that process of 'pulling' is a meditation for any dj who has done that
yes. congratulations. you are bored.
the only cure would be for you to write a few more paragraphs on the zen of "placing", where you take the records that have been "pulled" into the crates that you will be using that night.
that process of 'pulling' is a meditation for any dj who has done that
yes. congratulations. you are bored.
the only cure would be for you to write a few more paragraphs on the zen of "placing", where you take the records that have been "pulled" into the crates that you will be using that night.
That's awesome. Picking on a girl. And over some semantic bs. Don't you have some briefs to write?
that process of 'pulling' is a meditation for any dj who has done that
yes. congratulations. you are bored.
the only cure would be for you to write a few more paragraphs on the zen of "placing", where you take the records that have been "pulled" into the crates that you will be using that night.
That's awesome. Picking on a girl. And over some semantic bs. Don't you have some briefs to write?
oh lord. i beg your pardon?
that's ok i probably would write some zen shit about my records, not about their placement though, but maybe i would, for real. kvh is right! i think we are just real different people.
especially if he writes briefs rather than rambling zen diatribes
I seriously think s.erato has changed the game for good. It has given dj's the power to play a wider spectrum, and jump genres incredibly easily by sorting through bpm. Doing that before would require dedication of stickering your records, marking bpm's down.
no. for me it's exactly the opposite. all my bpms are still in my head, even in the s.erato era, because of all those years playing vinyl with no bpm counter, no labeled bpms, that is what you get when you play vinyl to start. even if it's pitch dark you just see your spines and regardless of genre you can hunt out everything that will mix with the track that's playing. now it's very easy. and that's fine. its just that if you have never been on a vinyl format it's likely that you just won't develop that added sense. s.erato makes it a more boring experience for DJ's because you don't start your night by sitting at your house looking through the crates and shelves, spending the time, building your set for the night from one record you pull and then pulling each one out one by one, building your vibe for the night, and being more present not to sound cliche but it's very true. that process of 'pulling' is a meditation for any dj who has done that, night upon night, year upon year. and that aspect is gone with s.erato, even with cd's. that meditation is gone, that process is no longer there. some people would say that is convenient, they can go from whatever they are doing to just putting their laptop bag over a shoulder and going to a gig. no thinking, super easy. sure some people build "crates" on s.erato for different gigs, different nights, but it's not the same. i have moved forward and will play on any format, but playing on vinyl, as many people have acknowledged in this thread, involves much more than just the mere format difference.
I seriously think s.erato has changed the game for good. It has given dj's the power to play a wider spectrum, and jump genres incredibly easily by sorting through bpm. Doing that before would require dedication of stickering your records, marking bpm's down.
no. for me it's exactly the opposite. all my bpms are still in my head, even in the s.erato era, because of all those years playing vinyl with no bpm counter, no labeled bpms, that is what you get when you play vinyl to start. even if it's pitch dark you just see your spines and regardless of genre you can hunt out everything that will mix with the track that's playing. now it's very easy. and that's fine. its just that if you have never been on a vinyl format it's likely that you just won't develop that added sense. s.erato makes it a more boring experience for DJ's because you don't start your night by sitting at your house looking through the crates and shelves, spending the time, building your set for the night from one record you pull and then pulling each one out one by one, building your vibe for the night, and being more present not to sound cliche but it's very true. that process of 'pulling' is a meditation for any dj who has done that, night upon night, year upon year. and that aspect is gone with s.erato, even with cd's. that meditation is gone, that process is no longer there. some people would say that is convenient, they can go from whatever they are doing to just putting their laptop bag over a shoulder and going to a gig. no thinking, super easy. sure some people build "crates" on s.erato for different gigs, different nights, but it's not the same. i have moved forward and will play on any format, but playing on vinyl, as many people have acknowledged in this thread, involves much more than just the mere format difference.
The argument can also be made that S.erato encourages spontaneity and playing to the crowd. I used to plan my sets out in more detail because I had to.. I knew I would only have access to the records I brought with me for the night. Now I generally plan out the first few records and freestyle the rest based on the crowd's reaction.
I seriously think s.erato has changed the game for good. It has given dj's the power to play a wider spectrum, and jump genres incredibly easily by sorting through bpm. Doing that before would require dedication of stickering your records, marking bpm's down.
no. for me it's exactly the opposite. all my bpms are still in my head, even in the s.erato era, because of all those years playing vinyl with no bpm counter, no labeled bpms, that is what you get when you play vinyl to start. even if it's pitch dark you just see your spines and regardless of genre you can hunt out everything that will mix with the track that's playing. now it's very easy. and that's fine. its just that if you have never been on a vinyl format it's likely that you just won't develop that added sense. s.erato makes it a more boring experience for DJ's because you don't start your night by sitting at your house looking through the crates and shelves, spending the time, building your set for the night from one record you pull and then pulling each one out one by one, building your vibe for the night, and being more present not to sound cliche but it's very true. that process of 'pulling' is a meditation for any dj who has done that, night upon night, year upon year. and that aspect is gone with s.erato, even with cd's. that meditation is gone, that process is no longer there. some people would say that is convenient, they can go from whatever they are doing to just putting their laptop bag over a shoulder and going to a gig. no thinking, super easy. sure some people build "crates" on s.erato for different gigs, different nights, but it's not the same. i have moved forward and will play on any format, but playing on vinyl, as many people have acknowledged in this thread, involves much more than just the mere format difference.
The argument can also be made that S.erato encourages spontaneity and playing to the crowd. I used to plan my sets out in more detail because I had to.. I knew I would only have access to the records I brought with me for the night. Now I generally plan out the first few records and freestyle the rest based on the crowd's reaction.
this is really the only thing that should be mentioned in this thread
half of you old fucks who posted in this thread sound like you would show up at a spot, be all like "this shit be jamming like a mufuckah." then after making the trek to the front to stare at the dj and trainspot be likg "OMG HE HAS A LAPTOP, THIS IS BULLSHIT" and nerd rage over it. g t f o o h w t b s
I seriously think s.erato has changed the game for good. It has given dj's the power to play a wider spectrum, and jump genres incredibly easily by sorting through bpm. Doing that before would require dedication of stickering your records, marking bpm's down.
no. for me it's exactly the opposite. all my bpms are still in my head, even in the s.erato era, because of all those years playing vinyl with no bpm counter, no labeled bpms, that is what you get when you play vinyl to start. even if it's pitch dark you just see your spines and regardless of genre you can hunt out everything that will mix with the track that's playing. now it's very easy. and that's fine. its just that if you have never been on a vinyl format it's likely that you just won't develop that added sense. s.erato makes it a more boring experience for DJ's because you don't start your night by sitting at your house looking through the crates and shelves, spending the time, building your set for the night from one record you pull and then pulling each one out one by one, building your vibe for the night, and being more present not to sound cliche but it's very true. that process of 'pulling' is a meditation for any dj who has done that, night upon night, year upon year. and that aspect is gone with s.erato, even with cd's. that meditation is gone, that process is no longer there. some people would say that is convenient, they can go from whatever they are doing to just putting their laptop bag over a shoulder and going to a gig. no thinking, super easy. sure some people build "crates" on s.erato for different gigs, different nights, but it's not the same. i have moved forward and will play on any format, but playing on vinyl, as many people have acknowledged in this thread, involves much more than just the mere format difference.
The argument can also be made that S.erato encourages spontaneity and playing to the crowd. I used to plan my sets out in more detail because I had to.. I knew I would only have access to the records I brought with me for the night. Now I generally plan out the first few records and freestyle the rest based on the crowd's reaction.
U cant "freestyle" w/ 4 crates of records?
I don't know about you but I sure as hell don't want to lug around 4 crates of vinyl to every gig. Before the Microwave era I would keep it at a crate per night, unless I was playing a crazy long set. Shit, what if you're flying to a gig? You have to be on some baller status to take 4 crates of records with you on every flight. Unless you're making multiple G's per gig, it's cost-prohibitive.
I???m 24 been djing for 4 years, I built my record collection up from scratch and I???ve just recently (2 months ago) stepped up and started using microwave.
Most DJs I know my age, have never owned vinyl, and there reasons are exactly those of the 17 year kid.
For me the positives of Microwave outweigh the negatives in the modern age
Microwave Positives - Save money. Great records aren???t available easily in Australia, especially disco and boogie, which is what I love to DJ. - Able to DJ different genres than before. Mp3s mean I can take more risks listening to/and owning new things - I can play the multitude of great remixes, edits and refixes that are available in digital only format. - I can manipulate and blend songs more effectively now with loop functions, cue points etc. making my sets more dynamic. - I can still play vinyl, and I can keep my turntables. Microwave is preventing turntables from becoming redundant in clubs IN A DITIGAL AGE. - Access to more things. I play across a lot of genres and a lot of bpms in one night 75-133. There is only so much I can carry and fit in the DJ booth where I play. Microwave gives me more flexibility.
Microwave Negatives - Not owning what I play. There is something more satisfying about owning a record and playing it out. Even it if it is common track that everybody knows it is still your copy. - Variable Sound quality, just playing 320kb mp3s doesn't = consistency in levels.
The above con is why I think it???s a shame that young kids aren???t embracing vinyl and choosing mp3 only. It???s not the be all and end all, but it???s a shame, vinyl does hold many wonders and growing your collection is a great thing and I wouldn???t be the DJ I am if I didn???t do that.
The plus side about Microwave though, is the kid is still using turntables, and when he is old enough to afford to dig I???m sure he will.
Microwave Negatives - Not owning what I play. There is something more satisfying about owning a record and playing it out. Even it if it is common track that everybody knows it is still your copy. - Variable Sound quaulity, just playing 320kb mp3s doesn't = consistency in levels.
These points are negated if you still dig for records and rip to a high quality WAV (as any DJ worth their salt will do). There's still plenty of shit out there you can't get on MP3 without ripping it yourself.
Who among you (A) began collecting records to DJ with,
and who (B)started to DJ because they just had to do something with their record collection?
B for me. And it colors almost everything I do as a DJ. I personally don't use Microwave, but it seems to me to be a beautiful merging of technology, as you still use the turntable and the dummy vinyl.
I recently had the displeasure of djing a club that had 2 CDJs and 1 turntable. It was so boring 'spinning' mainly cds (full disclosure-my optimal set up is having all vinyl with a CDJ and a grip of CDs for back up, extra stock, whatever), the next week I brought all vinyl and my own turntable. Felt much better.
Another question I often raise with myself is do I feel comfortable, playing mp3s of records I don???t own in mixes, especially those that consist of past genres only?
At the moment I don???t feel comfortable, for example, making a pure boogie mix that doesn???t contain OGs. But then again, in the past, when I have made a mix like that, it may have had some re-issues or some songs from comps in it, and is that really any different?
Its just seems being an OG only vinyl head is so very limiting. It???s enjoyable and nice to own, and play out OGs, but I can???t be the DJ I want to be by sticking so strictly to ???the rules???
By the way I am no way anti-vinyl and I hold DJs who play only vinyl in high regard, they are always a pleasure to go and see. Only two months ago, I was only vinyl too, the difference is I am just pro-flexibilty.
What if, I know it couldn't ever happen(ed). What if s er ato was created before vinyl in some mystical earthlike universe? We be sayin' " damn, I can actually hold the music, I actually have to buy it, and it comes in a sleeve?"
I seriously think s.erato has changed the game for good. It has given dj's the power to play a wider spectrum, and jump genres incredibly easily by sorting through bpm. Doing that before would require dedication of stickering your records, marking bpm's down.
no. for me it's exactly the opposite. all my bpms are still in my head, even in the s.erato era, because of all those years playing vinyl with no bpm counter, no labeled bpms, that is what you get when you play vinyl to start. even if it's pitch dark you just see your spines and regardless of genre you can hunt out everything that will mix with the track that's playing. now it's very easy. and that's fine. its just that if you have never been on a vinyl format it's likely that you just won't develop that added sense. s.erato makes it a more boring experience for DJ's because you don't start your night by sitting at your house looking through the crates and shelves, spending the time, building your set for the night from one record you pull and then pulling each one out one by one, building your vibe for the night, and being more present not to sound cliche but it's very true. that process of 'pulling' is a meditation for any dj who has done that, night upon night, year upon year. and that aspect is gone with s.erato, even with cd's. that meditation is gone, that process is no longer there. some people would say that is convenient, they can go from whatever they are doing to just putting their laptop bag over a shoulder and going to a gig. no thinking, super easy. sure some people build "crates" on s.erato for different gigs, different nights, but it's not the same. i have moved forward and will play on any format, but playing on vinyl, as many people have acknowledged in this thread, involves much more than just the mere format difference.
The argument can also be made that S.erato encourages spontaneity and playing to the crowd. I used to plan my sets out in more detail because I had to.. I knew I would only have access to the records I brought with me for the night. Now I generally plan out the first few records and freestyle the rest based on the crowd's reaction.
U cant "freestyle" w/ 4 crates of records?
I don't know about you but I sure as hell don't want to lug around 4 crates of vinyl to every gig. Before the Microwave era I would keep it at a crate per night, unless I was playing a crazy long set. Shit, what if you're flying to a gig? You have to be on some baller status to take 4 crates of records with you on every flight. Unless you're making multiple G's per gig, it's cost-prohibitive.
No doubt. Im just questioning the idea that having 20,000 songs at your disposal creates more "improvisation/freestyle" than 300 songs.
Ur only rockin for the most 5-7 hours.
Im all for tech, but sometimes having more options isnt healthy....IMO.
Of course, through repetition, one can develop a technique, whether its from playing your wax at home and knowing where the grooves are, or scrolling thru your computer and know where certain songs are.
I have to say, this thread is actually pretty awesome on multiple levels.
Few thoughts:
1) Trying to stick up for someone by chastising for "picking on a girl" sounds mad condescending. What is this, 1954? I don't know AKD personally, but I get the sense that A) she's far from a "girl" and B) she's more than capable of defending herself against herbs.
2) AKD: I hear what you're saying but DJing has always been an evolutionary craft. It's unrealistic - and some might say, undesirable - to want to fix it into one particular era/aesthetic rather than embracing how styles change. That's not to say we can't mourn what we lose but it's also the case - as this thread has suggested over and over - that we gain things in that process too. So you're right - I don't sit at home and create a digital crate the same way I used to pull records but when I'm at my party, I am thinking about mixing in a new way because of Microwave. I'm ok with that trade-off, especially since I still can go through the process of pulling records when the occasion calls for it. Microwave doesn't destroy that possibility, it merely minimizes the need to do it as often.
3) I think Kon nailed it when he said:
before all of this non sense, it was all about og vs bootleg or comp. now its just s.erato vs vinyl.
DJ history is one long series of constant shifts in styles and in every era, the debates around authenticity are ever-present even if the standards shift. There was never and never will be a time when DJs don't find new ways to sub-divide themselves on the basis of "who's real vs. who's not". That's why I have a hard time taking debates around the merits of digital DJing as anything beyond just this generation's line in the sand. In five years, it will probably be something else that we find a way to argue over and the Microwave/vinyl debate will seem as quaint as arguing rotary vs. crossfader mixers (now watch 5 pages on DJs arguing this very point).
You'll have to forgive me because I've been reading a lot about arbitrary social rules (Durkheim) and the sociology of taste (Bourdieu) of late and I see a lot of those ideas being bandied about in this debate. It's not like the arguments aren't "real" - passions seem genuine - but my point is that these rules are arbitrary and fleeting. It's less about what rules we agree to and more about the desire to find ways to separating into camps and disparaging those who don't fit into our camp. I don't even necessarily mean this in a bad way (Durkheim, for example, argues that even the most functional, idealized society would find a way to create deviance and crime as a way to have something to react to and thus, build social bonds). So what we're seeing here are just the various Soulstrut Tribes marking their territory (perhaps like cats, if you follow my meaning) and making very clear where they draw the line between fake and real.
I have to say, this thread is actually pretty awesome on multiple levels.
Few thoughts:
1) Trying to stick up for someone by chastising for "picking on a girl" sounds mad condescending. What is this, 1954? I don't know AKD personally, but I get the sense that A) she's far from a "girl" and B) she's more than capable of defending herself against herbs.
2) AKD: I hear what you're saying but DJing has always been an evolutionary craft. It's unrealistic - and some might say, undesirable - to want to fix it into one particular era/aesthetic rather than embracing how styles change. That's not to say we can't mourn what we lose but it's also the case - as this thread has suggested over and over - that we gain things in that process too. So you're right - I don't sit at home and create a digital crate the same way I used to pull records but when I'm at my party, I am thinking about mixing in a new way because of Microwave. I'm ok with that trade-off, especially since I still can go through the process of pulling records when the occasion calls for it. Microwave doesn't destroy that possibility, it merely minimizes the need to do it as often.
3) I think Kon nailed it when he said:
before all of this non sense, it was all about og vs bootleg or comp. now its just s.erato vs vinyl.
DJ history is one long series of constant shifts in styles and in every era, the debates around authenticity are ever-present even if the standards shift. There was never and never will be a time when DJs don't find new ways to sub-divide themselves on the basis of "who's real vs. who's not". That's why I have a hard time taking debates around the merits of digital DJing as anything beyond just this generation's line in the sand. In five years, it will probably be something else that we find a way to argue over and the Microwave/vinyl debate will seem as quaint as arguing rotary vs. crossfader mixers (now watch 5 pages on DJs arguing this very point).
You'll have to forgive me because I've been reading a lot about arbitrary social rules (Durkheim) and the sociology of taste (Bourdieu) of late and I see a lot of those ideas being bandied about in this debate. It's not like the arguments aren't "real" - passions seem genuine - but my point is that these rules are arbitrary and fleeting. It's less about what rules we agree to and more about the desire to find ways to separating into camps and disparaging those who don't fit into our camp. I don't even necessarily mean this in a bad way (Durkheim, for example, argues that even the most functional, idealized society would find a way to create deviance and crime as a way to have something to react to and thus, build social bonds). So what we're seeing here are just the various Soulstrut Tribes marking their territory (perhaps like cats, if you follow my meaning) and making very clear where they draw the line between fake and real.
no dis on your post by the way - I said it earlier, too, I think this is a great thread. And I agree with what you've written up here.
Comments
the only cure would be for you to write a few more paragraphs on the zen of "placing", where you take the records that have been "pulled" into the crates that you will be using that night.
That's awesome. Picking on a girl. And over some semantic bs. Don't you have some briefs to write?
You'd be surprised.
He may have to un-wad them first.
oh lord.
i beg your pardon?
that's ok i probably would write some zen shit about my records, not about their placement though, but maybe i would, for real. kvh is right!
i think we are just real different people.
especially if he writes briefs rather than rambling zen diatribes
Well said.
The argument can also be made that S.erato encourages spontaneity and playing to the crowd. I used to plan my sets out in more detail because I had to.. I knew I would only have access to the records I brought with me for the night. Now I generally plan out the first few records and freestyle the rest based on the crowd's reaction.
U cant "freestyle" w/ 4 crates of records?
half of you old fucks who posted in this thread sound like you would show up at a spot, be all like "this shit be jamming like a mufuckah." then after making the trek to the front to stare at the dj and trainspot be likg "OMG HE HAS A LAPTOP, THIS IS BULLSHIT" and nerd rage over it. g t f o o h w t b s
I don't know about you but I sure as hell don't want to lug around 4 crates of vinyl to every gig. Before the Microwave era I would keep it at a crate per night, unless I was playing a crazy long set. Shit, what if you're flying to a gig? You have to be on some baller status to take 4 crates of records with you on every flight. Unless you're making multiple G's per gig, it's cost-prohibitive.
Most DJs I know my age, have never owned vinyl, and there reasons are exactly those of the 17 year kid.
For me the positives of Microwave outweigh the negatives in the modern age
Microwave Positives
- Save money. Great records aren???t available easily in Australia, especially disco and boogie, which is what I love to DJ.
- Able to DJ different genres than before. Mp3s mean I can take more risks listening to/and owning new things
- I can play the multitude of great remixes, edits and refixes that are available in digital only format.
- I can manipulate and blend songs more effectively now with loop functions, cue points etc. making my sets more dynamic.
- I can still play vinyl, and I can keep my turntables. Microwave is preventing turntables from becoming redundant in clubs IN A DITIGAL AGE.
- Access to more things. I play across a lot of genres and a lot of bpms in one night 75-133. There is only so much I can carry and fit in the DJ booth where I play. Microwave gives me more flexibility.
Microwave Negatives
- Not owning what I play. There is something more satisfying about owning a record and playing it out. Even it if it is common track that everybody knows it is still your copy.
- Variable Sound quality, just playing 320kb mp3s doesn't = consistency in levels.
The above con is why I think it???s a shame that young kids aren???t embracing vinyl and choosing mp3 only. It???s not the be all and end all, but it???s a shame, vinyl does hold many wonders and growing your collection is a great thing and I wouldn???t be the DJ I am if I didn???t do that.
The plus side about Microwave though, is the kid is still using turntables, and when he is old enough to afford to dig I???m sure he will.
These points are negated if you still dig for records and rip to a high quality WAV (as any DJ worth their salt will do). There's still plenty of shit out there you can't get on MP3 without ripping it yourself.
huh?
There are songs that only exist in MP3 format. This is a fact.
Who among you (A) began collecting records to DJ with,
and who (B)started to DJ because they just had to do something with their record collection?
B for me. And it colors almost everything I do as a DJ. I personally don't use Microwave, but it seems to me to be a beautiful merging of technology, as you still use the turntable and the dummy vinyl.
I recently had the displeasure of djing a club that had 2 CDJs and 1 turntable. It was so boring 'spinning' mainly cds (full disclosure-my optimal set up is having all vinyl with a CDJ and a grip of CDs for back up, extra stock, whatever), the next week I brought all vinyl and my own turntable. Felt much better.
At the moment I don???t feel comfortable, for example, making a pure boogie mix that doesn???t contain OGs. But then again, in the past, when I have made a mix like that, it may have had some re-issues or some songs from comps in it, and is that really any different?
Its just seems being an OG only vinyl head is so very limiting. It???s enjoyable and nice to own, and play out OGs, but I can???t be the DJ I want to be by sticking so strictly to ???the rules???
By the way I am no way anti-vinyl and I hold DJs who play only vinyl in high regard, they are always a pleasure to go and see. Only two months ago, I was only vinyl too, the difference is I am just pro-flexibilty.
True,
I suppose mean that on average vinyl is more reliable in regards to sound quality.
No doubt. Im just questioning the idea that having 20,000 songs at your disposal creates more "improvisation/freestyle" than 300 songs.
Ur only rockin for the most 5-7 hours.
Im all for tech, but sometimes having more options isnt healthy....IMO.
Of course, through repetition, one can develop a technique, whether its from playing your wax at home and knowing where the grooves are, or scrolling thru your computer and know where certain songs are.
blah..blah
lol
Few thoughts:
1) Trying to stick up for someone by chastising for "picking on a girl" sounds mad condescending. What is this, 1954? I don't know AKD personally, but I get the sense that A) she's far from a "girl" and B) she's more than capable of defending herself against herbs.
2) AKD: I hear what you're saying but DJing has always been an evolutionary craft. It's unrealistic - and some might say, undesirable - to want to fix it into one particular era/aesthetic rather than embracing how styles change. That's not to say we can't mourn what we lose but it's also the case - as this thread has suggested over and over - that we gain things in that process too. So you're right - I don't sit at home and create a digital crate the same way I used to pull records but when I'm at my party, I am thinking about mixing in a new way because of Microwave. I'm ok with that trade-off, especially since I still can go through the process of pulling records when the occasion calls for it. Microwave doesn't destroy that possibility, it merely minimizes the need to do it as often.
3) I think Kon nailed it when he said:
DJ history is one long series of constant shifts in styles and in every era, the debates around authenticity are ever-present even if the standards shift. There was never and never will be a time when DJs don't find new ways to sub-divide themselves on the basis of "who's real vs. who's not". That's why I have a hard time taking debates around the merits of digital DJing as anything beyond just this generation's line in the sand. In five years, it will probably be something else that we find a way to argue over and the Microwave/vinyl debate will seem as quaint as arguing rotary vs. crossfader mixers (now watch 5 pages on DJs arguing this very point).
You'll have to forgive me because I've been reading a lot about arbitrary social rules (Durkheim) and the sociology of taste (Bourdieu) of late and I see a lot of those ideas being bandied about in this debate. It's not like the arguments aren't "real" - passions seem genuine - but my point is that these rules are arbitrary and fleeting. It's less about what rules we agree to and more about the desire to find ways to separating into camps and disparaging those who don't fit into our camp. I don't even necessarily mean this in a bad way (Durkheim, for example, argues that even the most functional, idealized society would find a way to create deviance and crime as a way to have something to react to and thus, build social bonds). So what we're seeing here are just the various Soulstrut Tribes marking their territory (perhaps like cats, if you follow my meaning) and making very clear where they draw the line between fake and real.
pants or no pants?
WHICH ONE IS THE REAL
no dis on your post by the way - I said it earlier, too, I think this is a great thread. And I agree with what you've written up here.
Well, I guess no pants would make the aforementioned "scratching with your nutsack" easier to accomplish.
Me too, some good discussion up in here.