She will go before 3/4. I'll put my money on that. Any takers? (no KVH)
I wish I was a betting man.
Yeah, I doubt very much that she will be out by then. She will go to the bitter end. I just hope he keeps trouncing her in the states she needs to clear the hurdles in, that way all this mess can be avoided.
Shit is calculated and slimy. I will not sit this election out but if I end up pulling the lever for Clinton behind this I will be doing so with a bitter taste in my mouth.
If this is how it goes down, I will vote 3rd party, or possibly consider voting for McCain. CONSIDER it....that is how strongly I think the Dems are wrong to back Hillary in that scenario. If she wins big from here on out, different story.
I'm sorta there, but I don't know if I could bring myself to vote for version 2008 McCain. I'd just have to find solace in the fact that Bush is gone.
Nader, anyone? Bloomberg?
I hope I'm kidding.
I was never anti-Hillary during the course of this election, and these scenarios are merely heresay and conjecture at this point. But if this shit actually sticks to the wall and Ms. Clinton wins as a result of it, I'll most sincerely take my vote elsewhere. I'd like to stress that I don't believe that Hillary's campaign would actually pull stunts like this in order to win the Dem nomination. It'd be an uphill climb against McCain in the General for her, anyway. This monkey business would sink her ship certainly and immediately.
(I missed this because I have KeithVanHillerynuts on ignore.)
I agree that it is weak for both to skip voting on the larger FISA bill. That's not what we're talking about here. The retroactive immunity protection is my major concern and that is what this Dodd amendment covered. Obama voted for it and Hillary skipped. Look at my post. I specifically referred to the telecoms vote not the overall FISA bill. You stupid fuck. You got that rodhamdick so far in, it's popped through the back of your throat into your brain.
And who's the lawyer? Lol.
you're sonning yourself real hard on this one. go back and look at the two votes again....real closely this time. obama had the opportunity to vote against the overall bill, which not only gives immunity to the telecomms, but robs people of what i believe (and i'm just a 5th year lawyer) are constitutionally protected civil rights via the 4th amendment. your argument is ridiculous. obama voted for an amendment that solely effected the telecomms (which is your "major concern"), not the people who can get wiretapped without a warrant! when that amendment failed and he had the opportunity, along with every other senator, to vote against the whole rotten bill...he skipped the vote. hillary was in texas campaigning and issued a statement saying she would've voted against the whole thing.
"Julian Bond, the head of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, called for the [Michigan/Florida] delegates to be seated, saying failure to do so would amount to disenfranchising minority voters in those states. But on Wednesday, such a move was denounced by the Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, who said many people in those states did not go the polls because they assumed their votes would not count."
Seriously, I don't get how this is even in play: the decision was handed down by the national DNC itself! How is any candidate going to retro-actively seat delegates who were never supposed to count to begin with?
if that's what ends up happening, Shame On Hillary. The Democrats cannot have it both ways, claiming Gore actually won the popular vote in 2000 and then weaseling out a victory through Party rules and discarding the popular vote in 2008.
The dems weren't complaining about the popular vote v. electoral college in 2000, they were complaining because of Florida and the worst supreme court decision evvvvarrr - Bush v. Gore. The rules are the rules. it didn't favor her that independents and republicans were allowed to crossover in many states and vote in the dem primary. i think that is totally insane, but thats how it is.
she also had NO SAY in the dem primaries in florida and michigan. Dean made the choice to skip those states. what you mean is that she had the choice whether to campaign there or not.
I was never anti-Hillary during the course of this election, and these scenarios are merely heresay and conjecture at this point. But if this shit actually sticks to the wall and Ms. Clinton wins as a result of it, I'll most sincerely take my vote elsewhere. I'd like to stress that I don't believe that Hillary's campaign would actually pull stunts like this in order to win the Dem nomination. It'd be an uphill climb against McCain in the General for her, anyway. This monkey business would sink her ship certainly and immediately.
Read the lead story in the NY Times today. It's not conjecture, this strategy is openly attributed to her aides.
she also had NO SAY in the dem primaries in florida and michigan. Dean made the choice to skip those states. what you mean is that she had the choice whether to campaign there or not.
You know who else had "NO CHOICE" in those two Dem primaries? ANY Democratic candidate.
You said it yourself:
The rules are the rules.
Would you actually support (literally and outside of abstract argument) Hillary suing her OWN PARTY to claim the votes in Florida and Michigan? Because that's what it sounds like you are advocating, in an around-the-block sort-of way. This would be political suicide - not only for this election, but for her CAREER.
I was never anti-Hillary during the course of this election, and these scenarios are merely heresay and conjecture at this point. But if this shit actually sticks to the wall and Ms. Clinton wins as a result of it, I'll most sincerely take my vote elsewhere. I'd like to stress that I don't believe that Hillary's campaign would actually pull stunts like this in order to win the Dem nomination. It'd be an uphill climb against McCain in the General for her, anyway. This monkey business would sink her ship certainly and immediately.
Read the lead story in the NY Times today. It's not conjecture, this strategy is openly attributed to her aides.
It's just such an unbelievable postulation that I refuse to believe it until I see it. This has GOT to be a bluff. Then again, why would anyone bluff by showing their losing hand first? I mean, she'd had to be an utter effing moron to go through with this. The more I think about it, the more upset I get about it.
"Julian Bond, the head of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, called for the [Michigan/Florida] delegates to be seated, saying failure to do so would amount to disenfranchising minority voters in those states. But on Wednesday, such a move was denounced by the Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, who said many people in those states did not go the polls because they assumed their votes would not count."
Seriously, I don't get how this is even in play: the decision was handed down by the national DNC itself! How is any candidate going to retro-actively seat delegates who were never supposed to count to begin with?
Saw that too. I also thought Gail Collin's points today were interesting. re: How these close races expose some of the flaws in our system.
"Julian Bond, the head of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, called for the [Michigan/Florida] delegates to be seated, saying failure to do so would amount to disenfranchising minority voters in those states. But on Wednesday, such a move was denounced by the Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, who said many people in those states did not go the polls because they assumed their votes would not count."
Seriously, I don't get how this is even in play: the decision was handed down by the national DNC itself! How is any candidate going to retro-actively seat delegates who were never supposed to count to begin with?
Yeah, this is getting ridiculous. As is Tavis Smiley's insistence that Barack show up to speak at his State of Black Union event on the 23rd (Hilary plans to attend). Smiley also said that Michelle is not welcome at the event, presumably to represent Barack.
Tavis, I appreciate what you've done to keep relevant issues on the table for Black folk, but get over yourself! Something much larger is at stake right now than satisfying your ego.
if that's what ends up happening, Shame On Hillary. The Democrats cannot have it both ways, claiming Gore actually won the popular vote in 2000 and then weaseling out a victory through Party rules and discarding the popular vote in 2008.
The dems weren't complaining about the popular vote v. electoral college in 2000, they were complaining because of Florida and the worst supreme court decision evvvvarrr - Bush v. Gore. The rules are the rules. it didn't favor her that independents and republicans were allowed to crossover in many states and vote in the dem primary. i think that is totally insane, but thats how it is.
she also had NO SAY in the dem primaries in florida and michigan. Dean made the choice to skip those states. what you mean is that she had the choice whether to campaign there or not.
You are ignoring VOLUMES of writing, YEARS of hand wringing and one of the primary arguments against the legitimacy of GWB's presidency.
And Clinton DID have a say in whether she left her name on the ballot (MI) or showed up the day of the primaries in FL.
I was never anti-Hillary during the course of this election, and these scenarios are merely heresay and conjecture at this point. But if this shit actually sticks to the wall and Ms. Clinton wins as a result of it, I'll most sincerely take my vote elsewhere. I'd like to stress that I don't believe that Hillary's campaign would actually pull stunts like this in order to win the Dem nomination. It'd be an uphill climb against McCain in the General for her, anyway. This monkey business would sink her ship certainly and immediately.
Read the lead story in the NY Times today. It's not conjecture, this strategy is openly attributed to her aides.
It's just such an unbelievable postulation that I refuse to believe it until I see it. This has GOT to be a bluff. Then again, why would anyone bluff by showing their losing hand first? I mean, she'd had to be an utter effing moron to go through with this. The more I think about it, the more upset I get about it.
How about a Mulligan vote in MI and FL? Heh.
what are you guys talking about????? pulls stunts? how do you think the democrats of florida and michigan feel about their votes being meaningless. we aren't talking about idaho either, there are actually a lot of dems living in these states. MONKEY BUSINESS???!!!???!! i need a ricky gervais graemlin that says "are you having a laugh?" get serious folks.
if that's what ends up happening, Shame On Hillary. The Democrats cannot have it both ways, claiming Gore actually won the popular vote in 2000 and then weaseling out a victory through Party rules and discarding the popular vote in 2008.
The dems weren't complaining about the popular vote v. electoral college in 2000, they were complaining because of Florida and the worst supreme court decision evvvvarrr - Bush v. Gore. The rules are the rules. it didn't favor her that independents and republicans were allowed to crossover in many states and vote in the dem primary. i think that is totally insane, but thats how it is.
she also had NO SAY in the dem primaries in florida and michigan. Dean made the choice to skip those states. what you mean is that she had the choice whether to campaign there or not.
You are ignoring VOLUMES of writing, YEARS of hand wringing and one of the primary arguments against the legitimacy of GWB's presidency.
And Clinton DID have a say in whether she left her name on the ballot (MI) or showed up the day of the primaries in FL.
dawg, people have been debating the electoral college for years, and continue to do so. its not like gore showed up and the rules were re-written. so maybe it was poor word choice to say they weren't "complaining", however, that has NOTHING to do with bush robbing gore of the election. the supreme court applied civil rights law to this case, invoking the equal protection clause to florida. its the most criticized supreme court decision since Plessy v. Ferguson. truly absurd.
why is leaving her name on the ballot relevant? obama did the same thing in florida. they don't make the rules!! get over your fanboying for a few seconds.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Hillary: stop trying to rig this already rigged election. Don't you know that you have already been determined to be the overall winner? Oh, you're just creating a paper trail to cover the how-can-they-not-realize-it's-rigged riggedness of this most rigged rig? Alright then, that makes perfect sense to me.
what are you guys talking about????? pulls stunts? how do you think the democrats of florida and michigan feel about their votes being meaningless.
They have every right to be pissed. The target of their anger should be their state party leaders though, not the DNC. It was crystal clear what path they were heading down.
what are you guys talking about????? pulls stunts? how do you think the democrats of florida and michigan feel about their votes being meaningless.
They have every right to be pissed. The target of their anger should be their state party leaders though, not the DNC. It was crystal clear what path they were heading down.
what are you guys talking about????? pulls stunts? how do you think the democrats of florida and michigan feel about their votes being meaningless.
They have every right to be pissed. The target of their anger should be their state party leaders though, not the DNC. It was crystal clear what path they were heading down.
Ahem. truth.
yup. the state party leaders were warned. Maybe they thought the DNC was bluffing, but that doesn't matter.
I love that KVH has become the strut's proxy for the Clinton campaign to the degree that he's even mimicking her mock outrage about Florida and Michigan voters. They have no one to be mad at but their state leaders. Whats funny is that even KVH seems to be unable to bring himself a to defend a Clinton win based on party insiders overruling the voters. Even if its a one delegate difference, that's democracy; superdelagates need to fall back.
And not for nothing, but unlike Jonny, I consider myself, for better or worse, a Democrat. And I think she's been a good senator for my home state. But if she gets this through some sort of rule reversal on those states, or through superdelagates determining a "close" race, I'll probably stay home or vote elsewhere, and I won't be conflicted, I'll just be real real sad that my party is just as morally bankrupt as the other guys....
I love that KVH has become the strut's proxy for the Clinton campaign to the degree that he's even mimicking her mock outrage about Florida and Michigan voters. They have no one to be mad at but their state leaders. Whats funny is that even KVH seems to be unable to bring himself a to defend a Clinton win based on party insiders overruling the voters. Even if its a one delegate difference, that's democracy; superdelagates need to fall back.
who is outraged? i said Clinton was done after the Va primary. dems in mich and florida should have their votes counted though - that is only fair. so what if their state leaders are to blame for the f'd up primary, the dem party can still make their votes count - that is my argument.
i still don't understand why you guys are pointing fingers at Hillary, as if Obama didn't have the same game plan, at least in florida where he thought he had a shot.
From the nyt in january:
"Even as Mr. Obama???s advisers have sought to play down the results, his campaign has bought television time on national networks that has been hard to miss on Florida television stations. Grass-roots groups who say they are operating independently of Mr. Obama???s headquarters in Chicago have also been organizing across the state, trying to encourage support for him.
Terry Watson, who heads one of the grass-roots groups, said his organization handed out thousands of leaflets promoting Mr. Obama and asked Floridians to vote for him at a Martin Luther King Jr. Day parade in St. Petersburg last Monday. Mr. Watson said his group was ???the largest grass-roots organization??? in the state and was preparing to help Mr. Obama should he win the presidential nomination."
Comments
Yeah, I doubt very much that she will be out by then. She will go to the bitter end. I just hope he keeps trouncing her in the states she needs to clear the hurdles in, that way all this mess can be avoided.
Nader, anyone? Bloomberg?
I hope I'm kidding.
I was never anti-Hillary during the course of this election, and these scenarios are merely heresay and conjecture at this point. But if this shit actually sticks to the wall and Ms. Clinton wins as a result of it, I'll most sincerely take my vote elsewhere. I'd like to stress that I don't believe that Hillary's campaign would actually pull stunts like this in order to win the Dem nomination. It'd be an uphill climb against McCain in the General for her, anyway. This monkey business would sink her ship certainly and immediately.
you're sonning yourself real hard on this one. go back and look at the two votes again....real closely this time. obama had the opportunity to vote against the overall bill, which not only gives immunity to the telecomms, but robs people of what i believe (and i'm just a 5th year lawyer) are constitutionally protected civil rights via the 4th amendment. your argument is ridiculous. obama voted for an amendment that solely effected the telecomms (which is your "major concern"), not the people who can get wiretapped without a warrant! when that amendment failed and he had the opportunity, along with every other senator, to vote against the whole rotten bill...he skipped the vote. hillary was in texas campaigning and issued a statement saying she would've voted against the whole thing.
step off. walk away. don't come back.
"Julian Bond, the head of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, called for the [Michigan/Florida] delegates to be seated, saying failure to do so would amount to disenfranchising minority voters in those states. But on Wednesday, such a move was denounced by the Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, who said many people in those states did not go the polls because they assumed their votes would not count."
Seriously, I don't get how this is even in play: the decision was handed down by the national DNC itself! How is any candidate going to retro-actively seat delegates who were never supposed to count to begin with?
The dems weren't complaining about the popular vote v. electoral college in 2000, they were complaining because of Florida and the worst supreme court decision evvvvarrr - Bush v. Gore. The rules are the rules. it didn't favor her that independents and republicans were allowed to crossover in many states and vote in the dem primary. i think that is totally insane, but thats how it is.
she also had NO SAY in the dem primaries in florida and michigan. Dean made the choice to skip those states. what you mean is that she had the choice whether to campaign there or not.
Read the lead story in the NY Times today. It's not conjecture, this strategy is openly attributed to her aides.
You know who else had "NO CHOICE" in those two Dem primaries? ANY Democratic candidate.
You said it yourself:
Would you actually support (literally and outside of abstract argument) Hillary suing her OWN PARTY to claim the votes in Florida and Michigan? Because that's what it sounds like you are advocating, in an around-the-block sort-of way. This would be political suicide - not only for this election, but for her CAREER.
It's just such an unbelievable postulation that I refuse to believe it until I see it. This has GOT to be a bluff. Then again, why would anyone bluff by showing their losing hand first? I mean, she'd had to be an utter effing moron to go through with this. The more I think about it, the more upset I get about it.
How about a Mulligan vote in MI and FL? Heh.
Saw that too. I also thought Gail Collin's points today were interesting. re: How these close races expose some of the flaws in our system.
Obama supporters are suggesting a redo caucus
lol
Yeah, this is getting ridiculous. As is Tavis Smiley's insistence that Barack show up to speak at his State of Black Union event on the 23rd (Hilary plans to attend). Smiley also said that Michelle is not welcome at the event, presumably to represent Barack.
Tavis, I appreciate what you've done to keep relevant issues on the table for Black folk, but get over yourself! Something much larger is at stake right now than satisfying your ego.
You are ignoring VOLUMES of writing, YEARS of hand wringing and one of the primary arguments against the legitimacy of GWB's presidency.
And Clinton DID have a say in whether she left her name on the ballot (MI) or showed up the day of the primaries in FL.
No, she would just have to feel THAT entitled to the nomination.
what are you guys talking about????? pulls stunts? how do you think the democrats of florida and michigan feel about their votes being meaningless. we aren't talking about idaho either, there are actually a lot of dems living in these states. MONKEY BUSINESS???!!!???!! i need a ricky gervais graemlin that says "are you having a laugh?" get serious folks.
dawg, people have been debating the electoral college for years, and continue to do so. its not like gore showed up and the rules were re-written. so maybe it was poor word choice to say they weren't "complaining", however, that has NOTHING to do with bush robbing gore of the election. the supreme court applied civil rights law to this case, invoking the equal protection clause to florida. its the most criticized supreme court decision since Plessy v. Ferguson. truly absurd.
why is leaving her name on the ballot relevant? obama did the same thing in florida. they don't make the rules!! get over your fanboying for a few seconds.
lol!
They have every right to be pissed. The target of their anger should be their state party leaders though, not the DNC. It was crystal clear what path they were heading down.
Ahem. truth.
yup. the state party leaders were warned. Maybe they thought the DNC was bluffing, but that doesn't matter.
And not for nothing, but unlike Jonny, I consider myself, for better or worse, a Democrat. And I think she's been a good senator for my home state. But if she gets this through some sort of rule reversal on those states, or through superdelagates determining a "close" race, I'll probably stay home or vote elsewhere, and I won't be conflicted, I'll just be real real sad that my party is just as morally bankrupt as the other guys....
^^^Harlequinist^^^
who is outraged? i said Clinton was done after the Va primary. dems in mich and florida should have their votes counted though - that is only fair. so what if their state leaders are to blame for the f'd up primary, the dem party can still make their votes count - that is my argument.
i still don't understand why you guys are pointing fingers at Hillary, as if Obama didn't have the same game plan, at least in florida where he thought he had a shot.
From the nyt in january:
"Even as Mr. Obama???s advisers have sought to play down the results, his campaign has bought television time on national networks that has been hard to miss on Florida television stations. Grass-roots groups who say they are operating independently of Mr. Obama???s headquarters in Chicago have also been organizing across the state, trying to encourage support for him.
Terry Watson, who heads one of the grass-roots groups, said his organization handed out thousands of leaflets promoting Mr. Obama and asked Floridians to vote for him at a Martin Luther King Jr. Day parade in St. Petersburg last Monday. Mr. Watson said his group was ???the largest grass-roots organization??? in the state and was preparing to help Mr. Obama should he win the presidential nomination."
He will certainly need more superdelegates to reach the official nomination total.
If the superdels overturn the result of the pledged state delegates, many of them will lose their elected positions in November.
it is my understanding these folls are not actually elected.
edit:
you are maybe referring to their elections to state or other office ?
Many of them are elected officials - that's what he means.