what's wrong with talking about death?? It's part of life... all i'm saying is if your out at some test checking if your ok or not, and your a convict. You happen to get the guards gun and murder him in cold blood. You should just be shipped back to jail??? charged with another crime??? hold up the court with bullshit like this and waste more time... money.. ect ect ect and only to put him back in jail with another 50 years on his 50 he already was serving. F U C K that! firing range a few bullets.... or better yet oldschool stoned to death, a few rocks upside your head and it won't cost anything.
"Kill him now" is what happens to most cop killers when they get caught by the police. Too many witnesses at this Arby's I guess.
Now that he has been caught none of your justifications stand. Whether he gets a death sentence or life in jail he; "be shipped back to jail??? charged with another crime??? hold up the court with bullshit like this and waste more time... money.. ect ect ect"
This conversation is of course moot. He (allegedly) killed a cop in Utah, he will be sentenced to death. Even his right wing political views wont save him now.
What I would like to hear is someone justify the worth of our tatooed skinhead's life when it is obvious he has no regard for another human life, has made a decision to reject our society and will never be rehabilitated.
Rather than me justify his execution I'd like to hear someone justify his existance.
1) He is a human. 2) We are a Christian Nation and Christian's believe in forgiveness not revenge. 3) I do not want (or trust) my government to decide who lives and dies. 4) The person who pulls the switch (I think there is currently a sign up sheet circulating here at soulstrut for that privilege) will be guilty of murder. 5) Killing him will not bring back those he killed. 6) Killing him will not heal anyone. 7) Life in prison will give him a chance to reflect on what he has done and may lead to redemption. 8) His mother loves him. 9) He supports cool hardcore bands.
I can get with all of these except #2. Separation of church and state. We live in a secular nation that has no official religion, despite the vague references to God on our money.
And yet we teach creationism in public schools in Kansas, outlaw gay marriage, elect politicians based on religious views...
You might not like it, but we are a Christian nation with Christian leaders. "Separation of church and state" does not affect the countless ways that Christian values shape out society.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
There is no question that I would face the reality of them being punished for their crime.
No one has ever been executed for drunk driving or killing anyone while behind the wheel so the comparison is weak at best.
The moral I take away from your friends story is the same one I've spent 21 years trying to teach my children.
There are consequences for everything you do, and if you go looking for trouble, you'll find it every time.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
This one is a heartbreaker, but yes... if your stupid enough to drink and drive well then my brother that is a dumbshit move. If you decide to drink and drive you better be ready to die.. in the process kill innocent people, I'd say he should not be allowed to enjoy "life" itself be it behind bars or locked in a padded room. Sorry bro!! but if you do the crime, death be it. Perhaps if you don't kill the person and put them in a wheel chair forever maybe i'd consider life in jail.
I'm not sayin take it back to the days of when we use to hang women for being so-called-witches!! That's madness, but OK the world has become so soft with thoughts of redemption. These people are cold blooded killers, i'm not talking about unjustified war, i'm talkin about drive-by's, robbery type murders, ect ect this is violence not needed and the only thing these people understand is violence.
seems to be all you understand as well etc etc (sorry, pet peeve of mine)
Oh yeah, I forgot, according to you stoning, firing squad, chair, is all a part of life so why not just do it?
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
This one is a heartbreaker, but yes... if your stupid enough to drink and drive well then my brother that is a dumbshit move. If you decide to drink and drive you better be ready to die
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
It's not an accident when you kill someone through drunk driving...
If viewed with a sympathetic eye you could call it manslaughter, however it's the same as murder in my opinion.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
This one is a heartbreaker, but yes... if your stupid enough to drink and drive well then my brother that is a dumbshit move. If you decide to drink and drive you better be ready to die.
have you ever got behind the wheel of a car with any alcohol in your system?
Death is a part of life, It's gonna happen everyone!! don't fool yourself. I'm talking about death before it's time due to heinous people. What's wrong with being stoned to death??? is that not civil enough for a human rights activist?
Ok here's a fair deal, nobody gets the death penalty, but everyone has to wear this man in the iron mask style.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
There is no question that I would face the reality of them being punished for their crime.
No one has ever been executed for drunk driving or killing anyone while behind the wheel so the comparison is weak at best.
The moral I take away from your friends story is the same one I've spent 21 years trying to teach my children.
There are consequences for everything you do, and if you go looking for trouble, you'll find it every time.
The story was about the imbalance of justice in our society.
Would you leave your wife or daughter in the hands of an overworked underpaid uninterested public defender or would you get the best attorney you could? What if you could not afford any attorney at all?
The people who end up on death row did not have good attorneys 99%* of the time. That is the real crime.
What I would like to hear is someone justify the worth of our tatooed skinhead's life when it is obvious he has no regard for another human life, has made a decision to reject our society and will never be rehabilitated.
Rather than me justify his execution I'd like to hear someone justify his existance.
1) He is a human. 2) We are a Christian Nation and Christian's believe in forgiveness not revenge. 3) I do not want (or trust) my government to decide who lives and dies. 4) The person who pulls the switch (I think there is currently a sign up sheet circulating here at soulstrut for that privilege) will be guilty of murder. 5) Killing him will not bring back those he killed. 6) Killing him will not heal anyone. 7) Life in prison will give him a chance to reflect on what he has done and may lead to redemption. 8) His mother loves him. 9) He supports cool hardcore bands.
I can get with all of these except #2. Separation of church and state. We live in a secular nation that has no official religion, despite the vague references to God on our money.
And yet we teach creationism in public schools in Kansas, outlaw gay marriage, elect politicians based on religious views...
You might not like it, but we are a Christian nation with Christian leaders. "Separation of church and state" does not affect the countless ways that Christian values shape out society.
Fair enough. I guess I'm so used to living in a state that laughs at Creationism, has legal gay marriage, and actively votes against politicians who lean on their religion. I forget how backward parts of this country are. At least, until election time rolls around. Then, it's hard to ignore.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
This one is a heartbreaker, but yes... if your stupid enough to drink and drive well then my brother that is a dumbshit move. If you decide to drink and drive you better be ready to die.
have you ever got behind the wheel of a car with any alcohol in your system?
NOPE! i'm proud to say... i've never ever ever driven a car after having even a sip of beer or any booze. i'm very aware of what i do in that sense because i DO have the utmost respect for people in general. Believe that as it's 100% truth.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
This one is a heartbreaker, but yes... if your stupid enough to drink and drive well then my brother that is a dumbshit move. If you decide to drink and drive you better be ready to die.
have you ever got behind the wheel of a car with any alcohol in your system?
NOPE! i'm proud to say... i've never ever ever driven a car after having even a sip of beer or any booze. i'm very aware of what i do in that sense because i DO have the utmost respect for people in general. Believe that as it's 100% truth.
Now then, let's say your brother/father/best friend was mentally ill - got fucked up in Vietnam/Iraq/Afganistan. And you found out they somehow "accidentally" murdered an old lady in her home over some $20 bit of jewelry after a breakin, because they were psychotic or delusional, or whatever you want to call it. Basically fucked up. You would really hope they could get help right? Hopefully locked up in treatment for a long, long time and cured? Hell, then they could even serve time after that. And this is what the D.A. tells you will happen when you tell them you may know something about the murder. So with a heavy heart you testify against your brother/father/best friend. Then some ambitious prosecutor flips things around and goes for murder 1. You were blindsided. It's an open and shut case. Your testimony sent them to the electric chair. How fucked up would you feel? How would you look your sister/mother/best friend's mother in the eye? Would you want to kill yourself?
Most importantly, if you knew the outcome and had to do it all over again, would you still go ahead and inform the police?
This happened. The man executed was the father of my brother's ex. He was a Vietnam vet. His brother turned him in. I'm sure it is already happening all over again with Iraq vets. I doubt it is creating a safer or more just society.
What if your daughter (Or your wife? Or anyone you love?) got drunk and accidentally drove her car into a bunch of people? Would you be fine with the rest of us wanting to "exterminate" her for her heinous behavior?
This one is a heartbreaker, but yes... if your stupid enough to drink and drive well then my brother that is a dumbshit move. If you decide to drink and drive you better be ready to die.
have you ever got behind the wheel of a car with any alcohol in your system?
NOPE! i'm proud to say... i've never ever ever driven a car after having even a sip of beer or any booze. i'm very aware of what i do in that sense because i DO have the utmost respect for people in general. Believe that as it's 100% truth.
Same here, its a simple rule to live by :-
DRINK OR DRIVE [/b]
very true, but I'm often surprised at the way people are able to seperate themselves and their practices of having a few drinks and leaving the bar/ club from "those" people that are drunk drivers.
I'm happy that both of you do this and I hope you both teach this message to others
Well, can anyone justify just ONE state sponsored execution of an innocent person?
Didnt think so.
Can you name one??
How about 20 wrongful capital convictions?
Joseph Burrows, Perry Cobb, Rolando Cruz, Gary Gauger, Alejandro Hernandez, Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard, Verneal Jimerson, Ronald Jones, Carl Lawson, George Lettrich, Steven Manning, Lloyd Eldon Miller, Jr., Leroy Orange, Aaron Patterson, Anthony Porter, Steven Smith, Gordon Steidl, Darby Tillis and Dennis Williams.
Tell us how it doesn't matter that Joseph Burrows, Perry Cobb, Rolando Cruz, Gary Gauger, Alejandro Hernandez, Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard, Verneal Jimerson, Ronald Jones, Carl Lawson, George Lettrich, Steven Manning, Lloyd Eldon Miller, Jr., Leroy Orange, Aaron Patterson, Anthony Porter, Steven Smith, Gordon Steidl, Darby Tillis and Dennis Williams were convicted even though they were later found not guilty.
Tell us how Joseph Burrows, Perry Cobb, Rolando Cruz, Gary Gauger, Alejandro Hernandez, Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard, Verneal Jimerson, Ronald Jones, Carl Lawson, George Lettrich, Steven Manning, Lloyd Eldon Miller, Jr., Leroy Orange, Aaron Patterson, Anthony Porter, Steven Smith, Gordon Steidl, Darby Tillis and Dennis Williams deserved to be exterminated, even though they weren't.
Case by case, please:
Joseph Burrows: Perry Cobb: Rolando Cruz: Gary Gauger: Alejandro Hernandez: Madison Hobley: Stanley Howard: Verneal Jimerson: Ronald Jones: Carl Lawson: George Lettrich: Steven Manning: Lloyd Eldon Miller, Jr.: Leroy Orange: Aaron Patterson: Anthony Porter: Steven Smith: Gordon Steidl: Darby Tillis: Dennis Williams:
very true, but I'm often surprised at the way people are able to seperate themselves and their practices of having a few drinks and leaving the bar/ club from "those" people that are drunk drivers.
Drink driving is inexcusable under any circumstances, the law and it's penalties should be changed to reflect this, as in my view there is no such thing as an acceptable amount of alcohol to have in your system when driving as your reactions are affected from the first[/b] drink.
I'm happy that both of you do this and I hope you both teach this message to others Believe me I have and would again be the first to speak up if someone I knew was going to attempt to drive after drinking
Well, can anyone justify just ONE state sponsored execution of an innocent person?
Didnt think so.
Can you name one??
Well, Roy Stewart is one of the most known, there is a shit ton of evidence that Carlos Deluna is innocent....a few, luckily have been released from Death Row, like, Kerry Max Cook...they wouldnt have if it wasnt for all "that bullshit beauracacy and appeals crap"...I mean we would have been much better off if they were just walked to the chamber after the sentencing, right...I mean that is what folks are advocating on here, right, a streamlining of the justice system?
The story was about the imbalance of justice in our society.
Would you leave your wife or daughter in the hands of an overworked underpaid uninterested public defender or would you get the best attorney you could? What if you could not afford any attorney at all?
The people who end up on death row did not have good attorneys 99%* of the time. That is the real crime.
*Like most statistics I just made this one up.
This is why you and I rarely agree on social issues...
You look at a crime and see the perpertrator as a victim.
I look the same crime and see the perpertrator as a criminal.
Drink driving is inexcusable under any circumstances, the law should be changed to reflect this, as in my view there is no such thing as an acceptable amount of alcohol to have in your system when driving as your reactions are affected from the first[/b] drink.
Many beverages contain trace amounts of ethyl alcohol, including orange juice. You have to draw the line somewhere. And what about other impairments, such as cell phone use?
"June 29, 2006 -- Three years after the preliminary results first were presented at a scientific meeting and drew wide attention, University of Utah psychologists have published a study showing that motorists who talk on handheld or hands-free cellular phones are as impaired as drunken drivers.[/b]"
Seriously yeah!! driving on the phone is pretty crazy. That's one thing i am guilty of before the hand's free was so popular. Now I drive by people who are in deep conversations and watch them pay no attention at all to the road.
Drink driving is inexcusable under any circumstances, the law should be changed to reflect this, as in my view there is no such thing as an acceptable amount of alcohol to have in your system when driving as your reactions are affected from the first[/b] drink.
Many beverages contain trace amounts of ethyl alcohol, including orange juice. You have to draw the line somewhere. And what about other impairments, such as cell phone use?
"June 29, 2006 -- Three years after the preliminary results first were presented at a scientific meeting and drew wide attention, University of Utah psychologists have published a study showing that motorists who talk on handheld or hands-free cellular phones are as impaired as drunken drivers.[/b]"
Well, can anyone justify just ONE state sponsored execution of an innocent person?
Didnt think so.
Can you name one??
Well, Roy Stewart is one of the most known, there is a shit ton of evidence that Carlos Deluna is innocent....a few, luckily have been released from Death Row, like, Kerry Max Cook...they wouldnt have if it wasnt for all "that bullshit beauracacy and appeals crap"...I mean we would have been much better off if they were just walked to the chamber after the sentencing, right...I mean that is what folks are advocating on here, right, a streamlining of the justice system?
I'm familar with the Cook case being here in Texas and yes, he was innocent. In his case our system, albeit late, worked.
I know of 5 other cases where Death Row prisoners were found innocent and released.
I'm for more checks and balances, increased use of DNA and the execution of those found guilty of premeditated, first degree murder beyond a shadow of a doubt.
If you think it's impossible to find such an outcome, you might as well throw the whole Justice system away.
Let me ask you this......If there was a video showing the undisputable facts of a murder, would you THEN be for the Death Penalty??
I didn't think so....and this is why the debate is moot.
The story was about the imbalance of justice in our society.
Would you leave your wife or daughter in the hands of an overworked underpaid uninterested public defender or would you get the best attorney you could? What if you could not afford any attorney at all?
The people who end up on death row did not have good attorneys 99%* of the time. That is the real crime.
*Like most statistics I just made this one up.
This is why you and I rarely agree on social issues...
You look at a crime and see the perpertrator as a victim.
I look the same crime and see the perpertrator as a criminal.
Your talking about social issues. I am talking about our system of government.
You justify a system that rewards the rich who can afford lawyers, and punishes the poor who can't because those who can't are criminals?
Are am far less concerned about cirminals than I am about flaws in our system.
Comments
"Kill him now" is what happens to most cop killers when they get caught by the police. Too many witnesses at this Arby's I guess.
Now that he has been caught none of your justifications stand. Whether he gets a death sentence or life in jail he; "be shipped back to jail??? charged with another crime??? hold up the court with bullshit like this and waste more time... money.. ect ect ect"
This conversation is of course moot. He (allegedly) killed a cop in Utah, he will be sentenced to death. Even his right wing political views wont save him now.
And yet we teach creationism in public schools in Kansas, outlaw gay marriage, elect politicians based on religious views...
You might not like it, but we are a Christian nation with Christian leaders. "Separation of church and state" does not affect the countless ways that Christian values shape out society.
There is no question that I would face the reality of them being punished for their crime.
No one has ever been executed for drunk driving or killing anyone while behind the wheel so the comparison is weak at best.
The moral I take away from your friends story is the same one I've spent 21 years trying to teach my children.
There are consequences for everything you do, and if you go looking for trouble, you'll find it every time.
seems to be all you understand as well etc etc (sorry, pet peeve of mine)
Oh yeah, I forgot, according to you stoning, firing squad, chair, is all a part of life so why not just do it?
It's not an accident when you kill someone through drunk driving...
If viewed with a sympathetic eye you could call it manslaughter, however it's the same as murder in my opinion.
have you ever got behind the wheel of a car with any alcohol in your system?
Ok here's a fair deal, nobody gets the death penalty, but everyone has to wear this man in the iron mask style.
The story was about the imbalance of justice in our society.
Would you leave your wife or daughter in the hands of an overworked underpaid uninterested public defender or would you get the best attorney you could? What if you could not afford any attorney at all?
The people who end up on death row did not have good attorneys 99%* of the time. That is the real crime.
*Like most statistics I just made this one up.
Too late....
Fair enough. I guess I'm so used to living in a state that laughs at Creationism, has legal gay marriage, and actively votes against politicians who lean on their religion. I forget how backward parts of this country are. At least, until election time rolls around. Then, it's hard to ignore.
NOPE! i'm proud to say... i've never ever ever driven a car after having even a sip of beer or any booze. i'm very aware of what i do in that sense because i DO have the utmost respect for people in general. Believe that as it's 100% truth.
Didnt think so.
Same here, its a simple rule to live by :-
DRINK OR DRIVE [/b]
Can you name one??
WTF I KEEP TELLING PEOPLE I GAVE THAT SHIT UP!
Now then, let's say your brother/father/best friend was mentally ill - got fucked up in Vietnam/Iraq/Afganistan. And you found out they somehow "accidentally" murdered an old lady in her home over some $20 bit of jewelry after a breakin, because they were psychotic or delusional, or whatever you want to call it. Basically fucked up. You would really hope they could get help right? Hopefully locked up in treatment for a long, long time and cured? Hell, then they could even serve time after that. And this is what the D.A. tells you will happen when you tell them you may know something about the murder. So with a heavy heart you testify against your brother/father/best friend. Then some ambitious prosecutor flips things around and goes for murder 1. You were blindsided. It's an open and shut case. Your testimony sent them to the electric chair. How fucked up would you feel? How would you look your sister/mother/best friend's mother in the eye? Would you want to kill yourself?
Most importantly, if you knew the outcome and had to do it all over again, would you still go ahead and inform the police?
This happened. The man executed was the father of my brother's ex. He was a Vietnam vet. His brother turned him in. I'm sure it is already happening all over again with Iraq vets. I doubt it is creating a safer or more just society.
-"Put them in the iron maiden."
"Iron Maiden? Excellent!"
-"Execute them!"
"Bogus!"
very true, but I'm often surprised at the way people are able to seperate themselves and their practices of having a few drinks and leaving the bar/ club from "those" people that are drunk drivers.
I'm happy that both of you do this and I hope you both teach this message to others
How about 20 wrongful capital convictions?
Joseph Burrows, Perry Cobb, Rolando Cruz, Gary Gauger, Alejandro Hernandez, Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard, Verneal Jimerson, Ronald Jones, Carl Lawson, George Lettrich, Steven Manning, Lloyd Eldon Miller, Jr., Leroy Orange, Aaron Patterson, Anthony Porter, Steven Smith, Gordon Steidl, Darby Tillis and Dennis Williams.
Tell us how it doesn't matter that Joseph Burrows, Perry Cobb, Rolando Cruz, Gary Gauger, Alejandro Hernandez, Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard, Verneal Jimerson, Ronald Jones, Carl Lawson, George Lettrich, Steven Manning, Lloyd Eldon Miller, Jr., Leroy Orange, Aaron Patterson, Anthony Porter, Steven Smith, Gordon Steidl, Darby Tillis and Dennis Williams were convicted even though they were later found not guilty.
Tell us how Joseph Burrows, Perry Cobb, Rolando Cruz, Gary Gauger, Alejandro Hernandez, Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard, Verneal Jimerson, Ronald Jones, Carl Lawson, George Lettrich, Steven Manning, Lloyd Eldon Miller, Jr., Leroy Orange, Aaron Patterson, Anthony Porter, Steven Smith, Gordon Steidl, Darby Tillis and Dennis Williams deserved to be exterminated, even though they weren't.
Case by case, please:
Joseph Burrows:
Perry Cobb:
Rolando Cruz:
Gary Gauger:
Alejandro Hernandez:
Madison Hobley:
Stanley Howard:
Verneal Jimerson:
Ronald Jones:
Carl Lawson:
George Lettrich:
Steven Manning:
Lloyd Eldon Miller, Jr.:
Leroy Orange:
Aaron Patterson:
Anthony Porter:
Steven Smith:
Gordon Steidl:
Darby Tillis:
Dennis Williams:
Drink driving is inexcusable under any circumstances, the law and it's penalties should be changed to reflect this, as in my view there is no such thing as an acceptable amount of alcohol to have in your system when driving as your reactions are affected from the first[/b] drink.
I'm happy that both of you do this and I hope you both teach this message to others
Believe me I have and would again be the first to speak up if someone I knew was going to attempt to drive after drinking
Well, Roy Stewart is one of the most known, there is a shit ton of evidence that Carlos Deluna is innocent....a few, luckily have been released from Death Row, like, Kerry Max Cook...they wouldnt have if it wasnt for all "that bullshit beauracacy and appeals crap"...I mean we would have been much better off if they were just walked to the chamber after the sentencing, right...I mean that is what folks are advocating on here, right, a streamlining of the justice system?
This is why you and I rarely agree on social issues...
You look at a crime and see the perpertrator as a victim.
I look the same crime and see the perpertrator as a criminal.
Many beverages contain trace amounts of ethyl alcohol, including orange juice. You have to draw the line somewhere. And what about other impairments, such as cell phone use?
"June 29, 2006 -- Three years after the preliminary results first were presented at a scientific meeting and drew wide attention, University of Utah psychologists have published a study showing that motorists who talk on handheld or hands-free cellular phones are as impaired as drunken drivers.[/b]"
Why you shouldn't drive while talking on your cell phone, you self-centered prick.
Shame on me!!!
It's illegal drive while using a mobile phone here in the UK unless it is mounted in a hands-free unit.
You get an automatic ??60/$120 fine if caught and 3 penalty points which stay on your license for 3 years and affect your insurance premiums.
If you get a total of 12 points at any time for any offences you then get banned from driving.
VS.
I'm curious. Do you prefer ovens or camps?
I know of 5 other cases where Death Row prisoners were found innocent and released.
I'm for more checks and balances, increased use of DNA and the execution of those found guilty of premeditated, first degree murder beyond a shadow of a doubt.
If you think it's impossible to find such an outcome, you might as well throw the whole Justice system away.
Let me ask you this......If there was a video showing the undisputable facts of a murder, would you THEN be for the Death Penalty??
I didn't think so....and this is why the debate is moot.
Your talking about social issues. I am talking about our system of government.
You justify a system that rewards the rich who can afford lawyers, and punishes the poor who can't because those who can't are criminals?
Are am far less concerned about cirminals than I am about flaws in our system.
I can't imagine this solves the problem.
It's not that one of your hands is occupied, it's that you're distracted.