b,121And there is a squeamishness about country among those who think America is the prime mover of international terrorism, or that America is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq etc.. etc...
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Of course people should feel squeamish over their country killing thousands of people you heartless piece of shit.
b,121And there is a squeamishness about country among those who think America is the prime mover of international terrorism, or that America is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq etc.. etc...
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b,121Of course people should be squeamish over their country killing thousands of people you heartless piece of shit.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Zero tolerance for this bullshit. The people who protected neighborhoods from the confessional parties who sought genocide in Iraq was the US military after the change in strategy in 2007. They should win a nobel prize for beating back the subhumans who sent truck bombs to pet markets, who sent killers door to door. So I throw the outrage right back at you and the rest of the easily fooled moralizers.
b,121Let me just clarify here about squeamishness and patriotism. For the hard left, like Chomsky and Zinn, it is fair to say they are not patriotic. They are not criticizing policies so much as making a fundamental argument about the nature, the design, the predestination of America's capitalist system. For Chomsky and Zinn and others of this ilk--think weather underground, people who spell America with three ks--there is no love of country, because the country is a predatory and exploitative monstrosity. This is very different than voicing criticism of Bush, however deluded and misguided that criticism is.
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b,121Now I think Obama is patriotic. I don't think Democrats are unpatriotic. Of course love of country can be ugly and it can be beautiful and only fools would equate criticism of country with a lack of patriotism. But when Bill Ayers tells an interviewer that he wishes his little weather underground had "done more," when he is photographed stamping on an American flag, well are we supposed to refrain from questioning his patriotism. He declares his disdain for country for all to hear.
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b,121As for onetet, my prissy friend from B-more, I don't question his patriotism. I don't particularly care. It's just that in his exchange with me I detected the robotic hard left anti-Americanism I said was squeamish about their patriotism. And let's be honest. Everyone knows this species of leftist, who feels uncomfortable about American power. I said squeamish by the way, not unpatriotic. And there is a squeamishness about country among those who think America is the prime mover of international terrorism, or that America is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq etc.. etc...
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I think some Americans prefer to think that our government is the same as every other evil regime around the world rather than acknowledge just how evil the Ahmadinejad's of the world really are.b,121b,121This is a very small, very boisterous minority and they have been around for at least 75 years.
b,121I think some Americans prefer to think that our government is the same as every other evil regime around the world rather than acknowledge just how evil the Ahmadinejad's of the world really are.
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b,121This is a very small, very boisterous minority and they have been around for
at least 75 years since the Articles of Confederation. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121All governments have their moments of moral and ethical weakness, and the citizens depend on these moments to prosper. People who feel the way you describe never seem to want to give back their house that is on someone else's land (typically Native American) previously; so the moral relativism goes on and on.
I like my standard of living, and I accept that a lot of blood and suffering are responsible for much of that. However, I also believe it's important to pick your battles. I thought before both the Afghanistan and Iraq war were started, that they were mistakes. I still believe that, I also believe they have not and will not improve my quality of life or my relative safety.
b,121Zero tolerance for this bullshit. The people who protected neighborhoods from the confessional parties who sought genocide in Iraq was the US military after the change in strategy in 2007. They should win a nobel prize for beating back the subhumans who sent truck bombs to pet markets, who sent killers door to door. So I throw the outrage right back at you and the rest of the easily fooled moralizers.
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font class="post"1b,121the iraq war destabilized iraq. there was no al-qaeda/mujahideen calling the shots pre 2003. sadaam may have been brutal...horrible i'm most certain, but the country was more than contained. these "confessional parties" are post-2003. the destabilized iraq wasteland. the us military have been asked to fight an open ended war with an ever changing cast of "evildoers". i commend the military for their loyalty and bravery but they have been asked to do too much. they are fighting a war against an enemy who didn't exist in iraq 8 years ago.
b,121Zero tolerance for this bullshit. The people who protected neighborhoods from the confessional parties who sought genocide in Iraq was the US military after the change in strategy in 2007. They should win a nobel prize for beating back the subhumans who sent truck bombs to pet markets, who sent killers door to door. So I throw the outrage right back at you and the rest of the easily fooled moralizers.
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b,121the iraq war destabilized iraq. there was no al-qaeda/mujahideen calling the shots pre 2003. sadaam may have been brutal...horrible i'm most certain, but the country was more than contained. these "confessional parties" are post-2003. the destabilized iraq wasteland. the us military have been asked to fight an open ended war with an ever changing cast of "evildoers". i commend the military for their loyalty and bravery but they have been asked to do too much. they are fighting a war against an enemy who didn't exist in iraq 8 years ago.
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thats good that you figured that out.b,121that being said, the "face" and "image" do have important effects, at home and around the world. economy,foreign policy and abortion aside, i will be happy to see a person of color elected president. expect a significant cultural impact.b,121b,121second, presidents campaign with a lot of lip service...but when they actually settle into office and start making shitloads of appointments is just one aspect of the importance of the position.
b,121E**, defend Palin as Leader of the Free World. I dare you.
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font class="post"1b,121I'm still patiently waiting for a response to this, and am genuinely curious. Outside the anti-choice and haaaacky maaam vote, how are McCain supporters justifying voting for her? I'm not trying to be flippant, I really want to know.
b,121I think some Americans prefer to think that our government is the same as every other evil regime around the world rather than acknowledge just how evil the Ahmadinejad's of the world really are.
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b,121This is a very small, very boisterous minority and they have been around for at least 75 years.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121rock. i think you generalize "their" stance for sake of discrediting "them". keep in mind that the u.s. has wielded economic,political and military influence that has destabilized governments and propped up dictatorships for over 75 years. nations without that sway have to rely on different tactics to get what they want. america's list of atrocities probably compares in length to saddam's iraq, iran, chavez, castro , n.korea, etc. We have a laundry list of positives that we should be proud of, but it doesnt necessarily take away the fact that we have contributed to a lot of misery in the world.b,121b,121juuuuuuuuuussssst sayin
b,121Let me just clarify here about squeamishness and patriotism. For the hard left, like Chomsky and Zinn, it is fair to say they are not patriotic. They are not criticizing policies so much as making a fundamental argument about the nature, the design, the predestination of America's capitalist system. For Chomsky and Zinn and others of this ilk--think weather underground, people who spell America with three ks--there is no love of country, because the country is a predatory and exploitative monstrosity. This is very different than voicing criticism of Bush, however deluded and misguided that criticism is.
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b,121Now I think Obama is patriotic. I don't think Democrats are unpatriotic. Of course love of country can be ugly and it can be beautiful and only fools would equate criticism of country with a lack of patriotism. But when Bill Ayers tells an interviewer that he wishes his little weather underground had "done more," when he is photographed stamping on an American flag, well are we supposed to refrain from questioning his patriotism. He declares his disdain for country for all to hear.
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b,121As for onetet, my prissy friend from B-more, I don't question his patriotism. I don't particularly care. It's just that in his exchange with me I detected the robotic hard left anti-Americanism I said was squeamish about their patriotism. And let's be honest. Everyone knows this species of leftist, who feels uncomfortable about American power. I said squeamish by the way, not unpatriotic. And there is a squeamishness about country among those who think America is the prime mover of international terrorism, or that America is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq etc.. etc...
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Since you have jumped into the tone of broad sweeping statements regarding those that question the government, I will follow the tone.b,121b,121The problem with you and your people is immediately attributing any military action to moral duty; The constant portrayal of american military as liberators of oppressed people. If this were true, we would have military presence in many more countries than we currently do. "Genocide" is rampant, yet we (The US military) only takes action when it is financially necessary or beneficial.b,121b,121If you are fine with initiating military actions for financial and political gain, just come out and say it, quit hiding behind the moral superiority big screen.
b,121Obama needs to project more toughness--stop talking about health care. Real men don't go to the doctor.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121true words spoken from a spoiled brat with a silver spoon up his ass and 300 dollar latin lps used as blinders who obviuosly doesn't pay for his own health care coverage
b,121E**, defend Palin as Leader of the Free World. I dare you.
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b,121I'm still patiently waiting for a response to this, and am genuinely curious. Outside the anti-choice and haaaacky maaam vote, how are McCain supporters justifying voting for her? I'm not trying to be flippant, I really want to know.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Palin's church is no more horrifying than Obama's church for more than 20 years. While I, like you, am against the government's regulation of ovaries, I am also against everything in Reverend Jeremiah Wright's 9-11 sermon, the God Damn America one. As a governor, Palin did not do anything for her evangelical base. I have no reason to think she would be an activist Christian in the White House. The main rap on her seems to be that A) she is dangerously ignorant of world affairs and B) she is a vindictive bitch who used the public trust to settle personal scores--troopergate. b,121b,121To her credit, she is a real reformer despite the Democrat spin. She took on a corrupt Republican machine in Alaska. She has good instincts on public policy and the war, she has an uncomplicated desire to demoralize and finish our nation's enemies and she increases the odds that a war hero, maverick reformer will win the election. I am not in Sarah Palin's demographic. But Andrew Sullivan's rants are embarrassing only to Andrew Sullivan. I wish she was more knowledgeable of the world, but she is preferable to say Joe Biden, who is clearly knowledgeable but also at the same time confused. He wanted to partition Iraq for example.
b,121Let me just clarify here about squeamishness and patriotism. For the hard left, like Chomsky and Zinn, it is fair to say they are not patriotic. They are not criticizing policies so much as making a fundamental argument about the nature, the design, the predestination of America's capitalist system. For Chomsky and Zinn and others of this ilk--think weather underground, people who spell America with three ks--there is no love of country, because the country is a predatory and exploitative monstrosity. This is very different than voicing criticism of Bush, however deluded and misguided that criticism is.
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b,121Now I think Obama is patriotic. I don't think Democrats are unpatriotic. Of course love of country can be ugly and it can be beautiful and only fools would equate criticism of country with a lack of patriotism. But when Bill Ayers tells an interviewer that he wishes his little weather underground had "done more," when he is photographed stamping on an American flag, well are we supposed to refrain from questioning his patriotism. He declares his disdain for country for all to hear.
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b,121As for onetet, my prissy friend from B-more, I don't question his patriotism. I don't particularly care. It's just that in his exchange with me I detected the robotic hard left anti-Americanism I said was squeamish about their patriotism. And let's be honest. Everyone knows this species of leftist, who feels uncomfortable about American power. I said squeamish by the way, not unpatriotic. And there is a squeamishness about country among those who think America is the prime mover of international terrorism, or that America is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq etc.. etc...
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b,121Since you have jumped into the tone of broad sweeping statements regarding those that question the government, I will follow the tone.
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b,121The problem with you and your people is immediately attributing any military action to moral duty; The constant portrayal of american military as liberators of oppressed people. If this were true, we would have military presence in many more countries than we currently do. "Genocide" is rampant, yet we (The US military) only takes action when it is financially necessary or beneficial.
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b,121If you are fine with initiating military actions for financial and political gain, just come out and say it, quit hiding behind the moral superiority big screen.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121What was sweeping about what I wrote. I don't think Zinn/Chomsky/weather underground/ward churchill lefties are patriotic. As for the morality of the American military, I think most wars we fight are just, but i wouldn't defend the morality of every American military action. As for genocide, you could argue that it is happening today in Sudan. I think America or the world should intervene there.
b,121E**, defend Palin as Leader of the Free World. I dare you.
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b,121I'm still patiently waiting for a response to this, and am genuinely curious. Outside the anti-choice and haaaacky maaam vote, how are McCain supporters justifying voting for her? I'm not trying to be flippant, I really want to know.
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b,121Palin's church is no more horrifying than Obama's church for more than 20 years. While I, like you, am against the government's regulation of ovaries, I am also against everything in Reverend Jeremiah Wright's 9-11 sermon, the God Damn America one. As a governor, Palin did not do anything for her evangelical base. I have no reason to think she would be an activist Christian in the White House. The main rap on her seems to be that A) she is dangerously ignorant of world affairs and B) she is a vindictive bitch who used the public trust to settle personal scores--troopergate.
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b,121To her credit, she is a real reformer despite the Democrat spin. She took on a corrupt Republican machine in Alaska. She has good instincts on public policy and the war, she has an uncomplicated desire to demoralize and finish our nation's enemies and she increases the odds that a war hero, maverick reformer will win the election. I am not in Sarah Palin's demographic. But Andrew Sullivan's rants are embarrassing only to Andrew Sullivan. I wish she was more knowledgeable of the world, but she is preferable to say Joe Biden, who is clearly knowledgeable but also at the same time confused. He wanted to partition Iraq for example.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121uncomplicated....good instincts..b,121b,121E** PLAESE....b,121b,121b,121b/wb,121b,121b,121"war hero" as qualifier for the Presidency? I would have thought you were above crap like this.
b,121I think some Americans prefer to think that our government is the same as every other evil regime around the world rather than acknowledge just how evil the Ahmadinejad's of the world really are.
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b,121This is a very small, very boisterous minority and they have been around for at least 75 years.
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b,121rock. i think you generalize "their" stance for sake of discrediting "them". keep in mind that the u.s. has wielded economic,political and military influence that has destabilized governments and propped up dictatorships for over 75 years. nations without that sway have to rely on different tactics to get what they want. america's list of atrocities probably compares in length to saddam's iraq, iran, chavez, castro , n.korea, etc. We have a laundry list of positives that we should be proud of, but it doesnt necessarily take away the fact that we have contributed to a lot of misery in the world.
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b,121juuuuuuuuuussssst sayin
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Really. In the last 75 years our country has defeated the Nazis and the Commies. We are trying to defeat what I call the Islamic Supremacists. There is no comparing our country to North Korea, whose juche masters deliberately starve whole provinces and have erected gulags one can see from space. Ditto for the other rogue regimes. And I submit that overall we have ameliorated more misery than the misery we have caused. A classic example of this is Niccaragua. When Reagan was supporting the Contras there, the left was convinced that we were taking the side of a discredited terror gang of ex apparats of the ancien regime. But in a free election it was the Sandinistas who lost and the Contras who won. Yeah freedom. And while it's true that America supported plenty of sons of bitches in the cold war, the transition from dictatorship to democracy for the American sphere of influence is much better than the ex Soviet sphere. Compare Latin America to central asia. The reason for this is that ultimately in countries like Chile, Argentina and Brazil we ended up supporting the liberal movements that ousted our old dictator clients.
b,121Palin's church is no more horrifying than Obama's church for more than 20 years. While I, like you, am against the government's regulation of ovaries, I am also against everything in Reverend Jeremiah Wright's 9-11 sermon, the God Damn America one. As a governor, Palin did not do anything for her evangelical base.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121E**, you're too smart to be sitting here doing this tit-for-tat comparison of their churches. I personally could give a shit if her exorcist preacher thinks witches exist, and I agree that she seems to be suckering the evangelicals like Bush did. But to boil Wright's life of accomplishments down to his shocking (and over the line) response to 9/11 is bullshit and you must know that. Before we were able to pass judgment based on 10 second youtube clips, Wrights church was considered pretty mainstream. I'm more offended by Palin's apparent acceptance of her church's most extreme doctrines. You seem like a smart guy E**, and I gotta think your as offended as I am by her views on abortion, her actual governing on rape, and her "interest" in banning books. Not mention people walking next to dinosaurs.b,121b,121/font1
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b,121A) she is dangerously ignorant of world affairs and
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Your not gonna touch that one huh? Is this not a concern for you? With everywhere you've lived and studied, you don't think it would be a hilarious farce for her to be president, if we weren't talking about the deadly serious business of our national security?b,121b,121/font1
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b,121She took on a corrupt Republican machine in Alaska.
b,121She has good instincts on public policy and the war, she has an uncomplicated desire to demoralize and finish our nation's enemies
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font class="post"1b,121b,121I get that for you, all issues trail behind cutting taxes and keeping doctrinaire republicans in power. Since that's basically the definition of partisanship, would you deny that your views on this election are kinda cynical? There are issues I disagree with my candidates on, but I would never vote for someone I see as "dangerously ignorant." Comparing her to Biden, we can all have our disagreements on strategy, and plenty of smart people thought partitioning Iraq was a good idea, but at least he didn't learn about the surge from the news right?b,121b,121/font1
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b,121she increases the odds that a war hero, maverick reformer will win the election.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121This has gotta be a joke, right? Are we holding a casting call for a mascot here, or trying to find someone to govern competently and steer the ship through dangerous waters? I'm just trying to put country first, feel me?
b,121Damn, dude Vitamin could out debate paalin in about 3 seconds.
b,121Thought about running for VP dude?
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Vitamin has had a passport longer than Palin, and certainly has the silly and unbelievable claims to back up bullshit! He should be in the Cabinet at the very least!
Someone please photoshop Vitamins avatar onto Palins body, kthxbai....b,121b,121b,121Edit: Btw, I really do appreciate Vitamins contributions lately, and I'm really trying to avoid the righteous anger that seems to grip a lot of liberals. Vitamin's posts have been pretty thoughtful, and although I think generalizing "most US wars" as just is a going a bit far, its not any more crazy than saying Bush=Hitler. Not trying to gas E** up here, just saying, lets see if we can all keep it substantive....
b,121Edit: Btw, I really do appreciate Vitamins contributions lately, and I'm really trying to avoid the righteous anger that seems to grip a lot of liberals. Vitamin's posts have been pretty thoughtful, and although I think generalizing "most US wars" as just is a going a bit far, its not any more crazy than saying Bush=Hitler. Not trying to gas E** up here, just saying, lets see if we can all keep it substantive....
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font class="post"1b,121b,121To be fair, Bush=Hitler was Vitamin's reduction of what I posted. Hitler and Bush were both mentioned, and the act of voting for each was compared in a discussion of the word "tyrant" -- that's true. But acts can be compared without being equated. I'm not claiming it was the most subtle of arguments, but I'm also not sure how much Bush's many bloody achievements in Iraq deserve subtle evaluation.b,121b,121Vitamin's initial engagements with me were laced with (paraphrase) "your idiocy allows me an opportunity for teaching" and in general adopted an arrogant tone, so I responded in kind. For some reason, only I got called out for my aggressiveness, however. Fair enough -- seems like he has a history of respected contributions here, and his subsequent posts to others have been more polite. But his insult-laden posts caught me at a bad moment when my girlfriend had just had some worrisome news about a family member who's serving in Iraq (things are okay -- turns out he was in combat but was not one of the wounded), and in that context Vitamin's initial posts struck me as highly offensive in that they seemed like not just armchair warmongering in content but also Limbaugh-esque baiting and taunting in tone, discussing issues that are life-or-death for people I know. If that's not where he's coming from, cool, but that's how it came across to me.b,121b,121Anyway, I'm in favor of keeping things civil and substantial.
Debates 4 dayz coming upb,121b,121wed Canadian french debateb,121Thursday: canadian english debateb,121b,121We have 5 party leaders in one debate here in canada img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohmyer1.gif" alt="" /1b,121b,121but its all aboutb,121b,121 img src="http://www.lepoint.fr/content/system/media/1/200808/19336_bidenpalin_une.jpg"1 b,121b,121what your take mega meltdownb,121b,121i just hope she makes one mistake that biden can come back to all night
Wow, Vitamin's defense of Palin was, well, really sad. Most of his back and forth with people has been about the need for American strength in foreign policy and here you have someone who is clearly unqualified to take on that leadership role. b,121b,121WHY NOT JUST SAY COP THAT? b,121b,121In fact, is it so difficult to say, "she was a terrible choice even though I want to see McCain win"? Does that concession really cost so much? Is face more important than reasoned logic?
b,121Wow, Vitamin's defense of Palin was, well, really sad. Most of his back and forth with people has been about the need for American strength in foreign policy and here you have someone who is clearly unqualified to take on that leadership role.
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b,121WHY NOT JUST SAY COP THAT?
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b,121In fact, is it so difficult to say, "she was a terrible choice even though I want to see McCain win"? Does that concession really cost so much? Is face more important than reasoned logic?
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Because she is the neocons best shot at another bite of the apple (a lot of her advisers are Bush neocons). Because she is such a blank slate she can be influenced by whoever the McCain campaign put in place to bring her up to speed (see first point). Because to admit a mistake is to throw the campaign, McCain can't get rid of her now.b,121b,121Right now Gov. Palin's performance at Thursday's debate will be critical to the survival of McCain's campaign. If she tanks it will further erode support for McCain with the late deciders who increasingly see her as unable to be President. She needs to at least hold her own to be credible and erase some of the taint of the Couric interviews. Best case scenario she crushes Biden (yah, right) and dispels the feeling she can't take over for John McCain.
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