Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21your posting in this thread is very oblique. are u trying to bait ppl into arguing or are you trying to make some point here? either way you're not being a v effective communicator b, 21b, 21h, 21
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21your posting in this thread is very oblique. are u trying to bait ppl into arguing or are you trying to make some point here? either way you're not being a v effective communicator b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21the term for what Ed is doing is "beating around the bush." everyone is talking about how fucked up Prop 8 is, while Ed is suggesting that the issue is not Prop 8, but the debate surrounding Prop 8 -- while at the same time suggesting that he doesn't really think Prop 8 is fucked up at all, but not coming out and saying as much.b, 21b, 21like I said, I would love to hear an intelligent argument for Prop 8 (though I doubt one exists), but at the same time reject the idea that Ed has to own up to how he voted (though for his sake if he doesn't want to own up he should fish or cut bait, i.e. make whatever other point he has or stop posting in this thread).
Here is the intelligent argument for:b, 211) Traditionally marriage has always been one man and one woman. Prop 8 simply makes law what has traditionally always been true. b, 21b, 212) Studies have shown that children do best when raised with a mother and father. b, 21b, 213) To legalize gay marriage would say to our children a lifestyle that society finds abhorrent is ok. b, 21b, 214) Gays are ok as hairdressers but I wouldn't want my daughter marrying one. b, 21b, 215) Do we really want to encourage people to be like Lindsay Lohan and Senator Craig?b, 21b, 216) God said it, I believe it, that ends it. b, 21b, 21The first 3 represent intelligent, if wrong arguments. b, 21The last 3 are other arguments I thought of while typing. b, 21The last 3 represent the intelligence level of those making the first 3. b, 21You guys lived through this campaign, you no doubt heard better arguments than these.
yeah i dont care how ed voted - like i said - but if hes gonna come in here being all "i'm not saying, i'm just saying..." he should try to make his point a little more clear
i think a big reason for why it passed was because gay culture is very insular. i mean, there is a certain acceptance for one that is gay but i feel the current feeling toward someones sexual preference is not unlike the military's mode of "dont ask dont tell". and as liberal as everyone might think they are, it seems apparent that they dont really want to know the details. and gay rights folks are very sensitive to this fact. i mean, there is still a lot of coding that goes on in that culture that most of us arent even privy to. and like i said, it seems thats how califoofians want to keep it.b, 21b, 21its pretty evident even in the way the battle was fought. gay rights advocates made it very clear that they were gon fight a clean fight and not resort to any kind of "dirty" politicking and name calling. whereas proponents of the prop 8 thing preyed on this fact. the fact that there is still a lot of mystery and misunderstanding as to what exactly happens in weho or castro or whatevers. me personally, i love the nasty shit in any culture. i wan know it all. nothing is too gross for me! img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21 but i seriously doubt thats how the rest of the state flies them flags. anyways, what im saying is, fear is how people voted. and fear wins elections!
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21i think a big reason for why it passed was because gay culture is very insular. i mean, there is a certain acceptance for one that is gay but i feel the current feeling toward someones sexual preference is not unlike the military's mode of "dont ask dont tell". and as liberal as everyone might think they are, it seems apparent that they dont really want to know the details. and gay rights folks are very sensitive to this fact. i mean, there is still a lot of coding that goes on in that culture that most of us arent even privy to. and like i said, it seems thats how califoofians want to keep it.b, 21b, 21its pretty evident even in the way the battle was fought. gay rights advocates made it very clear that they were gon fight a clean fight and not resort to any kind of "dirty" politicking and name calling. whereas proponents of the prop 8 thing preyed on this fact. the fact that there is still a lot of mystery and misunderstanding as to what exactly happens in weho or castro or whatevers. me personally, i love the nasty shit in any culture. i wan know it all. nothing is too gross for me! img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21 but i seriously doubt thats how the rest of the state flies them flags. anyways, what im saying is, fear is how people voted. and fear wins elections! b, 21b, 21h, 21
Prop 8 passed because you had a highly motivated, well-organized campaign to get it passed and even then, they still skated by on a 4 point win. That's five times SMALLER than Prop 22 in 2000. b, 21b, 21Give it about a year or two and I think there will be enough of a grassroots movement to legalize gay marriage in a state like California.b, 21b, 21AZ? Not so much.
Ten years it will be legal nation wide. b, 21b, 21The courts will decide.b, 21b, 21Every state is obligated to recognize a marriage license from another state.
oh, sorry professor. i'll be more clear. img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21because of history, gay communities functioned and flourished as an insular community. when a group seperates itself like that, it breeds fear. prop 8 folks took advantage of those fears.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Prop 8 passed because you had a highly motivated, well-organized campaign to get it passed and even then, they still skated by on a 4 point win. That's five times SMALLER than Prop 22 in 2000. b, 21b, 21Give it about a year or two and I think there will be enough of a grassroots movement to legalize gay marriage in a state like California.b, 21b, 21AZ? Not so much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cos3ve.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21I see it as more of a temporary setback than a defeat
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21yeah i dont care how ed voted - b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Stop saying it then...b, 21b, 21All kinda dumb and offensive shit has been said in this thread ...if dudes choose to get after me because they think my vote was yes then that's as hypocritical as it gets ....i'm not at all interested in why prop 8 passed or what someone elses vote was...i'm interested in resolutions....i can give you a million reasons why people voted yes but what will that accomplish ? ....At this point only two things matter to me.... Why was this on the ballot to begin with and how do we find common ground......Y'all can kiss my ass with all this "F*ck the mormons" .."catholics aint shit" ..."blacks are homophobes" bullshit.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21yeah i dont care how ed voted - b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Stop saying it then...b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21i didnt say shit about how you voted. i repeated that i didnt care because other people kept asking and i thought it was irrelevantb, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21All kinda dumb and offensive shit has been said in this thread ...if dudes choose to get after me because they think my vote was yes then that's as hypocritical as it gets ....i'm not at all interested in why prop 8 passed or what someone elses vote was...i'm interested in resolutions....i can give you a million reasons why people voted yes but what will that accomplish ? ....At this point only two things matter to me.... Why was this on the ballot to begin with and how do we find common ground......Y'all can kiss my ass with all this "F*ck the mormons" .."catholics aint shit" ..."blacks are homophobes" bullshit. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21uh, i agree that ppl getting mad at diff demographics like that is retarded but nah i didnt see ANY divisive bullshit from no-on-prop-8 ppl until after it had already passed. i dont apologize at all for people trying to make this into some racial thing esp when all evidence points to it being a generational issue above all, including w/in the black community. but your righteous poster routine on here is really corny - what was your point in trolling folks who recognize that prop 8 is bullshit?
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21oh, sorry professor. i'll be more clear. img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21because of history, gay communities functioned and flourished as an insular community. when a group seperates itself like that, it breeds fear. prop 8 folks took advantage of those fears. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I think you have this backwards: gays formed insular communities because of homophobia, not the other way around.
I'm really kind of blown away that Edpowers is taking the (no offense to Rich) "Rock-a-logic" route here, i.e. "both sides are equally valid and/or corrupt therefore, it all evens out." b, 21b, 21From my perspective, one side is valid. The other side is complete, utter. bigoted bullshit. I'm not suggesting Ed has to defend the latter but the idea that we should "move past it" makes no sense, least of all for people who think the passage of Prop 8 was a massive backwards step for basic social justice. b, 21b, 21And for the record, I DO care how people voted but I don't think anyone's under the obligation to share how they voted.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21i think a big reason for why it passed was because gay culture is very insular. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Shig: I'm not trying to come at you sideways here but dude, this is what you said. You didn't say WHY gay culture is insular, simply that it is. And furthermore, you're suggesting that straight people fear gays b/c they don't understand said insular culture and my point is no: they fear gays b/c they're gay. And gays formed an insular culture as a response to that fear.b, 21b, 21What am I getting twisted?
ok, lets split hairs! img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21i later said "because of history gay communities are insular" so as to clear up any streamofconsciousnesscornfusion for you. b, 21b, 21also, im not necessarily saying straight people fear gay people. im saying there are fears and suspicions involved when groups seperate themselves. im not displaying my opinions on the matter, im saying that when there is a group that is seperated, this suspicion and fear happens. and that prop 8 proponents used this to their advantage. they didnt base their campaign on any known facts of anything, but simply the fear that something might happen. the whole marrying dogs and educating children on gay issues, that has nothing to do with gay marriage.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21ok, lets split hairs! img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21i later said "because of history gay communities are insular" so as to clear up any streamofconsciousnesscornfusion for you. b, 21b, 21also, im not necessarily saying straight people fear gay people. im saying there are fears and suspicions involved when groups seperate themselves. im not displaying my opinions on the matter, im saying that when there is a group that is seperated, this suspicion and fear happens. and that prop 8 proponents used this to their advantage. they didnt base their campaign on any known facts of anything, but simply the fear that something might happen. the whole marrying dogs and educating children on gay issues, that has nothing to do with gay marriage. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Yeah, I feel that. To me, it's really telling that Prop 8 was headed to defeat based on polling up until the last few weeks, when suddenly the "yes" side came charging back. Says a lot about the ability of their campaign to really mobilize and spread the word.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21i wish religion did not exist period... b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happyday.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21What's with the dinosaur god worshiping thing for you avatar (which I thoroughly enjoy every time I see it - what is it from?)?b, 21b, 21Is dinosaur worship not considered a religion?
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21the idea that we should "move past it" makes no sense b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21"Move on" doesn't necessarily mean leave it alone ...it also suggests pursuing another resolution ....b, 21b, 21h, 21 b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Ah, I see. Gotcha.b, 21b, 21At this point, I think the "other" resolution seems to be momentum towards another state initiative (ah, California, such are the wonders of your democratic system), this time to legalize gay marriage. b, 21b, 21I wonder how long this can ping-pong back and forth. At some point, do you just wait until the opposition gets tired?
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21i didnt see ANY divisive bullshit from no-on-prop-8 ppl until after it had already passed.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21You're speaking as though this justifies such talk.b, 21b, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21 i dont apologize at all for people trying to make this into some racial thing esp when all evidence points to it being a generational issue above all, including w/in the black community.b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Well if it includes the black community then why should we single out the black community.b, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21your righteous poster routine on here is really corny b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21you're a funny dude Deej....i wish you all the best
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21the idea that we should "move past it" makes no sense b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21"Move on" doesn't necessarily mean leave it alone ...it also suggests pursuing another resolution ....b, 21b, 21h, 21 b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Ah, I see. Gotcha.b, 21b, 21At this point, I think the "other" resolution seems to be momentum towards another state initiative (ah, California, such are the wonders of your democratic system), this time to legalize gay marriage. b, 21b, 21I wonder how long this can ping-pong back and forth. At some point, do you just wait until the opposition gets tired? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21Bottom line is it shouldn't have been on the ballot in the first place....I'm not sure what legal action can be taken in that regard but the fight belongs in the courts and not in front of churches and in the streets...
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21the idea that we should "move past it" makes no sense b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21"Move on" doesn't necessarily mean leave it alone ...it also suggests pursuing another resolution ....b, 21b, 21h, 21 b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21they are pursuing another resolution. from what ive seen, they started out by trying to dispell any bit of misinformation the pro 8 campaign was putting forth. b, 21b, 21now that it has passed, actual citizens are organizing rallies and attacking specific groups that helped pass it. its not like theyre dwelling on how they ran their campaign in the first place.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21Bottom line is it shouldn't have been on the ballot in the first place....I'm not sure what legal action can be taken in that regard but the fight belongs in the courts and not in front of churches and in the streets... b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Well, it's not like the Prop 8 campaign got it on the ballot illegally. They did what was needed by CA legal standards. The court cases being raised seem dependent on very specific legal language that may or may not prove persuasive. b, 21b, 21And as for where the fight needs to be - I got no problems with the street protests in front of the Mormon temples. They're not some corner church; we're talking about an incredibly well-funded and politically influential institution trying to steer policy. That's their right but no one should be surprised at a populist backlash thrown their direction.b, 21b, 21b, 21
Out of curiosity, how many people do you think were confused?b, 21b, 21Yes on 8 = legal gay marriageb, 21No on 8 = illegal gay marriageb, 21b, 21Instead of what it actually was. I'm just curious. I can see uninformed fools thinking the above. But, I can also see ignorant fucks knowing exactly what they were doing.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Out of curiosity, how many people do you think were confused?b, 21b, 21Yes on 8 = legal gay marriageb, 21No on 8 = illegal gay marriageb, 21b, 21Instead of what it actually was. I'm just curious. I can see uninformed fools thinking the above. But, I can also see ignorant fucks knowing exactly what they were doing. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21It's possible there were SOME voters who were confused but I doubt it was statistically significant. The blanketing of both campaigns in the final weeks before election day should have helped clear up any confusion for many.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21i didnt see ANY divisive bullshit from no-on-prop-8 ppl until after it had already passed.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21You're speaking as though this justifies such talk.b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21no, im notb, 21b, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21 i dont apologize at all for people trying to make this into some racial thing esp when all evidence points to it being a generational issue above all, including w/in the black community.b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Well if it includes the black community then why should we single out the black community.b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21we shouldntb, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21your righteous poster routine on here is really corny b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21you're a funny dude Deej....i wish you all the best b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21you're a condescending dude. thnx but no thnx on that bridge to bullshit - trying to equate yes vs. no on prop 8 ppl is real suspect dot gif
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