font class="post"1b,121b,121Serious? Were you watching the same debate everyone else was? McCain was the clear winner and made Obama look very weak.b,121b,121McCain kept calling Obama naive and Obama took it. Obama should have pushed the fact that McCain tactics are the same as Bush's and look where that got us.
Haha, I figured I would check into soulstrut and see a lot of hand wringing over Obama's lack of killer zingers(!).b,121b,121Obama tailored his performance to the undecided, and every single network focus group gave him the win by fairly wide margins.b,121b,121Obama came off calm and collected. McCain looked like1he wanted to rip Obama's throat1out. He did not look at him the entire time.b,121b,121Body language and image told the tale. McCain looked rattled and old, Obama looked presidential.b,121b,121Watch the polls tick up a bit in a day or two1(they did today as well, although that wouldn't be caused by the debate)
b,121 McCain was the clear winner and made Obama look very weak.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121wha?b,121b,121McCain wouldnt even look Obama in the eye, he sneered...outside of his command of the geography of eastern europe and western Asia, he didnt really say a whole lot. It was a draw. I dont think McCain's cultivated charm was strong enough to pull any undecided's over the fence, or completely wash away the preconceived notions about him after his stupidity this week. McCain didnt clearly win anything
b,121Haha, I figured I would check into soulstrut and see a lot of hand wringing over Obama's lack of killer zingers(!).
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b,121Obama tailored his performance to the undecided, and every single network focus group gave him the win by fairly wide margins.
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b,121Obama came off calm and collected. McCain looked like1he wanted to rip Obama's throat1out. He did not look at him the entire time.
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b,121Body language and image told the tale. McCain looked rattled and old, Obama looked presidential.
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b,121Watch the polls tick up a bit in a day or two1(they did today as well, although that wouldn't be caused by the debate)
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font class="post"1b,121b,121In the next debate, look for Obama to counter the overuse of "Senator Obama clearly does not understand....", which McCain leaned heavily on to the desired effect (casting Obama as inexperienced). The only problem with that tactic (strategy? inside debate joke) is that it presses on a known fact, that McCain has been around longer, and it cuts both ways. In this debate, McCain used it effectively, but didn't level any serious damage. His mocking tone on several stabs and reactions don't work well on TV. But Obama needs to toughen his delivery without invoking the dreaded "angry Black man" image that he will constantly have to avoid.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Not sure if he's gonna pick up some undecided voters in the process, but Obama as of late is losing people who formerly wanted to vote for him. b,121b,121Of course1his blind support of the bail-out for one. His now-ridiculously hawkish stances as another. b,121b,121And then how about dissecting his 10-year energy plan to get us off of dependence on foreign oil. He proposes more at-home production. Well, the Gulf Coast is in shambles...and it has already been over-exploited to the point that it's probably not a good idea to make1a moive towards increased extraction/production there. If he wants to instead turn Alaska into Grand Isle...another bad idea. We've been down this road far too long for Obama to be so vague about how we're going to increase proiduction at home. b,121b,121Also, look at his second point of his energy plan. The US is going to become the vanguard in the field of producing fuel-efficient vehicles. Umm, does he realize that US auto manufacturers at this stage of the game are barely holding on for their lives? Does he realize that the US has a labor cost disadvantage that has caused much of the US auto industry to be exported overseas over the course1of the past 20 years? Why didn't Obama just say he was going to provide free spaceships to all of us courtesy of the Martians, because that would probably be just as feasible as the plan he expects people he must be thinking as naive and stupid to accept at face value. b,121b,121It's this kind of insensitivity, on top of already turning his back on several of the issues that brought many people to his feet to begin with, that is going to lose this election for Obama by Obama.b,121b,121And trust me, a McCain win is not something I want to see. This shit should be1a slam dunk...but once again the Dems are dropping the ball.
b,121Why watch this? there is nothing that Obama could say which would make me vote for him and I suspect most you feel the same about McCain.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121This event wasn't for the likes of you and me. We already know who we are going to vote for. We have our issues/reasons that we support our candidates and so this is just a side show for us.b,121b,121Truly, short of McCain melting down on camera or Obama saying he surrenders to Al-Qaeda we aren't going to re-access our choices.b,121b,121McCain made a strong showing, but he had to. The meme in the press was he was erratic, pulling stunts, and not presidential after his thrashing about for a week. On the minus side he got the strength part right but lacked the warmth (of say Ronald Regan) that seals the deal. While watching the CNN undecided voter meter during the debate, the undecideds dipped when McCain went of the attack against Obama specifically, this surprised me.b,121b,121Obama had a different job at this debate. He has the1"experience gap" to overcome, the Commander-In-Chief test. Barack showed that he had a grasp of the issues and didn't back down when McCain was aggressive. The meme in the press on Obama is he is too cool and likes to chew on an issue before he gets to a point, I think it was said he is too Professorial. He got to the point here. On the other hand he didn't do a good job of taking some of the abstract pain of the1economy and make1it personal (Hillery did this well, and her husband is legendary at it).b,121b,121While the1result is boring for those of us off the fence, I think both candidates did their jobs but neither scored a knock-out punch. The problem for McCain is he needed a game-changer I personally don't think he got that last night. Worse, Obama cleared the Commander-In-Chief test. While the1debate, as a debate goes. was a draw in my book that outcome favors Obama.b,121b,121Now its about the1polls this coming week to validate my assessment or once again prove the1rule that I have no sense what the middle road/undecided voter wants in a debate.
b,121Haha, I figured I would check into soulstrut and see a lot of hand wringing over Obama's lack of killer zingers(!).
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font class="post"1b,121b,121For real - people are acting like the debates are supposed to shore up support within each candidate's base. Uh, that was what the conventions are for. At this point, the debates are about appealing to the still undecideds who have no ideological allegiance one way or another. The vast majority1of the people here who have already made up their mind to go Obama or McCain would have gone with WHOEVER the party put up. You're rooting for the team, not the player. b,121b,121The only way I see the debates making a difference is if one candidate has a really, really bad outing. Like Nixon-sweating-like-a-pig bad. Dan Quayle-getting-sonned-bad (didn't hurt Bush in 88 but Bush wasn't running for VP). b,121b,121But just because Obama wasn't out for blood doesn't mean he failed. All you "how come Obama didn't just whip1it out and piss on that grumpy old man?"-types should read the focus group transcripts. None of them are criticizing him for not being aggro enough. And as JP pointed out, most of the major1polls suggest Obama took this. Not by a sliver, but by a country mile.b,121b,121"The only category in which McCain rated significantly higher than Obama was on ???spent more time attacking his opponent???. McCain won that one by 37 points."b,121b,121But he still lost.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Weird how some of y'all think McCain refusing to look at Obama as a win for Obama. The way we saw it around here...and I was with Obama supporters when I watched...was that McCain was making Obama look desperate as he tried and failed continuously to draw McCain's undivided attention.b,121b,121Y'all don't seem very in touch with what people in say the Bible Belt are like1and believe me, Obama did not win anything last night.b,121b,121I'd call it crisis mode for the Obama campaign right now as whether y'all want to accept it or not, his shit is all-too-quickly falling apart at the seams.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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b,121Haha, I figured I would check into soulstrut and see a lot of hand wringing over Obama's lack of killer zingers(!).
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b,121For real - people are acting like the debates are supposed to shore up support within each candidate's base. Uh, that was what the conventions are for. At this point, the debates are about appealing to the still undecideds who have no ideological allegiance one way or another. The vast majority1of the people here who have already made up their mind to go Obama or McCain would have gone with WHOEVER the party put up. You're rooting for the team, not the player.
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b,121The only way I see the debates making a difference is if one candidate has a really, really bad outing. Like Nixon-sweating-like-a-pig bad. Dan Quayle-getting-sonned-bad (didn't hurt Bush in 88 but Bush wasn't running for VP).
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b,121But just because Obama wasn't out for blood doesn't mean he failed. All you "how come Obama didn't just whip1it out and piss on that grumpy old man?"-types should read the focus group transcripts. None of them are criticizing him for not being aggro enough. And as JP pointed out, most of the major1polls suggest Obama took this. Not by a sliver, but by a country mile.
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b,121"The only category in which McCain rated significantly higher than Obama was on ???spent more time attacking his opponent???. McCain won that one by 37 points."
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b,121But he still lost.
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font class="post"1b,121b,1212 things...b,121b,121You should watch the debate.b,121b,121And polls were what had the Dems overly confident in the past 2 elections...that they1of course1lost. b,121b,121My advice to Dems is to quit self-congratulating yourselves for being able to assemble such a lock-step mass of voting soldiers...and realize that your core as resolute as it could possibly be still isn't big enough to win without Obama appealing to those who aren't your typical lifelong subscribers to any crazy shit the Dems ever propose. b,121b,121And I clearly saw Obama doing the opposite of that last night.
b,121I'd call it crisis mode for the Obama campaign right now as whether y'all want to accept it or not, his shit is all-too-quickly falling apart at the seams.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Goddamn are you stupid.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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b,121I'd call it crisis mode for the Obama campaign right now as whether y'all want to accept it or not, his shit is all-too-quickly falling apart at the seams.
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b,121Goddamn are you stupid.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121No, I just recognize that cheerleading Dems aren't the only people there are in this world. b,121b,121Just cause y'all think of anyone who isn't going to vote for Obama as stupid doesn't mean that you have them outnumbered.
b,121Just cause y'all think of anyone who isn't going to vote for Obama as stupid doesn't mean that you have them outnumbered.
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b,121Very true...though technically, Bush supporters didn't have Gore outnumbered in 2000 and we all know how that went.
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b,121Still trying to pretend the electoral college away?
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Ha, if only! b,121b,121But that's the thing: Obama's numbers are good E.C.-wise compared to his general lead. In contrast, Kerry was getting kind of trounced post-convention in both.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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b,121You know who's not voting for Obama?
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b,121TEXAS
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b,121b/w
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b,121I think we've discovered where Robert's less-whiteness ends!
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font class="post"1b,121b,121So it's either vote for Obama or back to the cornfields, ha?
Your argument would have more merit if it was at all in alignment with facts here.b,121b,121Right now, the electoral college is Obama's best asset. He has significant leads in several Bush-04 states and is looking very competitive in several others that haven't voted Dem in decades (VA, NC) mainly due to big professional and student populations - which are big for Obama. If the election were held today, he would walk away with at least 270 electoral votes, perhaps more, plenty to grant him the white house.b,121b,121There is a fair chance that Obama could lose the popular vote yet win the electoral college.b,121b,121The coalition that you envision being increasingly turned off by Obama either does not exist or is simply irrelevant.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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b,121The coalition that you envision being increasingly turned off by Obama either does not exist or is simply irrelevant.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Okay, buddy. Whatever you say.
b,121The coalition that you envision being increasingly turned off by Obama either does not exist or is simply irrelevant.
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b,121Okay, buddy. Whatever you say.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Seriously....it truly seems like folks on the east and west coast are totally disconnected from everything/everyone in the rest of the country.b,121b,121As far as the debate goes1it was a draw from where I sit.b,121b,121Nothing significant out of either one of them.b,121b,121I've seen polls out there this morning that show Obama "won" the debate 65%-35% and I've seen polls that say the complete opposite.....amazing how non-partisan, intelligent people can look at the same thing and come away with opposite views as to who "won".b,121b,121Or maybe it's just that those non-partisan "swing voters" just keep their opinions to themselves rather than blast them all across the internet.
b,121The coalition that you envision being increasingly turned off by Obama either does not exist or is simply irrelevant.
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b,121Okay, buddy. Whatever you say.
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b,121Seriously....it truly seems like folks on the east and west coast are totally disconnected from everything/everyone in the rest of the country.
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b,121As far as the debate goes1it was a draw from where I sit.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121I'm not at all disconnected - I'm pretty familiar with who Robert is, and that's who I'm responding to. Whereas I'm genuinely concerned with your opinion, Rich - you represent the same ideas I hear from many MANY people outside of my little bubble here - Robert's a fringe voter, at best. If he votes at all, it is for candidates so outside of the political mainstream as to be (as I said) irrelevant.b,121b,121I'll take the "I was sitting with a bunch of Obama-leaning swing voters who were all universally turned off" with a grain of salt, coming from him.b,121b,121And my personal opinion on the debate was that yes, it was a tie - and the tie, here, goes1to Obama I think. McCain looked pissed off and cranky, which just feeds the1narrative that developed over the past week.
b,121The coalition that you envision being increasingly turned off by Obama either does not exist or is simply irrelevant.
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b,121Okay, buddy. Whatever you say.
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b,121Seriously....it truly seems like folks on the east and west coast are totally disconnected from everything/everyone in the rest of the country.
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b,121As far as the debate goes1it was a draw from where I sit.
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b,121I'm not at all disconnected - I'm pretty familiar with who Robert is, and that's who I'm responding to. Whereas I'm genuinely concerned with your opinion, Rich - you represent the same ideas I hear from many MANY people outside of my little bubble here - Robert's a fringe voter, at best. If he votes at all, it is for candidates so outside of the political mainstream as to be (as I said) irrelevant.
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b,121I'll take the "I was sitting with a bunch of Obama-leaning swing voters who were all universally turned off" with a grain of salt, coming from him.
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b,121And my personal opinion on the debate was that yes, it was a tie - and the tie, here, goes1to Obama I think. McCain looked pissed off and cranky, which just feeds the1narrative that developed over the past week.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Honestly, I thought Obama's stammering was as disconcerting1as McCain's apparent crankiness.
b,121I'd call it crisis mode for the Obama campaign right now as whether y'all want to accept it or not, his shit is all-too-quickly falling apart at the seams.
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b,121Goddamn are you stupid.
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b,121No, I just recognize that cheerleading Dems aren't the only people there are in this world.
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b,121Just cause y'all think of anyone who isn't going to vote for Obama as stupid doesn't mean that you have them outnumbered.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121And this is even dumber.b,121b,121I'm not calling people who don't vote for Obama stupid. But you seem to think that Obama's campaign is falling apart whereas nearly every poll indicates otherwise -- he's adding to his lead.b,121b,121Maybe you'd like to specifically lay out how his campaign is falling apart at the seams?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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b,121The coalition that you envision being increasingly turned off by Obama either does not exist or is simply irrelevant.
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b,121Okay, buddy. Whatever you say.
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b,121Seriously....it truly seems like folks on the east and west coast are totally disconnected from everything/everyone in the rest of the country.
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b,121As far as the debate goes1it was a draw from where I sit.
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b,121I'm not at all disconnected - I'm pretty familiar with who Robert is, and that's who I'm responding to. Whereas I'm genuinely concerned with your opinion, Rich - you represent the same ideas I hear from many MANY people outside of my little bubble here - Robert's a fringe voter, at best. If he votes at all, it is for candidates so outside of the political mainstream as to be (as I said) irrelevant.
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b,121I'll take the "I was sitting with a bunch of Obama-leaning swing voters who were all universally turned off" with a grain of salt, coming from him.
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b,121And my personal opinion on the debate was that yes, it was a tie - and the tie, here, goes1to Obama I think. McCain looked pissed off and cranky, which just feeds the1narrative that developed over the past week.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121I'm an undecided at this point, who up to last week was convinced I was going to vote for Obama...exactly the type of person Obama is consciously trying to appeal to right now and failing miserably.b,121b,121Also, I wouldn't trust every white person who says now in public that they're going to vote for OBama to actually do so inside the ballot booth. b,121b,121Point being, I'm very afraid that the Dems have once again followd up putting up what could very well end up being yet another dud contender with acting all untouchable about the1power of his coalition. b,121b,121Cool, y'all as a group are excited about the1prospects. But y'all cannot once again fall back on that if-they're-not-with-us-then-they're-either-dumb- racist-or-irrelavent bullshit. b,121b,121Shit has proven not to work already, but here we go...b,121b,121And yes, the1people that Rich and I speak of typically don't use the internet nor do they particpate in polls. But they damned sure vote.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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b,121I'd call it crisis mode for the Obama campaign right now as whether y'all want to accept it or not, his shit is all-too-quickly falling apart at the seams.
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b,121Goddamn are you stupid.
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b,121No, I just recognize that cheerleading Dems aren't the only people there are in this world.
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b,121Just cause y'all think of anyone who isn't going to vote for Obama as stupid doesn't mean that you have them outnumbered.
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b,121And this is even dumber.
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b,121I'm not calling people who don't vote for Obama stupid. But you seem to think that Obama's campaign is falling apart whereas nearly every poll indicates otherwise -- he's adding to his lead.
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b,121Maybe you'd like to specifically lay out how his campaign is falling apart at the seams?
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font class="post"1b,121b,121I have..he is alienating himself from his supporters with his questionable plans to handle war and the economy. b,121b,121And I know this not from any electronic source. I know this from knowing and talking to a wide range of people. b,121b,121Obama really needs to recognize and address this problem. Yet, I fear since he has committed himself so much to his dumb ideas like1a big land war in Afghanistan that it may be too late for him.b,121b,121MAJOR MISSTEPS!
b,121And I know this not from any electronic source. I know this from knowing and talking to a wide range of people.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Hilarious. So you talking to a wide range of people trumps a poll of at least a thousand people?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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b,121the opinions of people in Austin TX, Ann Arbor MI & Chapel Hill NC are irrelevant to the outcome of this election
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font class="post"1b,121b,121Not AT ALL who I'm talking about. Those spots I would expect to vote for Obama overwhelmingly. But I guess accroding to people like1you, Obama doesn't need their votes either. New York and California...that's all Obama needs, right?
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