b,121Finally if America is so despised in the world, why do so many non-Americans want to come here and become Americans?
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font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121don't mean to nitpick your whole essay but....b,121b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/walkawaysonfinal.gif" alt="" /1
b,121 Listen, I have no patience for rubes like you.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Cool, Lil' Lord Fauntleroy, the disgust is more than mutual. Go find a seat at the table with Christopher Bitch'uns and other disgraced intellectuals whose reputations imploded with their support of the Bush/Cheney/Rove march to war crimes, torture, and inconceivable debt.
And I'm seeing Obama at +4.8 in the RCP average. This is good news for him, although I'm not sure if the first of the post-debate polls has been factored in. There's not much chance for McCain to make up room, especially because:b,121b,1211) There is only about a month left until Election Day, and swings of 3+ points in the polls are tough to manufacture when - at this juncture - most people have long since made up their minds.b,1212) His debate strength - foreign policy/war - has come and gone.b,1213) Sarah Palin is up in 5 days.b,121
b,121By the way, if I can add: E*i seems a lot angrier than what I remember. That's not a bad thing. Just interesting.
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b,121Sup dude!
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b,121It's because he realizes that he's witnessing the collapse of all he holds dear. The hegemony graemlin will soon be obsolete. The right gambled on an unstable standard bearer and they see their twilight approaching.
b,121E*i can stick around and turn out the lights.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121what are you basing that on? Have you read say the Nation's response to the debate. They are angry/nervous that Obama has adopted McCain's position. I am pleased as punch that the liberal candidate who won his primary by promising change is embracing my positions on everything from Iraq and Iran to the need to cut government spending in light of the bailout, which he supports. It's much better to have your adversaries make your arguments.
b,121By the way, if I can add: E*i seems a lot angrier than what I remember. That's not a bad thing. Just interesting.
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b,121Sup dude!
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b,121It's because he realizes that he's witnessing the collapse of all he holds dear. The hegemony graemlin will soon be obsolete. The right gambled on an unstable standard bearer and they see their twilight approaching.
b,121E*i can stick around and turn out the lights.
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b,121what are you basing that on? Have you read say the Nation's response to the debate. They are angry/nervous that Obama has adopted McCain's position. I am pleased as punch that the liberal candidate who won his primary by promising change is embracing my positions on everything from Iraq and Iran to the need to cut government spending in light of the bailout, which he supports. It's much better to have your adversaries make your arguments.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121To be fair, I don't know a Presidential candidate who would openly advocate government spending - or at least some sort of general spending kybosh - in a time like this. I was glad when Obama admitted that some of his plans might have to be put on hold during this crisis. That's a pragmatic stance that will serve him well.
b,121 Listen, I have no patience for rubes like you.
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b,121Cool, Lil' Lord Fauntleroy, the disgust is more than mutual. Go find a seat at the table with Christopher Bitch'uns and other disgraced intellectuals whose reputations imploded with their support of the Bush/Cheney/Rove march to war crimes, torture, and inconceivable debt.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121Is the disgust really "more than mutual?" Whatever does that mean? Anyway your prissy sanctimony provides a teaching moment. Obama supports attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan. Do you think he will do this without relying on what you call war crimes? Do you think he will be able to partner with Pakistan's military and avoid the taint of torture? Do you think he will manage all of this without expanding the debt? You can't have it both ways. Either you were against Iraq because it was a distraction from al Qaeda, which it really wasn't. Or you are one of these people with the sandwich boards who blather on about hegemony and imperialism. I think most Obama supporters like the idea of a big American military squashing al Qaeda. I like it too. Then there is the not in our names set, who prattle off the same talking points from 1968 and somehow think the sadists who were destroying Iraq were fighting empire and representative of the civilians they slaughtered. Naomi Klein once famously promised to bring "Najaf to New York." Okay. That sort of thing is, say it with me, moral idiocy. It is not just retarded. It is also politically not viable. It is a position that offends most Americans. There is no rising progressive movement that embraces that sort of bullshit. It's the same small minority who has always been squeamish about their patriotism. So quote your Howard Zinn and quote your Chomsky and squeal about Hitchens and the like. But you will always be at best loony 3 percent.
b,121And I'm seeing Obama at +4.8 in the RCP average. This is good news for him, although I'm not sure if the first of the post-debate polls has been factored in.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121In the tracking polls we should be seeing 1 day of the 3 post debate poll today. Saturday didn't have it because the polling was done before the debate on Friday. It won't be until Tuesday that we see a three day post tracking poll.b,121b,121All that tells us is the immediate reaction to the debates on registered voters on a national level. To see how this will affect the growing list of battleground states, that will prolly take at least a week to percolate to the surface. Then again, we are getting close so state level polls might be coming in quicker.b,121b,121Most of this can be gleaned by reading fivethirtyeight.com and several articles by the MTM. As for the spot polls that CNN and its ilk did right after the debate, they are claiming more Democrats answered the polls and thus the results might have a bias.
b,121 It's the same small minority who has always been squeamish about their patriotism.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121I've got the throw the challenge flag on this. Come on, E**. Folks here will be clambering to quote Samuel Johnson with statements like that.
b,121 Listen, I have no patience for rubes like you.
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b,121Cool, Lil' Lord Fauntleroy, the disgust is more than mutual. Go find a seat at the table with Christopher Bitch'uns and other disgraced intellectuals whose reputations imploded with their support of the Bush/Cheney/Rove march to war crimes, torture, and inconceivable debt.
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b,121Is the disgust really "more than mutual?" Whatever does that mean? Anyway your prissy sanctimony provides a teaching moment. Obama supports attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan. Do you think he will do this without relying on what you call war crimes? Do you think he will be able to partner with Pakistan's military and avoid the taint of torture? Do you think he will manage all of this without expanding the debt? You can't have it both ways. Either you were against Iraq because it was a distraction from al Qaeda, which it really wasn't. Or you are one of these people with the sandwich boards who blather on about hegemony and imperialism. I think most Obama supporters like the idea of a big American military squashing al Qaeda. I like it too. Then there is the not in our names set, who prattle off the same talking points from 1968 and somehow think the sadists who were destroying Iraq were fighting empire and representative of the civilians they slaughtered. Naomi Klein once famously promised to bring "Najaf to New York." Okay. That sort of thing is, say it with me, moral idiocy. It is not just retarded. It is also politically not viable. It is a position that offends most Americans. There is no rising progressive movement that embraces that sort of bullshit. It's the same small minority who has always been squeamish about their patriotism. So quote your Howard Zinn and quote your Chomsky and squeal about Hitchens and the like. But you will always be at best loony 3 percent.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121yeah, things get real prissy up here in Bmore, as you've probably noticed as you've sped past on your way to your powdered-nose soirees and croquet matches. And... false assumption; I'm not an Obama fan. I will enjoy McCain losing, but Obama wasn't my candidate (nor was Clinton); I'm far to the left of both and am disappointed by the concessions Obama's made to your kind. b,121b,121Your slimy, abject fear of a political spectrum of thought is disgustingly palpable, and, as you well know, both anti-American and anti-democratic at the core. Meanwhile, the number of my family members and ancestors who've died serving this country and its higher ideals is something I've lived my life trying to honor. Keep typing your rambling essays in the name of bigotry, though. Work through that guilt, buddy, you can do it.
b,121 It's the same small minority who has always been squeamish about their patriotism.
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b,121I've got the throw the challenge flag on this. Come on, E**. Folks here will be clamboring to quote Samuel Johnson with statements like that.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121This is what I'm saying about the new, angrier E*i. Patriotism baiting? Really? Really?b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bucs.gif" alt="" /1b,121b,121That said, I'm sure Hitchens (who I tend to find pretty rational even when I disagree with him) isn't above pulling label pin cards too so I guess Vitamin is in good company. b,121b,121Btw, this whole thread has definitely devolved into some img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif" alt="" /1 territory. Been a while since we've had a full-blown ideological debate with Saba gone and the Dolo-bot 2000 running on E.
font class="post"1b,121b,121More like:b,121b,121img src=http://collegeotr.s3.amazonaws.com/images/blogs/b607f91151b5ded6ef670763ad64bb46.jpg1b,121b,121Real Bancroft and Telegraph Dudes Know the Deal???
b,121really, if you think my statement sucks... yours isn't any better, holmes.
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b,121Relax with the middle finger graemlin, Jan. You're not 15 years old.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121i'm old and intelligent. that's why i'm on soulstrut. i feel superior.b,121b,121i never met any pro-american. most people really care about the US politics. why would one be pro-american? we'Re talking about politics. not culture or goods.b,121b,121i'm not against america at all, but i'm still concerned about their (military/financial) power mixed with the current political incompetence. and most people i know feel the same. don't tell me denmark is not sure whether the US government has done major mistakes in the last few years. whether they have caused more terrorism and war than peace. i'm talking about the present. not the past.
b,121I can't abide people who support needless wars calling me on my patriotism.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121To borrow an old phrase, patriotism and a nickel will get you a cup of coffee. The incessant right wing "patriotism" schtick has sucked all the life - and real meaning - from the word. If they had any interest in authentic patriotism they wouldn't strain themselves turning away while the constitution gets shredded. Any real patriot wouldn't expend so much energy finding loopholes to allow torture, and then throwing stones at "war criminals" on the other side.b,121b,121 img src="http://psmc.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/pogo-enemy.jpg"1
b,121Random question but somehow seems apropos for this thread:
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b,121America's deficit is made possible by trillions of dollars borrowed from foreign entities, especially China. What does that mean as strategic liability to American interests to have a massive deficit funded through a global network of lenders?
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font class="post"1b,121b,121A kind of similar situation already exists/existed for the US economy.b,121b,121For years, what with America having the biggest strongest economy, and currency, the $ has been used when trading some commodities. So if Iraq, want to sell oil to Cuba, they first have to buy millions of $. This aids the US economy greatly. In recent years the Euro has proven its self as becoming a good alternative to the US $. So a group of countries got together and decided that they weren't happy giving all this money to the Americans, especially as the US were using some of this money to bomb their countries. Fair enough maybe. But if they went through with it, and suddenly pulled billions of $ from the markets, and bought Euros instead, it would have a catastrophic effect on the US economy. So what do the US gov. do about it? They label them an 'axis of evil' and go to war with Iraq.
b,121To add: what is the distance between patriotism and fascism?
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b,121(And no, I'm not comparing America to the Nazis!)
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font class="post"1b,121b,121I know I am not part of the tribe here on these boards but I just need to point out that your question is problematic.b,121b,121By equating patriotism with a limited spectrum of ideology, i.e. a patriot is a step away from a Brown Shirt you cede patriotism to the far right and deny it to those of us who love and are devoted to their country on the left.b,121b,121Do not let conservatives own devotion and love of country. It is a mistake. One they have been bashing us over the head with for decades. b,121b,121Love your country, your flag, and stand up for what you believe is just in America. That is patriotism, not chanting USA, USA, USA.b,121b,121Thank you.
b,121To add: what is the distance between patriotism and fascism?
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b,121(And no, I'm not comparing America to the Nazis!)
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b,121I know I am not part of the tribe here on these boards but I just need to point out that your question is problematic.
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b,121By equating patriotism with a limited spectrum of ideology, i.e. a patriot is a step away from a Brown Shirt you cede patriotism to the far right and deny it to those of us who love and are devoted to their country on the left.
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b,121Do not let conservatives own devotion and love of country. It is a mistake. One they have been bashing us over the head with for decades.
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b,121Love your country, your flag, and stand up for what you believe is just in America. That is patriotism, not chanting USA, USA, USA.
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b,121Thank you.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121I think the point that O*** was making was that the meaning of the word 'patriotism' has been sufficiently co-opted/warped that semantically it's no longer that far from fascism, or at least a poisonous brand of nationalism.
b,121To add: what is the distance between patriotism and fascism?
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b,121 Fascism: 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
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b,121Patriotism: devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.
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font class="post"1b,121dictionary.comb,121b,121b,121pretty big difference, if you ask me.b,121b,121Unfortunately, in today's world anything resembling nationalism is thought to be a slippery slope towards allowing a Fascist gov't to take power.b,121b,121But, of course, there's no reason why one can't love, support, and be willing to defend one's country while still harboring major criticisms of its current leader and policies.b,121b,121Isn't there a famous quote from one of the founding-father-type figures who said something about how any true patriot must question his own gov't?
Let me just clarify here about squeamishness and patriotism. For the hard left, like Chomsky and Zinn, it is fair to say they are not patriotic. They are not criticizing policies so much as making a fundamental argument about the nature, the design, the predestination of America's capitalist system. For Chomsky and Zinn and others of this ilk--think weather underground, people who spell America with three ks--there is no love of country, because the country is a predatory and exploitative monstrosity. This is very different than voicing criticism of Bush, however deluded and misguided that criticism is. b,121b,121Now I think Obama is patriotic. I don't think Democrats are unpatriotic. Of course love of country can be ugly and it can be beautiful and only fools would equate criticism of country with a lack of patriotism. But when Bill Ayers tells an interviewer that he wishes his little weather underground had "done more," when he is photographed stamping on an American flag, well are we supposed to refrain from questioning his patriotism. He declares his disdain for country for all to hear. b,121b,121As for onetet, my prissy friend from B-more, I don't question his patriotism. I don't particularly care. It's just that in his exchange with me I detected the robotic hard left anti-Americanism I said was squeamish about their patriotism. And let's be honest. Everyone knows this species of leftist, who feels uncomfortable about American power. I said squeamish by the way, not unpatriotic. And there is a squeamishness about country among those who think America is the prime mover of international terrorism, or that America is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq etc.. etc...
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