They don't need to be if the person being executed is irrefutably guilty.
well, how many people on death row were convicted with their crime being filmed, the murderer turning to the camera, saying "I did this" and stating their name and social security number, then writing a detailed essay entitled "I commited this murder, and Im glad I did it", had it notarized....silly example yes, but all I am saying is that even if ONE innocent person is executed by the state, isnt that one to many? That is what I am asking, plaese to defend the state execution of ONE innocent person...not dozens, not hundreds...ONE. Humans are too stupid to be able to be able to say someone is irrefutably guilty with a 100% success rate.
it goes way beyond stats and pro/anti death penalty issues...humans arent infallible, in cooking your food, servicing your car, picking freinds and realtionships, appraising a peice of jewelry, a Dr. making a diagnosis for a patient, sentencing a presumably guilty criminal...shouldnt there be a way to rectify the situation?
If a doctor misdiagnoses me and I die how is it rectified??
uhhh, I didnt say you died, you are able to get a second opinion...that was my point.
If you want to keep it a dollars and cents issue: Actually, under the current system, it costs far more to execute a prisoner on average than it does to keep the person in prison for life.
I've heard this before.....and I don't believe it.
According to state and federal records obtained by The Los Angeles Times, maintaining the California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. This figure does not count the millions more spent on court costs to prosecute capital cases. The Times concluded that Californians and federal taxpayers have paid more than a quarter of a billion dollars for each of the state's 11 executions, and that it costs $90,000 more a year to house one inmate on death row, where each person has a private cell and extra guards, than in general prison population. This additional cost per prisoner adds up to $57.5 million in annual spending. (Los Angeles Times, March 6, 2005).
Innocent people getting Life In Prison is just as shameful to me as execution.
Then you bear more resemblance to the dude in this thread (or Bin Laden or Hitler) than you do to a humane person. Like Jesus, for example. You sound ready to move to Pakistan or Iraq or Sudan, where more people will agree with you.
Even if I thought revenge was a good thing, the imperfections in policework, prosecution, trials, application of law and human prejudice make it likely that mistakes will be made, and then innocent people are executed. This is an un-redeemable error, and I believe we should not create systems whereby a mistake cannot be ameliorated.
Further, I can't justify killing any criminal because there have been moments in my life where my behavior could be called "criminal." Imagine there being a policeman and a politically motivated prosecutor standing there when these "crimes" happened. I've bought and sold drugs, been in possession of drugs, fired unlicensed weapons, bought alcohol as a minor, broken into houses, had sex with teenage girls, vandalism, made homemade explosives that could be considered bombs...
I don't think I am a criminal, though I engaged in what is typical adolescent lawlessness. If I had been caught and prosecuted for any of this stuff, I could easily be labelled a child molester, terrorist, attempted-murderer, etc.
The notion that criminals are different from us is at the root of your whole revenge-driven theory. Any one of us, if his life were looked at with a microscope, could end up in prison. Any one of us could be accused of a grave crime. It's not "the criminals" against "us." We are all "us."
I feel sickened to hear you people say killiing someone in retribution should be sanctioned (or ordered) by law. It is a grandstnnd appeal to our outrage.
If the alleged crime in this thread had happened to any of us, or anyone we know, of course we would want to kill the motherfucker. We would be driven by rage and passion, which we would call "justice," so we could sanctify it and explain it to ourselves and others. That's why victims should not set policy -- they are driven by things unique to them, and we cannot assume this rage for ourselves. To appeal to our sympathy for the victims as a way of justifying creating more victims is absurd. Of course we want to kill them. Of course. But we shouldn't. It is evil.
And Mel_Gibson's pussy remarks only stand as testament to his inability to think for himself.
If you want to keep it a dollars and cents issue: Actually, under the current system, it costs far more to execute a prisoner on average than it does to keep the person in prison for life.
I've heard this before.....and I don't believe it.
According to state and federal records obtained by The Los Angeles Times, maintaining the California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. This figure does not count the millions more spent on court costs to prosecute capital cases. The Times concluded that Californians and federal taxpayers have paid more than a quarter of a billion dollars for each of the state's 11 executions, and that it costs $90,000 more a year to house one inmate on death row, where each person has a private cell and extra guards, than in general prison population. This additional cost per prisoner adds up to $57.5 million in annual spending.
It's inefficiency and beuracracy that costs, not the act of execution.
New Jersy claims to have spent $250 million on Death Penalty cases, yet has never executed anyone.
_________________________________________________________________________________ D. THE COST OF LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE VS THE DEATH PENALTY
Many opponents present, as fact, that the cost of the death penalty is so expensive (at least $2 million per case?), that we must choose life without parole ("LWOP") at a cost of $1 million for 50 years. Predictably, these pronouncements may be entirely false. JFA estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cost of Life Without Parole: Cases Equivalent To Death Penalty Cases 1. $34,200/year (1) for 50 years (2), at a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus $75,000 (4) for trial & appeals = $3.01 million 2. Same, except 3% (3) = $4.04 million 3. Same, except 4% (3) = $5.53 million
Vs.
Cost of Death Penalty Cases $60,000/year (1) for 6 years (5), at a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus $1.5 million (4) for trial & appeals = $1.88 million Same, except 3% (3) = $1.89 million Same, except 4% (3) = $1.91 million
There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent LWOP cases. There also appears to be no question that, over time, equivalent LWOP cases are much more expensive - from $1.2 to $3.6 million - than death penalty cases. Opponents ludicrously claim that the death penalty costs, over time, 3-10 times more than LWOP. (1) The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94) research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $75,000/yr. (as of 12/95). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant.
(2) U.S. Vital Statistics Abstract, 1994 and Capital Punishment 1995, BJS 1996.
(3) Annual cost increases are based upon: 1) historical increases in prison costs, including judicial decisions regarding prison conditions, and the national inflation rate; 2) medical costs, including the immense cost of geriatric care, associated with real LWOP sentences; 3) injury or death to the inmate by violence; 4) injury or death to others caused by the inmate (3 and 4 anticipate no DP and that prisoners, not fearing additional punishment, other than loss of privileges, may increase the likelihood of violence. One could make the same assumptions regarding those on death row. The difference is that death row inmates will average 6 years incarceration vs. 50 years projected for LWOP); 5) the risk and the perceived risk of escape; and 6) the justifiable lack of confidence by the populace in our legislators, governors, parole boards and judges, i.e. a violent inmate will be released upon society.
(4) $75,000 for trial and appeals cost, for DP-equivalent LWOP cases, assumes that the DP is not an option. We believe this cost estimate is very low. We have over-estimated that DP cases will cost twenty times more, on average, or $1.5 million. Our exaggerated estimate states that the DP will have twenty times more investigation cost, defense and prosecution cost, including voir dire, court time, guilt/innocence stage, sentencing stage and appellate review time and cost than DP equivalent LWOP cases. Even though we have greatly exaggerated the cost of DP cases, DP cases still prove to be significantly less expensive, over time, than the DP equivalent LWOP cases.
(5) 6 years on death row, prior to execution, reflects the new habeas corpus reform laws, at both the state and federal levels. Some anti-death penalty groups speculate that such time may actually become only 4 years. If so, then DP cases would cost even that much less than the DP equivalent LWOP cases. However, the average time on death row, for those executed from 1973-1994, was 8 years (Capital Punishment 1994, BJS, 1995). Therefore, 6 years seems more likely. Even using the 8 year average, the DP equivalent LWOP cases are still $1 million more expensive than their DP counterparts ($2 million @ 2% annual increase).
One of the USA???s largest death rows is in Texas, with 442 inmates, of which 229, or 52%, have been on death row over 6 years - 44, or 10%, have been on for over 15 years, 8 for over 20 years. 60 inmates, nationwide, have been on death row over 18 years. (as of 12/96).
NOTE - 10/19/00 - We received a post which located a flaw within our cost evaluation. The reader stated that we should "present value" all the costs of both a life sentence and the death penalty and that, if we do so, a life sentence is cheaper than a death sentence. Using the numbers in our analysis, such is a good point.
It should be noted that we were intentionally generous in minimizing life costs within our analysis. Please review we have not included
1)the recent studies on geriatric care at about $70,000/year/prisoner in today's dollars , or
2) the recent explosion of Hepatitis C and AIDS within the prison system, or
3) the cost savings to jurisdictions based on plea bargains to maximum life sentences, which can only occur due solely to the presence of the death penalty. Such should accrue as a cost benefit of the death p
enalty, and
4) none of the above have been included in our cost analysis. All of which either increase the cost of a life sentence or accrue as a cost credit to the death penalty, and
5) And we have been extremely generous to the anti death penalty position with our numbers to begin with. I suspect that an average life without parole sentence costs closer to $150,000-$300,000, for all pre-trial, trial and appeals, as opposed to the $75,000 used in our study.
Those omissions should not be considered a balancing, because accuracy is paramount. There is no cost study which fully evaluates all of those issues. We hope to update the data at some point with a more thorough review.
???An eye for an eye would make the whole world blind.???
I'd rather be blind than see scum like this living off my tax dollars.
He's scum for sure, but then again...a lot of people are, but they still should not be executed.
I disagree 100% if you "murder" someone imo your as good as dead to me and i would'nt mind pulling the electricution switch on every single one of these hoe batchs who are clogging up our jail system.
Innocent people getting Life In Prison is just as shameful to me as execution.
Then you bear more resemblance to the dude in this thread (or Bin Laden or Hitler) than you do to a humane person. Like Jesus, for example. You sound ready to move to Pakistan or Iraq or Sudan, where more people will agree with you.
I'll be the first to admit I'm very Un-Jesus-like.
And if personally given the choice of being innocent and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole vs. execution, give me the juice and call me what you want.
The fact that you(or I) have committed crimes and gotten away with them should not(and in my case, does not) help rationalize either these crimes OR not punishing people who have committed and been convicted of such crimes.
The Death Penalty in our country is only used on the most heinous of criminals, not rambunctious teens blowing up mailboxes.
Less than 500 people have been executed in my lifetime vs. 100,000's of murder victims.
And the criminal that motivated this thread deserves nothing more than extermination.
Or should we let him kill yet another innocent person while in prison and chalk it up to having a "Civilized Society"??
R*ch, How do you reconcile your Libertarian tendencies with being pro death penalty? Since the death penalty was reinstated in the USA, all related crimes have increased. Therefore, the death penalty is no more than vengeance, on behalf of victims, administered by a government and, consequently, a massive, error prone and ineffective bureaucratic system.
If you want to keep it a dollars and cents issue: Actually, under the current system, it costs far more to execute a prisoner on average than it does to keep the person in prison for life.
I've heard this before.....and I don't believe it.
According to state and federal records obtained by The Los Angeles Times, maintaining the California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. This figure does not count the millions more spent on court costs to prosecute capital cases. The Times concluded that Californians and federal taxpayers have paid more than a quarter of a billion dollars for each of the state's 11 executions, and that it costs $90,000 more a year to house one inmate on death row, where each person has a private cell and extra guards, than in general prison population. This additional cost per prisoner adds up to $57.5 million in annual spending.
It's inefficiency and beuracracy that costs, not the act of execution.
New Jersy claims to have spent $250 million on Death Penalty cases, yet has never executed anyone.
Agreed, but until death penalty supporters find a more cost-efficient way to actually get the job done, it still costs taxpayers more. That's why I said "under the current system..." Again, this is keeping the morals/ethics side out of it.
R*ch, How do you reconcile your Libertarian tendencies with being pro death penalty? Since the death penalty was reinstated in the USA, all related crimes have increased. Therefore, the death penalty is no more than vengeance, on behalf of victims, administered by a government and, consequently, a massive, error prone and ineffective bureaucratic system.
Being reinstated and being used is two different things.
Delaware has the highest execution rate in the U.S. and one of the the lowest murder rates.
In Texas, the murder total for Houston in 1981 was 710, the Death Penalty was "reinstated" in '82 and the murder count decreased in '83 to less than 300.
Coincidence??
And I have no problem whatsoever if one(or more) of my opinions doesn't fall in line with any labeled belief system whether it be Libertarian or not.
I don't understand how anyone can say the Death Penalty is ineffective in deterring crime when it has never been used at a level at which we could determine such a statistic.
What I would like to hear is someone justify the worth of our tatooed skinhead's life when it is obvious he has no regard for another human life, has made a decision to reject our society and will never be rehabilitated.
Rather than me justify his execution I'd like to hear someone justify his existance.
I don't understand how anyone can say the Death Penalty is ineffective in deterring crime when it has never been used at a level at which we could determine such a statistic.
YOU SOUND STALINIST!
Rock, when I am logged out, I can see your posts, and according to my statistics, 56.4% of everything you talk about on Soulstrut is death, death penalty, murder and execution. That's too much!
I don't understand how anyone can say the Death Penalty is ineffective in deterring crime when it has never been used at a level at which we could determine such a statistic.
YOU SOUND STALINIST!
Rock, when I am logged out, I can see your posts, and according to my statistics, 56.4% of everything you talk about on Soulstrut is death, death penalty, murder and execution. That's too much!
I don't understand how anyone can say the Death Penalty is ineffective in deterring crime when it has never been used at a level at which we could determine such a statistic.
YOU SOUND STALINIST!
Rock, when I am logged out, I can see your posts, and according to my statistics, 56.4% of everything you talk about on Soulstrut is death, death penalty, murder and execution. That's too much!
what's wrong with talking about death?? It's part of life... all i'm saying is if your out at some test checking if your ok or not, and your a convict. You happen to get the guards gun and murder him in cold blood. You should just be shipped back to jail??? charged with another crime??? hold up the court with bullshit like this and waste more time... money.. ect ect ect and only to put him back in jail with another 50 years on his 50 he already was serving. F U C K that! firing range a few bullets.... or better yet oldschool stoned to death, a few rocks upside your head and it won't cost anything.
What I would like to hear is someone justify the worth of our tatooed skinhead's life when it is obvious he has no regard for another human life, has made a decision to reject our society and will never be rehabilitated.
Rather than me justify his execution I'd like to hear someone justify his existance.
1) He is a human. 2) We are a Christian Nation and Christian's believe in forgiveness not revenge. 3) I do not want (or trust) my government to decide who lives and dies. 4) The person who pulls the switch (I think there is currently a sign up sheet circulating here at soulstrut for that privilege) will be guilty of murder. 5) Killing him will not bring back those he killed. 6) Killing him will not heal anyone. 7) Life in prison will give him a chance to reflect on what he has done and may lead to redemption. 8) His mother loves him. 9) He supports cool hardcore bands.
Believe me if i was a rich wealthy man and established with money i'd be outta here in a heartbeat living somewhere off mediterranean sea coast. Sadly i'm not making big enough moves to hit the $500,000 a year mark yet.
O.A.
as much as I repspect most of your comments on this board I'm a little wowed in a bad way by your words about "population control" and not liking the country you live in.
The system here ain't perfect but it's not as bad as many others and it allows you the chance to be a dissident voice.
I don't understand how anyone can say the Death Penalty is ineffective in deterring crime when it has never been used at a level at which we could determine such a statistic.
YOU SOUND STALINIST!
Rock, when I am logged out, I can see your posts, and according to my statistics, 56.4% of everything you talk about on Soulstrut is death, death penalty, murder and execution. That's too much!
Statistics don't lie, statisticians do.
Damn, I hit "Quote" for that?!
Every morning when I wake up, just before I log on to SS, I have this battle with an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other...
What I would like to hear is someone justify the worth of our tatooed skinhead's life when it is obvious he has no regard for another human life, has made a decision to reject our society and will never be rehabilitated.
Rather than me justify his execution I'd like to hear someone justify his existance.
1) He is a human. 2) We are a Christian Nation and Christian's believe in forgiveness not revenge. 3) I do not want (or trust) my government to decide who lives and dies. 4) The person who pulls the switch (I think there is currently a sign up sheet circulating here at soulstrut for that privilege) will be guilty of murder. 5) Killing him will not bring back those he killed. 6) Killing him will not heal anyone. 7) Life in prison will give him a chance to reflect on what he has done and may lead to redemption. 8) His mother loves him. 9) He supports cool hardcore bands.
I can get with all of these except #2. Separation of church and state. We live in a secular nation that has no official religion, despite the vague references to God on our money.
Innocent people getting Life In Prison is just as shameful to me as execution.
Then you bear more resemblance to the dude in this thread (or Bin Laden or Hitler) than you do to a humane person. Like Jesus, for example. You sound ready to move to Pakistan or Iraq or Sudan, where more people will agree with you.
I'll be the first to admit I'm very Un-Jesus-like.
And if personally given the choice of being innocent and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole vs. execution, give me the juice and call me what you want.
The fact that you(or I) have committed crimes and gotten away with them should not(and in my case, does not) help rationalize either these crimes OR not punishing people who have committed and been convicted of such crimes.
The Death Penalty in our country is only used on the most heinous of criminals, not rambunctious teens blowing up mailboxes.
Less than 500 people have been executed in my lifetime vs. 100,000's of murder victims.
And the criminal that motivated this thread deserves nothing more than extermination.
Or should we let him kill yet another innocent person while in prison and chalk it up to having a "Civilized Society"??
7 years ago a close friend of mine, whom I've known since I was 15, got drunk and blacked out at a friend's skate ramp. He drank 5 or 6 40oz.'s and a fifth of whisky. Usually, he can drink most people under the table. This particular day he was really, really drunk. So drunk he blacked out, as I said.
After he blacked out, everyone decided to go to another skateboard ramp. He was blacked out, and doesn't remember leaving the first ramp. Once the party was over, my friend wanted to get his backpack out of the house. Being blacked-out drunk, he thought he was still at the first skate ramp, behind his friend's house--and not at the current skate ramp, which was not at his friend's house. My friend walked up to the house, the house that was not his friend's house, and tried to open the door. It was locked. While banging on the door he accidentally put his hand through the window (Breaking & Entering I). The woman inside the house, freaked out by the intruder, called the police.
My friend, blacked-out, was confused and walked to the other door (which was actually a detached garage). He found that door locked as well, but managed to open it (Breaking & Entering II). The police showed up, surrounded the garage, and demanded my friend come out with his hands up. My friend didn't understand what was happening and did nothing (Resisting Arrest). He was looking for his backpack in a garage he thought was his friend's house. He came out of the garage holding a bicycle tire and kinda tossed it aside when he saw all the lights (Assaulting a Police Officer). The cops unleashed the K-9s on my friend, and he was mauled to such a degree that when I saw the wounds, some 10 days later, I almost puked.
The police lied in their report. Said my friend was not drunk, that he willfully broke into both complexes with the intent to steal, or worse, kill. They said he hid from the police, and attacked them once they surrounded him. They said he didn't stop fighting until they had no other recourse but to sic the K-9s on him.
My friend spent 6 days in the county jail, handcuffed to a gurney, before he was allowed a phone call or could see a judge. He met his public defender at his arraignment, who told him the best he could hope for was a 17-year sentence, which he could serve 10 or 12 of and be out. He was released on bail, having had no prior convictions, and tried to figure out how he got drunk and blacked out and suddenly got caught up in so much fucking damage. He was planning on serving 17 years. His attorney convinced him there was nothing he could do about the police misconduct, the falsified report, the mistakes, the fact that he was blacked out. "It's your word against theirs. You gotta live with this."
I happened to be working for a prominent attorney at the time, and when I heard, I asked my boss what to do. He made a phone call to the prosecutor and my friend was given 40 hours community service and put on probation.
Such is justice? The same justice you are using to substantiate killing.
Assume my friend had gone to jail. He'd be prime prey for the seasoned convict (buttfucking, gangs, etc.). He'd likely have to defend himself. If he had a chance to escape I'm sure he'd try to take it. God forbid someone accidentally get killed in such a situation.
Another friend of mine was similarly situated. And he is dead now.
Of the 500 cases you mentioned, I'm sure more than a few of them are fraught with similar discrepancies.
There's not much distance between carelessness and a "heinous" criminal.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
Believe me if i was a rich wealthy man and established with money i'd be outta here in a heartbeat living somewhere off mediterranean sea coast. Sadly i'm not making big enough moves to hit the $500,000 a year mark yet.
O.A.
as much as I repspect most of your comments on this board I'm a little wowed in a bad way by your words about "population control" and not liking the country you live in.
The system here ain't perfect but it's not as bad as many others and it allows you the chance to be a dissident voice.
All I can say is i'm a pretty decent "human" but i'm not "patriotic"
He looks like a "state-raised" convict. Most folks who spend the majority of their life in a penitentiary adopt customs (buttfucking, gangs, tattoos, religion) that are customary in there but seem unbelievable to those of us who are free. These customs make life inside a penitentiary more livable.
The problem, obviously, is when someone who thought he'd never see outside life is set free and, besides learning how to function "normally", is left with the remnants of their convict life. Like our man here.
I used to volunteer as a drug counselor in California prisons and guys like this, with their face covered in gang signs, weren't out of the ordinary.
A friend of mine who was similarly defaced, was released from prison after assuming he'd spend his life inside, and was confronted with what to do about all the white supremacy regalia covering his body. (Imagine growing up in such terrible conditions that you are left to fend for yourself before you become a teenager. And all the situations that a lifestyle as such demands lands you in foster care, where you're gangraped by your new "brothers," which lands you in Youth Authority, which lands you in the penitentiary. Imagine living 20 or 30 years like this. Covering your face in such hatred isn't so bad if it keeps you relatively free from such pain.) People everywhere either compelled to fight you or deathly afraid of you. Either way you're risking jeapordizing your parole. A parole you thought you'd never get. My friend chose to cover his tattoos with an imagine of a phoenix rising from the flames. That is, he tattooed orange and red over solid black (not easy) over most of his body--neck, arms, chest, back. The original tattoos were covering suicide scars and heroin tracks. It was painful, in many ways. But it afforded him a somewhat "normal" re-entry into society. With recidivism being what it is, freedom didn't last long for him.
I'm not justifying what the guy in this thread allegedly did, or making a case for white supremacy, just saying he looks like he's spent some time in prison already.
I spent most of last week at a juvenile justice conference. I'm trained in psychology and have had to learn a lot more about criminal justice because my focus has become prevention. This where the most troubled individuals enter the system--through detention centers. Last quarter, for axample, our assessments turned-up that more than 85% of individuals in VA detention centers have serious mental health and substance abuse disorders.*
I honestly think we are just scratching the surface. It is utterly overwhelming. After I left the conference--when I should have felt empowered--I spent days thinking about a different line of work.
*(I'm not talking about smoking weed and conduct disorders. Serious shit!)
Having worked in the prison and juvenile justice system, I would highly recommend avoiding it. The prison system makes recovery nearly impossible. IF you want to help get at the front end of the pipeline in schools or the community. Much better time spent.
If a drunk fuck tried to come through my front door, broke a window, then walked over and "somehow" got through another locked door, none of that stuff with the police would have happened because I would have shot his fucking ass before they arrived.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
This one is a heartbreaker, but yes... if your stupid enough to drink and drive well then my brother that is a dumbshit move. If you decide to drink and drive you better be ready to die.. in the process kill innocent people, I'd say he should not be allowed to enjoy "life" itself be it behind bars or locked in a padded room. Sorry bro!! but if you do the crime, death be it. Perhaps if you don't kill the person and put them in a wheel chair forever maybe i'd consider life in jail.
I'm not sayin take it back to the days of when we use to hang women for being so-called-witches!! That's madness, but OK the world has become so soft with thoughts of redemption. These people are cold blooded killers, i'm not talking about unjustified war, i'm talkin about drive-by's, robbery type murders, ect ect this is violence not needed and the only thing these people understand is violence.
Comments
well, how many people on death row were convicted with their crime being filmed, the murderer turning to the camera, saying "I did this" and stating their name and social security number, then writing a detailed essay entitled "I commited this murder, and Im glad I did it", had it notarized....silly example yes, but all I am saying is that even if ONE innocent person is executed by the state, isnt that one to many? That is what I am asking, plaese to defend the state execution of ONE innocent person...not dozens, not hundreds...ONE. Humans are too stupid to be able to be able to say someone is irrefutably guilty with a 100% success rate.
uhhh, I didnt say you died, you are able to get a second opinion...that was my point.
(Los Angeles Times, March 6, 2005).
Lots more data here, including other state's studies: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#From%20DPIC
Then you bear more resemblance to the dude in this thread (or Bin Laden or Hitler) than you do to a humane person. Like Jesus, for example. You sound ready to move to Pakistan or Iraq or Sudan, where more people will agree with you.
Even if I thought revenge was a good thing, the imperfections in policework, prosecution, trials, application of law and human prejudice make it likely that mistakes will be made, and then innocent people are executed. This is an un-redeemable error, and I believe we should not create systems whereby a mistake cannot be ameliorated.
Further, I can't justify killing any criminal because there have been moments in my life where my behavior could be called "criminal." Imagine there being a policeman and a politically motivated prosecutor standing there when these "crimes" happened. I've bought and sold drugs, been in possession of drugs, fired unlicensed weapons, bought alcohol as a minor, broken into houses, had sex with teenage girls, vandalism, made homemade explosives that could be considered bombs...
I don't think I am a criminal, though I engaged in what is typical adolescent lawlessness. If I had been caught and prosecuted for any of this stuff, I could easily be labelled a child molester, terrorist, attempted-murderer, etc.
The notion that criminals are different from us is at the root of your whole revenge-driven theory. Any one of us, if his life were looked at with a microscope, could end up in prison. Any one of us could be accused of a grave crime. It's not "the criminals" against "us." We are all "us."
I feel sickened to hear you people say killiing someone in retribution should be sanctioned (or ordered) by law. It is a grandstnnd appeal to our outrage.
If the alleged crime in this thread had happened to any of us, or anyone we know, of course we would want to kill the motherfucker. We would be driven by rage and passion, which we would call "justice," so we could sanctify it and explain it to ourselves and others. That's why victims should not set policy -- they are driven by things unique to them, and we cannot assume this rage for ourselves. To appeal to our sympathy for the victims as a way of justifying creating more victims is absurd. Of course we want to kill them. Of course. But we shouldn't. It is evil.
And Mel_Gibson's pussy remarks only stand as testament to his inability to think for himself.
It's inefficiency and beuracracy that costs, not the act of execution.
New Jersy claims to have spent $250 million on Death Penalty cases, yet has never executed anyone.
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D. THE COST OF LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE VS THE DEATH PENALTY
Many opponents present, as fact, that the cost of the death penalty is so expensive (at least $2 million per case?), that we must choose life without parole ("LWOP") at a cost of $1 million for 50 years. Predictably, these pronouncements may be entirely false. JFA estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.
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Cost of Life Without Parole: Cases
Equivalent To Death Penalty Cases
1. $34,200/year (1) for 50 years (2), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$75,000 (4) for trial & appeals = $3.01 million
2. Same, except 3% (3) = $4.04 million
3. Same, except 4% (3) = $5.53 million
Vs.
Cost of Death Penalty Cases
$60,000/year (1) for 6 years (5), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$1.5 million (4) for trial & appeals = $1.88 million
Same, except 3% (3) = $1.89 million
Same, except 4% (3) = $1.91 million
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There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent LWOP cases. There also appears to be no question that, over time, equivalent LWOP cases are much more expensive - from $1.2 to $3.6 million - than death penalty cases. Opponents ludicrously claim that the death penalty costs, over time, 3-10 times more than LWOP.
(1) The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94) research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $75,000/yr. (as of 12/95). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant.
(2) U.S. Vital Statistics Abstract, 1994 and Capital Punishment 1995, BJS 1996.
(3) Annual cost increases are based upon: 1) historical increases in prison costs, including judicial decisions regarding prison conditions, and the national inflation rate; 2) medical costs, including the immense cost of geriatric care, associated with real LWOP sentences; 3) injury or death to the inmate by violence; 4) injury or death to others caused by the inmate (3 and 4 anticipate no DP and that prisoners, not fearing additional punishment, other than loss of privileges, may increase the likelihood of violence. One could make the same assumptions regarding those on death row. The difference is that death row inmates will average 6 years incarceration vs. 50 years projected for LWOP); 5) the risk and the perceived risk of escape; and 6) the justifiable lack of confidence by the populace in our legislators, governors, parole boards and judges, i.e. a violent inmate will be released upon society.
(4) $75,000 for trial and appeals cost, for DP-equivalent LWOP cases, assumes that the DP is not an option. We believe this cost estimate is very low. We have over-estimated that DP cases will cost twenty times more, on average, or $1.5 million. Our exaggerated estimate states that the DP will have twenty times more investigation cost, defense and prosecution cost, including voir dire, court time, guilt/innocence stage, sentencing stage and appellate review time and cost than DP equivalent LWOP cases. Even though we have greatly exaggerated the cost of DP cases, DP cases still prove to be significantly less expensive, over time, than the DP equivalent LWOP cases.
(5) 6 years on death row, prior to execution, reflects the new habeas corpus reform laws, at both the state and federal levels. Some anti-death penalty groups speculate that such time may actually become only 4 years. If so, then DP cases would cost even that much less than the DP equivalent LWOP cases. However, the average time on death row, for those executed from 1973-1994, was 8 years (Capital Punishment 1994, BJS, 1995). Therefore, 6 years seems more likely. Even using the 8 year average, the DP equivalent LWOP cases are still $1 million more expensive than their DP counterparts ($2 million @ 2% annual increase).
One of the USA???s largest death rows is in Texas, with 442 inmates, of which 229, or 52%, have been on death row over 6 years - 44, or 10%, have been on for over 15 years, 8 for over 20 years. 60 inmates, nationwide, have been on death row over 18 years. (as of 12/96).
NOTE - 10/19/00 - We received a post which located a flaw within our cost evaluation. The reader stated that we should "present value" all the costs of both a life sentence and the death penalty and that, if we do so, a life sentence is cheaper than a death sentence. Using the numbers in our analysis, such is a good point.
It should be noted that we were intentionally generous in minimizing life costs within our analysis. Please review we have not included
1)the recent studies on geriatric care at about $70,000/year/prisoner in today's dollars , or
2) the recent explosion of Hepatitis C and AIDS within the prison system, or
3) the cost savings to jurisdictions based on plea bargains to maximum life sentences, which can only occur due solely to the presence of the death penalty. Such should accrue as a cost benefit of the death p enalty, and
4) none of the above have been included in our cost analysis. All of which either increase the cost of a life sentence or accrue as a cost credit to the death penalty, and
5) And we have been extremely generous to the anti death penalty position with our numbers to begin with. I suspect that an average life without parole sentence costs closer to $150,000-$300,000, for all pre-trial, trial and appeals, as opposed to the $75,000 used in our study.
Those omissions should not be considered a balancing, because accuracy is paramount. There is no cost study which fully evaluates all of those issues. We hope to update the data at some point with a more thorough review.
I'll be the first to admit I'm very Un-Jesus-like.
And if personally given the choice of being innocent and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole vs. execution, give me the juice and call me what you want.
The fact that you(or I) have committed crimes and gotten away with them should not(and in my case, does not) help rationalize either these crimes OR not punishing people who have committed and been convicted of such crimes.
The Death Penalty in our country is only used on the most heinous of criminals, not rambunctious teens blowing up mailboxes.
Less than 500 people have been executed in my lifetime vs. 100,000's of murder victims.
And the criminal that motivated this thread deserves nothing more than extermination.
Or should we let him kill yet another innocent person while in prison and chalk it up to having a "Civilized Society"??
Jesus's father killed a few...
My kind of God.
Being reinstated and being used is two different things.
Delaware has the highest execution rate in the U.S. and one of the the lowest murder rates.
In Texas, the murder total for Houston in 1981 was 710, the Death Penalty was "reinstated" in '82 and the murder count decreased in '83 to less than 300.
Coincidence??
And I have no problem whatsoever if one(or more) of my opinions doesn't fall in line with any labeled belief system whether it be Libertarian or not.
I don't understand how anyone can say the Death Penalty is ineffective in deterring crime when it has never been used at a level at which we could determine such a statistic.
Rather than me justify his execution I'd like to hear someone justify his existance.
Thank you. I check these body count sites almost daily now. This helps to keep it in perspective. "Yeah, but you should see how many G-d killed.
http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
YOU SOUND STALINIST!
Rock, when I am logged out, I can see your posts, and according to my statistics, 56.4% of everything you talk about on Soulstrut is death, death penalty, murder and execution. That's too much!
Statistics don't lie, statisticians do.
Damn, I hit "Quote" for that?!
1) He is a human.
2) We are a Christian Nation and Christian's believe in forgiveness not revenge.
3) I do not want (or trust) my government to decide who lives and dies.
4) The person who pulls the switch (I think there is currently a sign up sheet circulating here at soulstrut for that privilege) will be guilty of murder.
5) Killing him will not bring back those he killed.
6) Killing him will not heal anyone.
7) Life in prison will give him a chance to reflect on what he has done and may lead to redemption.
8) His mother loves him.
9) He supports cool hardcore bands.
O.A.
as much as I repspect most of your comments on this board I'm a little wowed in a bad way by your words about "population control" and not liking the country you live in.
The system here ain't perfect but it's not as bad as many others and it allows you the chance to be a dissident voice.
Every morning when I wake up, just before I log on to SS, I have this battle with an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other...
Death or Disco
I can get with all of these except #2. Separation of church and state. We live in a secular nation that has no official religion, despite the vague references to God on our money.
7 years ago a close friend of mine, whom I've known since I was 15, got drunk and blacked out at a friend's skate ramp. He drank 5 or 6 40oz.'s and a fifth of whisky. Usually, he can drink most people under the table. This particular day he was really, really drunk. So drunk he blacked out, as I said.
After he blacked out, everyone decided to go to another skateboard ramp. He was blacked out, and doesn't remember leaving the first ramp. Once the party was over, my friend wanted to get his backpack out of the house. Being blacked-out drunk, he thought he was still at the first skate ramp, behind his friend's house--and not at the current skate ramp, which was not at his friend's house. My friend walked up to the house, the house that was not his friend's house, and tried to open the door. It was locked. While banging on the door he accidentally put his hand through the window (Breaking & Entering I). The woman inside the house, freaked out by the intruder, called the police.
My friend, blacked-out, was confused and walked to the other door (which was actually a detached garage). He found that door locked as well, but managed to open it (Breaking & Entering II). The police showed up, surrounded the garage, and demanded my friend come out with his hands up. My friend didn't understand what was happening and did nothing (Resisting Arrest). He was looking for his backpack in a garage he thought was his friend's house. He came out of the garage holding a bicycle tire and kinda tossed it aside when he saw all the lights (Assaulting a Police Officer). The cops unleashed the K-9s on my friend, and he was mauled to such a degree that when I saw the wounds, some 10 days later, I almost puked.
The police lied in their report. Said my friend was not drunk, that he willfully broke into both complexes with the intent to steal, or worse, kill. They said he hid from the police, and attacked them once they surrounded him. They said he didn't stop fighting until they had no other recourse but to sic the K-9s on him.
My friend spent 6 days in the county jail, handcuffed to a gurney, before he was allowed a phone call or could see a judge. He met his public defender at his arraignment, who told him the best he could hope for was a 17-year sentence, which he could serve 10 or 12 of and be out. He was released on bail, having had no prior convictions, and tried to figure out how he got drunk and blacked out and suddenly got caught up in so much fucking damage. He was planning on serving 17 years. His attorney convinced him there was nothing he could do about the police misconduct, the falsified report, the mistakes, the fact that he was blacked out. "It's your word against theirs. You gotta live with this."
I happened to be working for a prominent attorney at the time, and when I heard, I asked my boss what to do. He made a phone call to the prosecutor and my friend was given 40 hours community service and put on probation.
Such is justice? The same justice you are using to substantiate killing.
Assume my friend had gone to jail. He'd be prime prey for the seasoned convict (buttfucking, gangs, etc.). He'd likely have to defend himself. If he had a chance to escape I'm sure he'd try to take it. God forbid someone accidentally get killed in such a situation.
Another friend of mine was similarly situated. And he is dead now.
Of the 500 cases you mentioned, I'm sure more than a few of them are fraught with similar discrepancies.
There's not much distance between carelessness and a "heinous" criminal.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
All I can say is i'm a pretty decent "human" but i'm not "patriotic"
Having worked in the prison and juvenile justice system, I would highly recommend avoiding it. The prison system makes recovery nearly impossible. IF you want to help get at the front end of the pipeline in schools or the community. Much better time spent.
This one is a heartbreaker, but yes... if your stupid enough to drink and drive well then my brother that is a dumbshit move. If you decide to drink and drive you better be ready to die.. in the process kill innocent people, I'd say he should not be allowed to enjoy "life" itself be it behind bars or locked in a padded room. Sorry bro!! but if you do the crime, death be it. Perhaps if you don't kill the person and put them in a wheel chair forever maybe i'd consider life in jail.
I'm not sayin take it back to the days of when we use to hang women for being so-called-witches!! That's madness, but OK the world has become so soft with thoughts of redemption. These people are cold blooded killers, i'm not talking about unjustified war, i'm talkin about drive-by's, robbery type murders, ect ect this is violence not needed and the only thing these people understand is violence.