doesnt play defense.
All these dudes have serious flaws. The greatest ones have the least flaws in ANY ERA.
Chris Paul is Faster than Isiah Thomas?
Nate Robinson jumps higher than David Thompson?
Odom or Worthy? - Really this shit is all in context.
Great players need the right dudes around them to succeed.
That Jordan Prime team had some slow ass white boys who could follow the triangle,hit the open jump shot, and do all the little things needed.
On paper Paxon isnt as 'ATHLETIC' as Kirk Hinrich, but he the more consistant shooter in the system w/ Pippen and them.
Those Spurs teams that Won arent some Super-"ATHLETES" yet they beat the hell out of some More "ATHLETIC" teams.
Its a bunch of bullshit.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Players today try too hard at simple basketball tasks, essentially lessening their effectiveness with too many implicit jukes and internal exertions of chest-pounding strength. They are basically psyching themselves out, thinking that the quickest way from a to b (a being the ball, and b being the ball in the hole) takes c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, and k to get there.
The 3-point line doesn't help style-wise and it sucks that players practically give up from jump any faith in the fast break. You could say that defense is generally more staunch nowadays, but dudes like Kobe and Lebron prove all too often that good offense trups good defense no matter how staunch it may be. That's why Kareem would still dominate today as his offensive repertoire was unstoppable no matter how tall, strong, athletic, and tight-fitting his defender might be.
And no one today possesses as much skill as did Pete Maravich, period.
my point is that the nba, collectively, has progressed in terms of talent. so comparing the dominance of wilt, or even jordan is not apt...they didnt face the same level of competition.
even if you think athleticism has not progressed, the pool that the nba draws from is so much wider now (its the whole world, not just the us) that you simply can't be right. it would defy logic that the nba of old, where even here, the talent pool was smaller since exposure was much lower. aau and big time recruiting were not what they were. the appeal of the nba wasn't as high and basketball was not as popular.
you are so wrong its hard to know where to begin. do i need to mention that owners were also concerned with making sure there were enough white players on each team to get a crowd? do you know that in the early days of the nba, it was mostly jews? its too bad i wasn't born 50 years earlier, i'd probably be an nba legend in your eyes.
my point is that the nba, collectively, has progressed in terms of talent. so comparing the dominance of wilt, or even jordan is not apt...they didnt face the same level of competition.
even if you think athleticism has not progressed, the pool that the nba draws from is so much wider now (its the whole world, not just the us) that you simply can't be right. it would defy logic that the nba of old, where even here, the talent pool was smaller since exposure was much lower. aau and big time recruiting were not what they were. the appeal of the nba wasn't as high and basketball was not as popular.
you are so wrong its hard to know where to begin. do i need to mention that owners were also concerned with making sure there were enough white players on each team to get a crowd? do you know that in the early days of the nba, it was mostly jews? its too bad i wasn't born 50 years earlier, i'd probably be an nba legend in your eyes.
my point is that the nba, collectively, has progressed in terms of talent. so comparing the dominance of wilt, or even jordan is not apt...they didnt face the same level of competition.
even if you think athleticism has not progressed, the pool that the nba draws from is so much wider now (its the whole world, not just the us) that you simply can't be right. it would defy logic that the nba of old, where even here, the talent pool was smaller since exposure was much lower. aau and big time recruiting were not what they were. the appeal of the nba wasn't as high and basketball was not as popular.
you are so wrong its hard to know where to begin. do i need to mention that owners were also concerned with making sure there were enough white players on each team to get a crowd? do you know that in the early days of the nba, it was mostly jews? its too bad i wasn't born 50 years earlier, i'd probably be an nba legend in your eyes.
You go from the Jordan-Prime era back to the Syracuse Nationals?
I'd like to keep the NBA were discussing, in the post ABA merge till now, for many of the same reasons you've stated, i wont bring up George Mikan and them.
lets discuss this series instead kobe reminded me of jordan in the playoffs he is more set and less fluid than MJ was but still undeniably great talent they are equal at best superior is just proposterous
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I think it's a mistake to assume that athleticism naturally increases as time progresses. I mean, world records do continue to be bested through time. But they've only started recording such things since when...less than a hundred years ago? Who's to say that there wasn't a dude 200 years ago that could run a sub 9 second 100 or bench press 1500 pounds?
I think the thing that cancels out a lot of the perceived increase in athleticism is that athletes nowadays are so specialized. They have these regimens that are so refined that they don't get the more wordly training that say slinging bales at the shipyard or digging ditches i.e. real work provides. Even just playing more than one sport does the same sort of trick in relation to these position players nowadays whose games have become so across-the-board formulaic that anyone who has played or even just watched for a while can predict moves to a tee before they even happen.
Plus in many ways we are talking about certain individuals with this discussion way more than the collective whole. And whether the league as a whole has gotten better, there were still many individuals from the past that have yet to be surpassed by anyone within this current generation.
Plus in many ways we are talking about certain individuals with this discussion way more than the collective whole. And whether the league as a whole has gotten better, there were still many individuals from the past that have yet to be surpassed by anyone within this current generation.
right. i'm not arguing that jordan/bird/erving or even wilt/russell/barry weren't great players....but you can't compare them to kobe/lebron/garnett because the competition is much, much better now than it was as recent as the 90s. that doesn't mean kobe is better than jordan, it just means that we don't know how jordan (in his prime) would do in the nba of 2009.
i already think lebron is the best nba player ever. i'm sure within 10 years though there will be a replacement.
Lebron didnt play commit to defense till this year. Didnt have a Jump shot until this year.
But he's the Greatest already!!!!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Plus in many ways we are talking about certain individuals with this discussion way more than the collective whole. And whether the league as a whole has gotten better, there were still many individuals from the past that have yet to be surpassed by anyone within this current generation.
right. i'm not arguing that jordan/bird/erving or even wilt/russell/barry weren't great players....but you can't compare them to kobe/lebron/garnett because the competition is much, much better now than it was as recent as the 90s. that doesn't mean kobe is better than jordan, it just means that we don't know how jordan (in his prime) would do in the nba of 2009.
i already think lebron is the best nba player ever. i'm sure within 10 years though there will be a replacement.
Lebron isn't even close to the best player ever. You are putting way too much on potential and flash and possibly even a mancrush to even try to go there at this point.
Jordan is the best ever, far and away.
Lebron isn't even on Jerry West's level yet, and that doesn't even break him into the top20 all-time as of right now.
I mean, I somewhat agree with your competition across the board is better nowadays...but then again, wacth film from the 70's and 80's and I guarantee that the general skill present will surprise you. Dudes were definitely better scorers back then. And it shouldn't be attributed to lax defense, but instead to profound offensive creativity still being an important facet of the game.
There is NO question that athleticism has progressed, but at the cost of sound fundamentals. Free throw shooting and other fundamentals have NOT progressed at all. As a matter of fact, the Euro players, for the most part, have old school fundamentals/mentality and that is what allows them, with inferior athleticism, to play in the NBA today.
As far as Bill Russell goes, a big man is not measured by his height alone. It's HOW they play the game. Kevin Garnett and Dirk are NOT classic big men whereas Tim Duncan and a 6:9 Ben Wallace are/were. To think Russell would not dominate today is foolish.....and your claim that the talent level Russell played against was inferior to the NBA 2009 is laughable......so says...Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier, Wilt, Willis Reed, etc., etc.
Not sure where you received your hoops degree but it is sorely lacking historical perspective and a general feel for the game.
and your claim that the talent level Russell played against was inferior to the NBA 2009 is laughable......so says...Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier, Wilt, Willis Reed, etc., etc.
Not sure where you received your hoops degree but it is sorely lacking historical perspective and a general feel for the game.
how about this historical perspective. go get the data of the us population in the 60s and 70s. now get the data on the world population for today. compare those 2 numbers. the nba is international and is the premier world league. as the years go by, there will be more and more foreign players. there were none in the 60s/70s, now how many are there?
basketball is also much more popular and lucrative now that it was back then. the better athletes are choosing basketball ahead of some of the other major sports for that reason.
The only reason Lebron's size matters -pasue- is because the rules/officiating have changed..Gilmore/Malone etc..even a dude like Joe Barry Carroll would have knocked Lebron on his ass soon as he touched paint..and that would be after he got hand checked to death on the perimeter. A dude like Bill Russell would be a power forward these days,but he'd be a great power forward..
Not only could they handcheck before on D, but it was just far and away more physical, especially in the post. They were literally hittting and elbowing each other to get position. The number of great big men even in the 90s was incredible compared to today, and that had lasted for several decades before.
how about this historical perspective. go get the data of the us population in the 60s and 70s. now get the data on the world population for today. compare those 2 numbers. the nba is international and is the premier world league. as the years go by, there will be more and more foreign players. there were none in the 60s/70s, now how many are there?
basketball is also much more popular and lucrative now that it was back then. .
This is also the reason music is so much better in 2009 than in the 60's, 70's & 80's.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
It wasn't until recently that international players have even been good enough to play in the NBA as their home countries hadn't really adopted basketball the way its now represented in those countries today.
Then again...Hakeem Olajuwon, Detlef Shrempf, Bill Wennington, Arvidas Sabonis, Dikembe Motumbo, George Mureson, Uwe Blab, etc. would typically enroll in a US university as their in to a future in the NBA, opposed to international players today who work through that level at home and then jump straight into the NBA. Point being, it's not like international players in the league is something that only started 3 years ago.
Comments
you are seriously comparing the athleticism of rick barry to tmac and vince carter? rick barry would laugh at you.
dirk is 7 feet tall....and not even one of the top 5 players in the nba right now.
The 3-point line doesn't help style-wise and it sucks that players practically give up from jump any faith in the fast break. You could say that defense is generally more staunch nowadays, but dudes like Kobe and Lebron prove all too often that good offense trups good defense no matter how staunch it may be. That's why Kareem would still dominate today as his offensive repertoire was unstoppable no matter how tall, strong, athletic, and tight-fitting his defender might be.
And no one today possesses as much skill as did Pete Maravich, period.
even if you think athleticism has not progressed, the pool that the nba draws from is so much wider now (its the whole world, not just the us) that you simply can't be right. it would defy logic that the nba of old, where even here, the talent pool was smaller since exposure was much lower. aau and big time recruiting were not what they were. the appeal of the nba wasn't as high and basketball was not as popular.
you are so wrong its hard to know where to begin. do i need to mention that owners were also concerned with making sure there were enough white players on each team to get a crowd? do you know that in the early days of the nba, it was mostly jews? its too bad i wasn't born 50 years earlier, i'd probably be an nba legend in your eyes.
Kareem wouldnt be Dominant????
You go from the Jordan-Prime era back to the Syracuse Nationals?
I'd like to keep the NBA were discussing, in the post ABA merge till now, for many of the same reasons you've stated, i wont bring up George Mikan and them.
kobe reminded me of jordan in the playoffs
he is more set and less fluid than MJ was but still undeniably great talent
they are equal at best superior is just proposterous
I think the thing that cancels out a lot of the perceived increase in athleticism is that athletes nowadays are so specialized. They have these regimens that are so refined that they don't get the more wordly training that say slinging bales at the shipyard or digging ditches i.e. real work provides. Even just playing more than one sport does the same sort of trick in relation to these position players nowadays whose games have become so across-the-board formulaic that anyone who has played or even just watched for a while can predict moves to a tee before they even happen.
Plus in many ways we are talking about certain individuals with this discussion way more than the collective whole. And whether the league as a whole has gotten better, there were still many individuals from the past that have yet to be surpassed by anyone within this current generation.
No fuskin way.
right. i'm not arguing that jordan/bird/erving or even wilt/russell/barry weren't great players....but you can't compare them to kobe/lebron/garnett because the competition is much, much better now than it was as recent as the 90s. that doesn't mean kobe is better than jordan, it just means that we don't know how jordan (in his prime) would do in the nba of 2009.
i already think lebron is the best nba player ever. i'm sure within 10 years though there will be a replacement.
please further your argument
THANK YOU.
LeBron got to the Finals once!!!!!
Didnt have a Jump shot until this year.
But he's the Greatest already!!!!
Lebron isn't even close to the best player ever. You are putting way too much on potential and flash and possibly even a mancrush to even try to go there at this point.
Jordan is the best ever, far and away.
Lebron isn't even on Jerry West's level yet, and that doesn't even break him into the top20 all-time as of right now.
I mean, I somewhat agree with your competition across the board is better nowadays...but then again, wacth film from the 70's and 80's and I guarantee that the general skill present will surprise you. Dudes were definitely better scorers back then. And it shouldn't be attributed to lax defense, but instead to profound offensive creativity still being an important facet of the game.
Pass/Rebound/Defend/Steal/Block/Post-UP/Shoot/Dunk/Slash/Decoy/MidRange/ThreePointer/Involve the entire team.
Legal Hand-checks above the foul line.
i didn't say he was the most accomplished.
he is the best. you can compare kobe to jordan, but lebron is like a new species....one that is 70 lbs heavier but just as fast.
He's simply a Faster Magic Johnson.
There is NO question that athleticism has progressed, but at the cost of sound fundamentals. Free throw shooting and other fundamentals have NOT progressed at all. As a matter of fact, the Euro players, for the most part, have old school fundamentals/mentality and that is what allows them, with inferior athleticism, to play in the NBA today.
As far as Bill Russell goes, a big man is not measured by his height alone. It's HOW they play the game. Kevin Garnett and Dirk are NOT classic big men whereas Tim Duncan and a 6:9 Ben Wallace are/were. To think Russell would not dominate today is foolish.....and your claim that the talent level Russell played against was inferior to the NBA 2009 is laughable......so says...Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier, Wilt, Willis Reed, etc., etc.
Not sure where you received your hoops degree but it is sorely lacking historical perspective and a general feel for the game.
how about this historical perspective. go get the data of the us population in the 60s and 70s. now get the data on the world population for today. compare those 2 numbers. the nba is international and is the premier world league. as the years go by, there will be more and more foreign players. there were none in the 60s/70s, now how many are there?
basketball is also much more popular and lucrative now that it was back then. the better athletes are choosing basketball ahead of some of the other major sports for that reason.
A dude like Bill Russell would be a power forward these days,but he'd be a great power forward..
This is also the reason music is so much better in 2009 than in the 60's, 70's & 80's.
Then again...Hakeem Olajuwon, Detlef Shrempf, Bill Wennington, Arvidas Sabonis, Dikembe Motumbo, George Mureson, Uwe Blab, etc. would typically enroll in a US university as their in to a future in the NBA, opposed to international players today who work through that level at home and then jump straight into the NBA. Point being, it's not like international players in the league is something that only started 3 years ago.
Bill Russell has 11 rings. There is no BEST....IMO.