Question for the gays: Why not focus your attention on civil unions? The disparity between the high public support for civil unions and low public support for gay marriage suggests to me that people resent the idea of the government appropriating a religious institution for its own purposes, not that they resent gays enjoying the same legal rights*b, 21b, 21*Of course when it comes to the special set of government privileges and obligations packaged up as 'marriage' then rights don't really come into the picture. I use the rights phraseology to ensure I am understood, not because I believe that gays, or anyone else, has a legal right to what the government calls marriage.
Dolo,b, 21b, 21There is no requirement for being gay to answer your question.b, 21b, 21Simple answer: Separate but equal is neither.b, 21b, 21Longer answer: b, 21b, 211) Marriage is a secular institution in the US and has been so for a long time. You can be married by a judge or a ship Captain for example. We have intertwined secular privileges with a supposedly sacred one. So, if you are willing to decouple government privileges from marriage and make it just a "church" matter and the government blesses "civil unions" for all, then I am all for them. Otherwise, excluding a group of people from the rights and privileges of our government based upon a religious belief is a violation of church and state, not to mention a blight upon civil rights. b, 21b, 212) Lets take your assumption that marriage is a religious institution. If the Unitarians decide to marry gay couples are you saying that some other church can say no? Are you not interfering with a groups right to practice their religion? Its a slippery slope.b, 21b, 213) I agree with whatever comedian that said, "I think gays have every right to be as miserable as straight people, let them get married."
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 213) I agree with whatever comedian that said, "I think gays have every right to be as miserable as straight people, let them get married." b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21haha. The Onion had one of those fake man-on-the-street joints about gay marriage a long time ago and one head said, "First the military and now marriage? Why do gays want in on our worst institutions?"
Yeah if Joe Sixpack and Joe the Plumber want to get married, it's fine with me.b, 21b, 21Bay Area heads - there's a rally this Saturday (aka tomorrow) in SF in front of City Hallb, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21more info here and flyers in pdf if you wanna get the word outb, 21http://protest8sf.wordpress.com//a1
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Question for the gays: Why not focus your attention on civil unions? The disparity between the high public support for civil unions and low public support for gay marriage suggests to me that people resent the idea of the government appropriating a religious institution for its own purposes, not that they resent gays enjoying the same legal rights*b, 21b, 21*Of course when it comes to the special set of government privileges and obligations packaged up as 'marriage' then rights don't really come into the picture. I use the rights phraseology to ensure I am understood, not because I believe that gays, or anyone else, has a legal right to what the government calls marriage. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21This is one of the non-intelligent arguments; marriage is a religious institution. b, 21b, 21No. It is a civil institution.b, 21b, 21Some churches today choose to preform same sex marriages, others choose not to. b, 21b, 21That would not change.b, 21b, 21Non-intelligent argument #2; civil unions. b, 21b, 21Only someone who still believes in segregation could come up with this. b, 21b, 21Either the union has all the rights of marriage, and thus is marriage, or some rights are withheld and thus needs to be called something different (like civil union).
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21the idea that we should "move past it" makes no sense b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21"Move on" doesn't necessarily mean leave it alone ...it also suggests pursuing another resolution ....b, 21b, 21h, 21 b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Ah, I see. Gotcha.b, 21b, 21At this point, I think the "other" resolution seems to be momentum towards another state initiative (ah, California, such are the wonders of your democratic system), this time to legalize gay marriage. b, 21b, 21I wonder how long this can ping-pong back and forth. At some point, do you just wait until the opposition gets tired? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21Bottom line is it shouldn't have been on the ballot in the first place....I'm not sure what legal action can be taken in that regard but the fight belongs in the courts and not in front of churches and in the streets... b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Right. b, 21b, 21When I said this will be decided in the courts I didn't mean prop 8. I meant the national issue of same sex marriage. b, 21b, 21It will be decided by the supreme court. b, 21b, 21It will take about 10 years.b, 21b, 21Same sex marriage will be found to be constitutional. b, 21b, 21Until then, competing ballot measures and protests will keep the issue percolating.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21its hilariously ironic that the church that is imfamous for polygamy is defending "traditional" marriage. Overcompensate much? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21An argument against same sex marriage is that it will lead to the legalization of polygamy. Just sayin.b, 21b, 21BTW, I believe that argument is true and that there is no reason why consenting adults shouldn't be able to marry as many people as they like.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21its hilariously ironic that the church that is imfamous for polygamy is defending "traditional" marriage. Overcompensate much? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21An argument against same sex marriage is that it will lead to the legalization of polygamy. Just sayin.b, 21b, 21BTW, I believe that argument is true and that there is no reason why consenting adults shouldn't be able to marry as many people as they like. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21The problem is that a lot of polygamists are on welfare. The more wives they have, the bigger checks they get.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21its hilariously ironic that the church that is imfamous for polygamy is defending "traditional" marriage. Overcompensate much? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21An argument against same sex marriage is that it will lead to the legalization of polygamy. Just sayin.b, 21b, 21BTW, I believe that argument is true and that there is no reason why consenting adults shouldn't be able to marry as many people as they like. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21The problem is that a lot of polygamists are on welfare. The more wives they have, the bigger checks they get. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Most modern day [USA] polygamist in the news are child molesters involved in forced marriages. b, 21b, 21Welfare scams are the least of their crimes.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21its hilariously ironic that the church that is imfamous for polygamy is defending "traditional" marriage. Overcompensate much? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21An argument against same sex marriage is that it will lead to the legalization of polygamy. Just sayin.b, 21b, 21BTW, I believe that argument is true and that there is no reason why consenting adults shouldn't be able to marry as many people as they like. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21The problem is that a lot of polygamists are on welfare. The more wives they have, the bigger checks they get. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Most modern day [USA] polygamist in the news are child molesters involved in forced marriages. b, 21b, 21Welfare scams are the least of their crimes. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21It's all part of the package, Lazer.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Arizona: If you are 16 or 17 years old, you must have the notarized consent of your parents or legal guardian. If you are under 16, you must have the notarized consent of your parents or legal guardian as well as a court order. b, 21b, 21Utah: The law states that marriage at the age of 18 years and above does not require parental consent. For those aged 16-17, parental consent is necessary. For those 15 years old, the following requirements must be met: Parental consent must be obtained. Approval from Juvenile Court is necessary. The court must conclude that the marriage is voluntary and in the best interests of the minor. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21Seems like welfare scams are the only crime they've been able to use to effectively break up polygamists. b, 21b, 21This is a whole nother thread.
BTW Mormons gave up polygamy on earth over a hundred years ago, so that's a week argument to say they are hypocritical on the marriage issue. In heaven is another story.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21its hilariously ironic that the church that is imfamous for polygamy is defending "traditional" marriage. Overcompensate much? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21An argument against same sex marriage is that it will lead to the legalization of polygamy. Just sayin.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21It was one of the early talking points and a thoroughly weak one.b, 21b, 21The issue here isn't over what forms of marriage resemble one another. The issue is what rational reasons can you give for banning either practice. Polygamy is seen as exploitative - both of women and underaged girls. Queer marriage isn't. You can make a case for queer marriage being harmful but you can't make the case that all alternative forms of marriage besides heterosexual marriage are the same. Logically, it's a complete fallacy.
On civil unions: b, 21My (straight) brother's wife had a blood clot in her brain a month before their wedding (she's fine now). In he hospital he was treated like a "fiancee", in other words, like "nothing". It was next to impossible for him to get any information, answers, or attention from the hospital staff, because he was a month shy of being her husband.b, 21b, 21The words "She's my wife" or "He's my husband" are the only words that will get you respect in that situation, and civil unions do not provide that.
That may be true but an engagement is not the same thing as a civil union. Civil unions come with actual legal rights - an engagement comes with none of those. I'm not saying civil unions are the same as marriage - they're not - but what you're comparing actually are legally very different
Sure they're legally very different but my point was that the trouble my brother had getting anyone to listen to him would be equal to the trouble someone with a civil union would have getting anyone to go through his/her legal documents proving he/she has rights. b, 21After a long struggle, he was finally able to get some attention, as opposed to if they were married, there would have been no question.
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