black on both sides is one of hip hop's top ten records
yeah, i don't see this one. i mean "Habitat" is my fuckin joint and May-December is cool... Ms. Fat Booty can still work (sometimes). and I just picked up "Umi Says" because its got a really nice instrumental.
not trying to argue here, just curious...what are some indies that did affect rap as a whole? Fondle 'Em?
Def Jam
No Limit--pretty much every rap label of note (a number that does not include Rawkus) at least started out independent.
A lot of dudes on SoulStrut won't acknowledge the independence of an operation that is either too successful or that achieved its success almost entirely with the support of black folks, though.
The only thing I would change with the above is that they didn't achieve that level of success until white people accepted the music... They did well in the hood, but to get to that next level, it requires the distor deals, the spins, and the suburban youths to actually accept it... No Limit and Cash Moneya re classic cases of this.
not trying to argue here, just curious...what are some indies that did affect rap as a whole? Fondle 'Em?
Def Jam
No Limit--pretty much every rap label of note (a number that does not include Rawkus) at least started out independent.
A lot of dudes on SoulStrut won't acknowledge the independence of an operation that is either too successful or that achieved its success almost entirely with the support of black folks, though.
The only thing I would change with the above is that they didn't achieve that level of success until white people accepted the music... They did well in the hood, but to get to that next level, it requires the distor deals, the spins, and the suburban youths to actually accept it... No Limit and Cash Moneya re classic cases of this.
Well, that's certainly true--you can never reach platinum status without interesting white people in your music, but I wasn't necessarily referring to No Limit with that statement. However, it does hold true for No Limit to the extent that that P was able to put himself in a position to ultimately reach white folks through the efforts and support of black folks.
I just think that a lot of people who trumpet "independence" as a sort of end-all-be-all value--who are almost invariably white--are threatened by people doing the independent thing in a way that doesn't heavily rely on the contributions of white people, and tend to forget entirely about the Suave Houses and such when discussing independent success in rap.
Vitamin, I don't think anybody in this thread besides you is trying to claim that any of that sh!t is classic.
Broad assertions like "But black on both sides is one of hip hop's top ten records and sound bombing is clearly the best mix tape ever committed to commercial distribution" don't do anything to further your argument--they just establish that you don't know much about rap.
I also think you don't know what the word "backpacker" means because all of the artists you're holding up as examples of ultimate backpackism, are really much more on the headwraps-n-incense tip, which is something else entirely.
Faux,
And what's your argument" You're wrong Vitamin, and I'm right. In the late nineties after Poc and Biggie are slain senselessly, Rawkus emerged as an intelligent counterweight to a nihilistic trend in the industry to celebrate senseless violence. It was not all hippy dippy and lots of white college kids did like it. To be honest I don't know what the street crowd reaction was to Rawkus. I do know that at least in DC and Philly "Simon Says" was a huge club hit and got mad radio play. The lyrical structure, the content and the overall aesthetic of the best of Rawkus endures. Mater P or all the post-Biggie Puffiness is unlistenable today. How much late 90s hip hop has endured? Jay Z? Sure. Ghostface? definitely. Who else? Nas and Oochi Walli, DMX and the Rough Ryders? Come on. Well the first Dark Star record is hot still. Listen to Thieves in the Night and tell me you are not blown away by their lyrics. And you can definitely see how tracks like that influenced Jadakiss' Why last year.
Vitamin
I don't have to have a position because I'm not the one selling anything here.
But since you asked, here it is: Rawkus was a cute little blip in hip-hop history that failed to connect with much of anybody besides white college kids and also failed to produce any significant music, although a few of their releases are enjoyable for what they are.
And really: "Thieves in the Night" begat "Why"?
I don't know whether to attack that one the basis of its attenuated unsubstantiable logic or on the basis of the fact that "Why" was the worst and most pandering single 'Kiss has ever attached his name to (and I'm including that recent terd with Mariah Cary in that number)
Dolo Records anyone? i liked the natural elements "bust mine" b/w "paper chase", i really liked those cats flow, and i thought charlemagne was one helluva producer...
Vitamin, I don't think anybody in this thread besides you is trying to claim that any of that sh!t is classic.
Broad assertions like "But black on both sides is one of hip hop's top ten records and sound bombing is clearly the best mix tape ever committed to commercial distribution" don't do anything to further your argument--they just establish that you don't know much about rap.
I also think you don't know what the word "backpacker" means because all of the artists you're holding up as examples of ultimate backpackism, are really much more on the headwraps-n-incense tip, which is something else entirely.
Faux,
And what's your argument" You're wrong Vitamin, and I'm right. In the late nineties after Poc and Biggie are slain senselessly, Rawkus emerged as an intelligent counterweight to a nihilistic trend in the industry to celebrate senseless violence. It was not all hippy dippy and lots of white college kids did like it. To be honest I don't know what the street crowd reaction was to Rawkus. I do know that at least in DC and Philly "Simon Says" was a huge club hit and got mad radio play. The lyrical structure, the content and the overall aesthetic of the best of Rawkus endures. Mater P or all the post-Biggie Puffiness is unlistenable today. How much late 90s hip hop has endured? Jay Z? Sure. Ghostface? definitely. Who else? Nas and Oochi Walli, DMX and the Rough Ryders? Come on. Well the first Dark Star record is hot still. Listen to Thieves in the Night and tell me you are not blown away by their lyrics. And you can definitely see how tracks like that influenced Jadakiss' Why last year.
Vitamin
I don't have to have a position because I'm not the one selling anything here.
But since you asked, here it is: Rawkus was a cute little blip in hip-hop history that failed to connect with much of anybody besides white college kids and also failed to produce any significant music, although a few of their releases are enjoyable for what they are.
And really: "Thieves in the Night" begat "Why"?
I don't know whether to attack that one the basis of its attenuated unsubstantiable logic or on the basis of the fact that "Why" was the worst and most pandering single 'Kiss has ever attached his name to (and I'm including that recent terd with Mariah Cary in that number)
I think Why? was one of the best joints Jada came out with, particularly the remix. But that's the difference between you and me. I think hip hop can and should be a vehicle to say something about many different things from many different perspectives. You would rather the rappers not go there. Rawkus went there, like Common and the roots and a lot of groups you denigrate as nothing more than playlist fodder for the Ft green trustafarian. I think in 20 years though a lot of that shit is going to endure. I don't like all of it, and I still like ignorant gangster rap too. But a song like Thieves in the Night or Hip Hop by Mos are masterpieces, they transcend rap and stand out as great poetry. They are raising issues about the politics of the very industry they are participating in. In one voice they are capturing numerous perspectives and to me that is genius. Just because it was not loved at the time on Hot 97 does not mean it's marginal. Charlie Parker was not popular when he recorded either, nor was Gil Scott Heron.
Vitamin, I don't think anybody in this thread besides you is trying to claim that any of that sh!t is classic.
Broad assertions like "But black on both sides is one of hip hop's top ten records and sound bombing is clearly the best mix tape ever committed to commercial distribution" don't do anything to further your argument--they just establish that you don't know much about rap.
I also think you don't know what the word "backpacker" means because all of the artists you're holding up as examples of ultimate backpackism, are really much more on the headwraps-n-incense tip, which is something else entirely.
Faux,
And what's your argument" You're wrong Vitamin, and I'm right. In the late nineties after Poc and Biggie are slain senselessly, Rawkus emerged as an intelligent counterweight to a nihilistic trend in the industry to celebrate senseless violence. It was not all hippy dippy and lots of white college kids did like it. To be honest I don't know what the street crowd reaction was to Rawkus. I do know that at least in DC and Philly "Simon Says" was a huge club hit and got mad radio play. The lyrical structure, the content and the overall aesthetic of the best of Rawkus endures. Mater P or all the post-Biggie Puffiness is unlistenable today. How much late 90s hip hop has endured? Jay Z? Sure. Ghostface? definitely. Who else? Nas and Oochi Walli, DMX and the Rough Ryders? Come on. Well the first Dark Star record is hot still. Listen to Thieves in the Night and tell me you are not blown away by their lyrics. And you can definitely see how tracks like that influenced Jadakiss' Why last year.
Vitamin
I don't have to have a position because I'm not the one selling anything here.
But since you asked, here it is: Rawkus was a cute little blip in hip-hop history that failed to connect with much of anybody besides white college kids and also failed to produce any significant music, although a few of their releases are enjoyable for what they are.
And really: "Thieves in the Night" begat "Why"?
I don't know whether to attack that one the basis of its attenuated unsubstantiable logic or on the basis of the fact that "Why" was the worst and most pandering single 'Kiss has ever attached his name to (and I'm including that recent terd with Mariah Cary in that number)
I think Why? was one of the best joints Jada came out with, particularly the remix. But that's the difference between you and me. I think hip hop can and should be a vehicle to say something about many different things from many different perspectives. You would rather the rappers not go there. Rawkus went there, like Common and the roots and a lot of groups you denigrate as nothing more than playlist fodder for the Ft green trustafarian. I think in 20 years though a lot of that shit is going to endure. I don't like all of it, and I still like ignorant gangster rap too. But a song like Thieves in the Night or Hip Hop by Mos are masterpieces, they transcend rap and stand out as great poetry. They are raising issues about the politics of the very industry they are participating in. In one voice they are capturing numerous perspectives and to me that is genius. Just because it was not loved at the time on Hot 97 does not mean it's marginal. Charlie Parker was not popular when he recorded either, nor was Gil Scott Heron.
No, Vitamin, I'm not opposed to artists addressing "many different things from many different perspectives," but I am also unable to forget that rap is music, and when the aesthetic element is lacking I'm unable to bring myself to care about these "many different things". And honestly, dude, what's so varied about the Roots' subject matter? Thought is one of the most topically limited rappers that I've ever heard. Until recently, their albums consisted of fifteen cuts of Thought rapping about rapping, plus one relationship joint. Nobody's going to remember "Thieves in the Night" in twenty years because it never registered in the first place. And, while Charlie Parker may never have achieved mass popularity, he was certainly revered by the core jazz audience; Rawkus, by contrast, largely failed to connect with a core rap audience.
Actually Charlie Parker was revered by what became the core jazz audience, by the mainstream of jazz at the time which was big band music, he was either unknown or clowned. Your predecessors at downbeat panned his 78s for being unfocused and no sufficiently respectful of the tradition. At first only a few influential critics loiked bebop at all.
Dolo Records anyone? i liked the natural elements "bust mine" b/w "paper chase", i really liked those cats flow, and i thought charlemagne was one helluva producer...
Actually Charlie Parker was revered by what became the core jazz audience, by the mainstream of jazz at the time which was big band music, he was either unknown or clowned. Your predecessors at downbeat panned his 78s for being unfocused and no sufficiently respectful of the tradition. At first only a few influential critics loiked bebop at all.
Blah, blah, blah.
Do you really think that I am unaware of the skepticism with which many people initially greeted Parker and his contemporaries? And why do you think this matters? It is not as if Parker spent his entire creative life in obscurity--his genius was eventually pretty widely recognized. Rawkus, by contrast, came and went and the passage of time since then has only diminished their legacy/contribution. That's right, Vitamalt: eight years ago there were a lot more people that thought just like you, but these days you're a damn oddball.
Dolo Records anyone? i liked the natural elements "bust mine" b/w "paper chase", i really liked those cats flow, and i thought charlemagne was one helluva producer...
Vitamin, I don't think anybody in this thread besides you is trying to claim that any of that sh!t is classic.
Broad assertions like "But black on both sides is one of hip hop's top ten records and sound bombing is clearly the best mix tape ever committed to commercial distribution" don't do anything to further your argument--they just establish that you don't know much about rap.
And really: "Thieves in the Night" begat "Why"?
Vitamin dude, you are a revisionist historian and someone who clearly knows nothing about hip-hop. As the new director of business affairs/A&R at Rawkus, I look forward to putting out as much music you will hate as possible.
Dolo Records anyone? i liked the natural elements "bust mine" b/w "paper chase", i really liked those cats flow, and i thought charlemagne was one helluva producer...
hillfiguz changed the game, son
Embarassingly enough, I owned this record.
I never understood how they could release that "Up On Prospect" 12" with the off-beat Silver Convention loop
Dolo Records anyone? i liked the natural elements "bust mine" b/w "paper chase", i really liked those cats flow, and i thought charlemagne was one helluva producer...
hillfiguz changed the game, son
Embarassingly enough, I owned this record.
I never understood how they could release that "Up On Prospect" 12" with the off-beat Silver Convention loop
Vitamin dude, you are a revisionist historian and someone who clearly knows nothing about hip-hop. As the new director of business affairs/A&R at Rawkus, I look forward to putting out as much music you will hate as possible.
Stay clueless, Zvi
If you really are who you claim to be, then you are a numskull. Even if you don't love Rawkus as much as I do, you don't know the first thing about your job. Here is an internet forum discussing the relaunch of Rawkus and the one guy arguing about how the label is classic is put on blast by the label's director of business and A & R. To call you a fool is an insult to foolishness.
I do think they were a very important indie label in the game mind you...
Not tryin' to engage in semantic sophistry, but was Rawkus a true independent? Havin' seed $$$ and all from Rupert Murdoch?
The answer is not really.
And Vitamin, your conception of Rawkus is your own - not even the owners of the label have the level of delusion and pretension that you do regarding their venture. If you think that their so-called "classic" records helped them succeed as a business then you are more of a fool that you exhibit with these moronic posts. Rawkus wants to sell records, not be called "classic" by a beltway journalist with little association with - or knowledge of - hip-hop.
Vitamin dude, you are a revisionist historian and someone who clearly knows nothing about hip-hop. As the new director of business affairs/A&R at Rawkus, I look forward to putting out as much music you will hate as possible.
Stay clueless, Zvi
If you really are who you claim to be, then you are a numskull. Even if you don't love Rawkus as much as I do, you don't know the first thing about your job. Here is an internet forum discussing the relaunch of Rawkus and the one guy arguing about how the label is classic is put on blast by the label's director of business and A & R. To call you a fool is an insult to foolishness.
Nope, I'm a businessman and I think Rawkus is a great and viable brand name, that I plan on turning toward the future and using as a vehicle to put out good music. I said nothing negative about Rawkus, I said something negative about you. You know nothing about hip-hop and your perspective is so skewed as to be invalid.
Rawkus was a cute little blip in hip-hop history that failed to connect with much of anybody besides white college kids and also failed to produce any significant music, although a few of their releases are enjoyable for what they are.
I'm not going to agree with Vitamin, but I am going to disagree with failed to produce any significant music. The track "Respiration" still stands as one of my favorite hip hop tracks to this day.
Rawkus was a cute little blip in hip-hop history that failed to connect with much of anybody besides white college kids and also failed to produce any significant music, although a few of their releases are enjoyable for what they are.
I'm not going to agree with Vitamin, but I am going to disagree with failed to produce any significant music. The track "Respiration" still stands as one of my favorite hip hop tracks to this day.
- spidey
I like that track, too, but "one of my favorite hip hop tracks to this day" is not the same thing as "a track that impacted the larger hip-hop landscape".
"Good" and "significant" are two different things.
Comments
The only thing I would change with the above is that they didn't achieve that level of success until white people accepted the music... They did well in the hood, but to get to that next level, it requires the distor deals, the spins, and the suburban youths to actually accept it... No Limit and Cash Moneya re classic cases of this.
i like his older stuff (i need a copy of Universal Magnetic...was in the ol' stolen crate) but that Sex, Drugs & Money joint was not my thing.
Well, that's certainly true--you can never reach platinum status without interesting white people in your music, but I wasn't necessarily referring to No Limit with that statement. However, it does hold true for No Limit to the extent that that P was able to put himself in a position to ultimately reach white folks through the efforts and support of black folks.
I just think that a lot of people who trumpet "independence" as a sort of end-all-be-all value--who are almost invariably white--are threatened by people doing the independent thing in a way that doesn't heavily rely on the contributions of white people, and tend to forget entirely about the Suave Houses and such when discussing independent success in rap.
I don't have to have a position because I'm not the one selling anything here.
But since you asked, here it is: Rawkus was a cute little blip in hip-hop history that failed to connect with much of anybody besides white college kids and also failed to produce any significant music, although a few of their releases are enjoyable for what they are.
And really: "Thieves in the Night" begat "Why"?
I don't know whether to attack that one the basis of its attenuated unsubstantiable logic or on the basis of the fact that "Why" was the worst and most pandering single 'Kiss has ever attached his name to (and I'm including that recent terd with Mariah Cary in that number)
Al Garth needs to speak up on Rawkus
I think Why? was one of the best joints Jada came out with, particularly the remix. But that's the difference between you and me. I think hip hop can and should be a vehicle to say something about many different things from many different perspectives. You would rather the rappers not go there. Rawkus went there, like Common and the roots and a lot of groups you denigrate as nothing more than playlist fodder for the Ft green trustafarian. I think in 20 years though a lot of that shit is going to endure. I don't like all of it, and I still like ignorant gangster rap too. But a song like Thieves in the Night or Hip Hop by Mos are masterpieces, they transcend rap and stand out as great poetry. They are raising issues about the politics of the very industry they are participating in. In one voice they are capturing numerous perspectives and to me that is genius. Just because it was not loved at the time on Hot 97 does not mean it's marginal. Charlie Parker was not popular when he recorded either, nor was Gil Scott Heron.
No, Vitamin, I'm not opposed to artists addressing "many different things from many different perspectives," but I am also unable to forget that rap is music, and when the aesthetic element is lacking I'm unable to bring myself to care about these "many different things". And honestly, dude, what's so varied about the Roots' subject matter? Thought is one of the most topically limited rappers that I've ever heard. Until recently, their albums consisted of fifteen cuts of Thought rapping about rapping, plus one relationship joint. Nobody's going to remember "Thieves in the Night" in twenty years because it never registered in the first place. And, while Charlie Parker may never have achieved mass popularity, he was certainly revered by the core jazz audience; Rawkus, by contrast, largely failed to connect with a core rap audience.
Some of those old tracks were
i agree. and since we're on the subject, andre3000 is a horrible actor and a good rap dude.
Pretty lame as a Prince impersonator, though.
are you saying you OBJECTIFICATE?
Actually Charlie Parker was revered by what became the core jazz audience, by the mainstream of jazz at the time which was big band music, he was either unknown or clowned. Your predecessors at downbeat panned his 78s for being unfocused and no sufficiently respectful of the tradition. At first only a few influential critics loiked bebop at all.
hillfiguz changed the game, son
Blah, blah, blah.
Do you really think that I am unaware of the skepticism with which many people initially greeted Parker and his contemporaries? And why do you think this matters? It is not as if Parker spent his entire creative life in obscurity--his genius was eventually pretty widely recognized. Rawkus, by contrast, came and went and the passage of time since then has only diminished their legacy/contribution. That's right, Vitamalt: eight years ago there were a lot more people that thought just like you, but these days you're a damn oddball.
Embarassingly enough, I owned this record.
This has gotta be like finding out that the tooth fairy isn't real for Vitamin.
I never understood how they could release that "Up On Prospect" 12" with the off-beat Silver Convention loop
If you really are who you claim to be, then you are a numskull. Even if you don't love Rawkus as much as I do, you don't know the first thing about your job. Here is an internet forum discussing the relaunch of Rawkus and the one guy arguing about how the label is classic is put on blast by the label's director of business and A & R. To call you a fool is an insult to foolishness.
Not tryin' to engage in semantic sophistry, but was Rawkus a true independent? Havin' seed $$$ and all from Rupert Murdoch?
The answer is not really.
And Vitamin, your conception of Rawkus is your own - not even the owners of the label have the level of delusion and pretension that you do regarding their venture. If you think that their so-called "classic" records helped them succeed as a business then you are more of a fool that you exhibit with these moronic posts. Rawkus wants to sell records, not be called "classic" by a beltway journalist with little association with - or knowledge of - hip-hop.
Nope, I'm a businessman and I think Rawkus is a great and viable brand name, that I plan on turning toward the future and using as a vehicle to put out good music. I said nothing negative about Rawkus, I said something negative about you. You know nothing about hip-hop and your perspective is so skewed as to be invalid.
Got a location up for grabs here, people. Won't last long.
I'm not going to agree with Vitamin, but I am going to disagree with failed to produce any significant music. The track "Respiration" still stands as one of my favorite hip hop tracks to this day.
- spidey
No joke.
I had to leave.
I like that track, too, but "one of my favorite hip hop tracks to this day" is not the same thing as "a track that impacted the larger hip-hop landscape".
"Good" and "significant" are two different things.